Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 23 Apr 2002 to 24 Apr 2002 (#2002-112) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 25/04/2002, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 8 messages totalling 491 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Endless Armies (2) 2. War Journal of Bue Geirsteinson - Part XII (2) 3. AMP Weapons (long) (3) 4. Light vs. Dark ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:21:42 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Re: Endless Armies -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Chris Furneaux Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 8:51 PM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Endless Armies > Mystarian almanac and book of facts. For some reason I thought it was "Military Atlas" , even though I should know better by now. :) > Find it through > the vaults (although if you havent already, shame on > you as it is only the most impresive ammount of fan > matterial I have ever seen.) I have looked at some of the MAs, but not with great details yet. Will do in the near future. George ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:21:41 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Re: Endless Armies -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Agathokles Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 12:38 PM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Endless Armies > If you want more info, just ask :) Do you have anything on their formations, training, battle tactics, magical and non-magical weapons, unit types and deployment, battle histories and siege capabilities? George ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:21:43 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Re: War Journal of Bue Geirsteinson - Part XII Subject: [MYSTARA] War Journal of Bue Geirsteinson - Part XII Interesting story you are writing. Out of curiosity, why did no one have any healing potions available if they where going to battle? I would have expected in a world where magic exists and people get hurt all the time, and if clerics are available, it shouldn't be to hard for nobles, war leaders, and clan leaders to have a small stash of Healing Potions for themselves and their bravest warriors. Way I see it, healing potions are not that expensive and quite common if clerics are available ,at least IMC. What is the cost/availability ratio of Healing Potions in your campaign (and in your story)? Unless of course having a healing potion in your story would have eliminated the drama, in which case any reason for not having them around is valid. ("She took a deadly blow to the stomach? No problem DM, we fix her up with a healing potion we got from the friendly cleric back in the city") :) When is Part XIII do? George ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 15:21:45 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Re: AMP Weapons (long) -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Andres Piquer Otero Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 7:05 PM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] AMP Weapons (long) > But there's a big caveat that all Rockhome military engineers should take > into account: magic items (unless Artifact-level ones) ARE affected by > dispel magic, so I see a big danger of AMP weapons affecting each other!!! Aye, forgot to bring that point up. I was thinking that the dwarves would use a spell to protect their AMPs from its own effects and from being turned off by an enemies Dispel Magic spells. Basically they would have something that would be the equivalent of hardening electronics to withstand EMP weapons in our own era. Perhaps a "Dispel Shield" spell that increases (during the items creation) the AMPs casters level by 50% for resisting Dispel Magic attacks. This spell would require some expensive material component and be cast able only by high level wizards (helps to keep a measure of game balance) > if they were deployed in something like a battery, either at the hands of an > army unit on the field or at some kind of defensive position in a fortress > or similar, there would be a good chance of weapons affecting each other > (something which could create interesting "resonances", if 2 weapons are > triggered at the same time and would dispel each other... these > magic-physics new horizons are bound to awaken DM's -wicked- imagination) Hmm...perhaps if multiple AMP weapons go off in the same area it may cause unpredictable havoc with the laws of magic there. Say, causing Wild Magic, Dead Magic , dispel magic (normal) or no effect at random. Sure would make the battlefield interesting... > unless deployment of weapons takes into account ranges and areas very > carefully. Probably that does not have an impact on long-distance > artillery-like use (like bombing a mage unit from afar in order to dispel > their protection spells, summoned creatures, minor magic items and so on), > but in near missile or melee range, weapons would surely start affecting > each other, either squarely (a couple weapons are "fired" and they rend all > other weapons in AoE non-functional) or in the mean way, being fired at the > same time, dispelling a dispelling which is dispelling a dispelling... could > either vanish harmlessly or, as said before, give way to magical paradox > (and maybe a vortex, wild magic, or dead magic). All valid possibilities. What you mention above would be the primary use of "dumb" AMP weapons, which are for targeting a large area on the battlefield. > One possible engineering solution would be to research a new dispel magic > which has no area of effect, but that is a ray spell (a ray /3e ranged touch > attack). Of