Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 13 Jan 2002 to 14 Jan 2002 (#2002-15) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 15/01/2002, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 17 messages totalling 514 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. where to place an godolin-like city (2) 2. Finland information 3. where to place an gondolin-like city (3) 4. Great Netspellbooks 5. A Complete Guide to the Cosmos - Ranks of Godhood 6. Fear and Horror in 3e ? (4) 7. Mystaran Almanac 1018 Atlas v1.1 available (2) 8. Ardelphia (was: where to place an gondolin-like city) (2) 9. Ardelphia (was: where to place an gondolin-like ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 00:45:57 -0800 From: Herve Musseau Subject: Re: where to place an godolin-like city Wouldn't Haven, in Vyalian territory, be the designated place for a Gondolin-like city? Canon doesn't say much about Haven; I know there are some fan descriptions of what Haven could be, but IYC it could be MGondolin instead. ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 11:06:59 +0200 From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Re: where to place an godolin-like city I couldn't find the original message that started this thread, so sorry if I'm missing something (for example, is the city supposed to be in the southern countries for campaign purposes). A good place to locate the city might be the Mengul mountains that surround Denagoth and Essuria. You know, the mountain range north of Wendar & Heldann. In the Shadowlord module (X11?) there's talk of the large elven tribes in Denagoth (Lothenar), which the Shadowlord eradicates. Perhaps you could have one of their elven lords as the founder of the city. Decades ago the lord received a vision from his Patron, hinting of the coming destruction of the Lothenar. Very much like Turgon in Silmarillion, he went on a quest to find a secret valley where a refuge of elves could be constructed. Ville ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 11:24:31 +0200 From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Finland information My infromation on the pre-historic stages of Finnish history is a bit sketchy. But I just had a long coffee break with a colleague, who filled me in. So, for those interested in Finnish history, here goes: During the Viking era (800-1000 A.D.) the area of Finland was quite sparsely populated by several tribes. In the southwestern coasts and islands (present day Turku area) there were the Finns (pl. suomalaiset?). In the central inlands there were the people of Tavastia (Häme, pl. hämäläiset), and to the east, closer to Novgorod (later northern Russia) the people of Karjala (pl. karjalaiset). Also, along the western coasts there were settlements that I think were built by Swedish people. The southern coasts of Finland were much less inhabited, but there were some trading posts and fortresses on small islands. The Vikings might do trade and occasional raiding on their way to Novgorod. (Novgorod was a city that was founded by them, but it was absorbed by the slavic cultures quite quickly.) The most Viking contacts must have been with the Finns, perhaps with those hämäläiset who manned the southern posts (the latter is an educated guess, not knowledge), and of course the karjalaiset by land trade. What about the Lapps? The lapp tribes stretched pretty far south at this time, and had a lot of cultural contact with the other tribes, both positive and destructive. The conflicts that emerged must have been about the control of the wildlands and the game and fur animals there. It seems that the soutern tribes used Lapps as a labour force or took tribute from them, but I once heard that the traditional idea of Lapp subjugation could be over-emphasised. In any case, it is very unlikely that Kalevala was sparked by the conflicts with the Lapps. It might be that the two tribes in the saga (Väinölä and Pohjola) represent the hämäläiset and the karjalaiset. Some material might be about the hämäläiset and the Finns, as part of the poetic material was gathered in western Finland (although most of it is of Karjala origin.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:43:41 +0100 From: thibault sarlat Subject: where to place an gondolin-like city good idea... yet the mountain range is not very large...i mean the width isn't big... we'll need at least 3 contiguous lines made of 5 8 miles hexes in a row. I'll look my maps.... we have a good spot north of the naga river, in the mengul mountains... or another spot due west of the dead forest of lothenar, at the same latitude as the Idris tower, west of the malor swamps (near a volcano which could hide the eventual smokes coming from the city....) thib ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 09:12:48 -0500 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: where to place an