Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 20 Apr 2002 to 21 Apr 2002 (#2002-109) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 22/04/2002, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 14 messages totalling 888 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Light vs. Dark 2. Air Power 3. Trade Marks 4. Immortal Intervention (4) 5. Gods and Immortals - Long (Was: Re: [MYSTARA] Deities and Demigods 3e) 6. Psionics in George's Campaign 7. Gods and Immortals - Long (Was: Re: [MYSTARA] Deities and Demigods 3e) 8. Gods and Immortals (3) 9. Gods and Immortals - Long (Was: Re: [MYSTARA] Deities and Demigods 3e) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 13:07:34 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Light vs. Dark --- macnerd : > I don't think the idea was to impose good/evil axis > on > Norse stuff to make it Mystara, as I get a feeling > that > many support sticking with only chaos/order axis. > This > is my idea too. I think the Chaos/Order axis fits pretty well when it comes to the Norse stuff in Mystara, but on the other hand, Entropy is not really connected to any of the alignments is it? I think using too mych emphasis on axis and stuff like that juts makes most sitations too simplistic. In Mystara it seems that just about everyone are simply acting in their own interests. OTOH I use Evil as a pretty prominent element in my own campaign. Nothing makes better Heroes than a truly evil enemy. However, its the people in bewteen in all shades of gray that makes things interestin. I think Immortals like Odin or Loki fit better in the gray zones than anywhere else, if you want them to be at all similar to their real world counterparts. Haavard ______________________________________________________ Sjekk snørapporter... fra 500 ski-destinasjoner i Europa på http://no.snow.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 11:36:34 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Air Power Jordi Castille wrote: > > Interesting, i would thought Alphatia's to have become more worldly to prevent > Thyatis from expanding more and more into Davania. I guess this is why the > Heldannic were a more worldly Nation, making themselves known in parts of the > Known World, and Savage Coast especially Hule Yes, I'd assume that the Alphatians simply assumed to be strong enough, and did not perceive Thyatis (and later the HK) to be serious threats. So they never bothered to explore further--even Haldemar's second journey was basically the result of him being sent into exile. However, Alphatia did perform some exploration and territorial expansion, in Esterhold, Ochalea, the Isle of Dawn and Norwold, namely. However, they were pushed back by Thyatis in the Known World, while their other colonies in Norwold and Ochalea were composed mostly by non-nobles, who were more than eager to detach themselves from the Imperial control, and were not considered much by the Grand Council (they let the first attempt to colonise Norwold fail without sending assistance, for example). Their later attempts were mostly directed to pushing back Thyatis from the IoD and taking over Glantri (which was another failure). Note that probably each failure was more of an option for political infighting within the Council than an alarm bell for potential threats. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 18:43:10 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Max=20Rega?= Subject: Trade Marks If I want to make a site about Mystara, have I to ask right to someone? Let me know Eij ===== - Non ti far mai servo: non far tregua coi vili: il santo Vero mai non tradir: né proferir mai verbo, che plauda al vizio, o la virtù derida - A.Manzoni ===== - Non ti far mai servo: non far tregua coi vili: il santo Vero mai non tradir: né proferir mai verbo, che plauda al vizio, o la virtù derida - A.Manzoni ______________________________________________________________________ Vinci i Mondiali - La Grande Sfida dei Mondiali FIFA http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://lasfida.yahoo.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 14:41:22 -0400 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Immortal Intervention I have been meaning to write an email such as this many times. I often = read somewhere in a book where there is blatant immortal intervention on = the prime but after a few days I forget what it was and never post the = mail. But now I have decided to do so.=20 It just seems like the immortals are not respecting their own rule of no = immortal intervention on Mystara. Recently I was reading the Red Steel = campaign setting book and it mentioned in the origins of the Red Curse = that Ixion cursed a whole race the nimmurean manscorpions to burn in the = sun. While this was because the manscorpions left the following of = Ixion, it is still borderline. Plus Vermeil is actually the blood of the = Great One, who wanted to curse the Herathians and in the same action he = stopped the devolution of the wallarans ( two direct interventions ).