Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 2 Jul 2002 to 3 Jul 2002 (#2002-170) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 04/07/2002, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 24 messages totalling 1118 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. It's quiet... (8) 2. Consequences when the dwarves left in WOTI? (7) 3. Modrigswerg (4) 4. PTK Meeting (5) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 01:19:02 -0600 From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Re: It's quiet... I thought it was 2nd ed vs 3rd ed that got the most responses :> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murphy, Jason" Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 5:29 PM Subject: Re: It's quiet... > Thats spell is easily countered by the "OD&D is better than 3rd Ed flaming" > cantrip. > > -----Original Message----- > From: The Stalker [mailto:alphatian@ANGELFIRE.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 7:01 AM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: [MYSTARA] It's quiet... > > > So who cast a Silence MML radius spell? > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > This e-mail and any attachment is for authorised use by the intended recipient(s) only. It may contain proprietary material, confidential information and/or be subject to legal privilege. It should not be copied, disclosed to, retained or used by, any other party. If you are not an intended recipient then please promptly delete this e-mail and any attachment and all copies and inform the sender. Thank you. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:05:03 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Re: It's quiet... My friend just got NWN and told me during a phone conversation, that for the first time in a long time he had a game that made it very hard to go to work and get to sleep after work. The packing line at the bakery is starting to seem like an interruption to "the real life". As a clarification: he works only night shifts. His usual routine is to get home from work 8am and sleep until 2-3 pm. Now he continues NWN until 1am and sleeps a few hours until he gets back to NWN and rushes to work. I hops this is just a phase, since I'm about to get my copy on friday - and OUCH, the missus will be off the whole weekend! (Actually it's her "stag" night - I'm about to get a powerful magical ring of Eternal Bonding and Servitude in a few weeks...) Well, actually I think I'll leave NWN on the shelf for one night longer, since on saturday we are going to continue playing X10, and I had some questions I'd like to ask. Two PCs (14th level thief, 14th level cleric), plus the level 10 elf wife of the thief are going to take on the spectre menace in Five Shires. For those who haven't read the module, that's 30-40 spectres, who terrorise the countryside. The PCs have just arrived in Shireton and they know from their Striker ally (who they sent to Shireton beforehand) about the general situation, but not the location of the spectre lair. Eventually they are going to find the lair and are going to launch raids into it. I'm drawing up a couple of Masters to bolster their troops (and make the situation more believable - it stands to reason that the halflings would do something about the matter, too). Still it's going to be tough. So, I wanted your opinion on some things? 1) Spectres and invisibility Actually we covered this issue a month of so back, but I still haven't made up my mind. For example: The thief puts on his ring of invisibility, his wife casts a fly spell on him, and he decides to scout the lair. Can the spectres see him? Or do they just sense his presence, like "smell" his precious and delicious life force? 2) Spectres and sunlight Are spectres fully nocturnal creatures? That is, can they be harmed by sunlight, or does it dirve them away? The rules make no mention of this, and this isn't a rule question, more a matter of opinion. 3) Protection from evil and stealth What if the elf wench decides to cast fly, invisibility and protection from evil, and goes to scout the lair? When she refrains from attacking the spectres she is invulnerable to them. (protection spell - which I always thought was a bit too powerful for a level 1 spell, but since its established in our campaign early on, I can't just go and change it.) But I think the spectres could very well notice her at least if her protection shield touched one of them. What do you think? Another "protection from evil" question/suggestion: Ok, a person under protection is invulnerable to "enchanted" creatures. But I think one cannot use the shield as a weapon to "push" away enemies (wasn't it mentioned somewhere? I don't have the rulebook here), so in principle the spectres should be able to "swamp" a