course, then a touch attack would be needed at quite a bit of > the spell's power would be lost in facing powerful area spells (the weapon > could not uncover a whole mage unit which has become invisible, well, it > could, but you'd need like some score shots, and, till the dispel takes > effect, the targets are invisible, so all penalties apply to the touch > attack). "Ray Dispel" would be something like 2nd level (less powerful, as > it cannot affect areas, but only a single mage and the apparel he carries). > That sort of weapon would be good for hand to hand combat or skirmish-like > frays (if you get to melee with a Glantrian mage, either he's a fake or > you're damn lucky). The use of "Ray Dispel" would be used for "smart" AMP weapons, which target individual leaders or large units . Imagine a special forces solider with the equivalent of a Ray-Dispel sniper rifle targeting enemy weapons, spell casters or specific magic items, and larger dual or quad mounted Anti-Airship cannons being used against enemy airships and magical flying constructs. > A defensive possibility would be to research a Dispel Magic with a duration > longer than instantaneous, it would create an sphere where spells fizzle out > for the indicated time. That spell should be quite high-level (it's a minor > Anti-magic shell, as magic can roll to resist it, but it covers an area)and > could not be manufactured in meaningful amounts. Probably it could protect > big sections of an army (division level) and key points of cities and > strongholds. Very good idea! How about a SDMF (Static Dispel Magic Field) to protect static units, and MDMF (Mobile Dispel Magic Field) to protect large units of troops on the battlefield. ( Sort of like the SW:TPM movie where a large mobile shield generator was deployed on the battle field on some war beasts, but instead of an electro-magnetic shield, its a temp Dispel Magic shield ) > And, big problem: any high-level magic-users in your enemy's ranks could > cast a Dispel Magic at your expensive AMP weapons. You'd better enhance your > items a lot for them to be meaningful in the battle. True. The need to protect AMP weapons against enemies DM efforts (via a "Dispel Shield") could lead to these weapons being expensive and uncommon. > The idea is interesting (i had quite a lot of fun writing this), but the big > problem i see is getting enough high-level casters around to make a nice > amount of those weapons (low-level ones would be easily resisted or > dispelled themselves)... there are quite a few Dwarven priests, but their > putting up an organized chain-production of experimental weapons could be a > bit too much to ask from RH society... Glad you found the idea interesting. I will give the idea another re-write and then see if I can make it a bit more solid. Then after that, I need to determine how the various Old World nations IMC would use/not use AMP weapons in their militaries. George ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 22:39:38 +0200 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: War Journal of Bue Geirsteinson - Part XII Giorgio wrote: > Interesting story you are writing. Thank you. If only I could keep at it. :( > Out of curiosity, why did no one have any healing potions available if = they > where going to battle? I would have expected in a world where magic = exists > and people get hurt all the time, and if clerics are available, it = shouldn't > be to hard for nobles, war leaders, and clan leaders to have a small = stash > of Healing Potions for themselves and their bravest warriors. Magic in the Northern Reaches is generally distrusted and IMO is quite = rare. Potions are seen as brews probably created by "Wise Women" (most = often regarded as witches, IMO) and will rarely be used due to general = distrust of all sorcerous magic. That's how I see it, at least (and to = any who would disagree: Feel free to disagree, but that's my opinion and = how things work in my Northern Reaches). > Way I see it, healing potions are not that expensive and quite common = if > clerics are available ,at least IMC. What is the cost/availability = ratio of > Healing Potions in your campaign (and in your story)? IMC healing potions are pretty common and are often awarded to the PCs = when they accept a mission or help somebody out. They can be bought in = most major cities of the Known World for something like 100gp per potion = (varies all the time, my players hate me for increasing the price, when = the PCs really need healing). But I don't run a Northern Reaches = campaign and they couldn't get any healing potions that one time when = they visited Ostland (and really needed them since they had to fight a = white dragon). > Unless of course having a healing potion in your story would have = eliminated > the drama, in which case any reason for not having them around is = valid. > ("She took a deadly blow to the stomach? No problem DM, we fix her up = with a > healing potion we got from the friendly cleric back in the city") :) Well, it would at that, but see above for my general stance on healing = (and other) potions in the Northern Reaches. > When is Part XIII do? *sigh* It's coming, I'm working on it. I really am. Writer's block. I'm = trying to finish the rest of the story before starting to post. But = comments always fuel my creativity, so thanks for commenting, it just = might be coming soon! :) Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 00:11:25 +0200 From: =?us-ascii?Q?Andres_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: AMP Weapons (long) > Glad you found the idea interesting. I will give the idea another re-write > and then see if I can make it a bit more solid. > Then after