Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 19 Apr 2002 to 20 Apr 2002 (#2002-108) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 21/04/2002, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 6 messages totalling 514 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Endless Armies 2. Air Power (3) 3. Gods and Immortals - Long (Was: Re: [MYSTARA] Deities and Demigods 3e) 4. Gods and Immortals - Long (Was: Re: [MYSTARA] Deities and Demigods 3e) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 04:25:42 -0700 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Endless Armies > I want to summarise in a catalog every army in the > Know World and discuss > about them ( uniforms, awards, tattics, ecc.). > Contributes will be welcome. > Who is working on the next MA of Ierendi? > Let me know. > Eijerzz* I have been thinking about a similar thing. I however have been thinking more along the lines of de-compileing the War machine stats and re-compileing them for an expanded war machine system. However I also want to make the NPC's in the armies more detailed and so the experience of the battle becomes something I can roll play better. I would be interested in being involved in such a project although I have other things that take higher priority ATM. Chris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 13:52:52 -0700 From: Jordi Castille Subject: Re: Air Power Agathokles wrote: My idea is that Alphatia never expanded that much because of a combination of factors: 1) Alphatia has, and always had, only a limited population, over a quite large territory. 2) A large part of the population of Alphatia is composed of slaves, who need to be constantly kept under control, diverting much resources from the army, and keeping it spread over the vast Alphatian territory. 3) The Alphatian Empire is composed of many rival kingdoms. Intra-empire war have always been common. 4) Skothar includes large steppes, which are of little use for the Alphatians, so they concentrated over the better lands of the Known World and the IoD. 5) In the last millennium, Alphatians have been forced to divert most of their forces to keep the Thyatian Empire from conquering the IoD. -- 1.)I didn't know that good point 2.)I didn't even consider Alphatia a nation with slavery, that was never mentioned in the VotPA Journals. 3.)I expected the Emperors and Empresses of Alphatia's past to put some order between the kingdoms within the Emperor. 4.)With their Pirate Troubles coming from Minaea, I would expect them to act like the U.S. and use their Sky Navy to bombard the city back to the stone age. 5.)During the first couple of centuries during the birth of the Thyatian Empire, I would of Expect Alphatia to develop their Sky Navy and be able to flex their muscle on the Thyatian border while expanding eastward and northwestward. That's my theory on how Alphatia with their superiority in might and magic, they could have held a sphere of influence over the entire world. and now they are going to be holding a sphere of influence in defending the entire hollow world now. Jordi Castille. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 21:16:38 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Air Power Jordi Castille wrote: > > 2.)I didn't even consider Alphatia a nation with slavery, that was never mentioned in the VotPA Journals. This is not surprising, since VotPA is written in character, from an Alphatian's point of view. Actually, DotE makes it quite clear that a large part of the non-spellcasting population of Alphatia is composed by slaves. The rest are servants, and only a small fraction is comprised of freemen and gentry (around 10%, but that may be my own guess). > 3.)I expected the Emperors and Empresses of Alphatia's past to put some order between the kingdoms within the Emperor. If it was so, then why would certain Alphatian Kingdoms need to build defensive walls against other Alphatian nations? Yet most neighbours of Randel have some form of fortification against their militaristic compatriots. > 4.)With their Pirate Troubles coming from Minaea, I would expect them to act like the U.S. and use their Sky Navy to bombard the city back to the stone age. Yes, but Sundsvall is far from Minaea: the only Alphatians likely to be attacked are ships from the chaotic (and backwater) kingdoms of Bellissaria, not exactly a priority on an Emperor's agenda. > 5.)During the first couple of centuries during the birth of the