=20 If I remember correctly in the adventure Into the Maelstorm which was in = the Master's series there were several cases of direct immortal = intervention, like Koryis creating a storm and sending dragons to stop = the PC's army. Also in WoTI, I think Hell manifest herself personnally to Kelter Zerben = when the tunnel through the world barrier collapse altough I think it = was Kelter who collaspe it. But that also makes me think, if Immortal = are forbidden to directly intervene on the prime plane, are they = forbidden from going there directly, I tought so whith dream sendings, = mortal forms, manifestation forms, etc. but in the Atruaghin Gaz it says = Atruaghin manifest only every year to speak to his children because he = isn't much "involved" what do other immortal's do then ? Also Alphak's volcanoe altough secret is borderline, considering he = stops the fumes himself to hide the island from the PC's. Altough he may = act in secret, there are supposed to be immotal watchdog.=20 There are other cases like this, I would be interested what some poeple = think about this on the list or other case of immortal intervention = poeple may have found in the books. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 17:43:01 -0400 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Gods and Immortals - Long (Was: Re: [MYSTARA] Deities and Demigods 3e) On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Andrew Theisen wrote: > Deities. Deities were born/created in their roles, whereas Immortals (by > Mystara definition) were once mortals- with classes and levels. But as I mentioned before, An Immortal should be able to create a mortal form of any level/class with any mix of feats and skills etc. If an Immortal is a Ftr20/Rog20, and wants to make a mortal form which is a Wiz20/Clr20 (an epic char) he or she would be creating a mortal form with abilities that the Immortal himself does not have access to. > abilities, a lot more useful to an Immortal than a mortal, but I will > concede that the creation of a demiplane doesn't quite compare to the > variety and sizes of various planar and planetary bodies that Immortals in > WotI can create (p. 66). Immortals should be able to create an exact replica of Mechanus (as an example) with a power expendature and a wave of their hand. Demiplanes are great for the planewalker prestige class, but for an Immortal, they are pretty lame. > Immortals still need to spend power points in order to get spells > (admittedly only 100 points- a paltry amount to most other Immortals) > otherwise they are just as "spell-inept" as non-spellcasting classes. 100 TP is a paltry sum to even a level 1 initiate, considering that a 'day' to an Immortal is pretty non-standard. > We disagree on this one. I personally preferred the Gold Box rules, which > put a limit on the amount of ninth level spells an Immortal could cast (if > only by requiring differing power point costs for spells) and distinguished > the Spheres a bit more by having certain spells/spell-like effects more > readily available to members of their dogma, as it were. I see we will have to agree to disagree. This, I think was one of the biggest failings of the Gold Box, and cheapened the awesome magical might of your typical Immortal. Why should a Immortal of the sphere of energy have to spend more to cast 'Web'? Energy Immortals as per the Gold Box were usually M-U's, and to lose access to such a favorite spell was pretty cheap. > Given the complexity of the system, I can understand why it didn't make it > into the more "streamlined" WotI, but I think the alternative was far too > overpowering and too much of a giveaway. Immortals should kill Mortals within 2 rounds of battle. None of this 'mortals challenging Gods and winning' crap that they tell in fairy tales (or FR). What's the point of being Immortal if someone like Elminster can thrash poor Benekander? > Immortals can't cast two meteor swarms per round in WotI. Immortals are > still limited to casting one spell per round just like everyone else, as > far as I can tell (I've been looking through the book, but maybe I just > missed it). You're right. My memory translated 'attacks' to include spells, when in fact, I believe it only considered melee attacks. > Hardly unique to FR. RW mythology is full of stories about mortals who take > on the Gods in various ways and win- either in mortal combat or in other > arenas (Arachne was a better seamstress than one of the Greek goddesses, > IIRC). Which I think is crap, personally. Any God/Immortal who can be bested by a mortal is at most a titan (per WoTI rules). > My understanding of Immortals is that they are something like "legendary > heroes"- some are more powerful than others, approaching the level and > notoriety of those entities that some would term "Gods", but they are not > more powerful than that. Too much Gold Box in this interpretation. > I used to think that the Immortals were more powerful than AD&D Gods, too > (and there was a discussion on the list about this a few years back). Since > then, I've reevaluated my opinion. I remember this argument, and I seem to remember you agreeing with me :) > WotI), they seem to be pretty much the same in levels of power. In some > respects the Gods seem more powerful, and in others Immortals, but