that, I need to determine how the various Old World nations IMC > would use/not use AMP weapons in their militaries. Wow, I've read your email and thought about the whole AMP idea again... besides logistics, i would take a lot of care not to turn the whole business into some un-Mystara feeling... just a step in the wrong direction, and it may start looking more like Star Wars than Mystara!!! (nothing wrong with that if you feel like it, though)... but here there are a couple of thoughts, more campaign background than technical: 1) there's a socio-politic delicate consideration: would spellcasters (either clerics or mages)be willing to manufacture a big amount of magic-dispelling gadgets and put them into the hands of a distinct faction of power (like an army, be it regulars, elite units, secret strike force corps or whatever) probably made up of -mostly- non spellcasters?? unless the mage in question is a convinced flawless patriot or the need is hard-pressing (a defensive war vs. a magical potence), I personally think it unlikely. At best, it could be done by some churches, but I guess they would place lots of controls, ritual and bureaucracy about who can use those weapons (like only clerics, or only a secret indoctrinated group of zealots, or even only charmed units of troops). 2) you'd have to think in retrospect. Magical warfare has gone for millenia in Mystara (in the Heyday of Nithia it would probably be even more intense than in 1000ac, and there is a bunch of Alphatians, people who blasted off their own universe in a magic-based war). The usages and risks of dispelling in mass combat must have been thought about beforehand. Even though, AMP may be a new idea, but one which probably comes after a series of options. 3) one obvious example of the last is the protection of cities and strongholds... even if the published material only gives small hints and references on it, it's hard to believe that city walls of places like Glantri City, Sundsvall or even Darokin and Thyatis, are not protected by centuries-old magicks dispellers. Much more with places like imperial palaces, Glantri's treasury and Tower of Sighs... there must be something which prevents enemy commandos from making "suicide teleports", armies to start disintegrating city walls or earthquaking them, and so on... That's my (and only mine, no flames, please) way of understanding the 1000 Wizards of Alphatia teleporting over Glantri City... rules say you cannot teleport in midair, well, they did not want to! even after scrying the city for long time, and being top level mages, they tried to teleport right at alexandersplatz and wreak havoc... but Glantri city's defense wardings forced an error on their teleporting, they appeared high in the air (some did in the rock underneath, probably), but I cannot think of any sane mage who casts teleport without having cast fly, levitation or feather fall first (or a contingency to prevent him from getting crushed in thick soil, if level permits it) Andr'es ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 00:58:25 +0200 From: =?us-ascii?Q?Andres_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Light vs. Dark Wow, alignment talk continues... This time i thought the topic was slightly different, that it had to do something which how alignment conception affects a campaign setting in a practical way, instead of rambling about the relativity or non-relativity of alignment conceptions... Talking of philosophies, IMO a fantasy campaign world, like a novel, movie or other piece of fiction, does have a philosophy which gives it "flavor", as much as geography, particular magic characteristics and mythological beings do. RPGs are games, so you can change or alter it to fit your taste, but it's more or less right to assume that the designers and writers had an idea in mind when crafting the world and supplements you read and play in. Alignment does configure quite a bit of this philosophy. And it's quite understandable that alignment in a fantasy setting is not just morals and ethics on a personal and social level, but also how those beliefs and attitudes interact with: 1) supernatural powers, forces and events 2) narrative dynamics, that is, how they influence the history and the "heroics" of the setting... And, having in mind those aspects (and only those aspects, as i said before, personal views and attitudes are outside my aim; IMO, as long as you grasp your character's personality, it does not matter if you call him "lawful good", "roguish good guy" or "calculating criminal who abhors unecessary cruelty), I think it's fair to try to characterize campaign worlds according to the big "alignment ingredients" which shape them. Just a few examples: 1) In Tolkien's world, Evil seems to be shaped as a necessary cause of Chaos (even in creation, Evil comes out of Chaos in Melkor's distorting Eru's music): lack of order, which brings beauty, causes, fear, ignorance, supperstition, strife and the rise of the Dark Enemy. All Freee peoples hold to Lawful values (be the innocent homely hobbit order, disciplinate Gondor or Elvish and Dwarven tradition)which produce beauty, art, and well-being... Chaos engenders opposites to all of those. 2) In Dragonlance adventures, law and chaos seem to be subordinated to the big struggle between Good and Evil and the balancing efforts of Neutrality. Lawful and Chaotic gods are friendly to each others and prompt allies if they share the same moral outlooks. Magic itself spins around Good, Evil and Neutrality (the Moons) and there's no way of getting around it... an alliance of Lawful Krynn gods to "even things out" against their chaotic counterparts would be completely out of place in the heroic dynamics of the Dragonlance setting. 3) Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay: this is even funnier, most adventures focus on heroes being "normal people" (the default alignment in the game is Neutral) who are faced with the big ravages of Chaos... the forces of Law turn out to be, in quite a few scenarios, capable of causing as much pain and cruelty as the chaos they're fighting (check your average Warhammer Witch Hunter) and they're not very nice to stick around... that's quite a nihilistic campaign world, because, in the end, Law is supporting Chaos, something fitting the WH cosmology, as the Law gods are but figments of the original Chaos soup... heroes are heroes because they strive to procrastinate the advent of chaos as much as possible and make humanity enjoy their values for at least another day. Good and evil appear as alignments, but they're like shades of conduct (more willingness to self-sacrifice for the common good, more jadedness to get what you want) in the face of the Law-Chaos binomy. If most FRPGs are manicheistic, WH is, well, pessimistic. 4) Mystara: let's examine the two basic "campaign alignment points": a) the supernatural powers spin around the Spheres... Spheres are linked to Law and Chaos, but are quite beyond any moral conceptions. Particular Immortals have personal morals, ethics and character, but they nevertheless owe a degree of fealty to their Sphere. That can be seen quite distinctly in Immortals having very diverse "flocks": Vanya had worshippers of a variety of alignments... She did not get mad at the HKs till they violated the Goddess' ideal (by becoming exploitators of a defenseless subjugated country, and leaving conquer and glorious battle ideals)... to her, it did not matter if they were Evil, Good or Neutral, as long as they followed the path of glory. Asterius can be a god of criminals (thieves and conmen) or of industrious traders, the list goes on... b) heroic dynamics: not many big events in the history of Mystara have come out of the continuous struggle between Good and Evil. Conflicts between Alphatia and Thyatis cannot be considered so, neither War of the Immortals (even the Entropic faction is not trying to "make Evil win the world", they just follow personal agendas, like Alphak's vengeful attitude) or independence wars... Shadow Elves are crearly a challenge to Evil/Good conceptions. The only big exception is the Nithian Heresy, but, then, it is also linked to spread of Entropy and thus conflict within the Spheres... It is hard to describe most nations of Mystara (also churches, knightly groups) in terms of plain good or evil. There are exceptions, sure (Hule and Denagoth, to just speak 2), but, then, what I'm trying to say is that conflict with those evil-doers, though it has happened and of course is the meat and wine of most adventurers, does not shape world events as much as more "shades of grey" events and social-political-magical groups. That said, I think that Evil/Good is ok for character (PC or NPC) characterization, as much as any other adjective... but also that taking the Good-Evil axis in the same terms that it is used in other fantasy settings (like Dragonlance, Tolkien or even Forgotten Realms, which is kinda "moderate")will create some kind of incongruence with the way Mystara has been published and developed so far... Of course, those changes are fine and nice if they fit your style of play, reading tastes, etc... but they are changes nevertheless over a previous fantasy setting philosophy. Andres ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 00:40:10 -0400 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: AMP Weapons (long) > 3) one obvious example of the last is the protection of cities and > strongholds... even if the published material only gives small hints and > references on it, it's hard to believe that city walls of places like > Glantri City, Sundsvall or even Darokin and Thyatis, are not protected by > centuries-old magicks dispellers. Much more with places like imperial > palaces, Glantri's treasury and Tower of Sighs... there must be something > which prevents enemy commandos from making "suicide teleports", armies to > start disintegrating city walls or earthquaking them, and so on... I agree that some magical defenses would be in order. Even basic spells like knock could open a barred gate to a castle if there weren't something to prevent this. Passwall, disintegrate, etc. can all punch holes in a heavily fortified castle fairly quickly. In the millenia of Mystaran history, I doubt that the 1st time these tactics will be tried is when the PCs think of it. Defensive protections or hardening of walls should have been developed (at least in magic heavy areas like Alp. or Glantri). Also, some sort of barrier or protection against unwelcome teleportations or ethereal visitors would also be a good idea. Otherwise, a lone ethereal thief or assassin could do quite a bit of damage. Magically hardened walls could get a saving throw against these effects or some % chance to resist if more AM or dispel based. An Ethereal Barrier spell could protect a given area (appearing as a solid wall of ectoplasm from the ether), only accessible by magic word, permission from the caster, a talisman or key, etc. The E-Barrier would also deflect teleporters, having them appear outside the perimeter or having the spell fail entirely. Depending on the level of the spell (or the caster), some beings might have a chance to penetrate it or dispel it from the ether. Or anti-barrier magics could be developed... ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 23 Apr 2002 to 24 Apr 2002 (#2002-112) ****************************************************************