protected person, keeping him/her from escaping. If you have any ideas, don't hesitate. By the way, just a few days ago I managed to play out the Nomad war until the week 14. I'll post the third month War Update some time soon. Darokin City sige was broken - but after a full month of battles. Casualties rose to about 18 000 (!), if one includes those of the Nomad prisoners (humanoids) that were excecuted. I think after Five Shires I'll send the PC's for briefing to Darokin City, to witness this carnage. That should offer an opportunity for some nice environmental descriptions... hundreds of bodies floating downstream towards Athenos, smell of rotting flesh for miles around the city, the moaning of the thousands of wounded, thousands of unmarked graves and the mounting funeral pyres, Alfheimian elves carrying solemnly their dead... Ville ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:00:58 +1000 From: Michael Diehm Subject: Re: Consequences when the dwarves left in WOTI? Good thinking! The build up of dwarves near the Shadow Elf Territories could have been discovered by the Shadow Elves and disrupted their Canolbarth invasion plans. The xenophobic elves would have marshalled a lot of resources to the area to ensure the dwarves did not discover their tunnels (ie the tunnelshifters) and possibly had to divert some troops there for insurance. So I would say that it could have hindered their plans and reduced the scale of the Canolbarth invasion. On another matter, I must say I was astonished to learn of the heated debates between people who have adopted areas of Mystara (like Thyatis and Alphatia). Whilst no one wants these "flames" to reappear, I thought there was some value in them if the emotion could be scaled back. The discussions gave me a lot of ideas on how the states would react to each other. If we could harnass that dynamism to explore each state's options and strategies towards each other without having to decide "the one and true definitive result" that makes everyone unhappy, we could create some very good material. Often what is written falls on one person to come with all the ideas....there is no one else to bounce ideas off, offer alternate view points or to correct obvious factual errors. Looking forward to AC1018 Events in quiet anticipation. Cheers _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:56:42 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Modrigswerg Ave! fellow Mystarans. I was taking a look at the Vaults and noticed with sadness at the lack of material regarding one of the most interesting races of D&D and Fantasy in general: DWARVES! So I was thinking about writing an early history of the race that could explain why dwarves were dying out, the Modrigswerg's meddling with entropics and the origin of dark elves and gnomes. I begun to do some work on it when suddenly I was overwhelmed by the number of things I should do to have it all consistent. So I wanted to hear some comments on: 1) what do you think of dark elves\ 2) should all Modrigswerg clans be isolated AND on bad terms with Rockhome? I was thinking that maybe some clans did some internal purging after they were exiliated 3) how can we reconcile the Modrigserg's exile with the fact that dwarves come from the Northern Reaches and that Kagyar gave them false memories and that in HW Reference Book there is written that the dwarves that remained in Vestland would eventually become the Modrigswerg? 4) when did the Modrigswerg's exile take place? I want to know what you think of this before trying to give my version. Thanks in advance for the interest, Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Scarica il nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: con webcam, nuove faccine e tante altre novità. http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.messenger.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:02:03 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Consequences when the dwarves left in WOTI? Ave, Stalker, old enemy! You wrote: > Still, I don't suppose it is impossible this had an > impact and the players > didn't seem to think so either. What do people on > the MML think? Interesting question. The answer lies in the answer to the following question: "Is there a common, connected Mystara's Underworld, or is it just some caves underground in which some people live?" "Is there a way to go from the Rat City in Thyatis to Rockhome? From Rockhome to the gnome caves used by the cobolds in Vestland and Soderfjord? From the Orclands to the City of the Stars?" If the answer is yes, at least partly (I don't mean that you can get from Graakhalia to Norwold), well, then probably it influenced the Shadow elves...but then we should assume that the dwarves knew of the SE far before AC 1000. If the answer is not...well, then the dwarves' disappearance underground didn't influence the shadow elves. Vale! Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis Id the answer is not, ______________________________________________________________________ Scarica il nuovo Yahoo! Messenger: con webcam, nuove faccine e tante altre novità. http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.messenger.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:50:44 EDT From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: It's quiet... <> The sad thing is that that is true. I have my fighter venturing into Never Woods right now. Respawns and the resulting XP penalties are making her a gimp. I have been pleased with it so far. Unlike Dungeon Siege, there seems to be a degree of purpose in creature placement. Aribeth...I'd do her. She reminds me of a young Teri Weigle. Time to reroll and make my next one with max Charisma. LOL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:25:56 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: It's quiet... Ville wrote: > hops this is just a phase, since I'm about to get my copy on friday - and > OUCH, the missus will be off the whole weekend! (Actually it's her "stag" > night - I'm about to get a powerful magical ring of Eternal Bonding and > Servitude in a few weeks...) Gaaaaahhh! Don't do it, Ville! Run! It's too late for me, but save yourself!! Just kidding. :-) Congratulations, Ville, on your forthcoming status as "Ringbearer"! I've been carrying one since November 2000, and I'm still alive and (mostly) sane. Well, the sanity bit has been slipping away for some time now, so I don't think there's any connection there... ;-) > 1) Spectres and invisibility > Actually we covered this issue a month of so back, but I still haven't > made up my mind. For example: The thief puts on his ring of invisibility, > his wife casts a fly spell on him, and he decides to scout the lair. Can > the spectres see him? Or do they just sense his presence, like "smell" his > precious and delicious life force? I would argue that spectres (and most other forms of undead that don't have eyes per se) sense living creatures as opposed to seeing them. This sensory ability, however, is very precise, and functions in almost the same way as vision. Thus, IMC a pack of undead would hone in on an invisible PC just as quickly as they would an adventurer who was visible. > Are spectres fully nocturnal creatures? That is, can they be harmed by > sunlight, or does it dirve them away? The rules make no mention of this, > and this isn't a rule question, more a matter of opinion. I would say they don't like sunlight, and would prefer to avoid it if they could, but they are not harmed by it. Basically, there has to be something they *really* want, or a powerful undead liege must drive them hard, for spectres to pursue something into daylight. If it's just some fellow who blunders into their lair, and then runs outside, then I would say they would not pursue. > But I think the spectres could very well notice her at least if her protection >shield touched one of them. What do you think? They would certainly notice her, and perhaps a few of them would tail her wherever she went. > Another "protection from evil" question/suggestion: Ok, a person under > protection is invulnerable to "enchanted" creatures. But I think one > cannot use the shield as a weapon to "push" away enemies (wasn't it > mentioned somewhere? I don't have the rulebook here), so in principle the > spectres should be able to "swamp" a protected person, keeping him/her > from escaping. They would certainly do that, IMO. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:06:26 -0500 From: Dylan Rickards Subject: Re: It's quiet... How sad, But how true, I have finally figured out how I am going to set up my world. It will be a small persistent world (at first one town [Threshold] with Mirros coming soon, and maybe a small dungeon, castle caldewell or the like) that probably will behave in a somewhat h/s manner when I am not looking, but with weekly sessions that will bring together members of my old mystara group and I will gamemaster. I just would never have the time (if I could ever get a good plan for it) to create a roleplaying environment like the PnP game without a GM to handle dialogue. I am trying to make more cooperative and giving out rewards that are not financially based in order to encourage a more "roleplaying atmosphere" but I cannot write 500-1000 lines of conversion for anyone much less everyone. Rather than cash and items my rewards will be more like letters of recommendation, commissions, knightings and other things that increase prestidge in rp situations but make it no easier to kill a dragon. BTW if anyone