Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 3 Nov 2001 to 4 Nov 2001 (#2001-304) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 05/11/2001, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 17 messages totalling 621 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[MYSTARA]_Arcana_Mystara:_Astronomy_and_Astrology_(1/4) ?= 2. Ylaruam: Center of Mystaran Astronomy (9) 3. Arcana Mystara: Astronomy and Astrology (4/4) 4. Rob Kuntz almost got an entry into the D&D/Mystara world 5. Rob Kuntz almost got an entry into the D&D/Mystaraworld 6. [MYSTARA] Arcana Mystara: Astronomy and Astrology (1/4) 7. [MYSTARA] Arcana Mystara: Astronomy andAstrology (1/4) 8. OT Physics quotes etc. was Re: [MYSTARA] Ylaruam: Center of Mystaran Astronomy 9. The Division of the Five - Part IV ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 09:51:45 +0100 From: =?utf-8?Q?Agathokles?= Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[MYSTARA]_Arcana_Mystara:_Astronomy_and_Astrology_(1/4)?= PiBJcyBpdCB3b3J0aCBjb25zaWRlcmluZyB0aGUgbmF0aW9ucyBvZiB0aGUgU2F2YWdlIENv YXN0PyAgQXBhcnQgZnJvbSB0aGUgdHdvDQo+IHNlYSBwb3dlcnMsIHdoYXQgYWJvdXQgdGhl IEVuZHVrcz8gIFdpdGggdGhlIGFuY2llbnQgRW5kdWsgc3RhciBkZXZpY2VzDQo+IGxpdHRl cmVkIGFsbCBvdmVyIE5pbW11ci4NCg0KU3VyZSwgZXZlbiB0aG91Z2ggdGhleSBoYXZlIGxv c3QgdGhlaXIgZGV2aWNlcywgdGhleSB3b3VsZCBzdGlsbCBiZSBza2lsbGVkIGFzdHJvbm9t ZXJzLiBIb3dldmVyLCBJIGRvdWJ0IHRoZXkgaGF2ZSB3aXphcmRseSBhc3Ryb25vbWVycy9h c3Ryb2xvZ2Vycy4gVGhlaXIgYXN0cm9ub21pYyBrbm93bGVkZ2Ugd291bGQgYmUgaGVsZCBi eSB0aGUgcHJpZXN0cyBvZiBJeGlvbi4gT2YgY291cnNlLCB0aGV5J2QgaGF2ZSBtb3JlIGtu b3dsZWRnZSBhYm91dCB0aGUgTXlzdGFyYW4gU3VuIHRoYW4gbW9zdCBvdGhlciBuYXRpb25z Lg0KDQpUaGUgb3RoZXIgU2F2YWdlIENvYXN0IG5hdGlvbnMgYXJlIG5vdCBlbm91Z2ggc2No b2xhcmx5IHRvIGhhdmUgYXN0cm9ub21pYy9hc3Ryb2xvZ2ljIHNjaG9vbHMuDQotLSANCg0K R2lhbXBhb2xvIEFnb3N0YQoKCglHaWFtcGFvbG8gQWdvc3RhCgphZ2F0aG9rbGVzQGxpYmVy by5pdAphZ29zdGFAZWxldC5wb2xpbWkuaXQKaHR0cDovL2RpZ2lsYW5kZXIuaW9sLml0L2Fn YXRob2tsZXMvaW5kZXguaHRt ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 11:11:27 +0100 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: Ylaruam: Center of Mystaran Astronomy > 1. Do the Ylari also lead in the superstitious/occult craft of astrology? Or > do they focus mainly on scientific astronomy? I think that Al-Kalim would prevent Ylari from superstitions like astrology. They would probably be very suspicious of astrology (thinking that the way of the Immortals may be understood through star-watching...hmmm....it should be surely opposed by the Kin, as an example). > My idea would be that while the study of astronomy became focused, the study > of astrology became fragmented and went underground. It would be found in > several nations (including Ylaruam), but would remain an arcane/occult art. Agreed. But the astronomers of Ylaruam should be opposed to the astrologists, there shouldn't be crossovers between the two groups. On the other hand, in other nations this could be possible (especially Alphatia and Karameikos). Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:13:51 +0100 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: Arcana Mystara: Astronomy and Astrology (4/4) "Francisco V. Navarro V" wrote: > Arcana Mystara: Mystaran Astrology > Part II > By Kit Navarro Eccellent work. Really really good. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis (Basilisk. 8-) ) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 15:42:32 -0000 From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Ylaruam: Center of Mystaran Astronomy ----- Original Message ----- From: "la Volpe" To: Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Ylaruam: Center of Mystaran Astronomy > I think that Al-Kalim would prevent Ylari from superstitions like astrology. > They > would probably be very suspicious of astrology (thinking that the way of the > Immortals may be understood through star-watching...hmmm....it should be > surely opposed by the Kin, as an example). > OTOH though if Mystaran astrology does actually work then it's not merely a superstition so they would embrace it along with other sciences. The kin would actually be more in favour of it it it was superstition than if it was true IMO since it's easy for a despot to blame the ills that befall them on the stars. The adventuring fun to be had because the kin believe "the stars are right" and try to sieze power again can also not be underrated > Agreed. But the astronomers of Ylaruam should be opposed to the astrologists, > there