Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 14 Apr 2002 to 15 Apr 2002 (#2002-103) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 16/04/2002, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 23 messages totalling 1317 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. A cool gaming session (3) 2. The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate 3. Dark Elves vs. Drow (4) 4. The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate 5. 2E vs 3E (2) 6. Basic for beginners (was 2E vs 3E) (4) 7. Blackmoor : [MYSTARA] 2E vs 3E 8. Need some ideas 9. rockhome adventure (3) 10. Flame Wars of the past 11. Dark Elves 12. Glantri & monsters ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:49:28 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: A cool gaming session We had a wonderful gaming session last night, and I had to share this with someone... Sometimes it can be really cool when the players surprise the DM. A few days ago I asked for help for the Karameikos events that take place during the X10 adventure. I got some good advice, thanks a lot. Well, now two of the PCs (the group separated temporarily to get allies more quickly) begun their latest adventures in Karameikos. While designing this section of the adventure I decided that it was time to get rid of Black Eagle once and for all - after all, that's the main point in the text official adventure too. I have changed a lot, a lot, in the adventure, but this goal suited me and the future of the campaign well. But things don't always work the way we DMs think they might. I wrote the Karameikos section to be very open-eded, mainly because those two PCs are the most unpredictable of the whole bunch. They are very resouceable and have much less moral scruples than the others. So I'd have to be prepared for surorising decisions and strategien on their part. As I wrote earlier, I decided that Hendricks had made a deal with the Nomads. The Nomads sent two Divisions to help Hendricks take over the country, and for that Hendricks would join them in the ongoing Great War. But, behind the scenes the Nomads had made a deal with Bargle, too. After the conlfict Bargle would take up the reigns of power, Hendricks ending up either dead or a magical puppet. Hendricks had found this out, however. He had purchased some exquisite magical mind-protection and would try to contact the PCs- his plan was to betray the plans of the Nomads and Bargle to them. Ideally, the PCs would assassinate Bargle and the Karameikan armies would ambush the Nomad Divisions. Then, after bloody battles, Hendricks could use his own troops to capture power of to expand his holdings. (Depending on the degreee the Karameikan army would be weakened in destroying the Nomads - the Elvenguard is of course the most important factor here.) The latter part of the plan Hendricks would of course keep secret from the PCs (remember the mind shielding). The obvious problem here is of course that most PCs would be more likely to kill Hendricks too, after he had revealed his plans. So, Hendricks had gathered a hundred former slaver of Iron Ring and would use them as hostages while negotiating with the PCs. But the PCs were way ahead of me. Instead of waiting for Hendricks to arrive in Specularum for negotiations, they (with clever use of their intelligence gathering resources) ambushed Hendricks, Bargle, their retinue and the Nomad ambassadors on the Westron road. Fearing the halfling pirates Hendricks had decided to take the land route. The PCs and their trusted allies managed to gain total surprise. Bargle was killed before he could utter a single magical incantation, and many of the dangerous Nomad agents were decapacitated. (Note: I made the fight really really hard, almost impossible, but the PCs have learned well...) To their surprise Hendricks reacted to the attack by shouting to the PC thief: "Well now that you bastards started this, make damn sure that you finish off every last one of them!" After a dangerous but quick battle only Hendircks and his bodyguards remained, and Hendricks called for negotiations. Hendricks told the PCs something of his previous plans. My idea at this stage (note: I had to react to a very sudden and surprising situation!) was that Hendricks would offer to lure the Nomads to a suitable position, in order to attack them from two directions. Of course his intention was to leave the Karameikans to fight the Nomads alone and then attack himself. But due to the mind-shielding (a permanent enchantment), the PCs were unsure whether to buy this. Well, while I went out for a cigarette and to think about my next actions, the players of the PCs reached a surprising decision. They decided to disregard the threat made by Hendricks ("if you hurt me, those 100 slaves will die horribly"), and the thief PC plain and simply poisoned Hendricks! They them killed the remaining bodyguards, cleaned the road of bodies and burned all the corpses. Note: This was made possible only by the fact that it was just these two PCs who were on the scene. And by the fact that they had selected just the right allied who would have no trouble doing this. Still this came as a surprise. A fitting ending for those two old villains, nonetheless. Bargle the Infamous, killed by two strikes to his back, by a thief who used to dream of killing the wizards 10 years ago. Hendricks, finished without a trace of heroism, convulsing and screaming, like so many of his victims. The best part is that the PCs made a decision that they shall tell nobody about this! Now the situation is that Stephan Karameikos is waiting for his cousin to visit him - a visit that will never take place... The Karameikan war will turn out quite different than I expected. Perhaps no civil war at all, just "a righteous battle to drive out the foreign Nomad invaders". If only Staphen new of the deeds that made this possible. Ville ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:05:10 +0200 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate macnerd wrote: > > But to introduce something new here: For their color, I'm not > > sure I'd want them to be black; Dark referring to their > > disposition, not their skin, IMO. > =20 > Do the Norse legends explicitly rely that this was due to their > disposition? I remember that there were the Light Elves of > Alfheim and the Dark Elves of Svartalfheim. I always thought > light meant light and dark meant, well, dark. I started by saying "I'm not sure I'd want" and ended by saying "IMO." = Why should I need to justify what I said by turning to Norse legends? = But in all the mythology I've gone through, I can't recall ever seeing = anything about skin color. The Alfheim Elves were noble and good, the = Svartalfen were vile and treacherous. This gives plenty of reason to = label one Light and the other Dark. Light and dark tells us little = without knowing what is light and what is dark. You say light/dark skin, = I say light/dark disposition. > Do you have something against beings having dark skin? Huh? Maybe I do for all you know (though I think making such an = accusation is a good way to start a flame war), but even if so, that's = not the reason I don't want Elves with dark skin. Well, actually I do = want some of those, living in a place where such a skin color would be = the norm. But Dark Elves IMC (if I ever chose to use them) should be = able to blend in with other Elves, living among regular people without = such a prominent stigma. They would be rarer than rare, planning great = disasters for other beings out of spite and hatred. Here's a thought that has nothing to do with viking mythology btw: Any = Elf questing for Immortality in the Sphere of Entropy is a "Dark" Elf. = That's where they come from. And perhaps their skin even turns black as = they progress towards Immortality, making their later tasks harder to = complete since any ordinary Elf would know exactly what that dark skin = meant. Even makes some sense with the Modrigswerg history and tells us = why there officially aren't any Dark Elf communities anywhere. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:46:39 -0300 From: Just Another Grue Subject: Re: Dark Elves vs. Drow LOL!!!! That's absolutely rich. I took sociology for years as a major part of my degree and everyone on any RPG list seems to disregard or disagree with everything I have to say on the subject. (BTW It's not sour grapes, just incredibly ironic.) The great thing about gaming though is you can make things incredibly fantastic or incredibly realistic and plausible. It all depends on your campaign style and preferences. Hence my Mystaran 'Drow' have a totally different origin from others. There's no spider deities. The matriarchy is not as tyrannical as every other GM I've met want to portray it. The culture is built on different assumptions. And no single, random Drow is ever a munchkin-slaying powerhouse. It seems though that from my experience a lot of people into RPGs do have a lot of interest in the development of cultures whether it is self-taught, using Nat'l Geog as a staple source material for world building, or using the bachelor's degree for that which it was never intended. BTW, to me sociology and history were easy because they were interesting and the profs were great lecturers who could come up with involving questions. Calculus was difficult because I couldn't understand the guy through the thick Eastern European accent. Noone's fault that, just the facts. I'm certain he was a genius. The only history class that was hard was because of one extremely bigotted T.A. whose own masters thesis was the answer to all the questions she corrected. bleakcabal@HOTMAIL.COM wrote: >> 1: How do you know as a fact that not a lot of Mystaran players haven't >> taken sociology ? Do you have access to some numbers or was this >> > previously > >> discussed on the list ? >> >> >> No one discusses sociology here, if they did, i would have gotten an A on >> > my term paper. > >> > > Strange that no one discusses real-life sociology here, considering the fact > that this is a dungeons and dragons Mystara list... strange indeed... > > Have I taken sociology ? > > >> 2: Why do you assume the type of poeple who play Mystara are the type of >> poeple that would choose what you qualify an easier course over an harder >> one ? Is it your opinion that Mystara players take the "easiest" way out >> > of > >> college, that is if they ever went at all ! >> >> >> My opinion, because McNerd overanalyze a fictious race, you might as well >> > discuss the Gorean lifestyle as well. > > > Well I must be one of those "easy-way-out mystaran" poeple since I still > fail to see why one person overanalyzing a fictious race shows that not only > one person, but the list in general has taken the easy way-out in college ? > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 11:27:14 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate > > Too late, the flame war has just begun. > > Jordi Castille. And this is where it can stop, too. If you want to talk about how drow might be placed in Mystara, go ahead; as I have said before, this is a benevolent dictatorship. :-) If you want to argue about whether drow are cool or not, or whether they have any place in Mystara whatsoever, then please remove it to a private discussion. You have a right to your own opinion, as do I, and as does everyone else on this list. Not everyone likes drow, and not everyone thinks they belong in Mystara. This is a matter of opinion, but those people who *do* think they might be an interesting thing to add to Mystara should be allowed to discuss it. If you don't like the topic, don't read it. I don't mean to stop anyone here unnecessarily, but I don't want this to erupt into yet another flame war. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:45:03 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: 2E vs 3E > > If a GM wanted to create classes, it's simplier in 2e, as > > he would create the class under one of the groups. In 3e, > > it's far more complicated, has one has to have a specific > > set of skills per that class. > > > > Yes it was quicker and only simpler because it didn't ensure > game balance. > This is just another reason why there were a lot of broken > kits in the game. Kits started out as a novel approach to create role playing ideas, and that was it. However, in later handbooks, they mutated into class-modifying kits that were imbalancing. Kits were never a conception of the original 2e, but added later in the handbooks. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:07:17 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: 2E vs 3E > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of Beau Yarbrough > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 2:56 PM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: [MYSTARA] 2E vs 3E > > > At 12:13 4/12/02 -0700, macnerd wrote: > > >No. I am saying there are base classes that have an exact > >set of skills for each class. 2E had class groups which had > >their own skill lists. The WARRIOR, PRIEST, WIZARD, ROGUE > >had their lists of skills and stats that all the classes > >were grouped under. It was simpler and smooth. 3E has each > >class have their specific set of skill list. It's more > >complicated. > > I don't think it's any more complicated. One could > argue it's simpler, > when the fact is, it's just a slightly different approach. Anyways, I entirely disagree. > > >If a GM wanted to create classes, it's simplier in 2e, as > >he would create the class under one of the groups. In 3e, > >it's far more complicated, has one has to have a specific > >set of skills per that class. > > I'm not sure what else would define a class other > than the things they can > do. And try making a prestige class sometime. It's painfully > easy to make a > nice and balanced one. Given the monstrosities that have been > created by > fans and published in the Dragon over the years, I'd say it > looks like it > was harder to make new classes. > > >> >The 3E system did away of this and > >> >remade everyone into generic priests. > >> > >> Um, no. There's a whole section about Domains, and > >> they give specific > >> examples in the PHB of how the domains for priests of > >> different gods have > >> different spells and abilities. Specialty priests are now the > >> basic sort of > >> cleric in the game. > > > >However, it just isn't the same feel. Also, the speciality > >priests are done away with. Priests still seem too generic. > >But, there's pretige classes and such, so the same can be > >replicated with effort. > > The specialty priests AREN'T done away with. ALL > clerics are specialty > priests now. Every cleric gets two special powers based on > their diety, and > two spells per level because of it. Their spell list is also limited > because of their diety, and even the Spiritual Hammer spell work on a > per-diety basis now. OK. So it's different. However, I think there is a level of customization that is gone. I am not saying this is a bad thing, I am merely pointing out that it is different. You can perhaps acheive similar affects with prestige classes and the spell domains in 3e. The criticism that I have about this area, is that there were books with lists of unique speciality priests, and very little of it has been converted to 3e. Again, I think the 3e material is better for priests, but just that a lot of content was never converted, and it seems that it may not be converted. > >Any skills added to the game, would have to be evaluated with each > >and every class in 3e, as the skill list is specific per class. > > No, they wouldn't. That's a weird thing to say. I've > made several skills > for my 3E campaigns, and each time, they were general skills > by default, > and if there was a class that screamed out for them, I'd put > them on the > class list. But since, say, there's no monks in my campaign, > I didn't spend > any energy worrying about it. > > >> The D20 Star Wars RPG would be a good starting > point as well. > > > >Many criticize Star Wars d20, but nevertheless, there are > some ideas there. > >>From what I am told, is that the game was rushed, and that > there'll be a > >second version with revised rules. > > The second version is only coming out to adapt the > material from the new > Star Wars movie. Rumors that it was rushed seem to be based around a > misunderstanding. I guess there's all kinds of stories about this now. I hear though a lot of general criticism over the game. I can understand why people would be led to beleive that it is rushed, as the other option is to think that the game designers botched up. Though, I guess some could think the system is holier than though and is the best thing since pudding. Either way, there are some meritable ideas from this system. Like vitality points. I am curious though if people would want Blackmoor d20 that used vitality points, or stuck with the more traditional hitpoint system. > >> Well, it's your campaign. Beat the player with the > >> PHB until they agree to > >> read Rule Zero: Check with the DM first. > > > >I guess to each is there own. Some may want to mold Mystara > >into 3e, while otheres may want to mold 3e into Mystara. :-) > > Why do you care what other people do, though? I limit > the classes and > races available to my players, and what classes the races can > be. :) It is > your campaign. If someone on the other side of the world has dwarven > wizards in their campaign, how does that affect you? Where do you get the idea I care what other people do? That is why I said "to each is there own". You know "different strokes, for different folks"? Is there something misunderstood? I am concerned though if people try to strip the uniqueness that makes Mystara great and make it fit a more generic D&D3e. This is what I feel is the direction of the Mystara-3e yahoo group is going. At least, that is the preception I get from a lot of people's concepts. My point saying is that many of the countries characteristics and traits that make that nation/region unique. Though if someone wants to make a dwarven wizard kingdom out of Rockhome, or Glantri into theoracracy, then so be it. Personally, I wouldn't go there. Nevertheless, if someone wants to create a Dwarven Paladin/Ninja/Wizard, I'm not going to stop him, though as a GM, would have to rule that the wizardry and ninja skills weren't learned from Rockhome. Also, as a Paladin that turns undead and lays on hands, I would not allow that as a Dwarven religion. > >For this reason, IMC, there is no language like COMMON, but > >rather Thyatian, Alphatian, Hulean, Traldaran, etc. > > Thyatian = Common. ;) > Really!?!? What if you are Alphatian or Hulean? I think Alphatians and Huleans are not going to like you!! :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:09:48 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: Basic for beginners (was 2E vs 3E) I was curious. Originally, wasn't there some basic or intro into D&D3e. How about we create a basic simplified guide for Mystara?!? We can make this a netbook. Perhaps it can have a subset of the rules, weapons, etc. for the initial levels. Does this sound like a good idea? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:18:18 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: Dark Elves vs. Drow I think some of the initial supplements for Drow are decent. I loved the GDQ series. I thought it was great. There was this boxed set for FR that I thought was poorly done. BTW, who is Yuri Gellar? I'm not going to create the omnipotent Dark Elves. The effects could be achieved entirely with magic, if people are really strongly opposed to pscionics. BTW, the 3e Psionic's Handbook is really really good, and a lot more balanced that 2e version. And no there can't be a little boy that sends people to the cornfield. The powers in 3e are not way off scale like that. Check out that book if you get a chance. It's really good. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:22:44 -0700 From: David Keyser Subject: Blackmoor : [MYSTARA] 2E vs 3E macnerd wrote: > > > Either way, there are some meritable ideas from this system. Like > vitality points. I am curious though if people would want Blackmoor d20 > that used vitality points, or stuck with the more traditional hitpoint > system. Just so people on the MML are aware, Dave Arneson, who owns the rights to Blackmoor, is planning to release Blackmoor 3E, according to his website. It isn't clear if this new version of Blackmoor will actually be d20(OGL), or 3E(officially approved by WoTC). Unfortunately, Mr. Arneson had a stroke recently, but the website has indicated that he has almost fully recovered. No release dates are given though, and his website is not updated often. www.castleblackmoor.com Dave Keyser ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:33:58 -0400 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Dark Elves vs. Drow On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, macnerd wrote: > BTW, who is Yuri Gellar? A pseudo-psychic/mentalist, most noted for bending spoons and suing people who criticise or mock his 'powers'. Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:41:29 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: Dark Elves vs. Drow > LOL!!!! That's absolutely rich. I took sociology for years as a major > part of my degree and everyone on any RPG list seems to disregard or > disagree with everything I have to say on the subject. (BTW It's not > sour grapes, just incredibly ironic.) > > The great thing about gaming though is you can make things incredibly > fantastic or incredibly realistic and plausible. It all > depends on your > campaign style and preferences. Hence my Mystaran 'Drow' have > a totally > different origin from others. There's no spider deities. The > matriarchy > is not as tyrannical as every other GM I've met want to > portray it. The > culture is built on different assumptions. And no single, > random Drow is > ever a munchkin-slaying powerhouse. I would be interested to hear what you have created on you "Mystaran 'Drow'". From a perspective though, I would recommend eliminating the word 'Drow', as this word caries more meanings... :-> > It seems though that from my experience a lot of people into RPGs do > have a lot of interest in the development of cultures whether it is > self-taught, using Nat'l Geog as a staple source material for world > building, or using the bachelor's degree for that which it was never > intended. I think so to. Back in the day, TSR always welcomes playres and GMs alike to research history and to add this rich value to their campaign. It gives it an authentic feel and throws us into another world filled with rich imagination. > BTW, to me sociology and history were easy because they were > interesting > and the profs were great lecturers who could come up with involving > questions. Calculus was difficult because I couldn't > understand the guy > through the thick Eastern European accent. Noone's fault > that, just the > facts. I'm certain he was a genius. The only history class > that was hard > was because of one extremely bigotted T.A. whose own masters > thesis was > the answer to all the questions she corrected. Booo. Booo. Bad T.A.!!! I loved learning about history. I just did love the papers!!! I recently studied Russian history, and I can say it is really fascinating. I am mostly familar vaguely with western-european history, and easter-european history is something seldom covered. Through studying Russian history, this gave me some very valuable insights into the Principalities of Glantri and their form of government. This will grant me limitless ideas for political intrigue and adventures for Principalities of Glantri. I also understand why the economy, aristrocracy, and culture are different than their midieval counterparts in western europe. Russian suffered from the chicken and the egg problem, i.e. no money to buy crops, no inccentive to increase agricultural output as there would be no buyers. The other interesting points were that land was inherited and distributed equally amongst all of the sons. Thus, people would become poorer and poorer over time, and nobles would become peasants over time. There was another concept was that the land ruled by a prince, was completely and entirely the right of the prince (or tzar). The land and people on the land were property of the prince (or tsar). In western europe, there was a concept of a duty of the prince to the people, where as in Russia this didn't exist. This created a unique situation that formed the Principalities of Russia after the Kiev-Rus... Some of these ideas can be used in Glantri. :-) [snip] > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:50:56 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: Need some ideas "but the plague had to happen from being enclosed and not able to bury or destroy their dead effectively." Sorry, I tried, but I really don't understand this part. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of Jordi Castille > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 5:05 PM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Need some ideas > > > The problem with the great horde and this was discussed long > ago is that i was already talked about in the Orcs of Thar > Gazzeeteer about Uthgala and her great horde that went as far > as the Yazak Steepes and back to the Broken Lands ravaging > everything in sight. Whatever Moglai Khan could come up with > is small compared to the Great Horde. Ethengar laided siege > to the Heldannic Capital Freiburg for many many month to no > avail, the Horde of Ethengar may control the land around > Freiburg but Freiburg had the Air superiority and Ocean > advantage of getting supplies and reinforcements to outlast > the horde even without the plague, but the plague had to > happen from being enclosed and not able to bury or destroy > their dead effectively. That's why the idea of the Plague > made sense McNerd. > Jordi, > Knight of DarokinWhat about the great horde affect? Ethengar > was modeled by the > Mongelians. I'm sure they are just waiting to invade. IMC, I > modeled the Heldann Freehold as a cross between Turkey and > Hungarian Magyars. They are a very powerful maruading horde > as well, and they always kept the Ethengars in check and vice > versa. But after the Hattians did their Immortal-backed invasion, > Heldann is not in a position to act as a threat to Ethengar. > > Ethengar is poised to kick serious butt. Though in WotI, they > pull out the desease card. However, I don't like that one. :-< > I don't like the events played in WotI, so I dimiss it IMC. > > - Joaquin > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 19:42:30 +0200 From: Glim Garrick Subject: rockhome adventure Hi everybody, I am newbie to this list, playing ADND 2e for 10 years. Observing this mailing list I found about many new aspects of Mystara I have never thoght of. Being from Slovakia, Eastern Europe, it is terribly difficult for me to get any of those reference materials (cannon, non-cannon) you all are talking about (Gazes, DotE, WotI, GKoM, etc). Currently I am DMing party of great players with developed backgrounds. We are playing in Broken Lands under rule of Prince (actually King) Kol. Broken Lands are continually fighting with the rest of principalities of Glantri for independence. My players came up with idea that Broken Lands were place inhabited by dwarves mining magical ore (sort of mithril) ages ago. They suspect (and are actually right) the mines are still suitable for exploration and want to go to Rockhome to discuss the possibility to get some dwarven clans back to Broken Lands to refresh the production. Moreover the dwarves should help the country to fight out the Glantrian forces which gather on the borders of BL. The idea sounds interesting for me and I want to prepare high role-playing adventure in Rockhome. Players prepared the main negotiation points listed below but things will not go as simply as they plan (obviously). So I would like to know something more about politics of Rockhome as it is in AC 1015-18. I have not been able to find out anything but Almanac entries. I checked Vaults but found nothing of interest. Could someone help me with more than basic facts about Rockhome and perhaps offer some sort of plot which was actually used when adventuring in Rockhome? All your comments and remarks are more than welcome. Thanks. I plan to prepare short description of the plot and publish it here. The details of deal the party wants to negotiate: 1) To offer the dwarven clans possibility to inhabit their former kingdom 2) Rockhome will be compensated for every family removed 100 gp. 3) Rockhome will be given 10-20% of production of magic ore 4) Rockomers will be dealt with like free people (voting rights, the right to own lands, etc). 5) The place where dwarves remove will be under rule of dwarven clans which are allowed to establish its own regulation (only some restriction will exist) 6) The dwarves (males) will be part of regular army with its own ranks. Only the general of the army will be from Broken Land. 7) All casualties will be companseted from pension funds, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:02:49 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: rockhome adventure I'll give some comments. Since I'm at work and don't have access to my Rockhome Gaz, I'm short on details, but I'll let others (who will be more familiar with Rockhome) fill in the blanks. >> Hi everybody, I am newbie to this list, playing ADND 2e for 10 years. << Always nice to see new faces around here :) >> We are playing in Broken Lands under rule of Prince (actually King) Kol. Broken Lands are continually fighting with the rest of principalities of Glantri for independence. My players came up with idea that Broken Lands were place inhabited by dwarves mining magical ore (sort of mithril) ages ago. They suspect (and are actually right) the mines are still suitable for exploration and want to go to Rockhome to discuss the possibility to get some dwarven clans back to Broken Lands to refresh the production. Moreover the dwarves should help the country to fight out the Glantrian forces which gather on the borders of BL. << Are your PCs humanoids (orcs, goblins and such) unde Kol, or are they more traditional characters? I'll go with the assumption that they are humanoids unless you calrify. >> The idea sounds interesting for me and I want to prepare high role-playing adventure in Rockhome. Players prepared the main negotiation points listed below but things will not go as simply as they plan (obviously). So I would like to know something more about politics of Rockhome as it is in AC 1015-18. I have not been able to find out anything but Almanac entries. << Almanac entries will be all that you can find for these years. That being said I have a few ideas. No matter what (whether they are humanoids or not) the PCs are going to have a hard time convincing the Dwarves to join up with Prince Kol. The one thing that dwarves hate more than Glantrians are humanoids. If my PCs were going to attempt this, I would allow them to do so, but there would be 2 possible consequences: 1) The PCs proposal causes internal conflict in Rockhome society. Some of the more disposessed clans (like Wyrwarf) might be inclined to take them up on the deal. However other more traditional and military minded clans would not allow this to happen (The Torkrests, and Buhroder (sp?)). You may end up with a civil war on you hands at best. At worst, see #2 below. In any case things will progress to #2 eventually. 