Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 10 Nov 2001 to 11 Nov 2001 (#2001-310) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 12/11/2001, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 23 messages totalling 859 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Sentient Races of Mystara - 'M' to 'O' (4) 2. The Minotaur dilemma (was: Sentient Races of Mystara -'M' to 'O') (2) 3. Flames (was: Rebecca's Green Orc Blood Message) (11) 4. Green orcish blood? (3) 5. The Minotaur dilemma (was: Sentient Races of Mystara - 'M' to 'O') 6. The Minotaur dilemma (was: Sentient Races ofMystara -'M' to'O') 7. Secret Uber Vampire Variants (was: Flames) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 11:05:43 +0100 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Sentient Races of Mystara - 'M' to 'O' Dan Eustace wrote: > > > Merman > > Merrow > Merman is found in the Rules Cyclopedia and the Expert set, but I think it > is the same thing as merrow. In the RC they're described as "half-man, > half-fish". In PC3, it says: "Merrow are the classical mermen and mermaids > of legend. Yes, they are the same thing. Both were listed in the original Sentient Races list, which I'm mostly keeping to. > They have two fishy tails which resemble human legs covered in > scales and ending in fins. Some merrow have a single tail." Maybe they are > two different sub-races? According to PC3, single tails just happen sometimes, as a throwback of less modern forms of merfolk, perhaps. > Personally, I prefer the traditional merfolk as > merrow, and save the 2 leg/fin thing for the tritons, to further > distinguish between the two, but according to PC3, the differences between > merrow and tritons are mostly cultural. Also, tritons are powerful (natural) spellcasters, much like elves. > > Nightshade > > I doubt they have a society, but note that Nightshades have Int and Wis of > 19, so they are super-intelligent. Thus, they usually are on the prime for > a specific purpose, and probably would not just attack everything > indiscriminately (unless that was their purpose!). Perhaps they just feed on everything they find, or don't recognize Prime beings as intelligent. It is also possible that, given the limited number of occurrences of these monsters, the indiscriminate attack thing was mostly due to the summoning conditions of the observed cases (i.e., the summoner was asking for indiscriminate destruction). > They would also likely > be sent to Mystara by Entropic Immortals to further their evil plots, so > they could be encountered w/o a summoner. Sure. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 11:29:14 +0100 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: The Minotaur dilemma (was: Sentient Races of Mystara -'M' to 'O') > This touches on an old problem I have with Mystara, which is that minotaurs > have a different origin than they do in the more "classic" versions (i.e., > Greek mythology). > > I could use the classic version, but then I lose out on the uniquely > Mystaran version, while having that alone puts me in the strange situation > of where minotaurs come from. After all, if they are merely cursed Enduks, > how do they reproduce and spread across Mystara? That would make minotaurs > a much more rare creature. Personally I am working (since a long time) on a Minotaur History, but I have thus far only fragments (apart the old old old history of minotaurs, i.e. the rebellion of enduks against Gildesh, and you can read it at the Vaults of Pandius). But I think that the minotaur curse have been used several times in the past by some Immortals. Thus we would have whole clans of minotaurs that are cursed humans, plus the foolish ones that wished to be strong as bulls, plus whatever you can come to think of. I hope to be able to write more on the subject in the close future. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 11:36:58 +0100 From: la Volpe Subject: Flames (was: Rebecca's Green Orc Blood Message) > (Comments probably due flaming since I don't know much about > Mystara. But I just thought that the consideration might be > there. If I'm not seeing something that the Mystara world > incorporates let me know.) Don't worry about that - flaming generally comes from three things: 1) An Alphatia vs Thyatis debate (or somethihng related to it) 2) The desire to introduce in the setting Psionicists, Technomancy, Technology or Chronomancy 3) Some real world politics connection Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 19:24:55 +0800 From: Rebecca Laffar-Smith Subject: Re: Flames (was: Rebecca's Green Orc Blood Message) That's lucky then, so long as no one starts a topic on real world politics I should be alright. :) Have fun and keep gaming Yours Truly Rebecca Outlanda Games! A medieval fantasy role playing (RPG) site. - http://laffarsmith.brinkster.