is interested, I hope to go "live" in August. I am using Karameikos because of "In search of adventure" will likely be where many of the persistent dungeons come from, I run a thyatis game myself ....AND I AM NOT PROGRAMING DDA1, maybe run it in a session though. Sorry to talk more about NWN than Mystara, if anyone has questions about NWN email me privately but I think that a bunch of non-generic shops and shopkeepers for Mystara would be a great thing for the list, and cool items. You can buy Daro Blades in the import shop which are Keen Rapiers (I would never sell any true magic in a shop in my PnP game). -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Alex Benson Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 7:51 AM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] It's quiet... <> The sad thing is that that is true. I have my fighter venturing into Never Woods right now. Respawns and the resulting XP penalties are making her a gimp. I have been pleased with it so far. Unlike Dungeon Siege, there seems to be a degree of purpose in creature placement. Aribeth...I'd do her. She reminds me of a young Teri Weigle. Time to reroll and make my next one with max Charisma. LOL ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 07:16:33 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: It's quiet... >> > hops this is just a phase, since I'm about to get my copy on friday - and > OUCH, the missus will be off the whole weekend! (Actually it's her "stag" > night - I'm about to get a powerful magical ring of Eternal Bonding and > Servitude in a few weeks...) Gaaaaahhh! Don't do it, Ville! Run! It's too late for me, but save yourself!! Just kidding. :-) Congratulations, Ville, on your forthcoming status as "Ringbearer"! I've been carrying one since November 2000, and I'm still alive and (mostly) sane. Well, the sanity bit has been slipping away for some time now, so I don't think there's any connection there... ;-) << Well, I suppose I should say welcome to the club. I've had my ring since January of 94 and it's not as bad as Geoff makes out ;). It's a lot worse. Seriously though, congrats. Muhahaahaahaa... P.S. I don't know if you can own a copy of NWN and be married at the same time. I think I'm still married, but I can't be sure. I haven't seen my wife for a week and a half (since I got my copy in). P.P.S. You only really need about 3 hours worth of sleep a night. That's what I tell myself at 1 or 2 in the am (gotta get up at 5 to go to work). It doesn't seem to have affected me in a negative way. My judgement has in no way been impared. P.P.P.S. Tonight I'm going to try for 2 hours of sleep. -John ===== Rule #53. If the beautiful princess that I capture says "I'll never marry you! Never, do you hear me, NEVER!!!", I will say "Oh well" and kill her. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:11:47 -0700 From: michael bertolli Subject: PTK Meeting Dear Sigma Phi Members, Our next PTK General Meeting is scheduled for: THURSDAY, JUNE 11 5:00 PM ROOM M4750 ACC'[s President, Dr. Bert Glandon, will hopefully join us, so please make every effort to attend. Thanks! Michael Bertolli --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:52:30 -0400 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: PTK Meeting On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, michael bertolli wrote: > Dear Sigma Phi Members, > > Our next PTK General Meeting is scheduled for: > > THURSDAY, JUNE 11 > > 5:00 PM > > ROOM M4750 Someone sent this to the wrong list :D Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:14:44 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Modrigswerg la Volpe wrote: > > I was taking a look at the Vaults and noticed with > sadness at the lack of material regarding one of the > most interesting races of D&D and Fantasy in general: > DWARVES! Oh, that's an a much commendable enterprise, dear Captain! > 3) how can we reconcile the Modrigserg's exile with > the fact that dwarves come from the Northern Reaches > and that Kagyar gave them false memories and that in > HW Reference Book there is written that the dwarves > that remained in Vestland would eventually become the > Modrigswerg? Uhm, perhaps the HW book means that the Dwarves that became the Rockborn were taken from communities of (Kogolor-like) Dwarves in what would become Vestland, and were moved west to modern Rockhome, while those who remained were made into the Mordrigswerg. As for the other questions, my ideas are in my old files on the Dark Elves. They can be found at the Vaults, but I also did start building an homepage, though I never found the time to complete it. It's still in my web space, in its very incomplete status: http://digilander.libero.it/agathokles/Damocles/Timeline.htm Ciao, G.P. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:33:08 -0500 From: John Polacek Subject: Re: It's quiet... It's a nice day outside here in Chicago, but I'm staying in and working on creating B5:Horror on the Hill with the NWN toolset. At least I've got a window open! All in all, the toolset has a fairly steep learning curve if you want to do something more sophisticated that a dungeon crawl. Luckily, I'm not easily intimidated by having to learn things like scripting. Like most things, I'm sure its not as hard as it looks at first. There's a toolset tutorial at the Bioware site that is a definite "must read". Also, there are plenty of smart, nice people in the NWN community who are very helpful with teaching newbies like me how to get their module to work the way we want to. So far, I've only been laying out areas and haven't gotten into developing the "guts" of a module. I've been disappointed by the number of buildings, creature-types and placeable objects. However, there are a lot of talented modellers out there in the community, so I'm sure in the next couple of months we'll see much improvement in this regard. Fortunately, Bioware has tried to make it as easy as possible for the community to be able to add custom content to the game. The Realms of Mystara project that I'm involved in is going well, by the way. We've got a bunch of different areas and modules under development. Pretty soon, we'll be needing playtesters. I'll make an announcement when the time comes. - Ashlander (John) _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:10:59 EDT From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: PTK Meeting ACC??? Go Seminoles!!! I wonder how many will pick up on that unrelated to MML reference. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:33:43 -0300 From: Steven Carter Subject: Re: PTK Meeting And here I thought it was a notification for all us Sigma Phi secret society members to attend a Phlogiston Technomancy & Kabbalah meeting at the Alphatian Confederacy College. (Kabbalah on Mystara? Sure. Why not. Elves already know about the Tree of Life... sorta, and every wizard worth his salts has to have a golem.) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.373 / Virus Database: 208 - Release Date: 01/07/2002 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:50:23 +0200 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Modrigswerg la Volpe wrote: > I was thinking about writing an early history of > the race that could explain why dwarves were dying > out, the Modrigswerg's meddling with entropics and the > origin of dark elves and gnomes. I begun to do some > work on it when suddenly I was overwhelmed by the > number of things I should do to have it all > consistent. So I wanted to hear some comments on: As you may or may not have noted, I've started giving the Modrigswerg = treatment in the Mystaran Almanac, but I'm not going delving into their = troublesome history. > 1) what do you think of dark elves\ Oh no, I'm not going back there... > 2) should all Modrigswerg clans be isolated AND on bad > terms with Rockhome? I was thinking that maybe some > clans did some internal purging after they were > exiliated I think they should all hate Rockhome and at the same time be envious of = it. Sort of a racial hatred similar to the Shadowelf/Alfheim one. And I = think that the cause of that is, for the most part, the racial madness = inherent in all Modrigswerg. > 3) how can we reconcile the Modrigserg's exile with > the fact that dwarves come from the Northern Reaches > and that Kagyar gave them false memories and that in > HW Reference Book there is written that the dwarves > that remained in Vestland would eventually become the > Modrigswerg? I believe that the Modrigswerg have a false history, that they were = created as they are, with false memories of being exiled. Perhaps an = Entropic Immortal (Loki? Hel?) tampered with Kagyar's work? > 4) when did the Modrigswerg's exile take place? I'd place it at a few centuries before the dwarves were recreated, I = guess. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:35:27 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Consequences when the dwarves left in WOTI? la Volpe wrote: > > "Is there a common, connected Mystara's Underworld, > or is it just some caves underground in which some > people live?" > "Is there a way to go from the Rat City in Thyatis to > Rockhome? From Rockhome to the gnome caves used by the > cobolds in Vestland and Soderfjord? From the Orclands > to the City of the Stars?" There are at least the following facts that support a positive answer. 1) Some Dwarven explorers are able to enter the SE territory through unexplored tunnels in western Rockhome, as told in the SE Gaz. 2) Gnomes know certain tunnels under the Ylari desert that allow them to reach the Lost City of Cynidicea bypassing the desert itself. 