Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 18 Apr 2002 to 19 Apr 2002 (#2002-107) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 20/04/2002, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 14 messages totalling 929 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Week without Magic & Day of Dread (2) 2. Why Drow cant fit in Mystara? (2) 3. Light vs. Dark (7) 4. Air Power (2) 5. Hobgoblin Adventure (was Light vs Dark) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:38:13 +0200 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Week without Magic & Day of Dread Alfred O'Meagher wrote: > If the "canon" as some on the list call it was at all internally = consistent > some of this would make sense. As it is not internally consistent, = none of > this means much. Ah. But if you truly believe that, then certainly you have no more = reason saying that the Radiance equals magic, than I have saying it = doesn't. Well, I have posted much of what canon has to say on the = Radiance, people can draw their own conclusions. > I think your retroactive continuity research is very impressive = nonetheless. Thank you. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:01:31 -0400 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Why Drow cant fit in Mystara? On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, macnerd wrote: > Note, there was some reference to how elves were blamed for the Great Rain > of Fire. Though no one knows for sure. I think you're mistaken. You may be confusing the Elves' accidental creation of the Broken Lands via detonation of a nuclear device. Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:01:43 +1000 From: Alfred O'Meagher Subject: Re: Week without Magic & Day of Dread > If the "canon" as some on the list call it was at all internally consistent > some of this would make sense. As it is not internally consistent, none of > this means much. Ah. But if you truly believe that, then certainly you have no more reason saying that the Radiance equals magic, than I have saying it doesn't. Well, I have posted much of what canon has to say on the Radiance, people can draw their own conclusions. And I agree. I don't want to maintain an Alfonse and Gaston love-in on this, so adios from me on the topic. > I think your retroactive continuity research is very impressive nonetheless. Thank you. De rien. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 16:22:33 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Light vs. Dark My email was not intended as bashing on Christianity. On the contrary, my point is that the good-evil dualism that is found in western thinking today mostly has its roots in christianity. A "good" person in ancient greece would be a happy, rich, strong or brave person, not a kind or merciful one. Similary concepts can be used to understand Viking society. Whether Western Society today can be considered Christian or not isnt really relevant. The fact remains that Christianity has left considerable marks on our culture. This is important if we want to understand and/protray Viking elements in Mystara, especially when dealing with complex characters such as Odin and Loki, or when dealing with ravens, wolves, giants and monsters. We can impose a good/evil axis on the norse stuff we want to fit into Mystara, but it may lose some very interesting aspects if we do that. Havard PS: I can see this quickly leading to a flamewar so i will be careful with commenting on further postings to this thread. Please understand that it is not my intention to offend anyone. --- Just Another Grue skrev: > Please don't go blaming Christianity for "good" and > "evil" as concepts. > The idea that Christianity is responsible for this > seeming dualism is a > populist misconception propogated for the last four > decades by people > who haven't done their research. So the Vikings > didn't know about good > and evil before Christian contact? According to most > critics of > Christianity at the dawn of the religion 2000 years > ago the concepts > were an amalgam of Greek, Egyptian and other mystery > cult relgions. > > Besides, today the populist western culture is > clearly non-Christian > (despite the loud presence of televangelists and > political idiots) and > has co-opted and mangled several major > religio-social belief structures > to the extent that modern people only THINK > something is Christian. > > havardfaa@YAHOO.NO wrote: > > > --- Jacob Skytte skrev: > > > > > >Note that the concepts of Good and Evil are > Christian > >ideas. In the good old viking days, people did not > >understand such ideas. More important was family, > >loyality, friends and enemies. But enemies were not > >neccesarily seen as evil. Indeed it would be > >considered a great honor to fight a glorious and > >honorable enemy. Much more so than to hunt down and > >slay a miserable cowardly swine. (even though that > too > >had to be done from time to time). > > > >Another thing to keep in mind is that everything > that > >is written down about norse myths is written by > >christians (Most of it by Snorri Sturlason), and he > >tried to fit alot of things into his own > Christian-ish > >world view. > > > >However, Giants, wolves and ravens were definately > >things to be feared and to stay away from, and if > >unavoidable, just go out and kill. > > > >Havard > > > > ______________________________________________________ > >Sjekk snørapporter... > >fra 500 ski-destinasjoner i Europa > >på http://no.snow.yahoo.com/ > > > > ******************************************************************** > >The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > >The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > >To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ______________________________________________________ Sjekk snørapporter... fra 500 ski-destinasjoner i Europa på http://no.snow.