Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 13 Apr 2002 to 14 Apr 2002 (#2002-102) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 15/04/2002, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 14 messages totalling 508 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Glantri box (4) 2. Dark Elves vs. Drow 3. The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate (5) 4. Drows, Illithids and Beholders, Oh my. 5. Dark Elves 6. R/L Help! (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 23:04:36 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Glantri box Michael McConnell wrote: > > Which reminds me, I'll be running MoA soon and I need to find a > different monster, as the party is way too tough for a mind > flayer. Hmm.... I'd use the mad Brain Collector from the Princess Ark series. It had multiple personalities, due to the different mages whose brains he had eaten. Being that the mages where too powerful (IIRC), the Brain Collector became insane (multiple personalities). You might add that it has the spell abilities of the dominating personality, which by the way shifts every few rounds... -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:37:20 -0400 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: Dark Elves vs. Drow > 1: How do you know as a fact that not a lot of Mystaran players haven't > taken sociology ? Do you have access to some numbers or was this previously > discussed on the list ? > > > No one discusses sociology here, if they did, i would have gotten an A on my term paper. > > Strange that no one discusses real-life sociology here, considering the fact that this is a dungeons and dragons Mystara list... strange indeed... Have I taken sociology ? > 2: Why do you assume the type of poeple who play Mystara are the type of > poeple that would choose what you qualify an easier course over an harder > one ? Is it your opinion that Mystara players take the "easiest" way out of > college, that is if they ever went at all ! > > > My opinion, because McNerd overanalyze a fictious race, you might as well discuss the Gorean lifestyle as well. > Well I must be one of those "easy-way-out mystaran" poeple since I still fail to see why one person overanalyzing a fictious race shows that not only one person, but the list in general has taken the easy way-out in college ? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:41:33 -0400 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > > ******************************************************************** > I chose to add the drow because they are more easier for the character to handle than a mind flayer or a Beholder, plus the Drow are mainly Evil. I don't like DMing a Mind Flayer, because Psionics gives them an unfair advantage. and I don't even want to deal with the Beholder, if you read the Monsterous Arcana's you would know why i won't deat with the Multiple Eyed creatures or the Psychic Menace. > Yes I have read the moustrous arcana and yes indeed the moustrous arcana truly shows beholder's as extremely dangerous. I think that's great tough for powerful party, and anyway I found the moustrous arcana on beholders very interesting. As for psionics, having played a lot of Dark Sun, I know all about it. Me too I am not too fond of the illithid. I agree with your assessment, I just didnt understand the reasoning behind your first post. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 18:48:33 +0200 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Glantri box Agathokles wrote: > I'd use the mad Brain Collector from the Princess Ark series. It had > multiple personalities, due to the different mages whose brains he had > eaten. Being that the mages where too powerful (IIRC), the Brain > Collector became insane (multiple personalities). You might add that = it > has the spell abilities of the dominating personality, which by the = way > shifts every few rounds... Do you (or anybody else) remember, which issue of Dragon this was in? I = can't remember anything about this, but it sounds interesting. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 17:13:58 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Glantri box Jacob Skytte wrote: > > > I'd use the mad Brain Collector from the Princess Ark series. It had > > Do you (or anybody else) remember, which issue of Dragon this was in? I can't remember anything about this, but it sounds interesting. Uhm, I don't remember right now, but they were in Herath, it was one of the last VotPA articles. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 15:43:14 -0500 From: Stone Marshall Subject: Re: Glantri box It was in # 185....September 1992....ah the good ol' days ;) Multizar the Mage > From: Jacob Skytte > Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Glantri box > Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 18:48:33 +0200 > > Agathokles wrote: > > > I'd use the mad Brain Collector from the Princess Ark series. It had > > multiple personalities, due to the different mages whose brains he had > > eaten. Being that the mages where too powerful (IIRC), the Brain > > Collector became insane (multiple personalities). You might add that it > > has the spell abilities of the dominating personality, which by the way > > shifts every few rounds... > > Do you (or anybody else) remember, which issue of Dragon this was in? I > can't remember anything about this, but it sounds interesting. > > Jacob Skytte > scythe@wanadoo.dk > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 18:33:55 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > > With no mention of Dark Elves anywhere, I can only conclude > that they were part of those false memories. Apparently > Allston didn't want any Dark Elves on Mystara either. > > Now, I admit to nitpicking here but this is an assumption on > your part. It doesn't say that the Dark Elves were > false memories at all, only that the false memories were they > lived in Rockhome and were expelled from there. > It really can go either way. This gave me an idea. Perhaps the Modrigswerg were given false memories by the Dark Elves in order to hide the location of the Dark Elves on