2) After hearing the proposal, the dwarves decide to mount an expidition and take back what is rightfully theirs by force. This will especially be the case if there is any proof of minable resources in the area. If there is no proof, the PCs should expect to encounter roving bands of dwarves trying to find such proof. Once the proof is found, then the dwarf armies will be on their way. Of course if the PCs are not themselves humaniods, then they might have some chance of success. However, if they are working for Kol I wouldn't hold my breath. I don't think there is a dwarf alive who would bow down to a kobold. -John ===== Rule #53. If the beautiful princess that I capture says "I'll never marry you! Never, do you hear me, NEVER!!!", I will say "Oh well" and kill her. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:45:57 -0700 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: A cool gaming session > The Karameikan war will turn out quite different > than I expected. Perhaps > no civil war at all, just "a righteous battle to > drive out the foreign > Nomad invaders". If only Staphen new of the deeds > that made this possible. > > Ville Very cool, sounds like my PC's. I do have one suggestion though. The general of the banner of the black eagle is a 24th level fighter that I would assume is loyal to Ludwig, and possibly thinking that if new rulership was appointed from outside the barony he and his army would be in a lot of trouble and so might continue as planned, or even do something else entirely (Maybe even ally with the nomads) but of course he won't know what has happened either. This is of cousre if he is not already dead. That goes for the 16th level cleric and all the rest of the army, many of witch are humanoid. This to me has always been the problem with taking out Ludwig, there is a lot of other badies out there just waiting to fill his shoes. To destroy the BE barony you actually have to get someone good in their who is not just led around and has some power. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 21:35:21 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: rockhome adventure Glim Garrick wrote: > > Hi everybody, > I am newbie to this list, playing ADND 2e for 10 years. Welcome! > So I would > like to know something more about politics of Rockhome as it is in AC > 1015-18. I have not been able to find out anything but Almanac entries. I > checked Vaults but found nothing of interest. Could someone help me with > more than basic facts about Rockhome and perhaps offer some sort of plot > which was actually used when adventuring in Rockhome? All your comments and > remarks are more than welcome. Thanks. Ok, the basic Rockhome political "parties" are the same as the Clans: Everast Royalists, a clan of bureaucrats that fully support the king Buhrohdar This clan is aligned with the priesthood of Kagyar, and is a close ally of the Everast Torkrest Military clan, more or less ally with Everast, very traditionalist. Certain factions call for the oppression of farmers (the Wyrwarf), and make terrorist attacks to the Wyrwarf holdings. Syrklist Mercantilistic, basically they balance the Torkrest conservatorism among the major factions. Skarrad Technocrats, often support the Syrklist. At odds with the religious Buhrohdar. Sort of "liberal" left-wingers. Wyrwarf Farmers and outcasts, basically neutral to other clans, but often with a strongly reformist attitude. Hurwarf Extreme traditionalists and isolationists, opposed to everyone who supports contact with other nations, expecially the Syrklist. Sometimes friendly with the Torkrest. Torkrest and Syrklist are the major factions, though Everast and Buhrohdar compensate with close alliance. Skarrad and Hurwarf are pretty small, while Wyrwarf is larger but wield less influence. That said, the dwarves are quite unlikely to cooperate with goblinoids (who are their age-long enemies). Their main foreign liasons are with the Ethengar and the Werewolves of Morlay-Malinbois. Ylaruam and Vestland have treaties (either written or unspoken agreement) and have cooperated in the past with Rockhome as well. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:13:22 -0400 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Basic for beginners (was 2E vs 3E) This project is already underway. ----- Original Message ----- From: "macnerd" To: Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Basic for beginners (was 2E vs 3E) > I was curious. Originally, wasn't there some > basic or intro into D&D3e. How about we create a > basic simplified guide for Mystara?!? We can > make this a netbook. Perhaps it can have a > subset of the rules, weapons, etc. for the > initial levels. > > Does this sound like a good idea? > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:40:47 -0700 From: Mike Harvey Subject: Re: Basic for beginners (was 2E vs 3E) By whom? Is it a d20 "converson" of BD&D, or what? We want details! ;-) Mike ---- Original Message ---- From: deustace@ATTBI.COM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM, Subject: Re: Basic for beginners (was 2E vs 3E) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:13:22 -0400 > This project is already underway. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "macnerd" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 1:09 PM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Basic for beginners (was 2E vs 3E) > > >> I was curious. Originally, wasn't there some >> basic or intro into D&D3e. How about we create a >> basic simplified guide for Mystara?!? We can >> make this a netbook. Perhaps it can have a >> subset of the rules, weapons, etc. for the >> initial levels. >> >> Does this sound like a good idea? >> >> > ******************************************************************** >> The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp >> The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ >> To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM >> with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. >> >> > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > -- Mike Harvey -- Beaverton, OR http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 22:24:12 -0400 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Basic for beginners (was 2E vs 3E) No, its not a conversion. I was referring to the Beginner's Guide (Newbie Guide) under development, which isn't specific to any gaming system, AFAIK. You're on the Yahoo Group members list, so you probably know more about it that I do. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Harvey" To: Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Basic for beginners (was 2E vs 3E) > By whom? Is it a d20 "converson" of BD&D, or what? > We want details! ;-) > > Mike > > ---- Original Message ---- > From: deustace@ATTBI.COM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM, > Subject: Re: Basic for beginners (was 2E vs 3E) > Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:13:22 -0400 > > >This project is already underway. > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "macnerd" > >To: > >Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 1:09 PM > >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Basic for beginners (was 2E vs 3E) > > > > > >> I was curious. Originally, wasn't there some > >> basic or intro into D&D3e. How about we create a > >> basic simplified guide for Mystara?!? We can > >> make this a netbook. Perhaps it can have a > >> subset of the rules, weapons, etc. for the > >> initial levels. > >> > >> Does this sound like a good idea? > >> > >> > >******************************************************************** > >> The Other Worlds Homepage: > >http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > >> The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > >> To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > >> with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > >> > >> > > > >******************************************************************** > >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > >The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > -- > Mike Harvey -- Beaverton, OR > http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:21:59 -0700 From: Jordi Castille Subject: Flame Wars of the past I don't mean to stop anyone here unnecessarily, but I don't want this to erupt into yet another flame war. Geoff There has been flame wars in the past, when i first came here it was the arguement over Ethangar's Horde in a campaing and how it should relate to Genghis Khan Horde, instead of Attila the Hun's, why i thought it was since Ethangar's horde is small compared to the great goblinoid horde that was mentioned in mystara's history that turned into a historical arguement over why is Genghis's Horde about to conquer through southern asia, India and the Muslim Caliphs of Baghdad and Istanbul. The there was a flame war or most likely an arguement over using Psionics in the campaign. This is like any other flame war, besides, it keeps the MML busy and active. Jordi Castille. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:32:33 -0700 From: Jordi Castille Subject: Re: A cool gaming session Interesting, but i would have had Baron Von Hendricks assaulting the shires, making a pest of himself, preventing them from aiding Darokin, which was being assaulted by the Hule/Sindhi army. Ville_V_Lähde wrote: We had a wonderful gaming session last night, and I had to share this with someone... Sometimes it can be really cool when the players surprise the DM. A few days ago I asked for help for the Karameikos events that take place during the X10 adventure. I got some good advice, thanks a lot. Well, now two of the PCs (the group separated temporarily to get allies more quickly) begun their latest adventures in Karameikos. While designing this section of the adventure I decided that it was time to get rid of Black Eagle once and for all - after all, that's the main point in the text official adventure too. I have changed a lot, a lot, in the adventure, but this goal suited me and the future of the campaign well. But things don't always work the way we DMs think they might. I wrote the Karameikos section to be very open-eded, mainly because those two PCs are the most unpredictable of the whole bunch. They are very resouceable and have much less moral scruples than the others. So I'd have to be prepared for surorising decisions and strategien on their part. As I wrote earlier, I decided that Hendricks had made a deal with the Nomads. The Nomads sent two Divisions to help Hendricks take over the country, and for that Hendricks would join them in the ongoing Great War. But, behind the scenes the Nomads had made a deal with Bargle, too. After the conlfict Bargle would take up the reigns of power, Hendricks ending up either dead or a magical puppet. Hendricks had found this out, however. He had purchased some exquisite magical mind-protection and would try to contact the PCs- his plan was to betray the plans of the Nomads and Bargle to them. Ideally, the PCs would assassinate Bargle and the Karameikan armies would ambush the Nomad Divisions. Then, after bloody battles, Hendricks could use his own troops to capture power of to expand his holdings. (Depending on the degreee the Karameikan army would be weakened in destroying the Nomads - the Elvenguard is of course the most important factor here.) The latter part of the plan Hendricks would of course keep secret from the PCs (remember the mind shielding). The obvious problem here is of course that most PCs would be more likely to kill Hendricks too, after he had revealed his plans. So, Hendricks had gathered a hundred former slaver of Iron Ring and would use them as hostages while negotiating with the