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 12:55:17 -0300 From: Just Another Grue Subject: Re: Light vs. Dark No, no, no. I did not take it as Christianity bashing. :-) I just want you to check your facts when talking about a real culture/people just as we try to check the facts before we do any piece of dev't for Mystara. Zoroastrianism is a dualism. Christianity isn't. The Albigensians, in one or more versions of the story, (amongst others) were wiped out in a crusade for dualistic heresy. (It's more complicated than that of course... power, money, talking severed heads in boxes, the bloodline of Christ, weird stuff like that, etc.) havardfaa@YAHOO.NO wrote: > My email was not intended as bashing on Christianity. > On the contrary, my point is that the good-evil > dualism that is found in western thinking today mostly > has its roots in christianity. A "good" person in > ancient greece would be a happy, rich, strong or brave > person, not a kind or merciful one. Similary concepts > can be used to understand Viking society. > ..... > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:07:09 -0700 From: Jordi Castille Subject: Re: Air Power Agathokles wrote: Anyway, just to give an overview of air powers as described in this thread: Alphatia (Skynavy) Thyatis (RAF, KoA) HK (Warbirds) Serraine (Flying City, various smaller crafts) Glantri (Zeppelin, Volospin's contraption) Hule (Flying Barge, some undead) Wyrmsteeth (Dragons...) and, in the Hollow World, Nithia (Flying Barges) Oostdok (Zeppelins). Outside Mystara: Myoshima (flying sabretooth tigers) -- Looking at Alphatia's aerial superiority in the past, why did they after 2000 years of existance even attempt ot use air power to conquer more of Skothar, I would have thought they might have been able to take over more than that if they have the better sky war machines, then again, they were the largest empire in the known world then. Kind makes me wonder about Sun Tsu's book "The Art of War." IIRC Stating that those with the highest ground or in the air, need little defense and have the offensive advantage do to their position against the archers. Anyway, i am just wondering way Alphatia did expand east with their air superiority. Jordi Castille. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 12:13:11 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: Light vs. Dark Andrés, I think your comments are really well said!! ^_^ I use detect evil in much the same way: it determines the intent at the moment. This also allows things to remain a mystery when paladin's are in the story. The GM can have more plot development power, instead of having the Paladin solve the mystery by just detecting evil. I have a question for the group: Does Mystara have to include good/evil alignment to be D&D3e? - Joaquin > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of Andrés Piquer Otero > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:16 PM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Light vs. Dark > > (snip) > > > IMO (and academic knowledge), Good/Evil dualism is not > Christian-made, it's quite older and, in fact, dualism is > quite away from modern (Middle Ages onwards) official > non-heterodox Christianism, in which even Evil exists > because of divine providence . On the other hand, certain concepts we > associate with good-evil strife, like sin, guilt, expiation, > atonement, meekness as a form of Good virtue... are quite > Judaic/Christian in origin or > at least in the development which is familiar now to us Westerns. > I'd venture that the Law-Chaos opposition is quite older, and > if such a thing exists, is quite closer to being a "universal" motif, > if only because it integrates Cosmical considerations (world-order and sense) > with personal and social ones (the meaning of self > and one's place in the universe). > > That makes a Law vs. Chaos only, like Mystara's, quite a > happier idea for an > alignment system: personal considerations are connected to > cosmical ones, > and cosmical stuff plays a big role in a FRPG (Outer Plane > monsters, aligned > magicks, nature powers, etc, etc.). Introducing the Evil/Good > axis is a good > way or murking up things, as many of those concepts, as > handled in AD&D are > in fact inspired by concrete philosophical concepts > (especially Christian > ones), which makes it hard to integrate in a diverse-belief > and fantastic > setting as Mystara... > > Not to start alignment old flame war... i use the good/evil