3) Some elves were able in the past to travel underground from Glantri to not better identified southern regions, which were anyway very far from Glantri itself (perhaps the Five Shires). 4) The Five Shires themselves have been invaded by the Dwarves, yet there is no trace of large movements of troops in the surface nations that divide Rockhome from the Shires. 5) There are tunnels from the Known World underground down to the Hollow World, which is farther than any of the known cave complexes in the KW. All in all, the probability that an underground route from the Broken Lands (perhaps even Glantri) to Fabia or Port Shireton exist is high, while Thyatis and Karameikos underground locations _might_ not be linked to the major network. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:38:10 -0700 From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Consequences when the dwarves left in WOTI? On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:35:27 +0000, Agathokles wrote: > la Volpe wrote: >> >> "Is there a common, connected Mystara's Underworld, >> or is it just some caves underground in which some >> people live?" >> "Is there a way to go from the Rat City in Thyatis to >> Rockhome? From Rockhome to the gnome caves used by the >> cobolds in Vestland and Soderfjord? From the Orclands >> to the City of the Stars?" > > There are at least the following facts that support a positive answer. > 1) Some Dwarven explorers are able to enter the SE territory through > unexplored tunnels in western Rockhome, as told in the SE Gaz. > 2) Gnomes know certain tunnels under the Ylari desert that allow them to > reach the Lost City of Cynidicea bypassing the desert itself. > 3) Some elves were able in the past to travel underground from Glantri > to not better identified southern regions, which were anyway very far > from Glantri itself (perhaps the Five Shires). > 4) The Five Shires themselves have been invaded by the Dwarves, yet > there is no trace of large movements of troops in the surface nations > that divide Rockhome from the Shires. > 5) There are tunnels from the Known World underground down to the Hollow > World, which is farther than any of the known cave complexes in the KW. > > All in all, the probability that an underground route from the Broken > Lands (perhaps even Glantri) to Fabia or Port Shireton exist is high, > while Thyatis and Karameikos underground locations _might_ not be linked > to the major network. > -- > I agree, and I think there are more reasons than that. - The Shadowelves seem to know an awful lot about the surface world. That would seem possible only if they know of tunnels leading to most surface world nations. - The Wanderers must walk the deep places of the world until they die once they're cast out of shadowelven society. To do that there would have to be a lot of caves, or such customs would be silly. - Denwarf left Rockhome and went 'deep', yet he returned (IMC will return) in AC 1010 having wandered the darkness for (who long?)... well, a very long time! Nobody ever met him during this? Most be a pretty extensive tunnel system! - Shadowelves are only one subterranean species. Most of us seem to agree there are no mind flayers on Mystara, but that still leaves an awful lot of monsters crawling around, such as goblins, orcs, troglodytes, beholders, umber hulks, black dragons, etc... And some of these, such as the choker, are specific to Mystara (or were until 3e stole them, the bastards!). Where do they all live? They certainly don't live near the shadowelves (because they'll get their rears kicked and hard!), so there must be more subterranean societies of various species, and I'm probably forgetting many of the more important ones... In fact, IMC I was so convinced there that many tunnels that when the PCs went 'hunting' for the manscorpions during the Master's invasion of Darokin, they travelled beneath the earth for days, running into all sorts of monsters, including shadowelven guards, even though they had entered through a tunnel in Darokin. And yesterday they met umber hulks on a long, narrow stairway (heavy on the Lord of the Rings references here... complete with the 'gap in the stairs' bit) with a deep, dark abyss beneath them on either side. They ran into that shadowelf wanderer, and they were fleeing from troglodytes and orcs who had invaded lower Dengar during the absense of the dwarves (the dwarf in the group is on a quest to bring the dwarves back - orcs in Lower Dengar should 'motivate' the dwarves to agree, I thought...) One thing that struck me in the post by the illustrious Captain Scaevola is the question of whether the dwarves knew of the shadowelves. Is there any