PCs. But the PCs were way ahead of me. Instead of waiting for Hendricks to arrive in Specularum for negotiations, they (with clever use of their intelligence gathering resources) ambushed Hendricks, Bargle, their retinue and the Nomad ambassadors on the Westron road. Fearing the halfling pirates Hendricks had decided to take the land route. The PCs and their trusted allies managed to gain total surprise. Bargle was killed before he could utter a single magical incantation, and many of the dangerous Nomad agents were decapacitated. (Note: I made the fight really really hard, almost impossible, but the PCs have learned well...) To their surprise Hendricks reacted to the attack by shouting to the PC thief: "Well now that you bastards started this, make damn sure that you finish off every last one of them!" After a dangerous but quick battle only Hendircks and his bodyguards remained, and Hendricks called for negotiations. Hendricks told the PCs something of his previous plans. My idea at this stage (note: I had to react to a very sudden and surprising situation!) was that Hendricks would offer to lure the Nomads to a suitable position, in order to attack them from two directions. Of course his intention was to leave the Karameikans to fight the Nomads alone and then attack himself. But due to the mind-shielding (a permanent enchantment), the PCs were unsure whether to buy this. Well, while I went out for a cigarette and to think about my next actions, the players of the PCs reached a surprising decision. They decided to disregard the threat made by Hendricks ("if you hurt me, those 100 slaves will die horribly"), and the thief PC plain and simply poisoned Hendricks! They them killed the remaining bodyguards, cleaned the road of bodies and burned all the corpses. Note: This was made possible only by the fact that it was just these two PCs who were on the scene. And by the fact that they had selected just the right allied who would have no trouble doing this. Still this came as a surprise. A fitting ending for those two old villains, nonetheless. Bargle the Infamous, killed by two strikes to his back, by a thief who used to dream of killing the wizards 10 years ago. Hendricks, finished without a trace of heroism, convulsing and screaming, like so many of his victims. The best part is that the PCs made a decision that they shall tell nobody about this! Now the situation is that Stephan Karameikos is waiting for his cousin to visit him - a visit that will never take place... The Karameikan war will turn out quite different than I expected. Perhaps no civil war at all, just "a righteous battle to drive out the foreign Nomad invaders". If only Staphen new of the deeds that made this possible. Ville ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:58:34 -0700 From: Jordi Castille Subject: Re: Dark Elves Roger Girtman wrote: Shadow Elves are not Drow... Dark Elves are not Drow... Yes, there was a small consensus a long time ago that there was a VERY small enclave of Drow underneath the one plateau, but none of my PCs are ever going there... Maybe a comprimise is in order: Yes the Drow are in Mystara, they were gated there from Faerun, but there is no entrance/exit for them to have contact with any Mystara race (on a regular basis--this suggestion may be temporary disallowed for one-time adventure oportunities if the DM so desires, but of course a convenient cave-in will once again trap the hitherto unknown Drow in their underdark prison as soon as the adventure is over). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's fine and dandy for those that want to run the GDQ series module, i would prefer that they be a small enclave of drow agents, but not from Toril. They could come from some other world outside of Mystara, inside the Mystaran Cosmos. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also, before I go (if u haven't deleted this post already) somone mentioned the Drow's matriarchal society as being a DIFFERENCE between them and the Shadow Elves/Schattenalfen--this is not true, as the latter are also matriarchal (the White Shaman and Radiant Shaman are always female), just not to the same extent... .--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's True but they don't rule the city of the star, King Telemon does. That's why i said the Shadow Elves aren't matriarchal, as for the Idea of Kurotiku as a patron for the Drow, being a spider, would not work, Drow are Matriarchal, they would need Lolithor as a version of Lolth, all i am saying is that the Drow are more nastier than the Shadow Elves, because from reading the Almanacs, it looks like Shadow Elves of Aengmor, (former Alfheim) are starting to get more and more friendly with Darokin and I am beginning to guess it would be long before they may be the next nation to join the WDL. Jordi Castille. mktriton.tripod.com/index.html Recent additions: the Lost tombs of greyhawk converted for those wishing to play those modules on Mystara in the Known world region. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 02:25:47 -0400 From: Michael McConnell Subject: Glantri & monsters Thanks for the tips everyone. I especially like the brain collector idea, I hadn't read that article. I was thinking of bringing in nightmare creatures into Etienne's dreamscape (seems to make a bit more sense to me), plus one of the wizards is also a Dream Master. What sort of things have people been doing in a Glantri campaign, anyhow? Obviously I'm getting set to run Mark of Amber, with severe modifications. Things are turning mainly political now that the party is getting close to twentieth level now. One person is getting their county underway so that they can join the Brotherhood of the Radiance, the others are going to get dragged into politics whether they like it or not (romance and inheritance, respectively). I was just sort of curious what other sorts of things people have done with the setting. ________________________________________________________________ Get your own evilemail.com address at http://www.evilemail.com ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 14 Apr 2002 to 15 Apr 2002 (#2002-103) ****************************************************************