axis in my > campaigns, but only as a role-playing guideline. Detect Evil > , for instance, > detects evil intent in a particular moment, but not alignment (even of > Outsiders): the big cosmic things, like demons, churches or > aligned spells, > are worked upon Law and Chaos and the Spheres. > > Andrés > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 12:17:59 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: Why Drow cant fit in Mystara? I remember something vaguely from one of the DDA modules. I use to have them all before my mom through some of my books, and the storage place confinscated my other belongings. :-( If I had the books I could look it up. :-( Though, the accidental incident later was mentioned I think in the Glantri GAZ. My reference is one of the DDA, perhaps City of the Gods. I cannot remember exactly. Either way, my point can remain the same. The Dark Elf faction following Lloth (or the other cool name someone mentioned), could simply hate surface dwellers for creating the Great Rain of Fire. Whether elves were involved or not, just adds more plot dynamics. Perhaps PCs caused it accidently. :-) One of them was most likely an elf... > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of SteelAngel > Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 6:02 AM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Why Drow cant fit in Mystara? > > > On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, macnerd wrote: > > > Note, there was some reference to how elves were blamed for > the Great Rain > > of Fire. Though no one knows for sure. > > I think you're mistaken. You may be confusing the Elves' accidental > creation of the Broken Lands via detonation of a nuclear device. > > > Ethan > > -- > Kinard 210 Linux Guru > Webmaster www.steelangel.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 20:25:16 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Air Power Jordi Castille wrote: > > Looking at Alphatia's aerial superiority in the past, why did they after 2000 years of existance even attempt ot use air power to conquer more of Skothar, My idea is that Alphatia never expanded that much because of a combination of factors: 1) Alphatia has, and always had, only a limited population, over a quite large territory. 2) A large part of the population of Alphatia is composed of slaves, who need to be constantly kept under control, diverting much resources from the army, and keeping it spread over the vast Alphatian territory. 3) The Alphatian Empire is composed of many rival kingdoms. Intra-empire war have always been common. 4) Skothar includes large steppes, which are of little use for the Alphatians, so they concentrated over the better lands of the Known World and the IoD. 5) In the last millennium, Alphatians have been forced to divert most of their forces to keep the Thyatian Empire from conquering the IoD. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 16:25:51 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Light vs. Dark Macnerd (I think) wrote: > Exactly!!! Maybe even a person can be evil and one point and > good at another point. Maybe one can be kind and gentle to > one group and evil, vindictive, and sadistic to another > group. Is that person evil or good? > > The same person's acts of compassion and generosity could show > no bounds, but yet to the demonized group, his cruelity could > strike fear in anybody apart of that group. Perhaps that > demonized group are truly innocent scapegoated victems. Good point. IMC, one of the PCs (the longest-serving one, in fact) is pursuing a genocidal campaign against hobgoblins. Not orcs, not kobolds (but she will go all out if they attack her); this PC will actively seek out hobgoblin lairs and try to exterminate them. To local villagers and other non-humanoids, she's a hero, and the scalps she collects are testament to her efforts to "keep the countryside safe". To the hobgoblins, no doubt, the PC is a ruthless, evil killer, who will even go as far as to wipe out females and whelps, since, in her view, one hobgoblin is too many. The PC's reasoning for her actions are that her first party was wiped out during a hobgoblin ambush - a couple of her closest friends died that day, and as the only survivor, she feels that their deaths must be avenged. Now is the PC evil? Depends on who you ask. Just an example of the "good/evil" dichotomy that can exist. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:19:47 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: Light vs. Dark On the Hobgoblin issue, I have an idea... Have some religious order, convert a band of hobgoblins to their benevolent religion. The Hobgoblins see the light, and are truly sincere, humble, and compassionate. Though, the villagers always wrongly suspect the true nature of the Hobgoblins. Some incident happens where some villagers are killed, and some of the hobgoblins were on the scene. The only survivors, were a/some Hobgoblin(s) and one boy's pet. The villagers demand the death of the hobgoblins. The PCs are sent into investigate and bring the hobgoblins to justice. The town will want the hobgoblins captured, brought to trial, and then publicly