Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 14 Aug 2002 to 15 Aug 2002 (#2002-211) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 16/08/2002, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 39 messages totalling 3407 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Dragon scale armour (2) 2. The Bard Adventure II 3. The Bard Adventure III 4. The Bard Adventure IV 5. Enchanting Armour (27) 6. Using Illustrator for Maps 7. Languages? 8. The BEST combat system (2) 9. VS: The BEST combat system (2) 10. Alfheimer physical descriptions ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:52:26 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Re: Dragon scale armour On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Larry wrote: > gaining the same protections that a dragon gets i dont > alow that because the dragon dosent get its protection > from its armor alone, its the whole make up of the > dragon that gives its imunitey powers from. I totally agree with this, but still I think some characteristics of dragons could be conveyed by the scales. I too have used dragon scale as normal scale mail, but only if the scales are actually crafted to form a mail shirt (linked together etc.). I have also given such armour a +2 for saving throw against the dragon-specific breath (of course not gas!). In addition to this I have ruled that drgon scale mail is easier to enchant, meaning that no inherent enchantments need be cast while making the scales - they are already somewhat magical in nature. Thus the enchantment cost is a bit lower and perhaps the percentages a bit higher. Also, for example a red dragon scale mail is possible to fit with a "Resist Fire" spell, a daunting, even impossible, task to do with a normal scale. Making "a Dragon Scale mail +1/Resist Fire" would still be a difficult and expensive task, but the nature of the scales is still such that they are more susceptible to such enchantments. Ville ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:45:19 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: The Bard Adventure II PART ONE: The Weary Water-Diviner The tale of the Weary Water-Diviner is one of the eldest stories of Specularum. It stems from the time when instead of the city there was only the small village of Marilenev. The water-diviner was an old man who was extremely proud of his profession. In times of dought he made a promise to the farmers of the village, that he would find a good spot for a well outside the village. With an easy laugh he made a promise: "And I shall neither sleep or drink, until my divining-rod bends to show water." Perhaps the poor man kept seeking at the wrong places, or his old age had corroded his gift, but he could never find the promised well. The neighbours begged in vain for him to stop. After all, the farmers could always make the longer trip to the river. but the Water-Diviner wouldn't cease to seek. A whole week he wandered the fields near the village, until weariness, thirst and hunger took their toll. When his body was found, the villagers were astonished and horrified. It was withered and pale, and so dry that it wouldn't rot in the hot summer sun. Mere strength of will and duty had kept the bones moving even after death. The ghost of the Weary Water-Diviner has appeared to the people living on the poorer western outskirts of Specularum for some time, when the PCs learn of it. The residents of the area have trouble sleeping, and they are seeling an awakening, inexplicable fear in their hearts. Small concerns tend to focus into larger ones, and old sorrows come fresh to the mind. Some people have even decided to move elsewhere (see later). In the end a leader of the local community contacts the Church of Traladara. They require a priest to perform rituals of excorcism. Since in the earlier city-adventures the PCs have made contacts with the church, this is one good way to bring the PCs in. In this section of the adventure the PCs have little chance of changing the flow of events. Standard rituals of excorcism don't work. Information-divining spells and historical research can shed light on the ghost itself, but the cause remains hidden. The Water-Diviner cannot be harmed, except by strong magic. However it will always return the next day. After a few days or a week the ghost will disappear, but the mood it created will not go away. The Being has managed to create the first stretch of it's Channel of Sorrows. There is actually one way to banish the ghost, and if the PCs manage to find it early on, the effects of the Beign's passing will be diminished. If a spring of water is created under the divining-rod of the ghost, it will stop, smile, bend down for a drink - and disappear into the wind. The function of this part of the adventure is to give the PCs a chance to gather hints of the future. The stories of the Water-Diviner are almost forgotten, and the effects of the Being make people sullen and silent. The PCs will have to use their charisma and communication skills very well to gain information. Bribes of money are unlikely to work, helping the morose people in their grief is a better way (mending the shed, curing an ailness etc.) The best way to get information is to seek the people who moved away from the area. Most of them are older people, who remember enough of the old stories to understand to get away. Perhaps they saw the ghost as a portent of a coming drought, or their own death. The DM is encouraged to flesh out this section by songs, poems and folklore of his own. However, seeking the people who have moved isn't easy, since there aren't any Halls of Records, not all streets are named etc. One has to find friends and relations, dring cups and cups of herbal tee, and listen to incoherent ramblings of the elders for hours along. The Being itself will remain in the dark during this section, but the PCs might hear the Lament of the Bard that was given in the beginning of the adventure. Nobody remembers when they heard the song the first time, or if they even have heard it before, but it still seems strangely familiar. People of Specularum can recognise some elements of the city and its history in the song, but can't just put it into words. If the PCs seem too perplexed or frustrated, the DM can throw in a learned singer who can give them some tips. THE MADMAN is the human opponent of this section. He feels complusive need to follow the Water-Diviner around and defend it. Despite his rugged appearance he is a good speaker and has managed to rally around him a few street urchins, vagabonds and drunkards. They are a constant pain in the but for any investigator: they can give false information, pickpocket the PCs, and even attack them in the alleys. Defeating the madman isn't a hard task, but it might divert the PCs to a sidetrack for some time. He has nothing to do with the Water-Diviner or the Being. Between this section and the next there will be a small pause, when the bard seeks a new archetype to animate. If the PCs are roaming the city, they may catch a glimpse of it/him. The bard travels towards the inner city from the "spring" that the Water-Diviner found. At this stage the bard resembles a shadow, which wavers in the edge of the senses. Silent, sad music may be heard. Still, nothing of greater significance takes place before the next section. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 02:11:20 -0700 From: Larry Subject: Re: Dragon scale armour > Also, for example a red dragon scale mail is > possible to fit with a > "Resist Fire" spell, a daunting, even impossible, > task to do with a normal > scale. Making "a Dragon Scale mail +1/Resist Fire" Well, then i think it would follow the same rules as a ring of fire restiance....save for no damage, fail the save take 1/2 damage or something like that. ===== "May Tyr be with us all and protect us all from the Wolfs Hook" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Happy Hunting!" My web site: http://www.geocities.com/boonedale/ My Robotech game on Yahoo! groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RobotechGame/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:26:24 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: The Bard Adventure III PART TWO: The Elder Guardians At the time when the inner city walls were built, an irrigation channel stretched from the Mirror Bay to the nortwestern fields. The channel was important to the farmers of the area, since they had never found enough wells. (For a reason long forgotten, they called this dilemma "the Water-Diviner's Curse". During the droughts the channel would become vital. A bridge was built over the channel, and a city guard house by it. At that time the channel separated the residential areas or the poor and the noble folk, so the bridge was well-guarded. During an exceptionally dry year the poor people of the city rushed en masse to gather water from the channel, which would eventually threaten the water supply of the farmers. Famine was looming on the horizon. In the "Night of the streaming blood" the bridge guard had to turn its weapons against their own sisters and brothers, when a mob of desperate people tried to "steal" water or loot the houses of the nobles. The guards killed dozens and dozens. Torn by the memoires of this deed, these ten guardsmen jumped to the channel, with boulders tied to their necks. The crop of the farmers was saved, there was famine, but the bitterness of the bloody night remained. Nobody remembered the guardsmen with gratitude. The channel bridge and its guards appears in the middle of the marketplace during the rush hour. Ten ghostly men, donned in ancient armour and wielding halberds, stand on the bridge. A piece of rope is hanging from their necks, and they are crying bitterly. Even though the channel itself has been filled long ago, after good wells were found, the ground where the channel used to go gets a grimson hue. The people who are nearest to the ghostly image can hear the sound of running water and screams of anguish. As is to be expected, the marketplace is soon empty, as people flee the ghosts. The Guild of Merchants is horrified, and Stephan takes notice too, since the ghosts are pretty near his palace. The effects of the ghosts are similar to the ones caused by the Water-Diviner, but they also bring memoires of the close ones who died violent deaths to the surface. Those memories lack totally the peace of mind that time has brought - it is if as they happened before. The DM should note that this effect of the Being will also touch the PCs, who are bound to have friends who died violently. As far as the purposes of the Being are concerned, the Bard has chosen an excellent spot. A lot of people live and move around the marketplace, so there is a lot of grief to be devoured. In addition to the PCs there are other parties who try to intervene: the city guard attacks the ghosts with no effect whatsoever. The guard then pressures Stephan to use the Elvenguard, which will be as futile. Many people start saying that the Mage's Guild should help, but the guild will offer mainly help in knowledge of history and divining magic. Teldon is convinced that direct attacks would be useless. However, if the PCs have gained contacts in the guild, for example in the adventure "Omens and Portents", they can rally aid for attacks on the guards. But even the most powerful magical assaults can drive the ghosts away for one day only. Nothing seems to effect the image of the bridge. Purification spells may remove the hue of grimson from the ground, but in any case after a few days it will be replaced by a ghostly image of gray running water. One thing the PCs could do is to give aid for the people who have been touched by the Being's power. Decreasing fear and anguish will diminish the damage in the future, if they fail