shouldn't be crossovers between the two groups. On the other hand, > in other nations this could be possible (especially Alphatia and Karameikos). > Only if Astrology is totally false would this happen IMO and, since Immortals can send portents such as comets which astronomers will NOT be able to predict, on Mystara it isn't. Much more fun for them to violently disagree, we're talking Ylari here after all, with those whose theories are almost the same. Think of the academics and politicians who are totally opposed to any variation of their own pet theories for example. Many would call all others liars, thieves, charlatans, and heretics as well as worse. The Astronomers themselves could be split into two camps, rather like Quantum Mechanics was/is, theorists and experimenters. Theorists could sit with their papers and tweak ideas only when the fact that it bears no relationship to what's actually going on (the modelling of the solar system in the 16th century being a good example), whilst experimenters, usually the most powerful mages and clerics, would actually go and see what's going on. However the IIrc Rutherford (the experimental physicist) was somewhat annoyed when the theorists correctly predicted exactly how a new particle would behave BEFORE it had been discovered. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:43:05 -0500 From: Jeff Daly Subject: Re: Rob Kuntz almost got an entry into the D&D/Mystara world What an inappropriate comment! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Diehm" To: Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 11:16 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Rob Kuntz almost got an entry into the D&D/Mystara world > What an unfortunate name! > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 18:02:05 +0100 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: Ylaruam: Center of Mystaran Astronomy > la Volpe > said: > I think that Al-Kalim would prevent Ylari from superstitions like > astrology. They would probably be very suspicious of astrology (thinking that > the way of the Immortals may be understood through star-watching...hmmm....it > should be surely opposed by the Kin, as an example). > > Paul G. Dooley > answered: > OTOH though if Mystaran astrology does actually work then it's not > merely a superstition so they would embrace it along with other sciences. Well, this probably depends on each one's campaign. Although anything could be possible with magic, astrology = foretelling the future through star watching... ...hmmm, I would not go by that. However I suppose that Kit should start somewhere. I suppose he should leave it open, but surely he would have to decide the matter regarding Ylaruam: do the Ylari believe in astrology or not? Does Al-Kalim approve the use of astrology or not? I would go by NOT, but it's a matter of taste. > The kin would actually be more in favour of it it it was superstition than > if it was true IMO since it's easy for a despot to blame the ills that > befall them on the stars. Hmm. The point is: do the Kin believe in what they're doing, or are they just trying to stir up problems because they are power-hungry? If they really think that their ideals are the just way to rule their people, then they would use astrology only if they believed it to be correct (and thus if they thought it to be false they would attack rabidly all astrologers as fakers, servants of evil blah blah). If they are just power-hungry they would use astrology to further their scope - and this could mean either defend its use or attack it, blame the ill on the stars or blame it on the astrologers... > Theorists could sit > with their papers and tweak ideas only when the fact that it bears no > relationship to what's actually going on (the modelling of the solar system > in the 16th century being a good example), whilst experimenters, usually the > most powerful mages and clerics, would actually go and see what's going on. Heh heh heh, I think there is more than one physicist/student on this list (me being just a humble student), so be careful when you say these things...or you'll see a quick experimental example of your theory....8-) 8-) 8-) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 18:02:51 +0100 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: Rob Kuntz almost got an entry into the D&D/Mystaraworld Jeff Daly wrote: > What an inappropriate comment! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Diehm" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 11:16 PM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Rob Kuntz almost got an entry into the D&D/Mystara > world > > > What an unfortunate name! ? Am I missing something here? Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 21:18:22 -0000 From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Ylaruam: Center of Mystaran Astronomy > Heh heh heh, I think there is more than one physicist/student on this list (me > being just > a humble student), so be careful when you say these things...or you'll see > a quick experimental example of your theory....8-) 8-) 8-) > I'll just quietly polish my doctorate and leave you with some quotes: Heisenberg (on Schrodinger's wave mechanics) "crap", "loathsome" Schrodinger (on Heisenberg's matrix mechanics) "disgusting" these two mathematically equivalent systems are Quantum Mechanics. Schrodinger to Bohr "If you have to have these quantum jumps then I wish I'd never started working on atomic theory!" and didn't Von Laue swear he'd leave physics if Bohr's theory of the hydrogen atom was correct? I seem to recall his name a few years later as a Nobel winner for his work on X rays. ;) Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 16:48:54 -0500 From: David Knott Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Arcana Mystara: Astronomy and Astrology (1/4) From: "Agathokles" > > The other Savage Coast nations are not enough scholarly to > have astronomic/astrologic schools. What about Herath (mysterious wizards who would study anything and everything)? Or Gargona (a "haven for the arts and literature" -- and perhaps other scholarly subjects)? Or Saragon (strong Ylari influence on culture)? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 23:40:28 +0100 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Arcana Mystara: Astronomy andAstrology (1/4) David Knott wrote: > > From: "Agathokles" > > The other Savage Coast nations are not enough scholarly to > > have astronomic/astrologic schools. > > What about Herath (mysterious wizards who would study anything > and everything)? Or Gargona (a "haven for the arts and literature" > -- and perhaps other scholarly subjects)? Or Saragon (strong > Ylari influence on culture)? Herath: yes, though I think they are too individualistic and secretive to be acknowledged as a major astrologic school. Gargoña and Saragon: they are too small. Among the Baronials, they could probably be famed for their lore in many fields, but they can't compare with Thyatis, Alphatia or most other larger nations (if not for anything else, just for their comparatively small population). -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 23:51:04 +0100 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Ylaruam: Center of Mystaran Astronomy la Volpe wrote: > > ...hmmm, I would not go by that. However I suppose that Kit should start > somewhere. I suppose he should leave it open, but surely he would have to > decide the matter regarding Ylaruam: do the Ylari believe in astrology or not? > Does Al-Kalim approve the use of astrology or not? I would go by NOT, but > it's a matter of taste. Well, the Ylari believe in destiny and prophecies, which they use for guidance in everyday life, so astrology would be a way to get "better" predictions. > Hmm. The point is: do the Kin believe in what they're doing, or are they > just trying to stir up problems because they are power-hungry? Both factions are true heirs of Al Kalim, and each believe that their way is the right one. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:16:31 +0800 From: "Francisco V. Navarro V" Subject: Re: Ylaruam: Center of Mystaran Astronomy Hail Mystarans! I've done my preliminary research on RW Arabic traditions of astronomy and astrology. Here are my initial ideas: 1. Does astrology work in Mystara? Or more to the point: Do the Immortals really manifest their will/influence/cosmic signs through the movement of the celestial bodies? The answer is, of course, yes! The problem is, with so many traditions, so many astrologers (not all of them legitimate), so many people trying to interpret the stars (and with so many motives influencing their interpretations), it's very difficult to truly interpret/understand the will of the Immortals. This inevitably leads to misinterpretations and conflicts of interpretation, leading to some astrologers denouncing others as charlatans, blasphemers, purveyours of superstition, etc. 2 Origins of