doubt? The surface worlders may not know much about the shadowelves, but I'd say they had certainly heard of them, probably along the lines of 'If you stay out at night when it's dark and don't go to bed, my little boy, the evil shadowelves will come and take you to their horrid homes deep beneath the earth!' That sort of thing. And the Alfheimers probably wouldn't correct such an impression... And the dwarves would likely know more than most because they work beneath the earth too... - The Stalker "Arise now, arise, Riders of Th=E9oden! Dire deeds awake, dark is it eastward. Let horse be bridled, horn be sounded! Forth Eorlingas!" ("The Two Towers", p.149) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:06:48 -0700 From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Modrigswerg On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:50:23 +0200, Jacob Skytte wrote: > la Volpe wrote: > > >> I was thinking about writing an early history of >> the race that could explain why dwarves were dying >> out, the Modrigswerg's meddling with entropics and the >> origin of dark elves and gnomes. I begun to do some >> work on it when suddenly I was overwhelmed by the >> number of things I should do to have it all >> consistent. So I wanted to hear some comments on: > > As you may or may not have noted, I've started giving the Modrigswerg treatment in the Mystaran Almanac, but I'm not going delving into their troublesome history. > I hadn't noticed. I'll have to take a look... >> 1) what do you think of dark elves\ > > Oh no, I'm not going back there... > Agreed! Like I agree with people who say there should be no mind flayers on Mystara, I'd agree there should be no dark elves. That is if I assume correctly that by dark elves you mean the drow we see in the Realms and Greyhawk. Then again, you could argue that the term is used in Gaz 7 which makes it canon. I would suggest then that we use the term 'dark elf' the same way it was used in Dragonlance where a 'dark elf' is simply an elven outcast, exiled from all elven society because of something they did. I think that's the only way the Mystara community would be able to accept the term, myself included. It may be that there was a period where the Alfheimers were too harsh in exiling elves, thereby creating a large number of such 'dark elves'. These could then have settled together and then become corrupted by some dark Immortal, probably Hel or Loki (since they are mentioned in Gaz 7). The elves then wouldn't talk about it because it is a dark period in their history, and most others would have forgotten by now... >> 2) should all Modrigswerg clans be isolated AND on bad >> terms with Rockhome? I was thinking that maybe some >> clans did some internal purging after they were >> exiliated > > I think they should all hate Rockhome and at the same time be envious of it. Sort of a racial hatred similar to the Shadowelf/Alfheim one. And I think that the cause of that is, for the most part, the racial madness inherent in all Modrigswerg. > Couldn't have said it better myself. The thing to avoid here is creating an all evil dwarven race. The shadowelves aren't 'all evil' though the Alfheimers certainly see them that way. Something similar would apply here. Some clans might be more benevolent than others, only to be more vulnerable to the Modrigswerg insanity. You could use the Malkavian clan from Vampire the Masquerade as inspiration for that, if you know that game (it's a clan of vampires who tend to go insane from time to time...) >> 3) how can we reconcile the Modrigserg's exile with >> the fact that dwarves come from the Northern Reaches >> and that Kagyar gave them false memories and that in >> HW Reference Book there is written that the dwarves >> that remained in Vestland would eventually become the >> Modrigswerg? > > I believe that the Modrigswerg have a false history, that they were created as they are, with false memories of being exiled. Perhaps an Entropic Immortal (Loki? Hel?) tampered with Kagyar's work? > Yeah, both of those would certainly be willing to do something like that. Atzanteotl might also be, I suppose... >> 4) when did the Modrigswerg's exile take place? > > I'd place it at a few centuries before the dwarves were recreated, I guess. > I think the reference you're looking for is on page 12 of the DM's Sourcebook in the HW boxed set. It says: "BC 1800: The dwarvish race on the Known World is slowly, inevitably dying out. The Immortal Kagyar the Artisan takes all remaining dwarves in the Known World. Half he transplants to the Hollow World, and half he reshapes into a new dwarven race. Now there are no remnants of the original dwarven race on the outer world. Some of the "new dwarves" are returned to the Northern Reaches, where the largest dwarf colonies