to stop the Gray Stream of Grief. It will be much easier this time to find explanations to the ghostly image from historical lore. If the PCs are persistent enough, they might even find the link to the Weary Water-Diviner. By discussing with the affected people they can find out the thematic connection with the ghosts and the feelings aroused by them: loss of close ones, remorse, even suicidal tendencies. But more important is that the Bard is starting to gain sentience. During the days when the bridge and the guards appear, the bard can be seen prowling the nearby streets, singing at the edges of senses. Slowly it gains its full manifestation: its face resembles both Traladarans and Thyatians, maybe halfbreed the most. Its clothing switches between Thyatian and Traladaran also, being old-fashioned all the time. Its "body" is constantly wavering as if on the edges of existence, and people near it can hear music, which seems to be a blend of the traditional elements of both people (any bard can tell this). No more hidden songs are revealed, as the bard starts singing its songs directly to the people. The following song is a direct hint to the PCs, to whom the Bard appears, pleading symbolically for help. Seldom does the stream run, the gray one without rapids on its way To its torrents many drown, although none touch its water any day Even wise ones may overlook the flood however it may warn thee Who would have known the danger stood where river sought to be - at last - free But in vain shall men seek the cause of the danger, the sorrow thief, if ignorant they be to the dreary course of the Gray Stream of Grief At this stage the PCs should have been in contact with the Bard and its ghosts many times, and so also connected to the power of the Being. One night they will have a dream in which the essence of the Being manifests itself to them. It would be best if the DM explained the dream to each player separately, perhaps during the break between gaming sessions. In the dream the PCs have a choice, which should pretty much show that it is not a regular dream. The choices made will not affect reality directly, but they will determine how the Bard will relate to each of the PCs in the future. THE DREAM: The dreamer is standing in the middle of fields spotted by farmhouses and wheatfields. Behind him (or her) a mumble of thousands of voices may be heard, but the dreamer is unable to turn and look. He can sense the stare of thousands of eyes from behind. In front of the dreamer appears suddenly an empty channel, and under his feet a dam. Now it is possible to look back, where a gray stream is splashing against the dam. The dreamer can sense the unending thirst and hunger of the stream, but doesn't know what it lusts after. He feels utterly sad. Then on either side of the channel he can see thousands of souls - even though he doesn't know how he has recognised them as souls - and can share in their joys, sorrows and countless other feelings. But by the edges of the channel there is only sadness and sorrow. The sorrow of the souls and the hunger of the gray stream tear at the dreamer, to different directions. Suddenly the dreamer notices that he is holding the lever for the dam gates. The dreamer gets to decide whether to open up the dam gates or not. The dream ends in the decision, without no hint of the end result. In the future the Bard refuses to communicate with those who opened the gate. Also it is harder for them to perceive the manifestation of the Bard. If it happens so that all PCs elect to open the Channel of Sorrows for the Being, voe the PCs. They are on their own, and the bard has failed to help them. It is likely that they can only alleviate the suffering caused by the Being, unless they are extremely lucky. THE CULT is the human opponent in this section. Its leader is a former priest of the Church of Traladara, who renounced his faith to study forbidden lore. His closest follower is a mage who was cast out of the Guild (what if it is Kiril from the last Specularum adventure?). All followers of the cult are insane in various ways, and the cultist master controls them by using the power of the Being. Ironically he taps into the power by channeling it through the minds of the cultists and focusing it into a statue that depicts the Bard. The statue was carved out of the old foundation stone of the channel bridge - the one that has now appeared into the marketplace. The cultist master dug out the statue one night with the help of his mage follower. The object of the cult master is to stop the flow of the Gray Stream of Grief and make the statue into kind of a valve, one which he can control. To get into this goal he is gathering people who are anguished by the Being as his followers. The leaders of the cult have no deep knowledge of the Being or the role of the Bard, but their notes can give some good clues (this is again up to the DM). The cult sees the PCs as a direct threat and will surely try to eliminate them. The Wavering Bard could destroy the power of the statue, but first the cultists must be gotten out of the way. See, the Bard is also afraid of the statue. By using it the cult master could even destory its emerging sentience and personality. Also, the bard would be a great source of power for the cult master, who will try to capture it into the statue. If the PCs fail to stop the cult, the danger to the city might in the end be greater than the one posed by the Being. If the cult controls the Being, it can cause madness and hopelessness at will. The PCs will no doubt need all of their friends in the city to crack this one. The next stage of the adventure takes place fairly soon. After four nights and days the bridge guards will disappear, but the wavering image of the bridge remains. The only possibility is to dig up the second foundation stone of the bridge (two pillars, one stone for each), bless it and bury it in sanctified ground. However, the ground in the area or the old channel will remain gray, and the anguish remains in the people near the market. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:23:05 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: The Bard Adventure IV PART FOUR: The Knight of Griffon The Knight of Griffon refers to the more recent history of the city, a hero of the early days of the Thyatian occupation. After the Thyatians arrived, a lot of their troops were tied up in smothering small rebellions all over the country. Brigands and bandits were a constant threat, so many troops were sent to guard the few roads. So Marilenev/Specularum itself was left pretty defenceless. It didn't take long for river brigands to start harrassing the people living on the beaches of Mirror Bay. The untrained militia had no chances against their swords and arrows. Several nasty battles took place before the brigands were driven away. The hero was one lone Knight of the Griffon, who belonged to the churchly orders of Thyatians (a predecessor of the Karameikan Order of Griffon). He was the only one of his order to come and aid the Traladarans under siege, and under his leadership the brigands were beaten. The final battle took his life. The fishermen carried his body to a secret grave that has remained hidden to this day. It is told that the leader of the fishermen told the head of the order: "He was the only one of you who had heart and honor. He shall watch over us even after his sun has set." The ghost of the Knight symbolises the final battle, the final opportunity of the PCs to stop the Gray Stream of Grief from surging to the Channel of Sorrows that the Bard has prepared. It is more than likely that the Bard has chosen this memory consciously. The Knight manifests as a restless ghost who walks on the beaches of the Mirror Bay. Again and again he stops to scream voiceless orders to invisible troops, sharpen the blade of his sword and peer into the horizon. This ghostly image arises feelings of pure terror and loss of the sense of security. The above mentioned events are well known by the people of the harbour, so it is easy to gather information of them. This time the both churches take an active interest in the events, and of course the Order itself is alerted. The human opposition in this stage is the tension and competition between the churches, when conflicts of interest take precedence over the suffering of the people. The churches are more interested in debating who gets to try its rituals to solve the situation than alleviating suffering. As always, rituals are inefficient against the ghost - unless someone suggests a common ritual by the two churches. Since the Being is nourishin itself from the traditions of both people, it will take the efforts of both to stop it. But this is of course too abstract a solution to figure out, especially without any clues. The Bard tries to offer another solution. This time the Bard takes a direct contact with the PCs. Its personality has grown to full maturity, and it can actually converse with them. Its language is old-fashioned, and it resorts to metaphoric speech all the time. The DM should prepare these conversations very carefully, as such an epic figure shouldn't stumble in its words. The Bard is powerless to stop the influence of the Being in the area of the Channel of Sorrows, but it can fill in the gaps in the knowledge of the PCs. It has only a vague idea of the being, the Grey Stream of Grief is the clearest metaphor it can use. However, it knows that two things must be done to stop it: First, to stop the spreading of horror in the harbour area. Second, close the Spring of Sorrow that the Water-Diviner opened. The solution to the first puzzle is in the fishermen's community. The embalmed body of the Knight lies under the floor stones of the Mirror Bay Lighthouse. In order for the soul of the knight to get rest, the body must be buried in the ground blessed by the priests of his Order. The Bard can give hints about the body, but the final clues can be given only by the oldest fishermen, whose fathers passed on this knowledge. But merely removing the ghost of the knight doesn't suffice in stopping the Being, the sense of security must be returned to the people of the area. The Bard knows this, but it cannot sing happy songs. The PCs should have an interesting time convincing barroom bards to sing happy ballads to the morose fishermen. EPILOGUE What remains to be done is to close the Gray Stream. The solutions given here are just possibilites, the DM is encouraged to use her/his own ideas. One possibility is to empty the area where the Water-Diviner walked of people for a while, but it is doubtful if the PCs are up to this. In principle a happy festival in the same area would do it too. The basic idea is that the Being is cut off from its source of nourishment. The Bard, whom the Being gave life, suggest one other point of view: do we have the right to kill the Being of thirst? The Bard doesn't want any harm to befall on the citizens, but it is still grateful to the Being. If there is a solution, the Bard would like to spare its creator. A beautiful solution would be to open up a cemetery at the otskirts of the city. There the Being could devour sorrow in small quantities, and perhaps the images it would create would make the passing of close ones less bitter. There's just the problem that the first good plague would feed it too much. A grim solution could be inspired by the cult. By gathering a "caravan" or insanely depressed people thay could lure the Being away from the city. The Bard could help in building this new Channel. Thus the Being could erupt harmlessly towards a new fate, away from Specularum. This all would be done at the expense of any hope for the insane people. If the Being is driven off, starved to death or contained, what shall happen to the bard? It will disappear back into the collective uncosciousness of the people of Specularum, leaving behing fainting images of possible unification and community. Even years after this the PCs may yet hear someone on the street singing a familiar song, or they may find themself humming a familiar tune. Did someone catch a glimpse of something in the shadows of the tavern, where the bards use to play? Something wavering and sad perhaps. Sleep tight, and don't brood over you sorrows too much, lest they grow into something larger than life... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 08:58:44 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Enchanting Armour On a related note, what would you guys say would be required to enchant armour to a simple +1 (I don't have the RC handy right now)? And Ville, what would you say the bonus for dragon scale armour would be, enchantment-wise? +5% chance for successful enchantment? Something else? This is all very helpful! :) Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:51:45 -0300 From: "Jonathan L." Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour I don't know if you already had this conversation, but I think that the d&d rules for armors, in high levels, don't seems to work very well. I mean that when you are in first levels you miss a lot. But when you're an advanced level player you hit a lot. A 10 level warrior with a +2 sword can hit a 36 warrior that isn't wearing any armor. Don't you think so? Jonathan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Gander" To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 9:58 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > On a related note, what would you guys say would be required to enchant > armour to a simple +1 (I don't have the RC handy right now)? And Ville, > what would you say the bonus for dragon scale armour would be, > enchantment-wise? +5% chance for successful enchantment? Something else? > > This is all very helpful! :) > > Geoff > > -- > Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 > Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer > Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy > au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:20:07 -0700 From: Larry Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour Well, from a first edition stand point, you cast "enchant an item" and then "Enchanted Weapon" (cast as many times as you want the weapon to have plusses to hit/damage) followed with "Permancy". The same is true for 2end edition. For armor its the same thing but the "Enchanted Weapon" can be a "Enchanted Armor" spell. --- Geoff Gander wrote: > On a related note, what would you guys say would be > required to enchant > armour to a simple +1 (I don't have the RC handy > right now)? And Ville, > what would you say the bonus for dragon scale armour > would be, > enchantment-wise? +5% chance for successful > enchantment? Something else? > > This is all very helpful! :) > > Geoff > > -- > Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 > Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer > Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy > au998@freenet.carleton.ca : > www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ===== "May Tyr be with us all and protect us all from the Wolfs Hook" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Happy Hunting!" My web site: http://www.geocities.com/boonedale/ My Robotech game on Yahoo! groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RobotechGame/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:36:03 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour > I mean that when you are in first levels you miss a > lot. But when you're an > advanced level player you hit a lot. A 10 level > warrior with a +2 sword can > hit a 36 warrior that isn't wearing any armor. > > Don't you think so? Yes, it's a major problem in the rules, I think. I mean, when you're a 10th level fighter you hit nearly anything, and if you have AC worse than 0 all monsters with more than 5 HD are likely to hit you nearly anytime...I think that's why there are so many hit points for the characters and monsters. I suppose that hit points account not only for the real damage you can take, but for the ability in combat...of 100 hit points, a human cannot have more than 20 "physical" hit points, the rest is their ability to parry, dodge, etc. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:57:47 -0300 From: "Jonathan L." Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour For that reason I added "Armor Category Bonus". As you get more experienced (by passing levels), your THAC0 gets better and your abillity in fighting (and defending yourself from the attacks of your enemies). This is the ACB. So when your THAC0 advance, your ACB advance. ¿what do you think? Jonathan ----- Original Message ----- From: "la Volpe" To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > I mean that when you are in first levels you miss a > > lot. But when you're an > > advanced level player you hit a lot. A 10 level > > warrior with a +2 sword can > > hit a 36 warrior that isn't wearing any armor. > > > > Don't you think so? > > Yes, it's a major problem in the rules, I think. > I mean, when you're a 10th level fighter you hit > nearly anything, and if you have AC worse than 0 all > monsters with more than 5 HD are likely to hit you > nearly anytime...I think that's why there are so many > hit points for the characters and monsters. I suppose > that hit points account not only for the real damage > you can take, but for the ability in combat...of 100 > hit points, a human cannot have more than 20 > "physical" hit points, the rest is their ability to > parry, dodge, etc. > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Captain of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali > http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:32:52 -0700 From: Brendan Corliss Subject: Re: Using Illustrator for Maps As far as using a vector-based-graphics program for making maps, you're best bet is Campaign Cartographer 2. It's essentially a customized version of EasyCAD and it is very user-friendly. There are lots of add-ons that give you additional features and graphics. You can check it all out at: http://www.profantasy.com --- Darth Darknerd wrote: > Does anyone use Illustrator? I find is hard to use > because the tools for creating objects is really > difficult. I cannot create triangles or simple > lines. > There's no widget for this. > > My idea, as an experiement is to create the map that > was presented in the Expert Boxed Set. > > Though, using Illustrator for this is difficult. > The > idea is to output this in multiple formats, besides > just GIF. In SVG, you can zoom in and out, and with > SWF, one can make animated map menuing systems using > Flash. > > - Joaquin > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs > http://www.hotjobs.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ===== May all your endeavors be Gold! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:33:20 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour So high level mages can dodge, parry, etc.? I used the alternate armor system suggested in Dawn of Empires, armor reduces the damage you take from blows not your chance to hit. Here is the basis of the system: You hit. You roll for damage. The first point of damage always goes in. If the target's AC is due to armor, subtract the AC from 9 and that is the reduction of the remaining damage. For example, chain mail reduces the remaining damage by 4. Against basic skill fighters this means on average someone in chain mail will take only a point of damage each time they are hit. Plate reduces the damage by 7. So does a small white dragon(!) George ----- Original Message ----- From: "la Volpe" To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > I mean that when you are in first levels you miss a > > lot. But when you're an > > advanced level player you hit a lot. A 10 level > > warrior with a +2 sword can > > hit a 36 warrior that isn't wearing any armor. > > > > Don't you think so? > > Yes, it's a major problem in the rules, I think. > I mean, when you're a 10th level fighter you hit > nearly anything, and if you have AC worse than 0 all > monsters with more than 5 HD are likely to hit you > nearly anytime...I think that's why there are so many > hit points for the characters and monsters. I suppose > that hit points account not only for the real damage > you can take, but for the ability in combat...of 100 > hit points, a human cannot have more than 20 > "physical" hit points, the rest is their ability to > parry, dodge, etc. > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Captain of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali > http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:06:09 -0300 From: "Jonathan L." Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour This is a possiblity. The main problem here is that D&D resolve the attacks using AC. But AC in D&D is a number that represent habillity, dodge and armor. If you use the system suggested in Dawn of Empires, you shouldn't use the AC to reduce the changes to be hitten by enemy. Just to reduce the hit point of tha damage. You should have something like dodge... Jonathan ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Hrabovsky" To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > So high level mages can dodge, parry, etc.? > > I used the alternate armor system suggested in Dawn of Empires, armor > reduces the damage you take from blows not your chance to hit. > > Here is the basis of the system: > > You hit. > You roll for damage. > The first point of damage always goes in. > If the target's AC is due to armor, subtract the AC from 9 and that is the > reduction of the remaining damage. For example, chain mail reduces the > remaining damage by 4. Against basic skill fighters this means on average > someone in chain mail will take only a point of damage each time they are > hit. Plate reduces the damage by 7. So does a small white dragon(!) > > George > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "la Volpe" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:36 AM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > > > > I mean that when you are in first levels you miss a > > > lot. But when you're an > > > advanced level player you hit a lot. A 10 level > > > warrior with a +2 sword can > > > hit a 36 warrior that isn't wearing any armor. > > > > > > Don't you think so? > > > > Yes, it's a major problem in the rules, I think. > > I mean, when you're a 10th level fighter you hit > > nearly anything, and if you have AC worse than 0 all > > monsters with more than 5 HD are likely to hit you > > nearly anytime...I think that's why there are so many > > hit points for the characters and monsters. I suppose > > that hit points account not only for the real damage > > you can take, but for the ability in combat...of 100 > > hit points, a human cannot have more than 20 > > "physical" hit points, the rest is their ability to > > parry, dodge, etc. > > > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > > Captain of the XXth Cohort > > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali > > http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:12:12 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour In DoE it's called Armor Value (AV). AC still determines your hit chance. You take your THAC0 and add the AC of the target. That's your base chance to hit. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan L." To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:06 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > This is a possiblity. > The main problem here is that D&D resolve the attacks using AC. > But AC in D&D is a number that represent habillity, dodge and armor. > If you use the system suggested in Dawn of Empires, you shouldn't use the AC > to reduce the changes to be hitten by enemy. Just to reduce the hit point of > tha damage. > > You should have something like dodge... > > Jonathan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "George Hrabovsky" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 1:33 PM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > > > So high level mages can dodge, parry, etc.? > > > > I used the alternate armor system suggested in Dawn of Empires, armor > > reduces the damage you take from blows not your chance to hit. > > > > Here is the basis of the system: > > > > You hit. > > You roll for damage. > > The first point of damage always goes in. > > If the target's AC is due to armor, subtract the AC from 9 and that is the > > reduction of the remaining damage. For example, chain mail reduces the > > remaining damage by 4. Against basic skill fighters this means on average > > someone in chain mail will take only a point of damage each time they are > > hit. Plate reduces the damage by 7. So does a small white dragon(!) > > > > George > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "la Volpe" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:36 AM > > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > > > > > > > I mean that when you are in first levels you miss a > > > > lot. But when you're an > > > > advanced level player you hit a lot. A 10 level > > > > warrior with a +2 sword can > > > > hit a 36 warrior that isn't wearing any armor. > > > > > > > > Don't you think so? > > > > > > Yes, it's a major problem in the rules, I think. > > > I mean, when you're a 10th level fighter you hit > > > nearly anything, and if you have AC worse than 0 all > > > monsters with more than 5 HD are likely to hit you > > > nearly anytime...I think that's why there are so many > > > hit points for the characters and monsters. I suppose > > > that hit points account not only for the real damage > > > you can take, but for the ability in combat...of 100 > > > hit points, a human cannot have more than 20 > > > "physical" hit points, the rest is their ability to > > > parry, dodge, etc. > > > > > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > > > Captain of the XXth Cohort > > > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali > > > http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:15:30 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour Whoops, that's subtract AC from THAC0, not add. Say you THAC0 is 15, you go to hit a normal person and need to roll a 6 or better. However, at night (-1), with a high Dex (16, -2), in slippery conditions (-1) with the opponent being able to reduce AC by 2 due to weapon mastery (not including the possibility of a deflect) the chance goes to 13. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan L." To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:06 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > This is a possiblity. > The main problem here is that D&D resolve the attacks using AC. > But AC in D&D is a number that represent habillity, dodge and armor. > If you use the system suggested in Dawn of Empires, you shouldn't use the AC > to reduce the changes to be hitten by enemy. Just to reduce the hit point of > tha damage. > > You should have something like dodge... > > Jonathan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "George Hrabovsky" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 1:33 PM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > > > So high level mages can dodge, parry, etc.? > > > > I used the alternate armor system suggested in Dawn of Empires, armor > > reduces the damage you take from blows not your chance to hit. > > > > Here is the basis of the system: > > > > You hit. > > You roll for damage. > > The first point of damage always goes in. > > If the target's AC is due to armor, subtract the AC from 9 and that is the > > reduction of the remaining damage. For example, chain mail reduces the > > remaining damage by 4. Against basic skill fighters this means on average > > someone in chain mail will take only a point of damage each time they are > > hit. Plate reduces the damage by 7. So does a small white dragon(!) > > > > George > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "la Volpe" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:36 AM > > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > > > > > > > I mean that when you are in first levels you miss a > > > > lot. But when you're an > > > > advanced level player you hit a lot. A 10 level > > > > warrior with a +2 sword can > > > > hit a 36 warrior that isn't wearing any armor. > > > > > > > > Don't you think so? > > > > > > Yes, it's a major problem in the rules, I think. > > > I mean, when you're a 10th level fighter you hit > > > nearly anything, and if you have AC worse than 0 all > > > monsters with more than 5 HD are likely to hit you > > > nearly anytime...I think that's why there are so many > > > hit points for the characters and monsters. I suppose > > > that hit points account not only for the real damage > > > you can take, but for the ability in combat...of 100 > > > hit points, a human cannot have more than 20 > > > "physical" hit points, the rest is their ability to > > > parry, dodge, etc. > > > > > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > > > Captain of the XXth Cohort > > > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali > > > http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:39:29 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour --- "Jonathan L." ha scritto: > For that reason I added "Armor Category Bonus". > > As you get more experienced (by passing levels), > your THAC0 gets better and > your abillity in fighting (and defending yourself > from the attacks of your > enemies). This is the ACB. > So when your THAC0 advance, your ACB advance. > > ¿what do you think? > Uhm, it doesn't seem to be a bad idea... Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:42:17 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour --- George Hrabovsky ha scritto: > So high level mages can dodge, parry, etc.? Why not? They learn, after all, although they do it with a pace much slower than that of others. Remember that in 2E they never reach a thaco better than 13... Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:56:21 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour What? Mages can learn to defend themselves without training? Let's apply a little Reductio Ad Absurdum to this: A 9th level mage maxed hp at every level = 36 hp and THAC0 17. So, without any martial training a mage is the equivalent in combat ability of a level 4-5 fighter. I think this is absurd. A level 10 fighter certainly does not gain the abilities of a level 4-5 mage, why should this be the other way around. (Of course, I think the hit point system is silly to begin with.) By the way, I am not intending to start a flame war with this. I simply am voicing my opinion. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "la Volpe" To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > --- George Hrabovsky ha scritto: > > So high level mages can dodge, parry, etc.? > > Why not? They learn, after all, although they do it > with a pace much slower than that of others. Remember > that in 2E they never reach a thaco better than 13... > > Iulius Sergius Scaevola > Captain of the XXth Cohort > Port Lucinius, Thyatis > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali > http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:15:28 +0200 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour George Hrabovsky wrote: > What? Mages can learn to defend themselves without training? Let's = apply a > little Reductio Ad Absurdum to this: > =20 > A 9th level mage maxed hp at every level =3D 36 hp and THAC0 17. > =20 > So, without any martial training a mage is the equivalent in combat = ability > of a level 4-5 fighter. I think this is absurd. A level 10 fighter = certainly > does not gain the abilities of a level 4-5 mage, why should this be = the > other way around. (Of course, I think the hit point system is silly to = begin > with.) > =20 > By the way, I am not intending to start a flame war with this. I = simply am > voicing my opinion. Well, what did that 9th level mage do while earning his experience? Was = he an adventurer, who had to fend off monster attacks to stay alive? Ok, so I agree that it's absurd, but then the D&D system in general is = pretty absurd, no matter which rule you pick for discussion. ;) IMO, of = course. Never stopped me from enjoying playing it, though. Well, except = when people started discussing the absurdity of the rules in the middle = of a game... Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:32:43 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour The guy spends the majority of his life in study of books and such to become an expert fighter? Hmmm. :-) George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jacob Skytte" To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour George Hrabovsky wrote: > What? Mages can learn to defend themselves without training? Let's apply a > little Reductio Ad Absurdum to this: > > A 9th level mage maxed hp at every level = 36 hp and THAC0 17. > > So, without any martial training a mage is the equivalent in combat ability > of a level 4-5 fighter. I think this is absurd. A level 10 fighter certainly > does not gain the abilities of a level 4-5 mage, why should this be the > other way around. (Of course, I think the hit point system is silly to begin > with.) > > By the way, I am not intending to start a flame war with this. I simply am > voicing my opinion. Well, what did that 9th level mage do while earning his experience? Was he an adventurer, who had to fend off monster attacks to stay alive? Ok, so I agree that it's absurd, but then the D&D system in general is pretty absurd, no matter which rule you pick for discussion. ;) IMO, of course. Never stopped me from enjoying playing it, though. Well, except when people started discussing the absurdity of the rules in the middle of a game... Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:39:51 +1200 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour > Here is the basis of the system: > > You hit. You roll for damage. The first point of damage always goes in. > If the target's AC is due to armor, subtract the AC from 9 and that is > the reduction of the remaining damage. For example, chain mail reduces the > remaining damage by 4. Against basic skill fighters this means on > average someone in chain mail will take only a point of damage each time they > are hit. Plate reduces the damage by 7. So does a small white dragon(!) The more I think about this the more I like it. Armour saves you (as it should) a lot of the time. What this system would mean is that even if you can hit them through all their armour, you won't do as much damage to them as if you would an unarmoured person, because the blow is slowed substantially by metal armour. In chain those 1st level fighters become much tougher, in plate you would actually have to wack them around a lot. That said high level characters will still make mince meat of them and as the rule works both ways will die less. Also it is a good reason to use more powerful weapons. I mean useing a hand axe against plate without a strength bonus is going to do little dammage as it might get them once or twice but it is unlikly to do any serious damage. But useing a 2 handed sword (as you would against plate in RL) will do some actual damage. The same is true for heavy crossbows etc. If you play natural 20's are double damage it makes them more immportant as they should be. It also makes tough monsters like dragons in OD&D much more difficult to kill. It means you might shoot a balastia at them rather then a hail of arrows. The is but one rule I might add to it and that is that "if part of the opponent is unarmoured you can make a called shot(at penalty to hit) to avoid the damage reduction due to armour" With this you could aim for ones legs if they were only wearing a chain shirt, and high level characters are more likely to do this because of their chance to hit thus giving their substantial advantage back to them so they can still fight gloriously, while makeing weaknesses more important. (archilies heal, smaug's chest, more cleaving of necks and heads etc) Hope this all made sence. Chris. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:01:56 +1200 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour > A 9th level mage maxed hp at every level = 36 hp and THAC0 17. > > So, without any martial training a mage is the equivalent in combat > ability > of a level 4-5 fighter. I think this is absurd. A level 10 fighter > certainly > does not gain the abilities of a level 4-5 mage, That said a theif can read scrolls at 10th level :p Or could become a paladin etc. But seriously, a mages hit points don't mean much as he has no armour so he'll always be getting hit. a mage will most likely became more agile with learning more spells and experience in danger. As for the THACO I can't really comment ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:09:04 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour When I ran D&D some years ago I had a whole system devised for this that incorporated the Weapon Mastery system, the new armor system, and a new to hit system: To hit as normal. A roll of natural 18 means you do max damage (assuming a hit). A roll of natural 19 you do max damage ignoring armor (if you would have hit anyway). A roll of natural 20 is max double damage. If a single hit brought you down by half hit point this resulted in a critical hit, and a table would be consulted (temporary stat decreases, skill roll penalties, and similar effects). If a single hit brought you down by 3/4 then there was a special crit table (very ugly). All of these systems made fighters GROSS! Mages had their spells, clerics had their ability to call upon divine intervention and miracles, all but the fighter had their specials. This gives fighters their due. I can't tell you how many times fights would go on for a long time waiting for someone to fail a deflect (nothing like three fighters going up against a high level master with the sword with 3 deflects and no one landing a blow). George George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Furneaux" To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > Here is the basis of the system: > > > > You hit. You roll for damage. The first point of damage always goes in. > > If the target's AC is due to armor, subtract the AC from 9 and that is > > the reduction of the remaining damage. For example, chain mail reduces the > > remaining damage by 4. Against basic skill fighters this means on > > average someone in chain mail will take only a point of damage each time they > > are hit. Plate reduces the damage by 7. So does a small white dragon(!) > > The more I think about this the more I like it. Armour saves you (as it should) > a lot of the time. What this system would mean is that even if you can hit them > through all their armour, you won't do as much damage to them as if you would > an unarmoured person, because the blow is slowed substantially by metal armour. > > In chain those 1st level fighters become much tougher, in plate you would > actually have to wack them around a lot. That said high level characters will > still make mince meat of them and as the rule works both ways will die less. > > Also it is a good reason to use more powerful weapons. I mean useing a hand axe > against plate without a strength bonus is going to do little dammage as it > might get them once or twice but it is unlikly to do any serious damage. But > useing a 2 handed sword (as you would against plate in RL) will do some actual > damage. The same is true for heavy crossbows etc. If you play natural 20's are > double damage it makes them more immportant as they should be. > > It also makes tough monsters like dragons in OD&D much more difficult to kill. > It means you might shoot a balastia at them rather then a hail of arrows. > > The is but one rule I might add to it and that is that "if part of the opponent > is unarmoured you can make a called shot(at penalty to hit) to avoid the damage > reduction due to armour" > > With this you could aim for ones legs if they were only wearing a chain shirt, > and high level characters are more likely to do this because of their chance to > hit thus giving their substantial advantage back to them so they can still > fight gloriously, while makeing weaknesses more important. (archilies heal, > smaug's chest, more cleaving of necks and heads etc) > > Hope this all made sence. > > Chris. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:34:33 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour Of course, using the alternate rule system from DoE you don't need to justify anything (other than hit points, and, well, that just can't be easily fixed, can it...) Fighters will turn mages into hamburger since they wear armor and can take hit after hit that would just hack the mage to pieces. Even if the mage becomes good with a weapon they will never overcome even a low-level fighter in a stand-up fight. Let's look at the example from before. A: 9th level mage, 36 hp, let's say he rolled really well and became an expert with the staff. No armor! Dex bonus of 1, AC 8. THAC0 17. Needs a 10 to hit. B. 4th level fighter, 36 hp, skilled in the sword, basic with shield. Chain armor (reduces damage by 4 points after the first point gets through). No dex bonus, but shield gives AC 7. THAC0 17. Needs a 9 to hit. Round 1: Fighter wins init. Fighter hits, mage makes his save and deflects. Mage hits and fighter deflects. Round 2: Fighter wins init. Fighter rolls 20, mage needs to save or this will be very bad! Mage saves and deflects! Mage hits and fighter fails to deflect, mage rolls 3 + 2 for 5 damage; fighter takes 1 hp damage leaving 35. Round 3: Fighter wins init. Both miss. Round 4: Fighter wins init. Fighter hits mage, who fails save and is hit for 5 points (on a d12 that's pretty low), leaving 31 hp. The mage hits and the fighter deflects. Round 5: Fighter wins init. Fighter hits and mage fails save, losing 6 hp for 25. Mage rolls 18 and the fighter fails to deflect, doing 8 damage; less 4 is 4, leaving 31 hp. Round 6: Ties, no deflects this round. Fighter hits, mage misses. Mage loses another 5 leaving 20. Round 7: Mage wins init. Casts magic missile. The damage done is: 7, 2, 2. Each missile must contend with the armor so the damage is 3, 1, 1 for a total of 5, leaving the fighter with 26 hp. The fighter misses. Round 8: The fighter wins init. He hits and the mage deflects. The mage gets a nat. 18 and the fighter deflects. Round 9: The fighter wins init and misses, the mage hits but the fighter deflects. Round 10: The fighter wins init and misses, the mage hits and the fighter deflects. Round 11: The mage wins init and casts a lightning bolt, doing 32 damage. The fighter fails the save and, well it is best if we do not show what happens to him. So long as the mage acts like a mage he will do well. If he starts acting like a fighter he will get cut to ribbons by someone half his level. Note that many spells that do damage are influenced by armor even if they automatically hit. I ran this system for ten years and it was pretty good in play. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Furneaux" To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > A 9th level mage maxed hp at every level = 36 hp and THAC0 17. > > > > So, without any martial training a mage is the equivalent in combat > > ability > > of a level 4-5 fighter. I think this is absurd. A level 10 fighter > > certainly > > does not gain the abilities of a level 4-5 mage, > > That said a theif can read scrolls at 10th level :p > Or could become a paladin etc. > > But seriously, a mages hit points don't mean much as he has no armour so he'll > always be getting hit. a mage will most likely became more agile with learning > more spells and experience in danger. As for the THACO I can't really comment > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:53:00 -0700 From: David Keyser Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour Sounds right, but one thing I am doubting without the books in front of me, can you deflect a weapon if you are only skilled? I thought you had to have expert or master level. Dave George Hrabovsky wrote: > Of course, using the alternate rule system from DoE you don't need to > justify anything (other than hit points, and, well, that just can't be > easily fixed, can it...) > > Fighters will turn mages into hamburger since they wear armor and can take > hit after hit that would just hack the mage to pieces. Even if the mage > becomes good with a weapon they will never overcome even a low-level fighter > in a stand-up fight. Let's look at the example from before. > > A: 9th level mage, 36 hp, let's say he rolled really well and became an > expert with the staff. No armor! Dex bonus of 1, AC 8. THAC0 17. Needs a 10 > to hit. > > B. 4th level fighter, 36 hp, skilled in the sword, basic with shield. Chain > armor (reduces damage by 4 points after the first point gets through). No > dex bonus, but shield gives AC 7. THAC0 17. Needs a 9 to hit. > > Round 1: Fighter wins init. Fighter hits, mage makes his save and deflects. > Mage hits and fighter deflects. > > Round 2: Fighter wins init. Fighter rolls 20, mage needs to save or this > will be very bad! Mage saves and deflects! Mage hits and fighter fails to > deflect, mage rolls 3 + 2 for 5 damage; fighter takes 1 hp damage leaving > 35. > > Round 3: Fighter wins init. Both miss. > > Round 4: Fighter wins init. Fighter hits mage, who fails save and is hit for > 5 points (on a d12 that's pretty low), leaving 31 hp. The mage hits and the > fighter deflects. > > Round 5: Fighter wins init. Fighter hits and mage fails save, losing 6 hp > for 25. Mage rolls 18 and the fighter fails to deflect, doing 8 damage; less > 4 is 4, leaving 31 hp. > > Round 6: Ties, no deflects this round. Fighter hits, mage misses. Mage loses > another 5 leaving 20. > > Round 7: Mage wins init. Casts magic missile. The damage done is: 7, 2, 2. > Each missile must contend with the armor so the damage is 3, 1, 1 for a > total of 5, leaving the fighter with 26 hp. The fighter misses. > > Round 8: The fighter wins init. He hits and the mage deflects. The mage gets > a nat. 18 and the fighter deflects. > > Round 9: The fighter wins init and misses, the mage hits but the fighter > deflects. > > Round 10: The fighter wins init and misses, the mage hits and the fighter > deflects. > > Round 11: The mage wins init and casts a lightning bolt, doing 32 damage. > The fighter fails the save and, well it is best if we do not show what > happens to him. > > So long as the mage acts like a mage he will do well. If he starts acting > like a fighter he will get cut to ribbons by someone half his level. Note > that many spells that do damage are influenced by armor even if they > automatically hit. > > I ran this system for ten years and it was pretty good in play. > > George > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Furneaux" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:01 PM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > > > A 9th level mage maxed hp at every level = 36 hp and THAC0 17. > > > > > > So, without any martial training a mage is the equivalent in combat > > > ability > > > of a level 4-5 fighter. I think this is absurd. A level 10 fighter > > > certainly > > > does not gain the abilities of a level 4-5 mage, > > > > That said a theif can read scrolls at 10th level :p > > Or could become a paladin etc. > > > > But seriously, a mages hit points don't mean much as he has no armour so > he'll > > always be getting hit. a mage will most likely became more agile with > learning > > more spells and experience in danger. As for the THACO I can't really > comment > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:02:19 -0300 From: "Jonathan L." Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour Pretty good for me. I think that D&D is so great for many reasons. One of them is the simple game rules. Maybe adding to this something to make more difficult to hit the enemy (not just using the AC) could be better. Or maybe making more powerfull armors. I think that in a combat the armor is very important as a last instance. The first thing you use to defend yourself is the sword and moving to avoid the attack. You don't defend yourself using your armor!! Jonathan ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Hrabovsky" To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 6:09 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > When I ran D&D some years ago I had a whole system devised for this that > incorporated the Weapon Mastery system, the new armor system, and a new to > hit system: > > To hit as normal. > A roll of natural 18 means you do max damage (assuming a hit). > A roll of natural 19 you do max damage ignoring armor (if you would have hit > anyway). > A roll of natural 20 is max double damage. > If a single hit brought you down by half hit point this resulted in a > critical hit, and a table would be consulted (temporary stat decreases, > skill roll penalties, and similar effects). > If a single hit brought you down by 3/4 then there was a special crit table > (very ugly). > > All of these systems made fighters GROSS! Mages had their spells, clerics > had their ability to call upon divine intervention and miracles, all but the > fighter had their specials. This gives fighters their due. > > I can't tell you how many times fights would go on for a long time waiting > for someone to fail a deflect (nothing like three fighters going up against > a high level master with the sword with 3 deflects and no one landing a > blow). > > George > > George > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Furneaux" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:39 PM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > > > > Here is the basis of the system: > > > > > > You hit. You roll for damage. The first point of damage always goes in. > > > If the target's AC is due to armor, subtract the AC from 9 and that is > > > the reduction of the remaining damage. For example, chain mail reduces > the > > > remaining damage by 4. Against basic skill fighters this means on > > > average someone in chain mail will take only a point of damage each time > they > > > are hit. Plate reduces the damage by 7. So does a small white dragon(!) > > > > The more I think about this the more I like it. Armour saves you (as it > should) > > a lot of the time. What this system would mean is that even if you can hit > them > > through all their armour, you won't do as much damage to them as if you > would > > an unarmoured person, because the blow is slowed substantially by metal > armour. > > > > In chain those 1st level fighters become much tougher, in plate you would > > actually have to wack them around a lot. That said high level characters > will > > still make mince meat of them and as the rule works both ways will die > less. > > > > Also it is a good reason to use more powerful weapons. I mean useing a > hand axe > > against plate without a strength bonus is going to do little dammage as it > > might get them once or twice but it is unlikly to do any serious damage. > But > > useing a 2 handed sword (as you would against plate in RL) will do some > actual > > damage. The same is true for heavy crossbows etc. If you play natural 20's > are > > double damage it makes them more immportant as they should be. > > > > It also makes tough monsters like dragons in OD&D much more difficult to > kill. > > It means you might shoot a balastia at them rather then a hail of arrows. > > > > The is but one rule I might add to it and that is that "if part of the > opponent > > is unarmoured you can make a called shot(at penalty to hit) to avoid the > damage > > reduction due to armour" > > > > With this you could aim for ones legs if they were only wearing a chain > shirt, > > and high level characters are more likely to do this because of their > chance to > > hit thus giving their substantial advantage back to them so they can still > > fight gloriously, while makeing weaknesses more important. (archilies > heal, > > smaug's chest, more cleaving of necks and heads etc) > > > > Hope this all made sence. > > > > Chris. > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:05:20 -0300 From: "Jonathan L." Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour Sorry for my ignorance, but what is "deflect a weapon"? As you can notice, I'm not good in english. Thanks! Jonathan ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Keyser" To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > Sounds right, but one thing I am doubting without the books in > front of me, can you deflect a weapon if you are only skilled? > I thought you had to have expert or master level. > > Dave > > George Hrabovsky wrote: > > > Of course, using the alternate rule system from DoE you don't need to > > justify anything (other than hit points, and, well, that just can't be > > easily fixed, can it...) > > > > Fighters will turn mages into hamburger since they wear armor and can take > > hit after hit that would just hack the mage to pieces. Even if the mage > > becomes good with a weapon they will never overcome even a low-level fighter > > in a stand-up fight. Let's look at the example from before. > > > > A: 9th level mage, 36 hp, let's say he rolled really well and became an > > expert with the staff. No armor! Dex bonus of 1, AC 8. THAC0 17. Needs a 10 > > to hit. > > > > B. 4th level fighter, 36 hp, skilled in the sword, basic with shield. Chain > > armor (reduces damage by 4 points after the first point gets through). No > > dex bonus, but shield gives AC 7. THAC0 17. Needs a 9 to hit. > > > > Round 1: Fighter wins init. Fighter hits, mage makes his save and deflects. > > Mage hits and fighter deflects. > > > > Round 2: Fighter wins init. Fighter rolls 20, mage needs to save or this > > will be very bad! Mage saves and deflects! Mage hits and fighter fails to > > deflect, mage rolls 3 + 2 for 5 damage; fighter takes 1 hp damage leaving > > 35. > > > > Round 3: Fighter wins init. Both miss. > > > > Round 4: Fighter wins init. Fighter hits mage, who fails save and is hit for > > 5 points (on a d12 that's pretty low), leaving 31 hp. The mage hits and the > > fighter deflects. > > > > Round 5: Fighter wins init. Fighter hits and mage fails save, losing 6 hp > > for 25. Mage rolls 18 and the fighter fails to deflect, doing 8 damage; less > > 4 is 4, leaving 31 hp. > > > > Round 6: Ties, no deflects this round. Fighter hits, mage misses. Mage loses > > another 5 leaving 20. > > > > Round 7: Mage wins init. Casts magic missile. The damage done is: 7, 2, 2. > > Each missile must contend with the armor so the damage is 3, 1, 1 for a > > total of 5, leaving the fighter with 26 hp. The fighter misses. > > > > Round 8: The fighter wins init. He hits and the mage deflects. The mage gets > > a nat. 18 and the fighter deflects. > > > > Round 9: The fighter wins init and misses, the mage hits but the fighter > > deflects. > > > > Round 10: The fighter wins init and misses, the mage hits and the fighter > > deflects. > > > > Round 11: The mage wins init and casts a lightning bolt, doing 32 damage. > > The fighter fails the save and, well it is best if we do not show what > > happens to him. > > > > So long as the mage acts like a mage he will do well. If he starts acting > > like a fighter he will get cut to ribbons by someone half his level. Note > > that many spells that do damage are influenced by armor even if they > > automatically hit. > > > > I ran this system for ten years and it was pretty good in play. > > > > George > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chris Furneaux" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:01 PM > > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > > > > > A 9th level mage maxed hp at every level = 36 hp and THAC0 17. > > > > > > > > So, without any martial training a mage is the equivalent in combat > > > > ability > > > > of a level 4-5 fighter. I think this is absurd. A level 10 fighter > > > > certainly > > > > does not gain the abilities of a level 4-5 mage, > > > > > > That said a theif can read scrolls at 10th level :p > > > Or could become a paladin etc. > > > > > > But seriously, a mages hit points don't mean much as he has no armour so > > he'll > > > always be getting hit. a mage will most likely became more agile with > > learning > > > more spells and experience in danger. As for the THACO I can't really > > comment > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:19:02 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour Both the sword and staff gain one deflect at skilled (along with numerous other weapons). George ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Keyser" To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > Sounds right, but one thing I am doubting without the books in > front of me, can you deflect a weapon if you are only skilled? > I thought you had to have expert or master level. > > Dave > > George Hrabovsky wrote: > > > Of course, using the alternate rule system from DoE you don't need to > > justify anything (other than hit points, and, well, that just can't be > > easily fixed, can it...) > > > > Fighters will turn mages into hamburger since they wear armor and can take > > hit after hit that would just hack the mage to pieces. Even if the mage > > becomes good with a weapon they will never overcome even a low-level fighter > > in a stand-up fight. Let's look at the example from before. > > > > A: 9th level mage, 36 hp, let's say he rolled really well and became an > > expert with the staff. No armor! Dex bonus of 1, AC 8. THAC0 17. Needs a 10 > > to hit. > > > > B. 4th level fighter, 36 hp, skilled in the sword, basic with shield. Chain > > armor (reduces damage by 4 points after the first point gets through). No > > dex bonus, but shield gives AC 7. THAC0 17. Needs a 9 to hit. > > > > Round 1: Fighter wins init. Fighter hits, mage makes his save and deflects. > > Mage hits and fighter deflects. > > > > Round 2: Fighter wins init. Fighter rolls 20, mage needs to save or this > > will be very bad! Mage saves and deflects! Mage hits and fighter fails to > > deflect, mage rolls 3 + 2 for 5 damage; fighter takes 1 hp damage leaving > > 35. > > > > Round 3: Fighter wins init. Both miss. > > > > Round 4: Fighter wins init. Fighter hits mage, who fails save and is hit for > > 5 points (on a d12 that's pretty low), leaving 31 hp. The mage hits and the > > fighter deflects. > > > > Round 5: Fighter wins init. Fighter hits and mage fails save, losing 6 hp > > for 25. Mage rolls 18 and the fighter fails to deflect, doing 8 damage; less > > 4 is 4, leaving 31 hp. > > > > Round 6: Ties, no deflects this round. Fighter hits, mage misses. Mage loses > > another 5 leaving 20. > > > > Round 7: Mage wins init. Casts magic missile. The damage done is: 7, 2, 2. > > Each missile must contend with the armor so the damage is 3, 1, 1 for a > > total