gondolin-like city > > good idea... > yet the mountain range is not very large...i mean the width isn't big... > we'll need at least 3 contiguous lines made of 5 8 miles hexes in a row. > I'll look my maps.... > > we have a good spot north of the naga river, in the mengul mountains... > or another spot due west of the dead forest of lothenar, at the same > latitude as the Idris tower, west of the malor swamps (near a volcano which > could hide the eventual smokes coming from the city....) Cool. I'll keep looking too. Many thanks for the suggestions, everyone. Essentially, what we may not have in mountain range "width", could be in part made up for in height. The only way into this place is via a hidden tunnel (it's a secret city, after all). The Mengul Range would be good because IMO the Wendar/Denagoth region is very Tolkienseque, anyway. I've always imagined Denagoth to be Mystara's Mordor, with the Shadowlord as Sauron, while Wendar seems (to me) to be a combination of Gondor and Mirkwood. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 18:36:42 +0100 From: Daniel Mayer Subject: Great Netspellbooks Hi all! Years ago (ok, just three of them) I found this Great Netspellbook somewhere. Does anyone know if it was converted and perhaps extended for 3rd Ed.? After reading the rules fifth time and creating the 20th-or-more PC/NPC, I slowly get pleased with the new system. Any clues? Daniel Mayer aka Laren Nightmaster, Tower of Dreams ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:07:29 -0800 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: where to place an gondolin-like city Of course one good place would be the ruins of Ardelphia! JK Wolf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 23:23:09 +0100 From: la Volpe Subject: A Complete Guide to the Cosmos - Ranks of Godhood OLD ONES The Old Ones may not exist, or they may be the true creators of the Cosmos. The few evidences of their existance are questionable, and they represent a big question mark whose answer (maybe) lies beyond the Vortex. OUTER BEINGS There are two groups of Outer Beings: the Ulterior Ones and the Mirror Gods. The Ulterior Ones live partly in the Normal and partly in the Mirror Tetraspace, while the Mirror Gods live in the Mirror Tetraspace, where they are gods and rule the laws of this endless chaos. Although both groups think and act in ways totally beyond Normal comprehension, given their "unnatural nature", they have completely different goals. The Mirror Gods are not much different from the Normal divinities, while the Ulterior Ones eternally plot to regain their lost physical dimension and avenge themselves of the emprisonement they have been confined to by the Mirror and Normal Gods, during the Battle of Birth of Universes. TRUE GODS The True Gods are the supreme rulers of the Normal Tetraspace. They are a small number, compared to the Athanatoi and the Immortals. Theorically they have retired from the Normal Tetraspace after the defeat of the Ulterior Ones, and have left the Multiverse in the hands of the Athanatoi and the Immortals. The existance of the True Gods has been hidden by the Athanatoi to all other living creatures, although some doubts on the existance of superior gods have been raised by some of the Immortals and other "new" divinities. These doubts have given way to the "legends" about the Old Ones, although wheter the true Old Ones exist is a problem that the True Gods can't solve. The True Gods have separated the Normal Tetraspace in many separated Multiverses, and have told each group of Athanatoi put to live in each of these Multiverses that they were the only ones to survive the Battle against the Ulterior Ones. Then they pretended to retire from the Multiverse, but most of them has taken the form of several Athanatoi and Immortals, in fact controlling the Multiverse. The True Gods have immense powers: each of them may assume the form of dozens of Immortals at a same time, that they send in the various Multiverses to watch over the Immortals' and Athanatoi's behavior. ATHANATOI The most powerful of the non-True-Gods, the Athanatoi are the first living creatures generated by the Thoughts of the Gods that sided with the True Gods in the Battle of Birth of Universes. Each Multiverse hosts its Athanatoi - they are few, and very powerful, ranking among the most powerful (and the oldest) divinities of their Multiverse. Some Athanatoi are in fact True Gods that have assumed a lesser form (see above). The Athanatoi have hidden to the lesser-ranking divinities the existance of Outer Beings and True Gods, pretending to have forgotten the first stages of their existance because they are too old, or that they incarnate primary forces of nature from which they were generated during the birth of the Multiverse. This makes even more difficult for the lesser-ranking divinities to discover the Truth of the Origin of the