Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 7 May 2002 to 8 May 2002 (#2002-125) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 09/05/2002, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 16 messages totalling 711 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Immunities and vulnerabilities (2) 2. Undead and invisibility (7) 3. How many 0e levels equal 3e level? (3) 4. SpellJammer d20 in Polyhedron May 5. Cool Maps in Dungeon May (2) 6. ESDs ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 10:03:01 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Immunities and vulnerabilities Angelo Bertolli wrote: > Also, I've never understood why undead are immune to slow (because it's > MENTAL??) That's a weird one. So they also can't be hasted? Moving really > fast is mental also? I suppose that's because slow/haste are based on accelerated (or slowed down) metabolism. Undead have no metabolism, so they are not affected by this kind of spells. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 15:03:45 -0300 From: "Iameht, the Time Traveler" Subject: Re: Undead and invisibility Ville V Lähde wrote: > What about D&D? If I remember my Companion book right, invisibility isn't > an illusion. (Bear with me). In the original spell description there is no > mention of the "metaphysics" of the spell, just its effects. But in the > Companion book, when ethereal plane is discussed, I think I remember a > short passage on invisibility. > I have lost my tattered Companion book somewhere, as I moved to using > Cyclopedia years ago. So I may remember it wrong. I think it was something > along these lines: "Whilst in the ethereal plane, a detect invisible spell > can be used to detect a person on Prime plane who has cast invisibility on > her/himself." - So, an invisible person would be "phased out", so to > speak, in the in-between of Prime and Ether? > Well, I don´t know the rules of the 1st edition, but in AD&D, it was possible to see the Prime from the Ethereal Border as a blurry view and with a limited sight range, the reverse not being true without appropriate magic, so I guess a Detect Invisible cast in the Ethereal allow the caster to see a invisible person in the Prime, as expected, but he can see the rest within sight range too. Without the spell or proper ability, an invisible person on the Prime would be invisible to someone in the Ethereal too. Hope it helps. Iameht, the Time Traveler. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 20:44:59 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: Undead and invisibility
Ville_V_L=E4hde?= <Ville.V.Lahde@UTA.FI> wrote:

>>
In the AD&D gane, at least in the 2nd ed, invisibility belongs to the
convocation of illusions. In effect, a person under the spell invisibility
wasn't physically invisible (light bending and all that), but
unnoticeable. If you have high INT, you can see through that.
Undead, especially those of high powers, are mostly immune to illusions,
which should make them immune to invisibility as well. This has been the
house rule in our AD&D group, I'm not sure if it is in the rulebooks as
well.
What about D&D?
>>

Well, I find this line from the AD&D rules VEERY confusing. U see, in old
D&D undead are simply immune to mind affecting spells, which doesn't
always mean they can see through illusions. There's a difference between
being immune to spells that affect your mind directly and spells that create
being immune to spells that affect your mind directly and spells that create illusions.
In the first case, u can be immune to say ESP, Feeblemind, stun, and all
those spells that conjure images DIRECTLY in your mind.
In the second case, spells that create illusions in an area or on another
target, i.e. do not affect the undead's mind directly (with a ST), are as
effective against undead as against any other living being.

That said, since Invisibility gets no ST to the viewers to spot the invisible
object or person, than no, undead don't see invisible people. OTOH, when
undead make contact with a phantasmal force or a hallucinatory terrain
(which normally give a ST to disbelieve), they automatically recognize them as illusions IMHO.

The point to me is only this.


>>
 "Whilst in the ethereal plane, a detect invisible spell
can be used to detect a person on Prime plane who has cast invisibility on
her/himself." - So, an invisible person would be "phased out", so to
speak, in the in-between of Prime and Ether?
>>

uh? no sorry, Detect invisible can be used to see in the Prime from the Ethereal, period. This is just another side effect of the spell, but it doesn't mean that an invisible person has entered Ethereal plane, else he won't be able to move (as per Rules Cyclopedia and COmpanion rules, u need Fly spell or somesuch other spell to move in Ethereal plane). Or do u imply that a 2nd level spell allows u to PHASE, SEE AND MOVE in the Ethereal plane?? ;)

PS: by the by, for those interested, I've updated my Mystara English site with D&D Mystara-Spelljammer stuff... just in case, the URL is:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967


DM
Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac
Lt. Cmdr. of U.S.S. Unicorn

"You don't stop playing because you grow old:
you grow old because you stop playing!"

Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967
And Mystara Italian Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940

Join the Mystara Webring at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html
Join the Starfleet Academy at:
http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM)

------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 20:54:22 +0200 From: DM Subject: Re: Immunities and vulnerabilities

On Wed, 8 May 2002 00:13:50 -0600, Angelo Bertolli <abertoll@HOTMAIL.COM> asked:

>>
Also, I've never understood why undead are immune to slow (because it's
MENTAL??)  That's a weird one.  So they also can't be hasted?  Moving really
fast is mental also?
>>

They're immune to slow AND cannot benefit from Haste cause their metabolism is dead. Their cellular tissues and muscles don't react to hasting or slowing anymore, so these two spells mean nothing to them. Also, note that Haste and Slow do not haste or slow the mind, merely the muscles' reactions to thoughts... so basically they slow down the nervous system in all of the body. it's a 'body' effect, not a mental one.

>>
In particular, if a Mystic is immune to slow using Mindblock, they can also
not be hasted?  (Not that they'd need it.)
>>

???? Nope, who said Mystic is immune to slow using Mindblock? He's only only immune to spells and effects affecting DIRECTLY HIS MIND. period.

DM
Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac
Lt. Cmdr. of U.S.S. Unicorn

"You don't stop playing because you grow old:
you grow old because you stop playing!"

Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967
And Mystara Italian Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940

Join the Mystara Webring at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html
Join the Starfleet Academy at:
http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM)