Mystara. The Dark Elves want everyone to believe they don't exist. Heh, Heh, Heh.... Until it is too late. Hoooo, Hooo, Haaah, Haaah, (Dr. Evil style laugh :) > I don't have GAZ7 in front of me, but I seem to recall that > the dark elves were native to an outer plane that > was part of Viking mythology, like the world tree. As such > dark elves are really optional, and with so little > information about them, you can make them anything you want, > and if you don't want them, they have left > or never had a presence on Mystara. > > Dave Keyser > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 18:33:56 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of Jacob Skytte > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 3:48 PM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > > > macnerd wrote: > > > > Mystara does not have any such notion of DROW. However, > they do have DARK > > ELVES. > > There was an expelled Dwarven clan that had dealings with > them and this is > > documented in Northern Reaches. > > Only they didn't actually, if you look in the Hollow World > set. The Modrigswerg were expelled because they had dealings > with Dark Elves and cultists, according to GAZ 7. But later > in the Hollow World DM's Sourcebook, we're told that the > Modrigswerg were really planted in the Northern Reaches > (where they actually used to live, before the dwarven race > was recreated) with false memories of having lived in > Rockhome and being expelled from there. With no mention of > Dark Elves anywhere, I can only conclude that they were part > of those false memories. Apparently Allston didn't want any > Dark Elves on Mystara either. I understand what you are saying, but I would not begin to posultate such a conclusion. > > And yes, Dark Elves are officially canon; though some > people in the past > > tried to dimiss this... > > Well, as I've just related, later canon sources seem to > dismiss this too. Not that I hold anything against people > wanting to go by GAZ 7. Svartalfen are appropriate for a > campaign inspired by viking legends. > > But to introduce something new here: For their color, I'm not > sure I'd want them to be black; Dark referring to their > disposition, not their skin, IMO. Do the Norse legends explicitly rely that this was due to their disposition? I remember that there were the Light Elves of Alfheim and the Dark Elves of Svartalfheim. I always thought light meant light and dark meant, well, dark. Do you have something against beings having dark skin? > Jacob Skytte > scythe@wanadoo.dk > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 22:47:26 -0400 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > > > With no mention of Dark Elves anywhere, I can only conclude > > that they were part of those false memories. Apparently > > Allston didn't want any Dark Elves on Mystara either. > This gave me an idea. Perhaps the Modrigswerg were given > false memories by the Dark Elves in order to hide the > location of the Dark Elves on Mystara. > > The Dark Elves want everyone to believe they don't exist. > Heh, Heh, Heh.... Until it is too late. Hoooo, Hooo, Haaah, > Haaah, (Dr. Evil style laugh :) IMC, I use Dark Elves (sparingly), but they are not a seperate race. They are simply elves who have been corrupted by Entropy and turned to evil. Most of these are renegades who live apart from normal elven society. This was my understanding of the dark elf, Dalamar in the 2nd Dragonlance trilogy. His appearance was no difference from other elves, but his demeanor, outlook, and lust for power certainly were. Atzanteotl would have been thus type of "dark elf" in his moratl life. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 22:52:30 -0400 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > Do the Norse legends explicitly rely that this was due to their > disposition? I remember that there were the Light Elves of > Alfheim and the Dark Elves of Svartalfheim. I always thought > light meant light and dark meant, well, dark. > > Do you have something against beings having dark skin? I really don't think this is what he meant. In fact, the nuances of light and dark when referring to elves imply more about their nature than their coloration. The meaning depends on the context. The Light Elves were benefactors of the good Norse gods, while the Dark elves were mischievous, and at odds with them (IIRC). In this context, the meaning is good elves, and bad elves. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 20:21:32 -0700 From: Jordi Castille Subject: Drows, Illithids and Beholders, Oh my. If you had to chose between Beholders, Illithids, and the Drow to have added In the underdark outside of the known world, who would you chose, that' s the logic behind it. And, i would have to say that which underdark creature would you use. If you want to destroy a party with a nasty monster, use the beholder, if you wish to give them a very nasty headache fighting, use the Illithids, and if you want to fight an powerful underdark race that you have an even chance of surviving, then go with the drow. That's my logic behind the post. Gilles Leblanc wrote: > > ******************************************************************** > I chose to add the drow because they are more easier for the character to handle than a mind flayer or a Beholder, plus the Drow are mainly Evil. I don't like DMing a Mind Flayer, because Psionics gives them an unfair advantage. and I don't even want to deal with the Beholder, if you read the Monsterous Arcana's you would know why i won't deat with the Multiple Eyed creatures or the Psychic Menace. > Yes I have read the moustrous arcana and yes indeed the moustrous arcana truly shows beholder's as extremely dangerous. I think that's great tough for powerful party, and anyway I found the moustrous arcana on beholders very interesting. As for psionics, having played a lot of Dark Sun, I know all about it. Me too I am not too fond of the illithid. I agree with your assessment, I just didnt understand the reasoning behind your first post. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:30:33 -0500 From: Roger Girtman Subject: Dark Elves