it > pretty well balances out as near as I can tell. Same goes for DDG 3E by my > readings. Gods, by and large have more powerful crunchy stats. Just a quick look through Legends and Lore (1st ed AD&D - I don't have any AD&D2 stuff) shows that a lot of Gods have these 'look at [insert name here] the wrong way and you die, no saving throw' descriptions. Immortals on the other hand are more 'caretakers of the multiverse' in their power scope. AD&D Gods always seem to be tied down, wasting away in a patheon, attached to portfolios, stuck in the great wheel for all eternity. An Immortal, or group thereof, with a lot of time to spare could create their own 'great wheel' set of planes, populate them with powerful titan/Gods, and there would be no difference between that and the spelljammer world. > How about if you're just playing in an Immortal level campaign? If I'm Have you ever played an Immortal level campaign? It's all about personality, not tossing planets. You're trying to alter history, or fix the multiverse, or what have you. It's not about the numbers of powers you have, but how fast you can solve problems, beat the baddies, and stop the Council of Hierarchs from accidentally causing the end of existence, juggling 3 avatars, 2 mortal forms, and a mortal supplicant for Immortality is more than enough fun for one session, without the added complexity of knowing which spells require how many power points. > If there is no need for them to be different in power levels, then why > bother with the WotI or Gold Box rules at all? Why bother with Hierarchs > and Temporals and Celestials, etc.? My bad: My conclusion was misstated. > Anyway, those are just some comparisons I've noticed. While I don't think > the DDG can be completely adapted (wholesale) without some changes in order > to represent Immortals, I think it is mostly there. With a couple of "house > rule" exceptions/adjustments that I've already noted on my own, I think DDG > is a great product for designing Immortal level 3E campaigns. I'm glad that you spent the time comparing those four for those out there who don't have either set. However, those comparisons aren't very fair, as it's like comparing how Windows 3.11 runs on a 486 to how windows XP runs on a P4. Not only are there completely different rules conventions in force, but there are major differences in the systems both of these were created for. But I do agree somewhat on your conclusion. DDG is a good book in general, but there HAS to be some sort of 'house rules' addition when adapting DDG to Immortals. Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 18:55:28 -0400 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Psionics in George's Campaign From: "Giorgio" > > GAZ 3-The Principalities of Glantri > -Low ; I think psions would be persecuted just like clerics are . Not necessarily -- the key feature that marks divine spellcasters is their servitude to a greater power. Psions would most likely be regarded as some new sort of sorcerer until the differences are noticed. Given that Glantrians (according to G:KoM) have great respect for spellcasting monsters, they would probably accord similar respect (but no particular rights or privileges) to psions, sorcerers, and other spellcasters who are neither wizards nor divine spellcasters. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 19:13:47 -0400 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Gods and Immortals - Long (Was: Re: [MYSTARA] Deities and Demigods 3e) From: "Andres Piquer Otero" > I've not got my hands on DDG yet, but I wonder if the 3e book has carried > over some of previous AD&D conceptions, and that is, to have gods "set" on a > quasi-fixed environment, which comes to be synonimous to the Great Wheel (as > detailed in MotP -both editions- and PS): Deities and Demigods presents four different pantheons, each set in a distinct cosmology. > no matter how powerful a god is, > the rules don't give any indication for world-creation, less plane > creation -that was already pointed out-... the astounding abilities of > Immortals in D&D seem to spring from a very flexible Multiverse (the Spheres > can have infinite planes and worlds inside, not to speak of Dimensions), > whereas the diffuse "all-might" of AD&D gods is linked to the desire of > keeping an official setting of pantheons and planes almost intact (Nine > layers and Nine Lords in Baator for good, a single Lawful Neutral plane, and > so on). After reading through 3e Manual of the Planes, I wondered if DDG was > going to continue, giving all the expanding alternatives which in MotP > appear in all the good "alternative cosmogonies" section -that's the best > part of the book IMO-. But if it's just a goddy Monster Manual, as the old > cute Deities and Demigods was (the one with Chtulhu and Arioch), I think a > lot of good chances have been wasted. Some deities are specifically mentioned as having had a role in the creation of their respective cosmologies, but the creation abilities listed among the salient divine abilities available to deities are rather limited. Unlimited creation outside of a deity's immediate godly realm would require a method of extending