Multiverse, hidden under layers of godly lies, also because Athanatoi from one Multiverse do not recognize as Athanatoi those from another. Athanatoi cannot be harmed or killed in any way by Immortals and Mortals, and do not depend on their followers to keep their strenght. They can be harmed by True Gods, however. It is not known wheter they could actually harm each other directly, as they haven't tried yet after billions of years. IMMORTALS "Immortals" is a term used to call all lesser-ranking divinities, that once were mortals and that through impossible odds, willpower and the belief of their followers, have ascended Immortality in the Prime Plane, the Plane of Belief. Depending on the whim of the Immortals and their followers, they can be called Gods, Immortals, Divinities, Demons, whatever. Each Multiverse has its "hierarchy of Immortals", different from Multiverse and Multiverse: the fact that Immortals from different Multiverses cannot recognize each other as similar creatures have prevented them to discover the secret of the existance of many Multiverses. Moreover, Immortals believe that the Athanatoi have ascended godhood like they did, ascending from mortality to immortality, or that they incarnate primary forces of the Multiverse, and do not suspect that they are in fact a different type of gods. Immortals depend on their followers to keep their strength and powers, and thus they are heavily involved in mortal matters, especially from the planets and regions from which they arose. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 15:33:15 -0800 From: The Stalker Subject: Fear and Horror in 3e ? I've been studying the rules of 3e on and off for a long time now. The other days something occurred to me... I can find no rules for Fear and Horror checks in 3e! When WOTC killed 2e Ravenloft, they argued that its qualities wouldn't be lost because the Fear and Horror checks of Ravenloft would go right into 3e. So where are they? Have I missed them in the core books? - The Stalker ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 15:51:13 -0800 From: davek Subject: Re: Fear and Horror in 3e ? The Stalker wrote: > I've been studying the rules of 3e on and off for a long time now. The > other days something occurred to me... I can find no rules for Fear and > Horror checks in 3e! > > When WOTC killed 2e Ravenloft, they argued that its qualities wouldn't be > lost because the Fear and Horror checks of Ravenloft would go right into > 3e. So where are they? Have I missed them in the core books? > > - The Stalker I believe the White Wolf/Arthaus Ravenloft d20 system has what you are looking for. The Ravenloft Setting book. Dave Keyser ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 15:57:48 -0800 From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Fear and Horror in 3e ? On Mon, 14 Jan 2002 15:51:13 -0800, davek wrote: > The Stalker wrote: > >> I've been studying the rules of 3e on and off for a long time now. The >> other days something occurred to me... I can find no rules for Fear and >> Horror checks in 3e! >> >> When WOTC killed 2e Ravenloft, they argued that its qualities wouldn't be >> lost because the Fear and Horror checks of Ravenloft would go right into >> 3e. So where are they? Have I missed them in the core books? >> >> - The Stalker > > I believe the White Wolf/Arthaus Ravenloft d20 system has what you > are looking for. The Ravenloft Setting book. > Well, they ought to be! Ravenloft can't work without those. It's just that I was looking forward to having them in the core rules, which is precisely what WotC promised. Did they abandon that promise? - The Stalker ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 15:59:45 -0800 From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Mystaran Almanac 1018 Atlas v1.1 available On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 01:28:49 -0800, Herve Musseau wrote: > The new version of the Atlas of the MA1018 is now available. > You can find it at http://almanac.starflung.com . > All the files are available this time (and they should even work!), rtf+pic and > pdf. If you downloaded the pics of v1.0 the file is the same, but the rtf and > pdf files are changed. > Changes in v1.1: addition of the horoscope and a NPC's obituary; also, one > minor change but not in MA content. > Thank you for your patience. > I cannot download PDF#12 and PDF#13, and the 12mb PDF wouldn't unzip for me. Help? - The Stalker ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:03:48 -0800 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Mystaran Almanac 1018 Atlas v1.1 available > I cannot download PDF#12 and PDF#13, and the 12mb > PDF wouldn't unzip for me. Could be an error in the download, I know the 12mb file was working from starflung cause it worked for me... as for the others they don't work for me either, but you could try the geocities almanac site. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:21:16 -0800 From: The Stalker Subject: Ardelphia (was: where to place an gondolin-like city) On Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:07:29 -0800, Joe Kelly wrote: > Of course one good place would be the ruins of Ardelphia! > I recently used those IMC. I always wondered about that place... I mean, the orcs raided the place, but then began fighting amongst themselves until they nearly wiped each other out. Eventually they ran and the ruins were available to Darokin again, yet nobody settled the place in over a hundred years and it remains a ruin to this day... Pretty suspicious, isn't it? So I had Ardelphia be a cursed place. It just looks like the ruins of a town or city, but there is something there that spooks people into going elsewhere, though it is so subtle (whatever it is) that they might not even notice this. To me the place is haunted and cursed with some ancient evil let loose in the ruins. This "thing" caused dispute among the orcs and made them go mad and kill each other, only nobody really noticed because orcs aren't too bright in the first place... My idea was that when the orcs attacked the city in AC 846, the people of the city were in utter panic. One wizard in the city was so desperate that he took the ultimate risk! For years he had been studying the fate of the notorious Ithel family and so had rediscovered some of their research into dark magic. In his despair, he opened a Gate to a lower plane and tried to force a demon to do his bidding and slay the invading orcs! Not a good idea, since the demon ate him alive and cursed his soul to become a ghost who would haunt the ruins of Ardelphia... - The Stalker ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:49:09 -0800 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Ardelphia (was: where to place an gondolin-like city) Well, IMC I have made Ardelphia the home of many tribes gathered from the = Broken Lands. Each controls a section of the ruins as a base for holding = goods from raids and for trading for weapons. Of course now Lord Stark has = hired several groups of mercenaries to rout them out. It will be a long = drawn out battle because the forces in Ardelphia have a very strong = security force protecting it. The Fire Legion of the Broken Lands (Skull = Warrior Legion). Of course no one knows this yet and the so called first = attack is going to get devastated by well armed defending forces who can = actually fight a large style campaign.=20 Any other interesting ideas for Ardelphia out there? Let's see some = more... JK Wolf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 21:42:16 -0500 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Fear and Horror in 3e ? From: "The Stalker" > > Well, they ought to be! Ravenloft can't work without those. It's just that > I was looking forward to having them in the core rules, which is precisely > what WotC promised. Did they abandon that promise? The basic mechanic for Fear, Horror, and Madness checks in 3E is a Will save with a DC determined by the source of the mental effect in question. What the Ravenloft d20 book adds are feats that grant bonuses +4 to saves against each of those specific types of effects as well as specific conditions that require saves vs. these types of effects. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 23:12:54 -0500 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Ardelphia (was: where to place an gondolin-like My players will be going there soon, to seek out some lost treasures said to have been left there by a patron's deceased relative. Little to they know that there is a curse there - so many people died horribly there that all who sleep within or near its ruins are forced to relive to horrific fall of the city in their dreams. I plan to play out a gruesome rampage as scores of humanoids break through the defences and wreak havoc, while the PCs find themselves trying to defend the populace. If they "die", they will wake up, but they will have bad night terrors afterwards. Thereafter, whenever they see the ruins, they will also see, just for an instant, what happened in a particular area as the city fell (ie: the mossy foundations of a house turn into a flaming home filled with people desperate to escape, but a second later the observer sees the ruins again, etc.) There will be a powerful humanoid wokan there who has discovered the sad properties of this place, and who harnesses the energies for his/her foul purposes, while ruling over a nasty tribe. If the PCs kill the wokan, and destroy a humanoid shrine that was erected in one of the cellars, the land will be cleansed, and the restless spirits who still haunt the place will be freed. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 13 Jan 2002 to 14 Jan 2002 (#2002-15) ***************************************************************