Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - to 20 Dec 2001 (#2001-1) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 21/12/2001, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 16 messages totalling 634 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. elrond' wife is gone (3) 2. OT: One Film to Rule Them All (13) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:56:51 +0100 From: Wizards Shopper Subject: elrond' wife is gone sorry to say that but Elrond's wife was Galadriel and Celeborn's daughter = Celebriant and she died (or so i read) during the third age in an orc ambu= sh in the misty mountains. That's why their two sons eladan and elrohir we= re soo eager to avenge their mother. Yet she might have left middle earth being only gravely wounded (tell me s= o if you are sure of this) i don't remember well that part.I really need t= o read the whole thing again.I think this was in the appendix or in the bo= ok of lost tales 2 or 3. thib Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177 homepage www.mystara.fr.st join me at thibsylv=40club-internet.fr or at clenarius=40hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:27:04 +0100 From: Wizards Shopper Subject: elrond' wife is gone sorry to come back on my own writtings but as for tolkien litterature , i = like to be strait Celebrian in LOTR = A true elda lady, Celebrian is the only child of Celeborn and Galadriel, t= he wife of Elrond, and the mother of Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen Evenstar. = Tragically, Celebrian's travelling party was ambushed on a trip from Imlad= ris to Lorien and overwhelmed by orcs of the misty mountains. Though she w= as rescued by her sons and healed of poisoned wounds by Elrond, she suffer= edso that she became weary of middle-earth and sailed over the Sea within = the year. Celebrian was gentle, peaceful, kind and quiet. Naturally, due to her lineage she is noble in bearing, tall(6'5=22), and blonde. But = she does not care for things of violence: weapons or armour or war. Nor do= es she carry herself with the arrogance or pride of so many in her family.= Rather she is meek and unobtrusive. She delights in children. hearth and = home, family, gardens, and things of quiet beauty. Often in the evenings, = she strolls the meads or swims the ponds and streams of blessed Imladris. thib Thibault Sarlat ICQ 16622177 homepage www.mystara.fr.st join me at thibsylv=40club-internet.fr or at clenarius=40hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:31:44 -0500 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: elrond' wife is gone Wizards Shopper wrote: > sorry to say that but Elrond's wife was Galadriel and Celeborn's daughter Celebriant and she died (or so i read) during the third age in an orc ambush in the misty mountains. > Yet she might have left middle earth being only gravely wounded (tell me so if you are sure of this) i don't remember well that part. IIRC, Elrond's wife was captured and wounded in an orc attack, then rescued by her sons, and healed by Elrond. However, she lost interest in the Middle Earth, and left. Elrond left at the end of the LotR event, of course, but his sons remained at Imladris for some time with the last remnants of the Noldor (I suppose they left after Arwen's death, but I don't think it is ever said). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:53:40 +0200 From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Re: OT: One Film to Rule Them All Sometimes it is cool to live in an "early" timezone, we Finnish had to wait a few hours less for the event of this era. I am still a bit baffled by the experience. In many ways it was much better that expected, especially the fact that Jackson had the courage and vision to reassemble a very un-cinematic story into a movie script. (By un-cinematic I mean that LOTR doesn't have anything of the dramatic structure needed on stage or on screen.) Cool. The changes, omissions and additions didn't disturb me, even though I substituted breast milk with LOTR very early on... (Ok, there are some stupid things, but that's trivia.) spoiling----------- - - - - Still, you may call me old-fashioned, but I simply can't see the point in over-extended battle scenes. The battle in the Tomb of Balin simply didn't work, and it spoiled my mood for some time (until I saw the magnificient lines of pillars stretching to infinity... wow). The mockery of an olog should have been dropped, it was too much of H. potter for my taste. The battle at Rauros falls suffered from this too, with the exception of Boromir's fall - that they handled beautifully, although they stumbled a bit with the dying dialogue. The siege of Barad-Dur was the only really good battle scene. I really liked the effect of Sauron's personal combat, him "mowing" through enemies, and the orcs falling like hay after his fall. (Brought the last battle of Silmarillion to my mind...) Ville ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:03:38 -0500 From: Mike Donnelly Jr Subject: Re: OT: One Film to Rule Them All David Knott wrote: > From: "Christopher M Cherrington" > > > Way off topic, Elrond was the son of Earendil and Elwing and chose to stay > > of the first born, his brothers did not, and they became the kings of men > > and the forefathers of Aragorn (who in turn marries his aunt, Arwen ;) > > Elrond had only one brother, Elros, who was the ancestor of all of > the Numenoreans and Dunedain. Still, he must have been greatly > grieved when he left Middle Earth, as all three of his children (his > twin sons as well as Arwen) stayed behind, so he had only his wife > to comfort him in the Undying Lands. Not so. Only Arwen chose a mortal existence with Aragorn in the books. The brothers followed their father (and mother) back to uttermost West. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:25:43 -0500 From: Mike Donnelly Jr Subject: Re: OT: One Film to Rule Them All I think my favorite exchange in the entire movie is an old D&D gag. The two halflings draw the attention of the Orks allowing for their comrades to escape. "It's working, it's working!!!" "I know it's working! Keep running!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:40:54 +0200 From: Solmyr Subject: Re: OT: One Film to Rule Them All The Stalker wrote: > > Yes, I missed that too, but it seems to me it was changed because > Gandalf's "fate" in Moria was foreshadowed. In the book he advices it, but > in the film he doesn't because, as Saruman puts it, he is *afraid* of > Moria! And when he falls, we see hoplessness and defeat in his eyes! And > that scene... It just stays with you somehow... > Personally I found it odd that it was Frodo who guessed the riddle to open the gate of Moria, when in the book it was Gandalf himself. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:57:46 +0200 From: Solmyr Subject: Re: OT: One Film to Rule Them All Wizards Shopper wrote: > > The other plot change that I didn't like was what they did with Saruman. In > the film he comes right out and asks Gandalf to join him in helping Sauron. > He seems to be more of Sauron's lieutenant than someone chasing after the One > Ring for himself. I'll be interested in seeing how this is handled in the > next film. > Saruman was indeed ensnared and corrupted by Sauron, through his use of the palantir. I don't remember whether this was actually stated in the books, and if so at which point in the story. -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:59:40 +0200 From: Solmyr Subject: Re: OT: One Film to Rule Them All SteelAngel wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Geoff Gander wrote: > > > flame war. Maybe some of the ideas raised in the movie could be applied > > to Mystara...we'll see. > > Every landscape in that movie was directly ripped from how I have always > pictured Mystara, from the Five Shires to Alfheim to the Broken Lands. > I've heard it said that the Known World of Mystara (not all the planet, just the Glantri-Thyatis area) is kinda Middle Earth upside down, geographically speaking. I.e. Rockhome is Moria, Alfheim is Lothlorien, Lake Amsorak is Sea of Rhun, Glantri is Mordor, etc. :) -- ****************** Aleksei Andrievski aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:19:12 -0600 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: OT: One Film to Rule Them All Actually the Known World is based on real world geomgraphy. When a new area needed to be developed they just took a map and did a fantastic overlay of it, changed names, and did a bit of reorganization of terrain features to suit the setting. At least this is what Bruce Heard claimed in the Known World Grimoire. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Solmyr" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] OT: One Film to Rule Them All > SteelAngel wrote: > > > > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Geoff Gander wrote: > > > > > flame war. Maybe some of the ideas raised in the movie could be applied > > > to Mystara...we'll see. > > > > Every landscape in that movie was directly ripped from how I have always > > pictured Mystara, from the Five Shires to Alfheim to the Broken Lands. > > > I've heard it said that the Known World of Mystara (not all the planet, > just the Glantri-Thyatis area) is kinda Middle Earth upside down, > geographically speaking. I.e. Rockhome is Moria, Alfheim is Lothlorien, > Lake Amsorak is Sea of Rhun, Glantri is Mordor, etc. :) > > -- > ****************** > Aleksei Andrievski > aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star > solmyr@kolumbus.fi > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:24:35 -0600 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: OT: One Film to Rule Them All Geomgraphy?! Sigh. ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Hrabovsky" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] OT: One Film to Rule Them All > Actually the Known World is based on real world geomgraphy. When a new area > needed to be developed they just took a map and did a fantastic overlay of > it, changed names, and did a bit of reorganization of terrain features to > suit the setting. > > At least this is what Bruce Heard claimed in the Known World Grimoire. > > George > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Solmyr" > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:59 AM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] OT: One Film to Rule Them All > > > > SteelAngel wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Geoff Gander wrote: > > > > > > > flame war. Maybe some of the ideas raised in the movie could be > applied > > > > to Mystara...we'll see. > > > > > > Every landscape in that movie was directly ripped from how I have always > > > pictured Mystara, from the Five Shires to Alfheim to the Broken Lands. > > > > > I've heard it said that the Known World of Mystara (not all the planet, > > just the Glantri-Thyatis area) is kinda Middle Earth upside down, > > geographically speaking. I.e. Rockhome is Moria, Alfheim is Lothlorien, > > Lake Amsorak is Sea of Rhun, Glantri is Mordor, etc. :) > > > > -- > > ****************** > > Aleksei Andrievski > > aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star > > solmyr@kolumbus.fi > > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:04:20 -0800 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: OT: One Film to Rule Them All > Personally I found it odd that it was Frodo who > guessed the riddle to > open the gate of Moria, when in the book it was > Gandalf himself. I think that they are trying to "play" up the frodo character. I mean in the book he is not really that special in the way that a lead character ina movie is and he is too quietly brave for a movie. I thought that was ok, as it is kind of established that hobbits are good at riddles. I however missed the dialoge that goes with it from Legolas and Glimli. "so on the gates of your greatest city you write speak friend and enter, and all you have to do is say 'friend', and enter" "those were better days" What is still puzzleing me is it is a 3 hour movie that covers less then the animated version yet misses so many of the things that were so good in the animated version. I shall have to sit down and watch them both again... Sombody said this is what the D&D movie should have been, I say damn straight, it looks like he got copies of the Gaz's (which are heavily influenced by tolken) and translated bits back into it's source. It seems almost as if it has been re-written with the D&D system and characters as more how things would happen in roll playing. One can't solve the puzzle but the other can as he has different skills. And the characters wipe the floor with orc's left right and centre as high level PC's would. And just as high level Characters it takes several arrows to kill one but an orc will drop on the first. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:02:00 -0500 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: OT: One Film to Rule Them All On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Solmyr wrote: > Glantri is Mordor, etc. :) An thus begins a whole new flame war :D Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:40:52 +0100 From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: OT: One Film to Rule Them All i do agree with your point of view about the silmarillion. The look of Sauron is taken from the one Melkor had (they did some mixing there), with its mace called "Grond.". As for sauron in 1600 when he forged the one ring, he still could bear a beautiful look since he was still "anatar" and had just decieved the elves of eregion... I did not see time passed, but i was shocked to see all the liberties the director took. I know that a novel is very different in term of narrative structure than a movie, but to me he has gone too far... I stop here or i 'll start a flaming debate and our beloved ogre "Shrek" won't us to do such useless thing. good night everyone. Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st Join me at: thibsylv@club-internet.fr;thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr;clenarius@hotmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ville V Lahde" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] OT: One Film to Rule Them All > Sometimes it is cool to live in an "early" timezone, we Finnish had to > wait a few hours less for the event of this era. I am still a bit baffled > by the experience. In many ways it was much better that expected, > especially the fact that Jackson had the courage and vision to reassemble > a very un-cinematic story into a movie script. (By un-cinematic I mean > that LOTR doesn't have anything of the dramatic structure needed on stage > or on screen.) Cool. The changes, omissions and additions didn't disturb > me, even though I substituted breast milk with LOTR very early on... (Ok, > there are some stupid things, but that's trivia.) > > spoiling----------- > - > - > - > - > Still, you may call me old-fashioned, but I simply can't see the point in > over-extended battle scenes. The battle in the Tomb of Balin simply didn't > work, and it spoiled my mood for some time (until I saw the magnificient > lines of pillars stretching to infinity... wow). The mockery of an olog > should have been dropped, it was too much of H. potter for my taste. The > battle at Rauros falls suffered from this too, with the exception of > Boromir's fall - that they handled beautifully, although they