the powers that a deity has within his godly realm to some region outside it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 01:34:49 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Immortal Intervention Well, I would say that the rule vs. direct immortal intervention comes from an Immortal agreement and some degree of enforcement by Hierarchs, but, nevertheless, Immortals can break it if they see a chance of getting away with it, just as mortals break laws... of course, rule-breaking would be dealt with by each individual immortal, according to their alignment and personality, as well as to how much is at stake in the risk... First of all, I don't think that visions, omens, or spirit forms are "direct invervention", nor are avatars/mortal forms. If some Immortal, like Atruaghin, refrains from using them too much, it's because of his own personality and concern with too much of guidance negatively affecting his people's culture, mentality and resolution. But it's not a rule... Rad, on the other hand, kept a very much "borderline" attitude, with the creation of the Order of the Radiance to directly (albeit through Mortal form) influence key elements of Glantri's populace and elite archmages. Most Immortals will fall inbetween, but without some degree of numinous feedback, no religion would last for long (at least in a fantasy setting like Mystara, where the non-divine prodigies abound). Alphaks, of course, is a "rogue" immortal; he's done indirect and direct (mostly damaging) influences whenever he's had a chance. I would say that some of the Immortal big events which take place in M1 are a result of other Immortals trying to soothe down the mayhem started by that very Entropic being, so these "direct interventions" are like countermeasures (of course, those also will agree with the particular immortal's portfolio, and in M1 Korys deus ex machina differs from Vanya's interventions as much as it can!)... Excepting during WotI, when everybody goes bananas and tries to take advantage of the chaos in the Spheres (like the meteor or the casting of Immortal-level spells on poor mortals, as in the murder of Torenal, false memories on Glantri ambassadors or curse upon Thincol -that's quite weird, though, Anya is a mortal identity of Vanya, but her *curse* has Immortal power-it cannot be dispelled), most "big kaboom" Immortal intervention seems to be pointed at hindering big unbalances of Entropy (or what Immortals, who are not omniscient, deemed so): the Curse on the Nithians is a good example, and the Red Curse is linked to it. The Nimmur thing is tougher: manscorpions were falling under the sway of entropic Immortals, and that could be understood as a menace to the balance. Of course, Ixion's pride was involved, but in a way there was some proportion to it: without the burning curse, Nimmur manscorpions under entropic directions could have menaced that area of the SC and altered equilibrium for good... Ixion did not wipe them out (nor even a Hierarch could get away with wiping a whole culture, that was done to the Nithians only and by a huge consensum of Immortals), just placed a big limitation on them to balance things out. Of course, that's arguable, but that's probably Ixion's own justification, and he seems to have gotten away with it.. Besides Immortals' own policies (all subject to politicking), messing with the Prime seems to be scrutinized by the Old Ones. They give the good one-two to both Rad and Ixion at the end of WotI... Ixion did some legalist approach, and took Rad's manifestation in the Prime as "direct intervention" (probably a rules-clause established by the Hierarchs), so he retaliated with his own manifestation form. But the Old One clearly repprimanded both of them, though Ixion's activity during the War had been completely "law-clean" (no manifestation forms used by his faction, no direct spellcasting on mortals, no possessions...); the Old Ones know better and they know the spirit of the rule, the Immortals tamper with its letter, just as mortals do. Andrés ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 19:45:31 -0400 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Immortal Intervention From: "Gilles Leblanc" > I have been meaning to write an email such as this many times. I often > read somewhere in a book where there is blatant immortal intervention > on the prime but after a few days I forget what it was and never post > the mail. But now I have decided to do so. > > It just seems like the immortals are not respecting their own rule of > no immortal intervention on Mystara. The actual rule is no Immortal intervention in Manifestation Form against non-followers of the Immortal in question on the Prime Plane without permission of a Council of Hierarchs. That (truer) version of the rule leaves a lot of obvious loopholes. > Recently I was reading the Red Steel campaign setting book and it > mentioned in the origins of the Red Curse that Ixion cursed a whole > race the nimmurean manscorpions to burn in the sun. While this was > because the manscorpions left the following of Ixion, it is still borderline. It is precisely because they originally followed Ixion that this curse