executed. Though the PCs have full discretion and can smite them if they encounter resistance. However, in actuality, the hobgoblins are really innocent, and they are indeed kind. They may have been framed by a diabolical Baron that scapegoats the gentle hobgoblins for his own nefarious and ambitious plans. If the PCs attack the Hobgoblins and kill them outright, they will undoubtedly make enemies of the church. The Church has a lot of credibility, and have managed to keep the hobgoblins from being slayed out right. The knights (and/or paladins) will defend them, but upon a signed/stamped writ from the Baron (naturally :), will have to release the Hobgoblins into the hands of the PCs. The PCs can do as they wish. They could arrange an accident during transportation of the Hobgoblins. However, in any event, the Hobgoblins will refuse to defend themselves, as they are complete pacifists. They will always be humble and perhaps even grovel and pray for penance. If a crafty GM role-plays the Hobgoblins out well, the PCs might even feel guilty. The PCs at their discretion can do a thorough investigation, or not do one at all. The villagers will be all to happy and entertained to see the Hobgoblins executed. If the Hobgoblins are imprisoned, awaiting their quick trial and execution, many villagers visit the Hobgoblins, curse at them, throw food at them. The guards might even let some villagers in to beat the crap out of the Hobgoblins. At some point, a loan boy somehow gets in the cell, and the Hobgoblin does nothing to harm the boy, and actually plays with the boy and bounces him in the air. The dog that was at the scene is totally peaceful around the Hobgoblin. When the Baron visits the Hobgoblin, the dog barks viciously at the Baron, and his guards. The dog has to be subdued, and taken outside when the Baron comes around. The villagers don't bother to notice, but the PCs should almost certainly will. This can be a whole contest of good/evil. Though, the alignment does not need to be specified. The Baron is obviously evil, while the Hobgoblins are good. The villagers, well, just do what simple villagers do best. :-) When the villagers think about the Hobgoblin, they have "evil" thoughts, detectable by a Paladin. Otherwise, they do not have evil thoughts. The Baron always has "evil" thoughts, and when the Hobgoblins see the Baron, they might also have "evil" thoughts; though they won't act upon it, for they have been well tutored by the priests. Conclusions: If the Hobgoblins are eliminated, and the Baron goes unchecked, he'll will become ruthless. He'll try to arrange for accidents for the paladins, knights, and priests. The PCs could be asked to stick around, as other hobgoblins could be nearby. The player's will notice the absurd accidents befall on noble priests and knights. Later the Baron will try to abduct various virgin girls that are coming of age for his own pleasures. He will over tax the peasants, and commit daily atrocities. If the Hobgoblins are still alive, they will not participate in any violence, unless under extreme duress where the life of an innocent is jeopardized. If the PCs become too meddlesome, some accidents can be arranged for the party. The party should have a good chance to escape or survive ambushes and planned accidents. Some traps can be triggered before PC may trigger it. A villager swipes the PCs drink, drinks down in a gulp, and soon collapses as the drink was poisoned. The PCs can get the point (pun intended) that someone is after them. Though they can go against the Baron without proof, or they'll be branded as criminals. - Joaquin PS - How's that for a blurred good/evil plot w/o alignment? > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of Geoff Gander > Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 1:26 PM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Light vs. Dark > > > Macnerd (I think) wrote: > > >Exactly!!! Maybe even a person can be evil and one point and > >good at another point. Maybe one can be kind and gentle to > >one group and evil, vindictive, and sadistic to another > >group. Is that person evil or good? > > > >The same person's acts of compassion and generosity could show > >no bounds, but yet to the demonized group, his cruelity could > >strike fear in anybody apart of that group. Perhaps that > >demonized group are truly innocent scapegoated victems. > > Good point. IMC, one of the PCs (the longest-serving one, in fact) is > pursuing a genocidal campaign against hobgoblins. Not orcs, > not kobolds > (but she will go all out if they attack her); this PC will > actively seek > out hobgoblin lairs and try to exterminate them. To local > villagers and > other non-humanoids, she's a hero, and the scalps she collects are > testament to her efforts to "keep the countryside safe". To the > hobgoblins, no doubt, the PC is a ruthless, evil killer, who > will even go > as far as to wipe out females and whelps, since, in her view, one > hobgoblin is too many. The PC's reasoning for her actions > are that her > first party was wiped out during a hobgoblin ambush - a couple of her > closest friends died that day, and as the only survivor, she > feels that > their