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "la Volpe" To: Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 6:36 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] Flames (was: Rebecca's Green Orc Blood Message) > > (Comments probably due flaming since I don't know much about > > Mystara. But I just thought that the consideration might be > > there. If I'm not seeing something that the Mystara world > > incorporates let me know.) > > Don't worry about that - flaming generally comes from three things: > > 1) An Alphatia vs Thyatis debate (or somethihng related to it) > 2) The desire to introduce in the setting Psionicists, Technomancy, > Technology > or Chronomancy > 3) Some real world politics connection > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Captain of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > ***************************************************************** *** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 14:09:43 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Green orcish blood? --- David Knott wrote: > > On a scientific basis, I would give any humanoid > creature red blood. > But Mystara is definitely not a scientific setting! Exactly. I dont see why a world that has dragons and elves should be limited to one colour of blood. Even in our universe, I wouldnt be surprised to find all sorts of things. even though Orcs are in some ways similar to humans, there are many things that make them different from us! >> From working in a hospital at one point, I know that blood sometimes appears almost black. IMC Orcs have dark green blood, so dark that it almost appears black. Havard ______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Norge - no.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 14:35:38 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: The Minotaur dilemma (was: Sentient Races of Mystara - 'M' to 'O') --- The Stalker wrote: > This touches on an old problem I have with Mystara, > which is that minotaurs > have a different origin than they do in the more > "classic" versions (i.e., > Greek mythology). What exactly is the problem you have? From reading James Mishlers history of Mystara, I get the impression that the Enduks were indeed a widespread race once, but that through the centuries they have been diminished into the small group that they are now. I also like Guiolo's idea that there can be several origins of the minotaurs, creating several "clans" of minotaurs, perhaps each having different abilities... Vampire anyone? The idea that you mention about a man being turned into a minotaur, did in fact occur in the Blood Brethren Trilogy. Ofcourse, he, Augar, was changed only a few years before AC1000. IMC I had plans for him as becoming the leader of a more intelligent race of minotaurs. Havard ______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Norge - no.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 11:33:00 +0100 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: The Minotaur dilemma (was: Sentient Races of Mystara -'M' to 'O') The Stalker wrote: > > I could use the classic version, but then I lose out on the uniquely > Mystaran version, while having that alone puts me in the strange situation > of where minotaurs come from. After all, if they are merely cursed Enduks, > how do they reproduce and spread across Mystara? That would make minotaurs > a much more rare creature. Well, Minotaurs are not that common in Mystara anyway. How many references to Minotaurs can you find in canon source? Not many, probably. (BTW, I think there is a fan-created Minotaur nation somewhere, I'll add it in the next release) > At some later point, however, some foolish human wished to be as strong as > a bull. His wish was granted by turning him into a cursed human/minotaur > hybrid because minotaurs were already known to be powerful and strong > humanoid creatures with the strength of a bull. Not sure where this human > would come from, but given the Greek mythology, Milenia might be > appropriate. Yes, probably, once the curse stabilized, it took ways that were not thought by the original creator. Much like the Red Curse itself. Otherwise, you could use Bargda as the maledictive minotaurs, as suggested in the Sentient Races entry. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:04:19 +0100 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Sentient Races of Mystara - 'M' to 'O' Eric Anondson wrote: > > > Norker > > Once more, I don't know what this critter is or where it appears. > > Norkers were initially creatures unique to Greyhawk. I say initially > because I don't know if they have appeared in adventures set in other > worlds, but they have appeared in some of the earliest writings on Greyhawk > that Gygax wrote. They are closely related to Hobgoblins and are most often > found in their company. They delight in vicious torturing. Searching through a Dragon Magazine article on regional names for monsters, I found a Swiss "Norke", a variant of the Orc: "Norke Norkes are closely related to orcs (perhaps with a little hobgoblin in their veins) and look very much like their kin, sharing the same game statistics except as follows: AC 4 (10); MV 9 (12 w/o armor); HD 1 (5-8 hp); Dmg by weapon type, +1 for strength; XP 35 and up; chain mail usually used. Norkes live only in mountainous areas, where they attack unwary travelers. They look down on orcs and smaller humanoids, enslaving them if possible." from "An orc is a norke, of course, of course--using the AKA system", by Ethan Ham Now, the only MSwiss people I can think of are the Kogolor Dwarves (well, more MAustrians), so perhaps the Norkes/Norkers could be placed somewhere in the Hollow World mountains. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 09:09:49 -0600 From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: Flames (was: Rebecca's Green Orc Blood Message) >> (Comments probably due flaming since I don't know much about >> Mystara. But I just thought that the consideration might be >> there. If I'm not seeing something that the Mystara world >> incorporates let me know.) > > Don't worry about that - flaming generally comes from three things: > > 1) An Alphatia vs Thyatis debate (or somethihng related to it) > 2) The desire to introduce in the setting Psionicists, Technomancy, > Technology or Chronomancy A corollary to this: 2b) A discussion involving the introduction of drow, or mind flayers, for instance, within the Mystaran ecosystem. > 3) Some real world politics connection Eric Anondson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:01:44 +0100 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: The Minotaur dilemma (was: Sentient Races ofMystara -'M' to'O') > Well, Minotaurs are not that common in Mystara anyway. How many > references to Minotaurs can you find in canon source? Not many, > probably. > (BTW, I think there is a fan-created Minotaur nation somewhere, I'll add > it in the next release) > There are two minotaur city states among the Confederated Kingdoms of Minaea, accordingly to...my work on the latest Almanac. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:10:32 +0100 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: Flames (was: Rebecca's Green Orc Blood Message) > Eric Anondson reminded me that : 2b) A discussion involving the > introduction of drow, or mind flayers, for instance, within the Mystaran > ecosystem. Thanks, I had completely forgotten this. 8-) Hey, just to make things clear: when I wrote my original message I wanted to be humourous...I have been responsible and/or have participated to these pointless threads more than once...I hope nobody was enraged by my post. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 12:40:32 -0600 From: Aaron E Nowack Subject: Re: Flames (was: Rebecca's Green Orc Blood Message) On Sun, 11 Nov 2001 09:09:49 -0600 Eric Anondson writes: > >> (Comments probably due flaming since I don't know much about > >> Mystara. But I just thought that the consideration might be > >> there. If I'm not seeing something that the Mystara world > >> incorporates let me know.) > > > > Don't worry about that - flaming generally comes from three > things: > > > > 1) An Alphatia vs Thyatis debate (or somethihng related to it) > > 2) The desire to introduce in the setting Psionicists, > Technomancy, > > Technology or Chronomancy > > A corollary to this: > > 2b) A discussion involving the introduction of drow, or mind > flayers, for > instance, within the Mystaran ecosystem. > > > 3) Some real world politics connection > You forgot: 4) Any statement about the canon or "net-canon" status of any fan work. Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/anowack/ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:46:59 -0500 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Sentient Races of Mystara - 'M' to 'O' From: "Agathokles" > > > > Nightshade > > > > I doubt they have a society, but note that Nightshades have Int and Wis of > > 19, so they are super-intelligent. Thus, they usually are on the prime for > > a specific purpose, and probably would not just attack everything > > indiscriminately (unless that was their purpose!). > > Perhaps they just feed on everything they find, or don't recognize Prime > beings as intelligent. It is also possible that, given the limited > number of occurrences of these monsters, the indiscriminate attack thing > was mostly due to the summoning conditions of the observed cases (i.e., > the summoner was asking for indiscriminate destruction). How they behave would indeed depend on the reason for their presence. In one of the Immortal level modules, they were feeding on clueless subway riders in the equivalent of Manhattan in an alternate universe. In Gaz 3, Prince Jherek apparently has full control of one to guard the prisoners in the Tower of Sighs. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:49:42 -0500 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Sentient Races of Mystara - 'M' to 'O' From: "Agathokles" > > Now, the only MSwiss people I can think of are the Kogolor Dwarves > (well, more MAustrians), so perhaps the Norkes/Norkers could be placed > somewhere in the Hollow World mountains. Easy solution: "Norker" is what the Kogolor dwarves call their enemies, the Krugel orcs. BTW, the AD&D Norkers are goblin sized creatures as tough as hobgoblins with an effective bite attack. I would class them with orogs and ogrillons as goblinoid variants that would fit in among the other goblinoid races -- but why bother? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 17:43:19 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Flames (was: Rebecca's Green Orc Blood Message) > > Don't worry about that - flaming generally comes from three > things: > > 1) An Alphatia vs Thyatis debate (or somethihng related to it) > > 2) The desire to introduce in the setting Psionicists, Technomancy, > > Technology or Chronomancy > A corollary to this: > > 2b) A discussion involving the introduction of drow, or mind > flayers, for > instance, within the Mystaran ecosystem. > > 3) Some real world politics connection > You forgot: 4) Any statement about the canon or "net-canon" status of any fan work.>> And soon to be added to the mix........ 5) My PS crossover material 6) My DV races/cultures 7) My Secret Uber Vampire Variants 8) My Mystaran Secret Sects and Brotherhoods. Neither see the use of Drow, Psionics, Alphatia, or Thyatis. Technology is included for #6 but it's not what you think. And #8 sees some Alpher references....also #7 sees Alpher and Thy references. But not to worry...given my current track record with finishing Mystara projects it may be years before anything is seen. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:27:42 -0500 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Flames (was: Rebecca's Green Orc Blood Message) From: "Alex Benson" > > And soon to be added to the mix........ > 5) My PS crossover material > 6) My DV races/cultures > 7) My Secret Uber Vampire Variants > 8) My Mystaran Secret Sects and Brotherhoods. How about: 9) Debates over rule systems (0E vs. 2E vs. 3E). Whoever includes game stats in their material is likely to give stats for only one or perhaps two of the possible rule systems. Then the flames can start over "Why didn't you include X rules?", "Because X rules suck!", etc. Foreseeing that exchange, let me propose replacing it with the following: A: "Here is my nifty new Mystaran race. I have described them in terms compatible with the D&D RC." B: "That's very nice. Have you thought of the stats for 2E or 3E? After all, not many of us play the older rules any more -- we can't even find them in the stores!" A: "Sorry, I never got into other versions of the rules. Feel free to do your own conversions if you like." B: "Thanks! I'll do that!" Later: B: "Okay, here is my conversion of A's new race to AD&D 2E." C: "Looks good -- When is that 3E conversion coming?" B: "Um -- I don't think I will be doing that one. My group prefers 2E. Are you volunteering to do that conversion?" C: "Okay...." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:33:21 -0500 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Flames (was: Rebecca's Green Orc Blood Message) On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, la Volpe wrote: > 2) The desire to introduce in the setting Psionicists, Technomancy, > Technology > or Chronomancy Not So Not so! I introduced Technomancy quoite easily, with little debate :) As long as you consider "no obvert hate mail" little debate.. Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:35:29 -0500 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Flames (was: Rebecca's Green Orc Blood Message) On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Alex Benson wrote: > 6) My DV races/cultures Pshaw (Pgnome?) I for one am waiting to see your DV stuff, as mine seems to have been sucked into the black hole of "need thesis done by december". Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:04:42 -0800 From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Green orcish blood? On Sun, 11 Nov 2001 14:09:43 +0100, =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= wrote: > --- David Knott wrote: >> >> On a scientific basis, I would give any humanoid >> creature red blood. >> But Mystara is definitely not a scientific setting! > LOL. No, not really :) > Exactly. I dont see why a world that has dragons and > elves should be limited to one colour of blood. Even > in our universe, I wouldnt be surprised to find all > sorts of things. even though Orcs are in some ways > similar to humans, there are many things that make > them different from us! > >> From working in a hospital at one point, I know that > blood sometimes appears almost black. > > IMC Orcs have dark green blood, so dark that it almost > appears black. > Ah, a clever compromise. I think I'll steal that outright if you don't mind. Thanks :) - The Stalker ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:09:07 -0800 From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Flames (was: Rebecca's Green Orc Blood Message) On Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:27:42 -0500, David Knott wrote: > From: "Alex Benson" >> >> And soon to be added to the mix........ >> 5) My PS crossover material >> 6) My DV races/cultures >> 7) My Secret Uber Vampire Variants >> 8) My Mystaran Secret Sects and Brotherhoods. > > How about: > > 9) Debates over rule systems (0E vs. 2E vs. 3E). Whoever includes > game stats in their material is likely to give stats for only one or > perhaps two of the possible rule systems. Then the flames can > start over "Why didn't you include X rules?", "Because X rules > suck!", etc. > You're forgetting point 9b, which goes some like this: "This is so cool and should be used in " - always a recipe for certain trouble! :) > Foreseeing that exchange, let me propose replacing it with the > following: > > A: "Here is my nifty new Mystaran race. I have described them in > terms compatible with the D&D RC." > > B: "That's very nice. Have you thought of the stats for 2E or 3E? > After all, not many of us play the older rules any more -- we can't > even find them in the stores!" > > A: "Sorry, I never got into other versions of the rules. Feel free to > do your own conversions if you like." > > B: "Thanks! I'll do that!" > > Later: > > B: "Okay, here is my conversion of A's new race to AD&D 2E." > > C: "Looks good -- When is that 3E conversion coming?" > > B: "Um -- I don't think I will be doing that one. My group prefers > 2E. Are you volunteering to do that conversion?" > > C: "Okay...." > You're far too nice about it. At this point someone would be arguing Mystara's history or quality is being abused in favor of some stupid rules :) - The Stalker ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:45:02 +0000 From: Mike Harvey Subject: Re: Green orcish blood? The Stalker wrote: > Do orcs have green blood?? I don't think so. I like the "black blood" idea, partially because blood could be so dark blue/red that it looks black. Another factor is that pale human flesh appears pinkish largely because of the red blood in it. When people suffocate their skin turns bluish because the blood changes color. If orcs have green blood, they're also likely to have flesh ranging from greenish to brownish. (The RC doesn't say what color their skin is, so it's up to you) > I wouldn't think so. I always had all blood red IMC, but reading the > beginning of the "Dark Knight of Karameikos" novel, it clearly states that > orcs have green blood. Hmmmm... It wouldn't be the first time I've ignored a dumb idea from a novel! > Does this mean orcs have green blood in general? Or do they just have green > blood on Mystara? Or do they only have green blood in bad stories? ;) > > [Note: I'm not saying the novel is, since I haven't actually read - > just that green orcish blood might be a reason for saying so] I have read it and thought it was rather amateurish, though better than the Dragonlord trilogy. IMO of course. It did do a good job of portraying Traladaran life in Karameikos, and was entertaining. (But hey, I think D&D is entertaining, so what do I know about literary art? :-) Mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Harvey gm@dsl-only.net (formerly bing@iccom.com) http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 20:59:37 -0500 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Flames (was: Rebecca's Green Orc Blood Message) From: "The Stalker" > > You're far too nice about it. At this point someone would be arguing > Mystara's history or quality is being abused in favor of some stupid > rules :) Of course it was unrealistically nice -- I was suggesting how the discussion should go, not how it actually would go! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 09:52:16 +0200 From: Saarela Sami Subject: Re: Secret Uber Vampire Variants (was: Flames) > ---------- > Lähettäjä: Alex Benson[SMTP:Alex295@AOL.COM] > Vastaa: Mystara RPG Discussion > Lähetetty: 12. marraskuuta 2001 0:43 > Vastaanottaja: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Aihe: Re: [MYSTARA] Flames (was: Rebecca's Green Orc Blood > Message) > > > 7) My Secret Uber Vampire Variants > > Are these in the Vaults? If so, could someone guide me to them? I'd be interested in taking a look. Thanks in advance, - Sami ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 10 Nov 2001 to 11 Nov 2001 (#2001-310) ****************************************************************