Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 9 May 2002 to 10 May 2002 (#2002-127) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 11/05/2002, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 3 messages totalling 175 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Undead and invisibility & Spirits (3) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 10:40:52 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Re: Undead and invisibility & Spirits On Wed, 8 May 2002, DM wrote: > >> > "Whilst in the ethereal plane, a detect invisible spell > can be used to detect a person on Prime plane who has cast > invisibility on > her/himself." - So, an invisible person would be "phased > out", so to > speak, in the in-between of Prime and Ether? > > uh? no sorry, Detect invisible can be used to see in the Prime from the > Ethereal, period. This is just another side effect of the spell, but it > doesn't mean that an invisible person has entered Ethereal plane, else he > won't be able to move (as per Rules Cyclopedia and COmpanion rules, u > need Fly spell or somesuch other spell to move in Ethereal plane). Or do > u imply that a 2nd level spell allows u to PHASE, SEE AND MOVE in the > Ethereal plane?? ;) Sure, I remembered the phrase from the Companion book incorrectly - but as you can see from the phrase above, I did never claim that invisibility takes a person to the Ethereal Plane. I just threw an idea that invisibility could allow a person to enter a different "phase", sort of like the Shadowworld in Tolkien when Frodo uses the Ring. But it was just an idea, and no longer relevant, since better thoughts were thrown in on the list. So, OK. Let's collect together some assumptions from the discussion: 1) An illusion spell (2nd level) doesn't charm the persons around, since then it would be able to charm an unlimited amount of people without a ST. Psinonic charms are another matter. 2) Thus a better explanation is the conventional one, that invisibility bends light. (Or one can use the above mentioned "phasing out" idea, the end result is pretty much the same.) 3) Detect invisibility reveals an invisible person on the Prime plane by a) detecting the distortions of light b) detecting the shadow the person casts on the Ethereal plane c) some other method ("sonar", seeing the other "phase" etc.) 4) Detect invisibility can be used to see to the prime plane from the Ethereal plane, but it cannot be used to spy the ethereal plane from the prime plane. (Did I get it right this time?) 5) As was rightly noted, many undead "species" like vampires, zombies etc. have normal eyes, so they should be susceptible to invisibility. Some undead like haunts (?) are said to be immune to it, so that settles the score for them. The only problem that remains are those undead who haven't got normal form of vision, and it seems that house rules are best to settle this. Ok, but what about the Spirit World? I have been using the rules from the Ethengar Gazetteer IMC a few years, but haven't had the time to develop many house rules since they haven't been a central part of the campaign. But now one of the characters has (for campaign-specific reasons) some shamanistic powers. One of them is the ability to leave one's own body and send one's spirit away (like Spirit Sending) - What are the methods available to detect a shaman's spirit that is moving around? Spirit Lore check should work, if I remember correctly, as some shamanistic spells. But what about Detect Invisibility? This is not a case of regular invisibility, so the case is not clear. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 01:40:27 -0700 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Undead and invisibility & Spirits > I just threw an idea that invisibility could allow a > person to enter a different "phase", sort of > like the Shadowworld in Tolkien when Frodo uses the > Ring. But it was just an idea, and no longer > relevant, since better thoughts were thrown in on > the list. I was thinking that the way the ring is presented in the movie, it is more like it's power is similar to travel to the etheral then invisibility. it also explains why he can see the true form of the wraths when he puts the ring on, cause they were etheral native and he became linked with the etheral by putting on the ring. > 4) Detect invisibility can be used to see to the > prime plane from the > Ethereal plane, but it cannot be used to spy the > ethereal plane from the > prime plane. (Did I get it right this time?) officially. But AD&D has a detect etheral as well so you can make it do anything you want. > Some undead like haunts (?) are said to be immune to > it, so that settles the score for them. The only > problem that remains are those undead who haven't > got normal form of vision, and it seems that house > rules are best to settle this. Are they? it is possible that they could be (for reasons I have already mentioned), but I don't think it is specified in the rules. So do what ever suits you... Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th! http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 14:02:37 +0200 From: Daniel Mayer Subject: Re: Undead and invisibility & Spirits Chris Furneaux wrote: > > > 4) Detect invisibility can be used to see to the > > prime plane from the > > Ethereal plane, but it cannot be used to spy the > > ethereal plane from the > > prime plane. (Did I get it right this time?) > > officially. But AD&D has a detect etheral as well so > you can make it do anything you want. IMC, it depends strongly on the spell used itself. In my opinion a det. inv. spell by Etienne functions in other ways as a spell thaught in Specularum by a street-mage. An old traladaran version may function more like shaman spell, so may indeed show the ethereal mirror. DM's choice, I suppose. > > Some undead like haunts (?) are said to be immune to > > it, so that settles the score for them. The only > > problem that remains are those undead who haven't > > got normal form of vision, and it seems that house > > rules are best to settle this. > > Are they? it is possible that they could be (for > reasons I have already mentioned), but I don't think > it is specified in the rules. So do what ever suits > you... Nothing about that in Companion Book (OD&D). But it is stated that haunts are "undead souls", not like skeletons, who are a pile of undead bones. So I would suggest that haunts of every type detects other souls. Therefore it wouldn't detect constructs, etc. Phantoms are said to be in ethereal form when first encountered. So inv. doesn't touch them anyhow. Under "Spirits" it is clearly stated that they're immune to spells below 4th lvl AND that they can sense inv. beings and attack them without penalty. Again the problem: If it is especially mentioned with spirits, it would seem that undead of lesser might are subject to inv... House rules above all! :) Daniel ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 9 May 2002 to 10 May 2002 (#2002-127) ***************************************************************