------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 11:55:39 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: Undead and invisibility I always have a house rules, - that illusion/phantasm does indeed affect undead or any creature that perceives light/vision in the same way. - invisibility on the basis of charm, will not affect undead - undead can detect life, and know the general area of life creatures - invisibility to undead makes living creatures appear as "non-life" and thus will always be invisible to undead. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of Ville V Lahde > Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 5:53 AM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: [MYSTARA] Undead and invisibility > > > In the AD&D gane, at least in the 2nd ed, invisibility belongs to the > convocation of illusions. In effect, a person under the spell > invisibility > wasn't physically invisible (light bending and all that), but > unnoticeable. If you have high INT, you can see through that. > Undead, especially those of high powers, are mostly immune to > illusions, > which should make them immune to invisibility as well. This > has been the > house rule in our AD&D group, I'm not sure if it is in the > rulebooks as > well. > > What about D&D? If I remember my Companion book right, > invisibility isn't > an illusion. (Bear with me). In the original spell > description there is no > mention of the "metaphysics" of the spell, just its effects. > But in the > Companion book, when ethereal plane is discussed, I think I remember a > short passage on invisibility. > I have lost my tattered Companion book somewhere, as I moved to using > Cyclopedia years ago. So I may remember it wrong. I think it > was something > along these lines: "Whilst in the ethereal plane, a detect > invisible spell > can be used to detect a person on Prime plane who has cast > invisibility on > her/himself." - So, an invisible person would be "phased out", so to > speak, in the in-between of Prime and Ether? > > So, back to the original question: Can powerful undead, > spectres in this > case, notice an invisible person who moves around silently? > If it was just a case of illusionary hiding, I'd say no. Many > undead, like > skeletons, have NO EYES, thus, no regular sight. Perhaps they > sense the > precense of life and are drawn to it. Perhaps some of them > smell blood. > Whatever. In any case, they would sense an invisible person. > > But if one "phases out" towards the Ether, can one's blood be > smelled or > life force sensed? > > I need good ideas for this soon. Of course, my word is final > when it comes > to our own group. But in the next weekend a thief is most > likely going to > spy on a spectre "hive", and I want to have good arguments at hand. > > Ville > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 14:24:54 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: Undead and invisibility I think going that direction is getting too complicated. But, if we must then consider this. The prime plane has shadows into the ethereal plane. The invisibility spell cloaks these shadows as well, so those on the ethereal plane can't see an invisible person on the prime plane. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of Chris Furneaux > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 7:25 PM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Undead and invisibility > > > > I have lost my tattered Companion book somewhere, as > > I moved to using > > Cyclopedia years ago. So I may remember it wrong. I > > think it was something > > along these lines: "Whilst in the ethereal plane, a > > detect invisible spell > > can be used to detect a person on Prime plane who > > has cast invisibility on > > her/himself." - So, an invisible person would be > > "phased out", so to > > speak, in the in-between of Prime and Ether? > > I don't have a copy of the coppanion rules but the RC > says a detect invisible spell on the etheral plane can > be used to see the prime plane. Nothing about seeing > invisible people. I'm not sure how you would rule in > AD&D but I would say that even if a person was > invisible on the prime they would not be on the > etheral and so could be seen by creatures that could > see both planes at once. (etheral natural creatures > perhaps like haunts) but I think one can normally see > only in one plane unless they use some sort of magic > like detect invisibility. > > > undead, spectres in this > > > If it was just a case of illusionary hiding, I'd say > > no. Many undead, like > > skeletons, have NO EYES, thus, no regular sight. > > Perhaps they sense the > > precense of life and are drawn to it. > > I think you cannot generalize undead for this. You > need to specify the once living undead (haunts) and > the animated dead (skelitons and zombies) and the not > really dead undead (vampires, lich's). Only the first > in my book would have any chance of seeing the person > while the last one may be able to sence but not > pinpoint them and animated dead only being able to see > as a person as it is a magical sight. that is of > course if the invisible is visible in the etheral and > if something can see both at once. > > To me I would generally rule no. > > Hope that helps. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness > http://health.yahoo.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 14:30:21 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: Undead and invisibility "In the AD&D gane, at least in the 2nd ed, invisibility belongs to the convocation of illusions. In effect, a person under the spell invisibility wasn't physically invisible (light bending and all that), but unnoticeable." I totally disagree with that. From my understanding illusion/phantasm spells were always actually bending light period! High intelligence simply notes discrepancies in the illusion, e.g. the shadow is not the right proportion. There can be a charm based illusion, like with a psionic power. This is where a person is not noticed. I think these types of spells would be more costly, as the person believes the person is not there, even though any sensory power can detect that person. A person invisible through charm/enchantment to many individuals would have in affect a mass charm type of spell. Naturally most undead are immune to charm spells and other mind-affecting spells/powers. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 14:35:57 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: How many 0e levels equal 3e level? Hi all, I was wondering how many oD&D (0e) class levels are equivelent in D&D 3e levels. So for example, an 18th level mage would be what equivelent in 3e? I vaguely remember some formula for 0e to 2e conversion, but I imagine 3e will be different... = Joaquin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 14:38:15 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: SpellJammer d20 in Polyhedron May I just got the latest Polyhedron for May 2002. It has a lot of good SpellJammer d20 material. It is most excellent. I think that a lot of this material could be re-used for ship construction (ala Thyatian- Alphatian Empire Gazetteer style) in d20. - Joaquin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 14:43:42 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Cool Maps in Dungeon May The may issue of Dungeon includes a lot of just awesome maps. The latest Dragon has some good stuff on Castles as well... I wish there was someway to acquire the library of vector images (Illustrator format or ESPF) and utilize