deaths must be avenged. Now is the PC evil? Depends > on who you ask. > > Just an example of the "good/evil" dichotomy that can exist. > > Geoff > > -- > Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 > Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer > Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy > au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:41:54 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: Light vs. Dark Havard, Awesome points!!! I think I understand your comments, especially in regards to pre-Christian and post-Christian concepts of good/evil in the Northern region of Europe. Note to everyone, is that whether or not Christianity invented or promulgated various good-evil concepts, Christianity did affect these concepts where Christianity was introduced in different regions. In the Scandinavia, there was the Norse pantheon and a different set of beliefs, but later Christianity was introduced and those concepts and beliefs were changed and evolved into what it is today... One can suspect that a strong belief from Christianity in what is good and evil was introduced (and sometimes imposed). However, to shove good-evil axis to a pre-Christian Norse society, or other societies detracts from the richness that such a campaign and culture can offer. The good-evil concept is found to differ from group to group and from victor to the defeated. IMHO, to blanket all cultures with one cultures beliefs detracts from the whole FRP experience and Mystara experience > My email was not intended as bashing on Christianity. > On the contrary, my point is that the good-evil > dualism that is found in western thinking today mostly > has its roots in christianity. A "good" person in > ancient greece would be a happy, rich, strong or brave > person, not a kind or merciful one. Similary concepts > can be used to understand Viking society. > > Whether Western Society today can be considered > Christian or not isnt really relevant. The fact > remains that Christianity has left considerable marks > on our culture. > > This is important if we want to understand and/protray > Viking elements in Mystara, especially when dealing > with complex characters such as Odin and Loki, or when > dealing with ravens, wolves, giants and monsters. > > We can impose a good/evil axis on the norse stuff we > want to fit into Mystara, but it may lose some very > interesting aspects if we do that. I don't think the idea was to impose good/evil axis on Norse stuff to make it Mystara, as I get a feeling that many support sticking with only chaos/order axis. This is my idea too. I think the question was does Mystara have to have good/evil axis to be 3e? Should good/evil axis be used in Mystara? The good/evil axis is apart of AD&D, and is still apart of D&D3e. The Mystara 3e folks though were not open to eliminating good/evil axis as apart of Mystara-3e. My personal thoughts on this is that shoving good/evil into Mystara, will detract from the various cultures in Mystara, including the mini-Norse areas like GAZ7 Northern Reaches. (snip) I want to thank people for discussing this. I will add further comments to Mystara 3e on this matter. - Joaquin Menchaca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:59:13 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Hobgoblin Adventure (was Light vs Dark) On the Hobgoblin issue, I have an idea... Have some religious order, convert a band of hobgoblins to their benevolent religion. The Hobgoblins see the light, and are truly sincere, humble, and compassionate. Though, the villagers always wrongly suspect the true nature of the Hobgoblins. Some incident happens where some villagers are killed, and some of the hobgoblins were on the scene. The only survivors, were a/some Hobgoblin(s) and one boy's pet. The villagers demand the death of the hobgoblins. The PCs are sent into investigate and bring the hobgoblins to justice. The town will want the hobgoblins captured, brought to trial, and then publicly executed. Though the PCs have full discretion and can smite them if they encounter resistance. However, in actuality, the hobgoblins are really innocent, and they are indeed kind. They may have been framed by a diabolical Baron that scapegoats the gentle hobgoblins for his own nefarious and ambitious plans. If the PCs attack the Hobgoblins and kill them outright, they will undoubtedly make enemies of the church. The Church has a lot of credibility, and have managed to keep the hobgoblins from being slayed out right. The knights (and/or paladins) will defend them, but upon a signed/stamped writ from the Baron (naturally :), will have to release the Hobgoblins into the hands of the PCs. The PCs can do as they wish. They could arrange an accident during transportation of the Hobgoblins. However, in any event, the Hobgoblins will refuse to defend themselves, as they are complete pacifists. They will always be humble and perhaps even grovel and pray for penance. If a crafty GM role-plays the Hobgoblins out well, the PCs might even feel guilty. The PCs at their discretion can do a thorough investigation, or not do one at all. The villagers will be all to happy and entertained to see