Thyatian Empire, I would of Expect Alphatia to develop their Sky Navy and be able to flex their muscle on the Thyatian border while expanding eastward and northwestward. That's my theory on how Alphatia with their superiority in might and magic, they could have held a sphere of influence over the entire world. and now they are going to be holding a sphere of influence in defending the entire hollow world now. Well, VotPA implies that the Alphatians know little about the rest of the world, even those parts relatively close to their lands. Another factor in this lack of expansion could be the desire of most Alphatian wizards (and therefore rulers) to be left to their own devices, and the diffusion of Zzonga and other addictive drugs. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 15:29:05 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Gods and Immortals - Long (Was: Re: [MYSTARA] Deities and Demigods 3e) At 11:37 PM 4/17/02 -0400, you wrote: > > Class levels don't seem right for Immortals at all. See, if anything (IMO) they're *more* appropriate for Immortals than for Deities. Deities were born/created in their roles, whereas Immortals (by Mystara definition) were once mortals- with classes and levels. >> The Genesis spell allows the creation of a new plane (a demiplane). The >> Alter Reality salient ability allows for a wide range of applications (such >> as casting any spell of 9th level or lower with metamagic feats as a >> standard action), the Divine Creation salient ability allows for the >> creation of new races as a full-round action... > > Exactly. A demiplane. Not very special, considering that there are some > prestige classes and spells that can create the same thing. I'd argue that a demiplane is still pretty special, and with their other abilities, a lot more useful to an Immortal than a mortal, but I will concede that the creation of a demiplane doesn't quite compare to the variety and sizes of various planar and planetary bodies that Immortals in WotI can create (p. 66). > And minus the crunchy bits, Immortals have a better set of those powers. > Immortals don't have spell limits or need to take special 'feat-like' > abilities to get their powers. Immortals still need to spend power points in order to get spells (admittedly only 100 points- a paltry amount to most other Immortals) otherwise they are just as "spell-inept" as non-spellcasting classes. But DDG still provides a wide range of abilities for Deities/Immortals, even regardless of the Salient Divine Abilities. >> (especially at such a low cost of power expenditure as given in WotI) was >> one of the main failings of the WotI boxed set rules for Immortals. > > I don't see that as a failing. We disagree on this one. I personally preferred the Gold Box rules, which put a limit on the amount of ninth level spells an Immortal could cast (if only by requiring differing power point costs for spells) and distinguished the Spheres a bit more by having certain spells/spell-like effects more readily available to members of their dogma, as it were. Given the complexity of the system, I can understand why it didn't make it into the more "streamlined" WotI, but I think the alternative was far too overpowering and too much of a giveaway. > I abhor uppity mortals who take on Gods/Immortals. If even a simple Empreyal can >cast Meteor swarm two times a round at somewhere around 40th caster level, it >makes even the 36th level fools think twice about rushing an Immortal head on. Immortals can't cast two meteor swarms per round in WotI. Immortals are still limited to casting one spell per round just like everyone else, as far as I can tell (I've been looking through the book, but maybe I just missed it). On the other hand, in D&D3E, using the Quicken Spell feat to enhance a spell, you *can* cast two spells in one round. > Compare this with the FR et al. books in which Gods can die by mortal > hands. Hardly unique to FR. RW mythology is full of stories about mortals who take on the Gods in various ways and win- either in mortal combat or in other arenas (Arachne was a better seamstress than one of the Greek goddesses, IIRC). > Gods may be able to die, but Immortals are more than Gods. Evidently your reading of Immortals and mine are very different then. My understanding of Immortals is that they are something like "legendary heroes"- some are more powerful than others, approaching the level and notoriety of those entities that some would term "Gods", but they are not more powerful than that. I used to think that the Immortals were more powerful than AD&D Gods, too (and there was a discussion on the list about this a few years back). Since then, I've reevaluated my opinion. Based on the AD&D information I have (notably Faiths and Avatars) and the OD&D info on Immortals (Gold Box, WotI), they seem to be pretty much the same in levels of power. In some respects the Gods seem more powerful, and in others Immortals, but it pretty well balances out as near as I can tell. Same goes for DDG 3E by my readings. > Immortals are distinct in their personalities and their granted domains. How about if you're just playing in an Immortal level campaign? If I'm playing a character, I'd like him to be different from my buddy across the table's character, and not just in personality. I'd like to play someone with different abilities, different capabilities, just the same as I'd like to play in a mortal level campaign. If I want a fighter, I'd like him to be distinct from someone else's fighter, or cleric.. > There is no NEED for them to be different in power levels unless you want > to play in a game with pantheonic Gods. If there is no need for them to be different in power levels, then why bother with the WotI or Gold Box rules at all? Why bother with Hierarchs and Temporals and Celestials, etc.? > But beyond these cute little special abilities, all Immortals basically > had the same powers. D&D (Deities and Demigods :) says "This God can't > cast cause he doesn't have Wizard" or "This God can't fight good, cause he > don't got Fighter" That's a bit of an oversimplification- it's more accurate to say "This God can't cast as much as this other God, because he doesn't have any wizard levels" or "This God can't fight as well as this other God, because he doesn't have any levels of fighter". I would be hard pressed to say that any of the Gods in DDG are poor spellcasters or fighters, in comparison to mortals. >> Hand of Death: No prerequisite to take. Fortitude save (DC 20 + Cha bonus + >> rank) or be affected as if by the destruction spell (ie, instant death). >> Even if a successful save is made, subject still takes 10d6 points of >> damage. (Example above gives save DC of 28). > > Riight. And this is different from an Immortal level Disintigrate how? It can be used in an Antimagic region and isn't subject to spell resistance, for one. It prevents the resurrection of the being by any power of lesser rank (and even some of equal and greater ranks if they don't have the requisite abilities to undo it). It can be used at will, any time (without having to make an expenditure of power points as an Immortal would have to do, under either Gold Box or WotI rules), and it can be used at any distance up to the limit of the Deity's sensory range (1 mile per divine rank) as long as there is an unbroken line of effect between the two (compare this to the mere 60' range of even an Immortal level disintegrate spell). >> Increased Spell Resistance (for defense against mortals): No prerequisite. >> Grants an additional 20 points of Spell Resistance (in addition to the gods >> automatic 32+rank resistance). Can be taken multiple times, granting an >> additional +20 SR. > > Immortals are completely immune to any mortal spell effect. Granted. A point in their favor here. >> Less powerful and laughable than Immortals? I'm not so sure... > > Maybe not as 'less' as I initially thought when I first read through, but > not exactly as bad-ass :) I think you might be surprised to see how close they are. Do some comparisons between the two sets. For example, here are some comparisons between the two (arguably) most powerful Deities and Immortals: Zeus and Ixion. Zeus Ixion Hit Dice: 70 50 Hit Points: 1,550 2,000 Speed: 90 ft/round 50 ft/round 240 ft/round flying 120 ft/round (for comparison- a round in 3E is 6 seconds, a round in OD&D is 10 seconds. That means Zeus moves 900 ft/minute, flies 2,400 ft/minute. Ixion only moves 300 ft/minute, flying 720 ft/minute- encounter speed, less if you go by the ft/turn rate). AC: 86 (-76 ODD terms) -29 No. Attacks: 4 4 Damage: 68 points* 36-61* (As a Greater Deity, Zeus always does maximum damage with his weapon- not to mention automatically receiving a 20 on his attack rolls. Ixion's damage rating here is based on his most powerful attack, with his 2-handed sword +5.) Divine Immunities: Zeus has a whole host of them, which make him more powerful than his