Ylari astronomy/astrology The Ylari tradition preserved both ancient Nithian and Milenian traditions, many of which were "corrupted" by the Alphatians. (This parallels the RW Arabic traditions that preserved Egyptian, Greek and other ancient traditions that were lost in the Dark Ages.) With the destruction of Alphatia, their traditions will rise into prominence. This will revolutionize astronomy and astrology in the Old/Known World (from Ylaruam, to Thyatis, to the Isle of Dawn, to Ierendi... which has Nithian mysticism in their roots, and probably affacted their astronomy/navigation traditions), but also in the Savage Coast, particulalry Gargon~a and Saragon (also Ylari/Nithian influence). 3. Astronomy: A Sacred Science The Ylari stargazers believe theirs is a sacred science, for "in the movement of the celestial bodies can be seen the omnipresent activity of the Immortals." In effect, the Ylari do not separate astronomy from astrology, and in fact, marry them closely together. Thus, only the most devout and religious are allowed to study the stars and interpret their divine meanings. (In game terms, Ylari stargazers are either magic-users, clerics, or a bit of both.) To further divorce Ylari traditions from Alphatians, I propose that Alphatian astrology tended to depart from religious meaning, and become focused on the individual. (In RW terms, it had that New Age "personal empowerment" feel.) The Ylari disagreed with this secularization and personalization of astrology, and maintained their traditions as deeply religious and ultimately sacred. Other astrological traditions in the rest of the Known World followed the Alphatian trend were also viewed as blasphemous and superstitious. 4. Question: As I don't have GAZ 2, I would like to ask WHERE exactly in Ylaruam would the center of astronomy be? What's the name of the college/school/academy? WHO would be the likely leading proponents (or do I have to make it up?) Kit Navarro Mystaran astrologer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 16:04:53 -0800 From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Ylaruam: Center of Mystaran Astronomy Okay. Two random thoughts on all this Astronomy/Astrology business... 1. Astrology vs. Astronomy. Someone mentioned astronomy would not apply to Mystara because Immortals exist and can throw meteors etc. around which they cannot predict, which would somehow invalidate or disprove astronomy. This is true, except I don't agree it somehow makes astronomy redundant - I would see it more as a whole new field of dispute between the astronomers and the astrologers - the astronomers would claim that since they couldn't predict something like the meteor that created the Great Crater, it would have been caused by Immortals, thereby changing or disrupting (depending on opinion) the natural evolution of the multiverse. Astrologers would say either that they are wrong because the astrologers did predict and they turned out to be right, or they would claim that the astronomy is an incomplete field of study because it does not factor the Immortals into its calculations, which makes it less valuable. 2. With all this talk of centers of study of Astronomy, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Ambur in Alphatia yet. I don't know what time this idea is supposed to take place in, but Ambur is noted as having an industry of scholastic astronomy is several sources (e.g., PWA1). If this is all after the great war, then Ambur is obviously lost with Alphatia. - The Stalker ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 22:25:56 -0500 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Ylaruam: Center of Mystaran Astronomy On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Paul George Dooley wrote: > and didn't Von Laue swear he'd leave physics if Bohr's theory of the > hydrogen atom was correct? I seem to recall his name a few years later as a > Nobel winner for his work on X rays. ;) Well Bohr's model wasn't _completely_ correct, so there is room for leeway there :) Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 04:14:24 +0000 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: Ylaruam: Center of Mystaran Astronomy > > 4. Question: > As I don't have GAZ 2, I would like to ask WHERE exactly in Ylaruam would > the center of astronomy be? What's the name of the college/school/academy? > WHO would be the likely leading proponents (or do I have to make it up?) > It is clear from reading the GAZ it