the Hobgoblins executed. If the Hobgoblins are imprisoned, awaiting their quick trial and execution, many villagers visit the Hobgoblins, curse at them, throw food at them. The guards might even let some villagers in to beat the crap out of the Hobgoblins. At some point, a loan boy somehow gets in the cell, and the Hobgoblin does nothing to harm the boy, and actually plays with the boy and bounces him in the air. The dog that was at the scene is totally peaceful around the Hobgoblin. When the Baron visits the Hobgoblin, the dog barks viciously at the Baron, and his guards. The dog has to be subdued, and taken outside when the Baron comes around. The villagers don't bother to notice, but the PCs should almost certainly will. This can be a whole contest of good/evil. Though, the alignment does not need to be specified. The Baron is obviously evil, while the Hobgoblins are good. The villagers, well, just do what simple villagers do best. :-) When the villagers think about the Hobgoblin, they have "evil" thoughts, detectable by a Paladin. Otherwise, they do not have evil thoughts. The Baron always has "evil" thoughts, and when the Hobgoblins see the Baron, they might also have "evil" thoughts; though they won't act upon it, for they have been well tutored by the priests. Conclusions: If the Hobgoblins are eliminated, and the Baron goes unchecked, he'll will become ruthless. He'll try to arrange for accidents for the paladins, knights, and priests. The PCs could be asked to stick around, as other hobgoblins could be nearby. The player's will notice the absurd accidents befall on noble priests and knights. Later the Baron will try to abduct various virgin girls that are coming of age for his own pleasures. He will over tax the peasants, and commit daily atrocities. If the Hobgoblins are still alive, they will not participate in any violence, unless under extreme duress where the life of an innocent is jeopardized. If the PCs become too meddlesome, some accidents can be arranged for the party. The party should have a good chance to escape or survive ambushes and planned accidents. Some traps can be triggered before PC may trigger it. A villager swipes the PCs drink, drinks down in a gulp, and soon collapses as the drink was poisoned. The PCs can get the point (pun intended) that someone is after them. Though they can go against the Baron without proof, or they'll be branded as criminals. - Joaquin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:34:43 -0300 From: Andre Martins Subject: Re: Light vs. Dark I actually planned quite sometime ago to create a number of aligment spells, based on which Immortal had inspired them. Basically, each Immortal would set the rules for his own flock on what is good and evil and that would be what those spells would detect. The hobgoblin patron would grant a very different set of rules for his spell than a Immortal who directly opposes and fights humanoids. But I haven't gone any further than deciding on rules for the Immortals that I needed in my campaign (mostly PC's patrons). The way I see it, regardless of whether good and evil are absolute ore relative concepts (I'll not enter that discussion here), each Immortal does have his point of view about it and he will want to make it sure that is respected y his priests. So, at some point in his career, each Immortal must set rules for his own detect spells. Incidentally, you can always drop a detect aligment scroll among some treasure, but one that follows a set of rules that will cause the most mischief when the PCs use it... ----- Original Message ----- > Macnerd (I think) wrote: > > >Exactly!!! Maybe even a person can be evil and one point and > >good at another point. Maybe one can be kind and gentle to > >one group and evil, vindictive, and sadistic to another > >group. Is that person evil or good? > > > >The same person's acts of compassion and generosity could show > >no bounds, but yet to the demonized group, his cruelity could > >strike fear in anybody apart of that group. Perhaps that > >demonized group are truly innocent scapegoated victems. > > Good point. IMC, one of the PCs (the longest-serving one, in fact) is > pursuing a genocidal campaign against hobgoblins. Not orcs, not kobolds > (but she will go all out if they attack her); this PC will actively seek > out hobgoblin lairs and try to exterminate them. To local villagers and > other non-humanoids, she's a hero, and the scalps she collects are > testament to her efforts to "keep the countryside safe". To the > hobgoblins, no doubt, the PC is a ruthless, evil killer, who will even go > as far as to wipe out females and whelps, since, in her view, one > hobgoblin is too many. The PC's reasoning for her actions are that her > first party was wiped out during a hobgoblin ambush - a couple of her > closest friends died that day, and as the only survivor, she feels that > their deaths must be avenged. Now is the PC evil? Depends on who you ask. > > Just an example of the "good/evil" dichotomy that can exist. > > Geoff > ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 18 Apr 2002 to 19 Apr 2002 (#2002-107) ****************************************************************