lesser divinities (since they can't affect deities of lesser rank). Since Ixion would probably be a rank 20 deity to Zeus' rank 19, they don't apply. Dmg Resist.: 54/+4 (4/-) None Zeus ignores the first 54 points of damage suffered unless a +4 or greater weapon is used against him. Ixion is immune to damage from mortal weapons of less than +5 enchantment, and takes minimum damage from mortal attacks. Against one another, these immunities are negligible (since Ixion is using a +5 weapon; if he just used his punch, it would still be considered a +5 weapon). However, Zeus does get the benefit of ignoring the first 4 points of damage from Ixion's attacks (due to his Barbarian class levels). A small advantage to be sure. Fire Resist: 39 None Ixion is a Fire Immortal, yet doesn't have the innate Fire Resistance that Zeus does. Aura Range: 19 miles 60 feet Aura Save: DC 38 -14 Saves- Zeus always receives a 20 on his saving throw checks, as a Greater Deity. Abilities: Ixion outranks Zeus in every category here. His ability score adjustments aren't as high as Zeus' though (due to the different systems), so it's difficult to quantify this category. Skills: Ixion has a maximum of 34 skill slots (Intelligence and rank- see p. 54 of WotI). Zeus has 23 different skills, the lowest ranked of which has a +31 adjustment, and Zeus always takes 20 on skill checks. Other Abilities: Ixion has the Fighter Options Power- giving him Lance Attack, Set Spear, Smash, Parry, and Disarm. He also has Grand Mastery of the 2-Handed sword, the Longbow, and Wrestling. Zeus has Improved Disarm, Power Attack, Great Cleave, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Focus, Power Critical, Improved Sunder, Improved Grapple, and a whole host of other combat related feats. He also has several Divine Salient Abilities that are combat related that enhance these other feats beyond mortal ken. Ixion has the Turn Undead ability, usable at will. Zeus can turn undead and earth creatures up to 12 times per day. Ixion has the Height Increase power, allowing him to alter his size anywhere between 7 and 22 feet in height. Zeus has the Alter Size ability, allowing him to assume the size of any form from "A grain of sand up or as much as 1,600 feet tall." Ixion is a better spellcaster. He can use 100 temporary power points to cast any number of spells of any level any number of times per day. Zeus has the spellcasting ability of a 10th level cleric, plus he has 47 spell-like abilities (of levels 1-9) that he can cast at will. Ixion has a 90 percent Antimagic against Zeus. Zeus has a Spell Resistance of 51- next to useless against Ixion's magic (Spell Resistance is beaten by a d20 roll + spellcaster level- Ixion is effectively a 50th level spellcaster.) ------------------- For another comparison, lets visit the low end of the scale. Benekander (level 1 Immortal) versus Imhotep (rank 1 demigod). Imhotep Benekander Hit Dice: 20 15 Hit Points: 260 75 Speed: 60 ft/round 50 ft/round No flying 120 ft/round (Imhotep moves 600 ft/minute. Benekander only moves 300 ft/minute, but he can fly rings around Imhotep unless the demigod gets some means of evening things out.) AC: 26 (-16 ODD terms) 0/-6 No. Attacks: 6 or 3* 2 (*If using his speed quarterstaff, Imhotep gets 6 attacks. Unarmed, he can only make 3 attacks per round.) Damage: 11-16 4-14 Divine Immunities: Negligible since Imhotep and Benekander are the same rank. Dmg Resist.: 36/+4 None Imhotep ignores the first 36 points of damage suffered unless a +4 or greater weapon is used against him. Benekander is immune to damage from mortal weapons of less than +5 enchantment, and takes minimum damage from mortal attacks. Against one another, these immunities are negligible (since Benekander is using his punch, considered a +5 weapon). Fire Resist: 21 None Aura Range: 10 feet 60 feet Aura Save: DC 18 -1 Abilities: Imhotep outranks Benekander in every category here. Even with different adjustments due to differing systems, there is enough of a discrepancy that Imhotep's abilities put him at a distinct advantage to Benekander. Skills: Benekander has a maximum of 16 skill slots (Intelligence and level). Imhotep has 24 different skills, the lowest ranked of which has a +13 adjustment. Other Abilities: Benekander has the Detection Suite- giving him Infravision, dwarvish and elvish detection of traps/secret doors/etc. Imhotep has the Alertness feat (giving a bonus to Listen and Spot checks), and can see hear, touch, and