was permitted. Then again, Ixion might actually have gotten a Council of Hierarchs to agree to this one. > Plus Vermeil is actually the blood of the Great One, who wanted to > curse the Herathians and in the same action he stopped the devolution > of the wallarans ( two direct interventions ). Of course, the Great One is one of the few Immortals to have a Mortal Identity form that is only slightly less powerful than his Manifestation form.... > If I remember correctly in the adventure Into the Maelstorm which was > in the Master's series there were several cases of direct immortal > intervention, like Koryis creating a storm and sending dragons to stop > the PC's army. The dragons were already on Mystara -- Koryis just gave them the idea to go after the PCs' army. The storm could have been created by a mortal spellcaster of sufficient power (perhaps one of the dragons?). Koryis thus could have achieved the desired results easily without manifesting on the Prime Plane. > Also in WoTI, I think Hell manifest herself personnally to Kelter > Zerben when the tunnel through the world barrier collapse altough I > think it was Kelter who collaspe it. But that also makes me think, if > Immortal are forbidden to directly intervene on the prime plane, are > they forbidden from going there directly, I tought so whith dream > sendings, mortal forms, manifestation forms, etc. but in the Atruaghin > Gaz it says Atruaghin manifest only every year to speak to his children > because he isn't much "involved" what do other immortal's do then ? In both of the above cases the Immortal in question would have been in Incorporeal form, which is visible and able to communicate but insubstantial. In addition, each of these cases involves an Immortal appearing to his or her followers (although in Kelter's case he did not know that he was a follower of Hel until she revealed herself -- at which point you know what happened.) > Also Alphak's volcanoe altough secret is borderline, considering he > stops the fumes himself to hide the island from the PC's. Altough he > may act in secret, there are supposed to be immotal watchdog. No published material indicates that Alphaks is present in the vicinity of that volcano in Manifestation Form. Of course, it helps that his favored mortal identity form is that of a demon with the spellcasting ability of a 36th level M-U.... > There are other cases like this, I would be interested what some poeple > think about this on the list or other case of immortal intervention poeple > may have found in the books. Loopholes, there are always loopholes.... ;) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 18:33:29 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Gods and Immortals At 02:08 AM 4/21/02 +0200, Andres Piquer Otero wrote: > > I've not got my hands on DDG yet, but I wonder if the 3e book has carried > over some of previous AD&D conceptions, and that is, to have gods "set" on a > quasi-fixed environment, which comes to be synonimous to the Great Wheel (as > detailed in MotP -both editions- and PS) If I understand what you're referring to here- ie, declaring a particular cosmology, or one in which there is a finite number of outer planes, designated in particular locations in the multiverse- the answer is no. The DDG presents four different pantheons- the "D&D" pantheon (the default Greyhawk mythos), the Olympian pantheon, the Norse pantheon, and the Pharaonic (Egyptian) pantheon. All three have their own planar arrangement, independent of one another. The D&D pantheon *does* use the default Great Wheel model, but the others are very different. DDG is set up to be compatible with the Manual of the Planes (3rd Edition), though ownership of that product is not necessary to use DDG. There isn't much space given to setup of a particular cosmology (the emphasis is on the deities themselves). Therefore, the Mystara cosmology (with myriad outer planes, etc.) can be very easily used in conjunction with DDG. > no matter how powerful a god is, the rules don't give any indication for world->creation, less plane creation -that was already pointed out-... Not entirely true. Ethan and I were discussing that there isn't any "uber-powerful" plane/planet creation type ability in the DDG like there were under WotI rules, at least not of that scope. However, DDG does mention that each deity has its own godly realm, where the deity is at its most powerful. The description of the godly realm seems to indicate that it is less than planar in size (ie, not a plane in itself, but a location of variable size on an outer plane or the Prime Material), but as I read the description of things, there doesn't seem to me to be anything preventing either an alteration or simply a different reading to make the godly realm an Outer Plane in and of itself. It serves the same function, essentially, as the home plane granted to Immortals. I think the idea in the DDG of making it a location within a larger Outer Plane stems more from the fact that most cosmologies (the default Great Wheel, the FR Cosmic Tree, etc.) seem to have a finite number of Outer Planes, and thus only a limited amount of available space for deities to have