would be located in the city of Ylarua in the emirate of Ylaruam and would be supported by the preceptor faction but less-supported by the Kin factions. The Kin are said to be less scholastic, and the poeple of the Ylaruam emirate more scholastic. I would also use the Dream of the Desert Garden University which was mentioned in Marco Dalmonte Mystaran Universities article found on the Vaults of Pandius ( you can find the articles here : http://dnd.starflung.com/mystuni.html ). _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 05:41:54 -0000 From: Paul George Dooley Subject: OT Physics quotes etc. was Re: [MYSTARA] Ylaruam: Center of Mystaran Astronomy ----- Original Message ----- From: "SteelAngel" To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 3:25 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Ylaruam: Center of Mystaran Astronomy > On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Paul George Dooley wrote: > > > and didn't Von Laue swear he'd leave physics if Bohr's theory of the > > hydrogen atom was correct? I seem to recall his name a few years later as a > > Nobel winner for his work on X rays. ;) > > Well Bohr's model wasn't _completely_ correct, so there is room for leeway > there :) > True, for after all it was only a theory, but aren't you supposed to try and disprove it rather than whine about it? After all as well as the "God doesn't play dice" from old uncle Albert he did try and knock down Quantum theory with a few papers of his own. The fact that the resultant attempts to disprove his refutations of the Quantum actually strengthened the theory as a whole have been taken by some to mean that Einstein lost his way for the rest of his life. Then again maybe he just liked the old idea of trying to disprove a theory, even one that fit's the known facts, for the simple reason that the theory is wrong. Who'd believe that if it was published in an interview years later I wonder. Undoubtedly some would say that it was merely sour grapes and an attempt to steal some of the limelight (hey! I got a reference to the people behaving like my opinion of parts of the Kin faction into this thing so it's no longer totally OT). Whilst enjoying this I realise that it is now way off topic so any further conversation on my part about it will be off list. PAUL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:32:06 +0200 From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Re: The Division of the Five - Part IV > > Well, the easier way to make them tough is to create some leaders with the > rules from PC4 "Night Howlers". 8-) > It seems that this book never reached the stores here. Or, more likely, it appeared here during the time I had no money and enough D&D material to last a lifetime. Is is any good? The PC1 was the only one of the series I bought, as the next one didn't suit my taste. I've made do with the rules of higher HD monsters in the Cyclopedia, and of course the spellcaster rules. Sometimes I have adapted the rules in Orcs of Thar. A question for you all: How did you figure the THACOs for humanoids higher than level 9 in the Orcs of Thar rules? I mean, the rules say that you just use the HD of the humanoid to figure out the battle statistics, but beyond level 9 they just get "plusses". I've tended to use a rule of the thumb, just getting them slightly better THACOs, using PC classes as a measuring stick. > > The ancient tower of Zirchev, where the werewolves are living, > > Hmm. Do you think that an Immortal would allow a group of lycanthropes > to settle down in a holy place like this? > Again I must apologise for letting "Twin Campaigns" specific ideas slip into the campaign scheme. IMC Halav, Petra and Zirchev didn't attain immortality but died the usual way. The old Nithian deity Taranis, who led the Traldar tribes away from Nithia, just started using them as a convenient front after the Hutaakan invasion ended. Why? She has some troubles with Thanatos, and too much visibility isn't good for her. Thank you for the comments. It was cool writing down this campaign scheme. I used it during "the solo period" of my campaign, when the PCs separated for two years to build their own lives. The cleric Alexander Penhaligon struggled through the campaign. Writing this gave me an opportunity to recover some lost material. Yours, Ville ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 3 Nov 2001 to 4 Nov 2001 (#2001-304) **************************************************************