smell up to one mile away. He can't see in the dark, though. Benekander has the Fighter Options- Lance Attack, Set Spear, Smash, Parry, and Disarm. Imhotep has the Improved Two-Weapon fighting and Weapon focus feats, among a couple others. Benekander has the Thief Abilities power, which gives him Open Locks, Find Traps, Remove Traps, Climb Walls, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Pick Pockets, and Hear Noise as a 36th level thief. Imhotep has the Open Locks skill only. Benekander has 50% Antimagic against Imhotep's spell-like abilities. Due to the Improved Saves vs. Magic ability he possesses, though, he only takes 1/4 damage (successful save) or 1/2 damage from Imhotep's magic. On the other hand, Imhotep has a SR of 33, which means Benekander needs a roll of 19 or 20 on d20 in order to beat his spell resistance (d20 + 15 for caster level- Benny's 15 hit dice). ----------- Anyway, those are just some comparisons I've noticed. While I don't think the DDG can be completely adapted (wholesale) without some changes in order to represent Immortals, I think it is mostly there. With a couple of "house rule" exceptions/adjustments that I've already noted on my own, I think DDG is a great product for designing Immortal level 3E campaigns. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 02:08:48 +0200 From: =?us-ascii?Q?Andres_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Gods and Immortals - Long (Was: Re: [MYSTARA] Deities and Demigods 3e) I've not got my hands on DDG yet, but I wonder if the 3e book has carried over some of previous AD&D conceptions, and that is, to have gods "set" on a quasi-fixed environment, which comes to be synonimous to the Great Wheel (as detailed in MotP -both editions- and PS): no matter how powerful a god is, the rules don't give any indication for world-creation, less plane creation -that was already pointed out-... the astounding abilities of Immortals in D&D seem to spring from a very flexible Multiverse (the Spheres can have infinite planes and worlds inside, not to speak of Dimensions), whereas the diffuse "all-might" of AD&D gods is linked to the desire of keeping an official setting of pantheons and planes almost intact (Nine layers and Nine Lords in Baator for good, a single Lawful Neutral plane, and so on). After reading through 3e Manual of the Planes, I wondered if DDG was going to continue, giving all the expanding alternatives which in MotP appear in all the good "alternative cosmogonies" section -that's the best part of the book IMO-. But if it's just a goddy Monster Manual, as the old cute Deities and Demigods was (the one with Chtulhu and Arioch), I think a lot of good chances have been wasted. Andres ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 20:45:28 -0700 From: Jordi Castille Subject: Re: Air Power Agathokles wrote: > 5.)During the first couple of centuries during the birth of the Thyatian Empire, I would of Expect Alphatia to develop their Sky Navy and be able to flex their muscle on the Thyatian border while expanding eastward and northwestward. That's my theory on how Alphatia with their superiority in might and magic, they could have held a sphere of influence over the entire world. and now they are going to be holding a sphere of influence in defending the entire hollow world now. Well, VotPA implies that the Alphatians know little about the rest of the world, even those parts relatively close to their lands. Another factor in this lack of expansion could be the desire of most Alphatian wizards (and therefore rulers) to be left to their own devices, and the diffusion of Zzonga and other addictive drugs. -- Interesting, i would thought Alphatia's to have become more worldly to prevent Thyatis from expanding more and more into Davania. I guess this is why the Heldannic were a more worldly Nation, making themselves known in parts of the Known World, and Savage Coast especially Hule, With Wolf Von Klagendorf under the influence of Synn(Ref. VotPA after Synn's timewarp spell on Prince Heldamar and crew) I would expect the Heldannics to have a huge sphere of influence through most of mystara, as a politic powerhouse. Heck, they have been even going into outer space as well. Kind of interesting for the champions of Vanya to go even into speljamming too. Jordi Castille --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 19 Apr 2002 to 20 Apr 2002 (#2002-108) ****************************************************************