their home realms in. > the astounding abilities of Immortals in D&D seem to spring from a very flexible >Multiverse (the Spheres can have infinite planes and worlds inside, not to speak >of Dimensions), whereas the diffuse "all-might" of AD&D gods is linked to the >desire of keeping an official setting of pantheons and planes almost intact (Nine > layers and Nine Lords in Baator for good, a single Lawful Neutral plane, and > so on). This is as good an interpretation of how things in AD&D and even in most 3E conceptualizations seem to be. However, as I noted above, I think it is more due to a perception that most people generally have finite planes, rather than an infinitude. Nothing I've read in any of the 3E products (DDG, MotP) seem to me to be contradictory or inapplicable if applied to an infinite planar arrangement (Mystara) rather than a finite one. > After reading through 3e Manual of the Planes, I wondered if DDG was > going to continue, giving all the expanding alternatives which in MotP > appear in all the good "alternative cosmogonies" section -that's the best > part of the book IMO-. Absolutely. I think MotP is one of the best products for 3E yet- even if you don't play 3E. > But if it's just a goddy Monster Manual, as the old cute Deities and Demigods was >(the one with Chtulhu and Arioch), I think a lot of good chances have been wasted. I'd agree, to an extent. If you're looking for more than a book on statistics and how to play deities as actual physical opponents to your PCs, then you will probably want to give this book a miss. If you're interested in expanding campaigns to an Immortal level (as with the Gold Box rules and WotI set), in third edition terms, then this book is invaluable. It does provide some slightly expanded stat blocks on the default (and new) pantheons- information on the clergy, their beliefs, domains, portfolios, and the like. There is also information on a couple of different cosmologies (the Olympian and Pharaonic) that you can use, along with suggested creatures and things that would fit thematically in that sort of campaign. The first couple of chapters talk about the role of deities and their interactions with mortals, but the major emphasis is on statistics and fleshing out deities as opponents. If that's not your cup of tea, then I wouldn't recommend buying it. If it is, I think it's really well done and recommend it as a very good product. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 20:07:57 -0700 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Immortal Intervention > No published material indicates that Alphaks is > present in the vicinity > of that volcano in Manifestation Form. Of course, > it helps that his > favored mortal identity form is that of a demon with > the spellcasting > ability of a 36th level M-U.... > Immortals should kill Mortals within 2 rounds of > battle. None of this 'mortals challenging Gods and > winning' crap that they tell in fairy tales (or FR). > What's the point of being Immortal if someone like > Elminster can thrash poor Benekander? -IMHO PC's and other heros should be able to go up against immortals and win. That is given that the immortal is not in manefestation form as they will almost always not be on the prime which is where any combat is likely to take place. -Even if the immortal is losing and wanted to use his manefestaion form it takes time to change into it IIRC. -The trick to being able to take on an immotal is to know that he is an immortal not just another mortal somehow which would be rare anyway. -many cases of heros taking on immortals might just be a powerful mortal masqurading as an immortal. After all an immortal doesn't flaunt his mortal form, but a mortal might flaunt that he is immortal (when he isn't). -This means the immortal is not destroyed, just very annoyed, and the "Hero" will now have a very powerful enemy, but at least will have damaged whatever plot the immortal was working on. -Taking on Alphaks is thus possible but it still means taking out a demon with the spellcasting ability of a 36th level M-U. And only results in banishing that form. Thus defeated, not destroyed. -A possible LotR example that could translate into D&D: sauron bound himself to the ring to allow him to use his immortal power when in mortal form. This mean when his form was destroyed he did not have enough power to create a new one having assumed he was indestructable with the ring his greed had driven him to it. When his mortal form was destroyed however, he was not and could still appear incorprally. Gandalf on the other hand was restricted to powers of the mortal realm, aka in mortal form. When his form was destroyed he just made a new one after destroying the balrog with his manafestation form I assume (need not be on a single plane dimension as he pressed the balrog to fight and it was a long and tireing fight and bchase which he does not tell others of). He gets the experience from killing the balrog and comes back more powerful. The destruction of the ring also destroys Sauron as his power is so linked to it. LotR is a prime example of immortals interfering with mortals on the basis of he (sauron) started