Shadow Elves are not Drow... Dark Elves are not Drow... Yes, there was a small consensus a long time ago that there was a VERY small enclave of Drow underneath the one plateau, but none of my PCs are ever going there... Maybe a comprimise is in order: Yes the Drow are in Mystara, they were gated there from Faerun, but there is no entrance/exit for them to have contact with any Mystara race (on a regular basis--this suggestion may be temporary disallowed for one-time adventure oportunities if the DM so desires, but of course a convenient cave-in will once again trap the hitherto unknown Drow in their underdark prison as soon as the adventure is over).

But on to the main topic. The NR dwarves have the false memory of being expelled from Rockhome due to their involvement with the dark elves--but it is later found that this is untrue, and so is the catalyst, the dark elves... they didn't get the NR dwarves kicked out of Rockhome, because they weren't kicked out at all!

BUT!!! that doesn't mean the dark elves don't exist, they certainly do! Why would the NR dwarves be expelled for something that doesnt even exist... I don't think the Immortals are that dense as to make up that bad of a story--they wanted it to seem both real and plausible, didn't they?  The Norse culture (whom we all know the NR are based upon) is inextricable intermingled with a balance--light and dark, good and evil, law and chaos (notice I said "and" and not "versus"); so yes, dark elves are real--they jsut weren't involved with the Dwarves...

The term "dark" refers to their disposition, not evil but crafty and very much a trickster (subjects of Eiryndul, Loki or maybe Asterius--Koroiktu is good too, a spider patron for the Drow enthusiants)... The important part of all this is in the real-world Nordic legends, ALL the elves evolved from the maggots infesting the body of the giant Ymir... the only difference is that some used their magic tricks to help (remember the story about the cobbler and the shoemaker?) and some used their magic to...annoy...(Rumplestiltskin).... they were NOT evil, just the Norse equivelant of Leprichauns (sp?)....

And lastly, the black-skinned elf on the cover of the Alfheim gazeteer... first off, Mr Caldwell (my second fav artist behind Elmore) is not to blame for having several paintings featuring elves put into a callage for the cover--he did not paint the cover as-is... secondly, the elf in question cannot be a Drow--her magical daggers aren't black in color... her "armor?" is bronze--the Drow only use silvered metals... and lastly, there is no panther nearby... I tend to agree to what somebody said earlier--that she is a shadow elf in the middle of a ceremony that will allow her to live permanantly on the surface world.

Also, before I go (if u haven't deleted this post already) somone mentioned the Drow's matriarchal society as being a DIFFERENCE between them and the Shadow Elves/Schattenalfen--this is not true, as the latter are also matriarchal (the White Shaman and Radiant Shaman are always female), just not to the same extent...

Anyway, I'll stop talking for now... till next time,

Roger
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------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:33:15 -0500 From: Roger Girtman Subject: R/L Help!

If anyone is recieving these posts, please let me know... I can't seem to get the ListServ to turn on the post-mirroring option, So I don't know if my posts get through or not...

Thanks alot,

Roger


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------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 21:45:11 -0700 From: Larry Subject: Re: R/L Help! Your geting through.. ;-) --- Roger Girtman wrote:

If anyone is recieving these posts, please let me know... I can't seem to get the ListServ to turn on the post-mirroring option, So I don't know if my posts get through or not...

Thanks alot,

Roger


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"Chivalry doesn't mean that a woman CAN'T open a door for herself, only that a lady SHOULDN'T HAVE TO."
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******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ===== "Happy Hunting!" My web site: http://www.geocities.com/boonedale/ My Robotech game on Yahoo! groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RobotechGame/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 13 Apr 2002 to 14 Apr 2002 (#2002-102) ****************************************************************