stumbled a > bit with the dying dialogue. > > The siege of Barad-Dur was the only really good battle scene. I really > liked the effect of Sauron's personal combat, him "mowing" through > enemies, and the orcs falling like hay after his fall. (Brought the last > battle of Silmarillion to my mind...) > > Ville > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:10:21 EST From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: OT: One Film to Rule Them All In a message dated 12/20/2001 12:06:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, solmyr@KOLUMBUS.FI writes: > Saruman was indeed ensnared and corrupted by Sauron, through his use of > the palantir. I don't remember whether this was actually stated in the > books, and if so at which point in the story. > > Yep, but Saruman wasn't outright working for Sauron in the novel. I *think* that Saruman's proposition to Gandalf in the novel was for the two of them to join Sauron's side and then overthrow him in the future. Saruman definitely wanted the Ring of Power for himself (thus he sends his uruk-hai off to capture hobbits and return with them to Orthanc). Unless I missed something in the movie, Saruman pretty much tells Gandalf he can either join with Sauron (and himself) or be held prisoner atop Orthanc for the rest of his days. There's no offer of joining forces to combat the greater evil; to those who've never read the book, the movie seems to portray Saruman as just another one of Sauron's evil minions. And that's selling his character short...as well as posing some interesting questions about how the director's going to handle him in the next movie. Other than a few whiny complaints though, I think Peter Jackson did a great job with the film. He did a hell of a lot more things right than wrong. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 02:00:24 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: OT: One Film to Rule Them All Well, just came back from late-session LoTR and well, I find kinda divided about the movie... somebody else in the list pointed how the movie can be 3 hours long and cover quite less than the 70s animation movie, well, I think it all comes from quite a strange montage technique: the action of the movie tends to focus on close-ups of characters (even quite a few of the combat scenes, excepting for the initial battle do so) and then gets split by big landscape scenes with no dialogue or action (most of them are travel sequences and establishing shots of places). This tends to make the location sections a bit unbalanced, as it happens in Rivendell and especially Lothlorien, which was a big disappointment for me, the grandeur of the places is presented in big establishing shots with music and no plot development, and the real action is rendered through close-ups on characters, which are thus kinda cut-off from the magic of the environment. All in all, that gets to make the movie a bit claustrophobic and the big scenarios feel a bit isolated (as in a music video, and sorry Enya fans, but soundtrack was a bit disappointing for me too, I expected something more ellaborate and original, given the big Tolkienesque interest in song and music, soundtrack was just easy and at times too corny IMHO). Interestingly enough, my favorite sections are Moria and Isengard, where the claustrophobic shooting works really well with the environment, and the feeling of verticality is greatly achieved (thumbs up for the Balrog too, it's really "shadow and fire"). That's for the visual aspect, the screenplay is very good, though I would not have regretted the movie being 15 minutes longer (or clipped from other sections, like the longish establishing shots) in order to present the barrow wight, tom and, in general, a bigger tension build-up in the flight from the Shire, which is resolved a bit too quickly. Elves killed me a bit too, more than Tolkien they seemed San Diego joggers; the physical beauty aspect was well rendered, but I could not feel the magic musical almost-ethereal charm that you get in the books (Legolas's knife-fighting was cool, though, almost dancing), and Galadriel feels kinda aloof, something quite away from the novel too. On the other hand, orcs are great! all their irregular and scary shapes give you the feeling of hideous evil mutations for sure. Shire athmosphere is really nice too. The acting was A, too, very good for the average expected in sci-fi fantasy movies. Frodo is especially nice, his gloominess build-up mirrors the novel very aptly. Like with the music, though, I missed some deeper linguistic tribute to Tolkien, with the use of different speech accents (it's done with the hobbits, somewhat), like elves using a more archaic English when speaking English/Westron. All in all, quite good movie, though not a big impact to me. I think that parts 2 and 3 will be better, as the cinematography and montage seem more suited for big scenes (like Bara-dur battle and Isengard filming) such as the mass battles in Two Towers and Return of the King. Andrés ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - to 20 Dec 2001 (#2001-1) ***************************************************************