it, he ain't really breaking the rules (no direct interference in manefestation form), so we'll interfere but won't break the rules either (we'll use mortal identities). Chris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:53:44 -0400 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Gods and Immortals - Long (Was: Re: [MYSTARA] Deities and Demigods 3e) On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, David Knott wrote: > creation of their respective cosmologies, but the creation abilities > listed among the salient divine abilities available to deities are rather > limited. Unlimited creation outside of a deity's immediate godly realm > would require a method of extending the powers that a deity has > within his godly realm to some region outside it. Which is something we HAVE to add. Mystaran Immortals create planes, planets, universes, and populate them every day. Mystara doesn't have the kind of static cosmology that DDG promotes. In that way, I really think that the DDG Gods are limited - while Immortals aren't. Different beasts entirely. Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 00:08:07 -0400 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Gods and Immortals On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Andrew Theisen wrote: > However, DDG does mention that each deity has its own godly realm, where > the deity is at its most powerful. The description of the godly realm seems > to indicate that it is less than planar in size (ie, not a plane in itself, > but a location of variable size on an outer plane or the Prime Material), Which fits with the MotP vision, where many Gods share the same plane, but cannot control the whole of it - they have their own little zones. But this really only works if there is a need for many immortals to share a limited number of planes. > but as I read the description of things, there doesn't seem to me to be > anything preventing either an alteration or simply a different reading to > make the godly realm an Outer Plane in and of itself. It serves the same > function, essentially, as the home plane granted to Immortals. I think the > idea in the DDG of making it a location within a larger Outer Plane stems > more from the fact that most cosmologies (the default Great Wheel, the FR > Cosmic Tree, etc.) seem to have a finite number of Outer Planes, and thus > only a limited amount of available space for deities to have their home > realms in. Which is true. A little word splicing isn't too much of a change. But we will still need to adress the uber-plane creation powers. Even though I don't like it, Immortals do toss planets around. Gods don't. > I've read in any of the 3E products (DDG, MotP) seem to me to be > contradictory or inapplicable if applied to an infinite planar arrangement > (Mystara) rather than a finite one. There are a few little details, but nothing earth shaking, as I noted above. > I'd agree, to an extent. If you're looking for more than a book on > statistics and how to play deities as actual physical opponents to your > PCs, then you will probably want to give this book a miss. Unfortunately, DDG is really exactly what the Immortals set was not - a glorified group of uber-beings for your PCs to tangle with physically. WoTI, especially made it clear that all but the most inept (why they would be Immortals is another question!) Immortals could thrash mortals. Therefore an Immortal shouldn't be the 'final boss' of a dungeon or somethting like that. DDG, on the other hand, makes great final bosses. ------------------------ BY the way (this is for Andrew): The 1st edition Zeus (Legends and Lore) is as follows: AC: -2 Move: 18"/24" HP: 400 # attacks: 2 Damage/attack: 6-60 (+14) Special att: Lightniong Bolts Special Def: See below Magic Resist: 75% Size: M (6.5') Alignment: CG 25th level Cleric 17th level Fighter 20th level MU/Ill 15th level Bard Str: 25 Int: 25 Wis: 25 Dex: 25 Con: 25 Cha: 25 Can simultaneously attack with a 30 pt lightning bolt and with spear per round Each time his blood hit the ground, a random 6th level monster (as the summoning spell) appears and fights for Zeus for 48 hrs or until slain. --------------------- Compare _this_ with an Immortal and the 3e equivalent. Its a bit enlightening! Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 00:58:36 -0400 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Gods and Immortals From: "SteelAngel" > > Which is true. A little word splicing isn't too much of a change. But we > will still need to adress the uber-plane creation powers. Even though I > don't like it, Immortals do toss planets around. Gods don't. > > > I've read in any of the 3E products (DDG, MotP) seem to me to be > > contradictory or inapplicable if applied to an infinite planar arrangement > > (Mystara) rather than a finite one. > > There are a few little details, but nothing earth shaking, as I noted > above. One way to give those powers to all Mystaran Immortals would be to grant them free general access to the Creation domain. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 20 Apr 2002 to 21 Apr 2002 (#2002-109) ****************************************************************