them in our own Mystara maps. - Joaquin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 14:56:01 -0700 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Cool Maps in Dungeon May You can always use the dungeon maker online. JK Wolf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 15:40:19 +0000 From: Mike Harvey Subject: Re: How many 0e levels equal 3e level? macnerd wrote: > I was wondering how many oD&D (0e) class levels are equivelent in D&D 3e > levels. My take on it: If you're not using Weapon Mastery in OD&D, level 36 tops out around level 25 in 3E for most characters, although wizards stay pretty competitive nearly to 36th level. A 36th level 0E wizard still has more spells than an epic 3E Wiz20 with INT 36, but the 3E wizard has more toys, so it's a toss-up. (Some feel the 3E spells are more powerful, especially with metamagic; I do not.) A reasonable rule for non-wizards is 1:1 up to level 16, and then 2:1 for each level after that. IIRC the Mystara3E project is topping everyone out around level 24-26, although I think they're waiting for the epic level book before working out the details. If you're using Weapon Mastery, Grand Master is worth around 8-10 fighter levels. This tends to even things out and all characters convert more-or-less nicely at 1:1 up to level 36. Except of course for magic-users, who now convert to something like Wiz36/Ftr10 in 3E. This also conveniently matches the official conversion guide. Others disagree, so get some more opinions and then pick the one you like. This is how *I* would do it. > So for example, an 18th level mage would be what equivelent in 3e? By spell level, probably about level 15, although the OD&D wizard has a few more lower level spells. So maybe 16. If he's a Grand Master with some weapon, probably a Wiz15/Ftr10 or so. > I vaguely remember some formula for 0e to 2e conversion, but I imagine 3e > will be different... There were about 4 different 0e to 2e conversions, depending on which supplement you read. Someone summarized them somewhere once... I think various authors just provided their own conversions, rather than there being any sort of official policy. Mike -- Mike Harvey -- Beaverton, Oregon http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 00:33:50 +0200 From: Daniel Mayer Subject: Re: Undead and invisibility IMHO, Invisibility never affects undead. I cannot reach my 1st ed. basic/expert books now, but in 2nd ed. it was clearly stated that invisibility affects "normal vision" and "infravision". Undead do not see "normal". "normal" means "by eyes", else it wouldn't make sense. I don't think they're recieving signals by infravision, because it'd need organic receptables, too. So invisible creatures should have indeed a kind of "life-sense". THinking of invisibility as kind of charm, it would have to be at least 7th lvl, because it has to affect an indefinite amount of people. Being invisible in a well-crowded street in Specularum... a charm to 200 people perhaps? Hardly. > I have lost my tattered Companion book somewhere, as I moved to using > Cyclopedia years ago. So I may remember it wrong. I think it was something > along these lines: "Whilst in the ethereal plane, a detect invisible spell > can be used to detect a person on Prime plane who has cast invisibility on > her/himself." Very near of the written lore :). But without last half-sentence. It can be used to see persons on the prime plane. Written on page 18 of DM's Companion Book. On the other hand, it's one of the (just now realized) questions of rules within the OD&D rules: As stated in the monsters' section, ghosts and spirits are NOT affected by invisibility. Combining backwards it can be interpreted that lesser undead than these CAN be affected. But as said before: Expert/Basic rule books aren't available at the moment to me. IMC, I treated that question (without reading the rules in depth) as following: Skeletons, zombies and mummies are too stupid for using life-sense correctly (-> don't see inv.) all above incl. spectres are too intelligent to be fooled by inv. Hope I could help by Daniel Mayer aka Laren Nightmaster, Tower of Dreams ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 00:40:06 +0200 From: Daniel Mayer Subject: Re: ESDs > Many gaming companies with noble > ambitions have gone by the wayside because they > weren't economically viable. It's sad, but true... > > Anyway, I'll step off my soapbox and just sincerely > hope that the issue gets resolved soon so that > EVERYONE can get access to the ESD's. > Hi, all! To Damon: Master: "Aggression, haste, ambition. To the dark side they lead." Apprentice: "Is the dark side stronger?" Master: "No. Faster, easier, but stronger? No!" :) But I'm feeling with you. I have some of the GAZs, and recently got Irendi ESD by shady ways. There's no way to get them legaly in germany, too. So I'll wait patiently. Because there's no choice. Daniel Mayer aka Laren Nightmaster Tower of Dreams, Karameikos ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 01:01:22 +0200 From: Daniel Mayer Subject: Re: How many 0e levels equal 3e level? Hi! 18th lvl OD&D mage =^ 16th lvl 2nd ed. =^ 15th lvl 3rd ed. I convert mage levels by the highest spell available. 18th OD&D is able to cast 1 spell of 8th lvl per day. Of course, 2nd and 3rd ed. mages have fewer lower-lvl spells but have other bonuses instead: high int and (in 3rd:) feats. Other charakter classes I convert similar: The fighter 18th lvl OD&D = THACO 9 -> +10 bonus. Quite difficult. Considering the different combat rules I would place him into lvl 14. And so on. It may seem unfair, but it's more important to me to place them correct in the sense of "playability" than of fairness. We once tried to "upgrade" the PCs from 9th to 16th lvl (OD&D), and everyone died. They couldn't handle their powers. The mage abused powerful spells on cheap monsters, the fighter was overconfident and the cleric.... "hey! I can raise everyone, just go in and try that monster!"... So a group of ex-18th-lvl-OD&D would move between 12th and 16th lvl perhaps. And each one at different level, most likely. macnerd wrote: > > Hi all, > > I was wondering how many oD&D (0e) class levels are equivelent in D&D 3e > levels. > > So for example, an 18th level mage would be what equivelent in 3e? > > I vaguely remember some formula for 0e to 2e conversion, but I imagine 3e > will > be different... > > = Joaquin > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 20:45:18 -0700 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Undead and invisibility > I think going that direction is getting too > complicated. agreed but thats what happens when you try to explain the rules. > But, if we must then consider this. The prime plane > has shadows into the ethereal plane. The > invisibility spell cloaks these shadows as well, does it really? I really don't think thats ever been specified. part of my propersition was that detect invisible actually uses the etheral plane to detect invisibility by the shadow that a persons life force casts there. I think it is an imaginative explanation and allows for some interesting roleplaying for anyony using the etheral plane to sneak around. > so those on the ethereal plane can't see an > invisible person on the prime plane. They can't harm him if they are on the etheral so it is not a big deal usually. but it'd be a fun loophole. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th! http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 7 May 2002 to 8 May 2002 (#2002-125) **************************************************************