had been, and eventually become the Modrigswerg clans; others are planeted in the Rockhome region. Both groups are given false memories and believe that the Modrigswerg dwarves originally lived in the Rockhome lands". - The Stalker "We meet again. At the turn of the tide. The great storm is coming, but the tide has turned." ("The Two Towers") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:23:59 -0700 From: The Stalker Subject: Re: PTK Meeting On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:33:43 -0300, Steven Carter wrote: > And here I thought it was a notification for all us Sigma Phi secret society > members to attend a Phlogiston Technomancy & Kabbalah meeting at the > Alphatian Confederacy College. > > (Kabbalah on Mystara? Sure. Why not. Elves already know about the Tree of > Life... sorta, and every wizard worth his salts has to have a golem.) > > Well, I don't have a golem. Why wouldn't I have? I would never use anything so crude...... ;) - The Stalker PS: Gosh, is this ever a silly thread! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:37:39 +1000 From: "Murphy, Jason" Subject: Re: It's quiet... -- By the way, just a few days ago I managed to play out the Nomad war until the week 14. I'll post the third month War Update some time soon. Darokin City sige was broken - but after a full month of battles. Casualties rose Ville Could you point me to where the previous months updates are? Cheers Jason This e-mail and any attachment is for authorised use by the intended recipient(s) only. It may contain proprietary material, confidential information and/or be subject to legal privilege. It should not be copied, disclosed to, retained or used by, any other party. If you are not an intended recipient then please promptly delete this e-mail and any attachment and all copies and inform the sender. Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:53:12 -0700 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Consequences when the dwarves left in WOTI? > - The Wanderers must walk the deep places of the > world until they die once > they're cast out of shadowelven society. To do that > there would have to be > a lot of caves, or such customs would be silly. Throw him in the bottomless pit.(the one and only) "Oh you'll walk the deep places till you die, you just won't walk for very long"(if at all) ;D (That silly enough?) > - Denwarf left Rockhome and went 'deep', yet he > returned (IMC will return) > in AC 1010 having wandered the darkness for (who > long?)... well, a very > long time! Nobody ever met him during this? Most be > a pretty extensive > tunnel system! The impresion I always got of these sort of cave systems was not that they were made or went anywhere but they tended to go around and down and up and around again. Thus walking the depths is just that. It's not that you are going anywhere really other then down. That said though I'm sure you could go places, just you'd need to find the way and survive somehow. One other thing of note, lets not forget the Weir in Alfheim which is constantly under gaurd and goes almost all the way to the sea. > - Shadowelves are only one subterranean species. The other one that comes to my mind is the race in X5 that goes by sound. Their cavern system is enormous, but doesn't go anywhere. Chris. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:26:44 -0400 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Consequences when the dwarves left in WOTI? From: "Agathokles" > > All in all, the probability that an underground route from the Broken > Lands (perhaps even Glantri) to Fabia or Port Shireton exist is high, > while Thyatis and Karameikos underground locations _might_ not be linked > to the major network. Then again, if we take the Orcwars game in Gaz 10 seriously, then the entire Known World region is connected by underground tunnels, although there is a serious chance of getting lost and killed if you go exploring too far.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 08:46:59 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Consequences when the dwarves left in WOTI? The Stalker wrote: > > > One thing that struck me in the post by the illustrious Captain Scaevola is > the question of whether the dwarves knew of the shadowelves. Is there any > doubt? According to the Gazetteer, the Dwarven explorers who get into the SE tunnels are captured and sent back, bribed so that they don't tell anybody else about the SE existance. However, I wouldn't think that any Dwarf would withold such information from his clan leaders for a simple bribe, though the SE may certainly believe the opposite. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 2 Jul 2002 to 3 Jul 2002 (#2002-170) **************************************************************