of 5, leaving the fighter with 26 hp. The fighter misses. > > > > Round 8: The fighter wins init. He hits and the mage deflects. The mage gets > > a nat. 18 and the fighter deflects. > > > > Round 9: The fighter wins init and misses, the mage hits but the fighter > > deflects. > > > > Round 10: The fighter wins init and misses, the mage hits and the fighter > > deflects. > > > > Round 11: The mage wins init and casts a lightning bolt, doing 32 damage. > > The fighter fails the save and, well it is best if we do not show what > > happens to him. > > > > So long as the mage acts like a mage he will do well. If he starts acting > > like a fighter he will get cut to ribbons by someone half his level. Note > > that many spells that do damage are influenced by armor even if they > > automatically hit. > > > > I ran this system for ten years and it was pretty good in play. > > > > George > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chris Furneaux" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:01 PM > > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > > > > > A 9th level mage maxed hp at every level = 36 hp and THAC0 17. > > > > > > > > So, without any martial training a mage is the equivalent in combat > > > > ability > > > > of a level 4-5 fighter. I think this is absurd. A level 10 fighter > > > > certainly > > > > does not gain the abilities of a level 4-5 mage, > > > > > > That said a theif can read scrolls at 10th level :p > > > Or could become a paladin etc. > > > > > > But seriously, a mages hit points don't mean much as he has no armour so > > he'll > > > always be getting hit. a mage will most likely became more agile with > > learning > > > more spells and experience in danger. As for the THACO I can't really > > comment > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:21:24 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour Certain weapons allow you to deflect as you get better in their use (skilled, expert, master, and grand master). A deflect is a save-vs.death to avoid a blow that you would otherwise take. A sword, in the hands of someone skilled, gains a single deflect in a round. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan L." To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > Sorry for my ignorance, > but what is "deflect a weapon"? > As you can notice, I'm not good in english. > > Thanks! > > Jonathan > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Keyser" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 6:53 PM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > > > Sounds right, but one thing I am doubting without the books in > > front of me, can you deflect a weapon if you are only skilled? > > I thought you had to have expert or master level. > > > > Dave > > > > George Hrabovsky wrote: > > > > > Of course, using the alternate rule system from DoE you don't need to > > > justify anything (other than hit points, and, well, that just can't be > > > easily fixed, can it...) > > > > > > Fighters will turn mages into hamburger since they wear armor and can > take > > > hit after hit that would just hack the mage to pieces. Even if the mage > > > becomes good with a weapon they will never overcome even a low-level > fighter > > > in a stand-up fight. Let's look at the example from before. > > > > > > A: 9th level mage, 36 hp, let's say he rolled really well and became an > > > expert with the staff. No armor! Dex bonus of 1, AC 8. THAC0 17. Needs a > 10 > > > to hit. > > > > > > B. 4th level fighter, 36 hp, skilled in the sword, basic with shield. > Chain > > > armor (reduces damage by 4 points after the first point gets through). > No > > > dex bonus, but shield gives AC 7. THAC0 17. Needs a 9 to hit. > > > > > > Round 1: Fighter wins init. Fighter hits, mage makes his save and > deflects. > > > Mage hits and fighter deflects. > > > > > > Round 2: Fighter wins init. Fighter rolls 20, mage needs to save or this > > > will be very bad! Mage saves and deflects! Mage hits and fighter fails > to > > > deflect, mage rolls 3 + 2 for 5 damage; fighter takes 1 hp damage > leaving > > > 35. > > > > > > Round 3: Fighter wins init. Both miss. > > > > > > Round 4: Fighter wins init. Fighter hits mage, who fails save and is hit > for > > > 5 points (on a d12 that's pretty low), leaving 31 hp. The mage hits and > the > > > fighter deflects. > > > > > > Round 5: Fighter wins init. Fighter hits and mage fails save, losing 6 > hp > > > for 25. Mage rolls 18 and the fighter fails to deflect, doing 8 damage; > less > > > 4 is 4, leaving 31 hp. > > > > > > Round 6: Ties, no deflects this round. Fighter hits, mage misses. Mage > loses > > > another 5 leaving 20. > > > > > > Round 7: Mage wins init. Casts magic missile. The damage done is: 7, 2, > 2. > > > Each missile must contend with the armor so the damage is 3, 1, 1 for a > > > total of 5, leaving the fighter with 26 hp. The fighter misses. > > > > > > Round 8: The fighter wins init. He hits and the mage deflects. The mage > gets > > > a nat. 18 and the fighter deflects. > > > > > > Round 9: The fighter wins init and misses, the mage hits but the fighter > > > deflects. > > > > > > Round 10: The fighter wins init and misses, the mage hits and the > fighter > > > deflects. > > > > > > Round 11: The mage wins init and casts a lightning bolt, doing 32 > damage. > > > The fighter fails the save and, well it is best if we do not show what > > > happens to him. > > > > > > So long as the mage acts like a mage he will do well. If he starts > acting > > > like a fighter he will get cut to ribbons by someone half his level. > Note > > > that many spells that do damage are influenced by armor even if they > > > automatically hit. > > > > > > I ran this system for ten years and it was pretty good in play. > > > > > > George > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Chris Furneaux" > > > To: > > > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:01 PM > > > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > > > > > > > A 9th level mage maxed hp at every level = 36 hp and THAC0 17. > > > > > > > > > > So, without any martial training a mage is the equivalent in combat > > > > > ability > > > > > of a level 4-5 fighter. I think this is absurd. A level 10 fighter > > > > > certainly > > > > > does not gain the abilities of a level 4-5 mage, > > > > > > > > That said a theif can read scrolls at 10th level :p > > > > Or could become a paladin etc. > > > > > > > > But seriously, a mages hit points don't mean much as he has no armour > so > > > he'll > > > > always be getting hit. a mage will most likely became more agile with > > > learning > > > > more spells and experience in danger. As for the THACO I can't really > > > comment > > > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 18:08:54 -0500 From: Stone Marshall Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour I would say he spends the majority of his life going through dungeons and fighting dragons ;-) Remember even Gandalf and Merlin had swords. Multizar the Mage (who carrys a dagger) > From: George Hrabovsky > Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:32:43 -0500 > > The guy spends the majority of his life in study of books and such to > become > an expert fighter? Hmmm. > > :-) > > George > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jacob Skytte" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:15 PM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > > George Hrabovsky wrote: > > > > What? Mages can learn to defend themselves without training? Let's apply > a > > little Reductio Ad Absurdum to this: > > > > A 9th level mage maxed hp at every level = 36 hp and THAC0 17. > > > > So, without any martial training a mage is the equivalent in combat > ability > > of a level 4-5 fighter. I think this is absurd. A level 10 fighter > certainly > > does not gain the abilities of a level 4-5 mage, why should this be the > > other way around. (Of course, I think the hit point system is silly to > begin > > with.) > > > > By the way, I am not intending to start a flame war with this. I simply > am > > voicing my opinion. > > Well, what did that 9th level mage do while earning his experience? Was he > an adventurer, who had to fend off monster attacks to stay alive? > > Ok, so I agree that it's absurd, but then the D&D system in general is > pretty absurd, no matter which rule you pick for discussion. ;) IMO, of > course. Never stopped me from enjoying playing it, though. Well, except > when > people started discussing the absurdity of the rules in the middle of a > game... > > Jacob Skytte > scythe@wanadoo.dk > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:29:47 -0700 From: Larry Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour I cant say anything about LoTR's Gandolf, but Merlin is a dule classed NPC. His first edition writeup: Druid (14), Magic-user (15), Illusionist (11) Second edition stats: Wizard (17), Druid (14). --- Stone Marshall wrote: > I would say he spends the majority of his life going > through dungeons and > fighting dragons ;-) Remember even Gandalf and > Merlin had swords. > > Multizar the Mage (who > carrys a dagger) > > > >From: George Hrabovsky > >Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion > > >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > >Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:32:43 -0500 > > > >The guy spends the majority of his life in study of > books and such to > >become > >an expert fighter? Hmmm. > > > >:-) > > > > George > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Jacob Skytte" > >To: > >Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:15 PM > >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > > > > >George Hrabovsky wrote: > > > > > > > What? Mages can learn to defend themselves > without training? Let's apply > >a > > > little Reductio Ad Absurdum to this: > > > > > > A 9th level mage maxed hp at every level = 36 hp > and THAC0 17. > > > > > > So, without any martial training a mage is the > equivalent in combat > >ability > > > of a level 4-5 fighter. I think this is absurd. > A level 10 fighter > >certainly > > > does not gain the abilities of a level 4-5 mage, > why should this be the > > > other way around. (Of course, I think the hit > point system is silly to > >begin > > > with.) > > > > > > By the way, I am not intending to start a flame > war with this. I simply > >am > > > voicing my opinion. > > > >Well, what did that 9th level mage do while earning > his experience? Was he > >an adventurer, who had to fend off monster attacks > to stay alive? > > > >Ok, so I agree that it's absurd, but then the D&D > system in general is > >pretty absurd, no matter which rule you pick for > discussion. ;) IMO, of > >course. Never stopped me from enjoying playing it, > though. Well, except > >when > >people started discussing the absurdity of the > rules in the middle of a > >game... > > > >Jacob Skytte > >scythe@wanadoo.dk > > > > ******************************************************************** > >The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > >The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > >To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > ******************************************************************** > >The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > >The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > >To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN > Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ===== "May Tyr be with us all and protect us all from the Wolfs Hook" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Happy Hunting!" My web site: http://www.geocities.com/boonedale/ My Robotech game on Yahoo! groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RobotechGame/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:01:46 -0700 From: Kar Ess Subject: Languages? Has anyone compiled a listing of the languages in Mystara. You know: Nation Language Race Era Was thinking a table would be a good thing to give starting players. KS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:04:25 +1200 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour > I think that in a combat the armor is very important as a last instance. > The first thing you use to defend yourself is the sword and moving to avoid > the attack. > You don't defend yourself using your armor!! Agreed that it is not the first line of defence, but there is no reason you cannot defend yourself using your armor. If you couldn't get out of the way there is little reason why you couldn't fend with a plate armoured arm. I do sometimes, or course those swords aren't sharp :D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:41:52 +0000 From: adrian mattias Subject: The BEST combat system I enjoy using the D&D combat system because of its simplicity, but my principal interest in D&D is on the army combat level. If you want the best individual combat system, without doubt you would have to use MERP (Middle Earth Role Playing)/Rolemaster. The critical tables used there provide so much fun and entertainment for players ... except of course when some puny orc rolls a 00 on two ten sided dice, followed by say a 98 giving them an E "slash" crit whereupon they roll yet another 00, thus cleaving the players head cleanly from their shoulders. Then for some reason they stop laughing so much ... Apologies to those not familiar with the system. I heartily recommend it to any who have not tried it. By far the most fun I have had roleplaying combats at an individual level. Adrian > From: Larry > Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:29:47 -0700 > > I cant say anything about LoTR's Gandolf, but Merlin > is a dule classed NPC. His first edition writeup: > Druid (14), Magic-user (15), Illusionist (11) > Second edition stats: Wizard (17), Druid (14). > > > --- Stone Marshall wrote: > > I would say he spends the majority of his life going > > through dungeons and > > fighting dragons ;-) Remember even Gandalf and > > Merlin had swords. > > > > Multizar the Mage (who > > carrys a dagger) > > > > > > >From: George Hrabovsky > > >Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion > > > > >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > >Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:32:43 -0500 > > > > > >The guy spends the majority of his life in study of > > books and such to > > >become > > >an expert fighter? Hmmm. > > > > > >:-) > > > > > > George > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Jacob Skytte" > > >To: > > >Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:15 PM > > >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > > > > > > > >George Hrabovsky wrote: > > > > > > > > > > What? Mages can learn to defend themselves > > without training? Let's apply > > >a > > > > little Reductio Ad Absurdum to this: > > > > > > > > A 9th level mage maxed hp at every level = 36 hp > > and THAC0 17. > > > > > > > > So, without any martial training a mage is the > > equivalent in combat > > >ability > > > > of a level 4-5 fighter. I think this is absurd. > > A level 10 fighter > > >certainly > > > > does not gain the abilities of a level 4-5 mage, > > why should this be the > > > > other way around. (Of course, I think the hit > > point system is silly to > > >begin > > > > with.) > > > > > > > > By the way, I am not intending to start a flame > > war with this. I simply > > >am > > > > voicing my opinion. > > > > > >Well, what did that 9th level mage do while earning > > his experience? Was he > > >an adventurer, who had to fend off monster attacks > > to stay alive? > > > > > >Ok, so I agree that it's absurd, but then the D&D > > system in general is > > >pretty absurd, no matter which rule you pick for > > discussion. ;) IMO, of > > >course. Never stopped me from enjoying playing it, > > though. Well, except > > >when > > >people started discussing the absurdity of the > > rules in the middle of a > > >game... > > > > > >Jacob Skytte > > >scythe@wanadoo.dk > > > > > > >******************************************************************** > > >The Other Worlds Homepage: > > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > >The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > >To unsubscribe, send email to > > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > >******************************************************************** > > >The Other Worlds Homepage: > > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > >The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > >To unsubscribe, send email to > > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN > > Hotmail. > > http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: > > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > To unsubscribe, send email to > > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > ===== > "May Tyr be with us all and protect us all from the Wolfs Hook" > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > "Happy Hunting!" > My web site: > http://www.geocities.com/boonedale/ > My Robotech game on Yahoo! groups: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RobotechGame/ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs > http://www.hotjobs.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:33:29 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Enchanting Armour Gandalf was a lesser god. Merlin was not exactly mortal either. Also, neither of them carried normal swords. I am not objecting to mages using weapons, but the idea that even high level mages will be effective against true warriors is not reasonable; otherwise what is the point of playing a fighter? George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stone Marshall" To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > I would say he spends the majority of his life going through dungeons and > fighting dragons ;-) Remember even Gandalf and Merlin had swords. > > Multizar the Mage (who carrys a dagger) > > > >From: George Hrabovsky > >Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion > >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > >Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:32:43 -0500 > > > >The guy spends the majority of his life in study of books and such to > >become > >an expert fighter? Hmmm. > > > >:-) > > > > George > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Jacob Skytte" > >To: > >Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:15 PM > >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > > > > >George Hrabovsky wrote: > > > > > > > What? Mages can learn to defend themselves without training? Let's apply > >a > > > little Reductio Ad Absurdum to this: > > > > > > A 9th level mage maxed hp at every level = 36 hp and THAC0 17. > > > > > > So, without any martial training a mage is the equivalent in combat > >ability > > > of a level 4-5 fighter. I think this is absurd. A level 10 fighter > >certainly > > > does not gain the abilities of a level 4-5 mage, why should this be the > > > other way around. (Of course, I think the hit point system is silly to > >begin > > > with.) > > > > > > By the way, I am not intending to start a flame war with this. I simply > >am > > > voicing my opinion. > > > >Well, what did that 9th level mage do while earning his experience? Was he > >an adventurer, who had to fend off monster attacks to stay alive? > > > >Ok, so I agree that it's absurd, but then the D&D system in general is > >pretty absurd, no matter which rule you pick for discussion. ;) IMO, of > >course. Never stopped me from enjoying playing it, though. Well, except > >when > >people started discussing the absurdity of the rules in the middle of a > >game... > > > >Jacob Skytte > >scythe@wanadoo.dk > > > >******************************************************************** > >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > >The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > >******************************************************************** > >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > >The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:40:01 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: The BEST combat system Too bad the ICE system is too inflexible to be used without extensive background work. You need to rate weapons for size of the creature, and I would rather not have to write a graduate thesis on weapons in order to use a system. The number of charts is bewildering to say the least. I ran the system for a Middle Earth-based game some years ago and after a few months went to something that was simpler. Spending two hours on a ten minute fight just didn't cut it for us. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "adrian mattias" To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:41 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] The BEST combat system > I enjoy using the D&D combat system because of its simplicity, but my > principal interest in D&D is on the army combat level. > > If you want the best individual combat system, without doubt you would have > to use MERP (Middle Earth Role Playing)/Rolemaster. The critical tables used > there provide so much fun and entertainment for players ... except of course > when some puny orc rolls a 00 on two ten sided dice, followed by say a 98 > giving them an E "slash" crit whereupon they roll yet another 00, thus > cleaving the players head cleanly from their shoulders. Then for some > reason they stop laughing so much ... > > Apologies to those not familiar with the system. I heartily recommend it to > any who have not tried it. By far the most fun I have had roleplaying > combats at an individual level. > > Adrian > > > >From: Larry > >Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion > >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > >Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:29:47 -0700 > > > >I cant say anything about LoTR's Gandolf, but Merlin > >is a dule classed NPC. His first edition writeup: > >Druid (14), Magic-user (15), Illusionist (11) > >Second edition stats: Wizard (17), Druid (14). > > > > > >--- Stone Marshall wrote: > > > I would say he spends the majority of his life going > > > through dungeons and > > > fighting dragons ;-) Remember even Gandalf and > > > Merlin had swords. > > > > > > Multizar the Mage (who > > > carrys a dagger) > > > > > > > > > >From: George Hrabovsky > > > >Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion > > > > > > >To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > > >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > > >Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:32:43 -0500 > > > > > > > >The guy spends the majority of his life in study of > > > books and such to > > > >become > > > >an expert fighter? Hmmm. > > > > > > > >:-) > > > > > > > > George > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: "Jacob Skytte" > > > >To: > > > >Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:15 PM > > > >Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Enchanting Armour > > > > > > > > > > > >George Hrabovsky wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? Mages can learn to defend themselves > > > without training? Let's apply > > > >a > > > > > little Reductio Ad Absurdum to this: > > > > > > > > > > A 9th level mage maxed hp at every level = 36 hp > > > and THAC0 17. > > > > > > > > > > So, without any martial training a mage is the > > > equivalent in combat > > > >ability > > > > > of a level 4-5 fighter. I think this is absurd. > > > A level 10 fighter > > > >certainly > > > > > does not gain the abilities of a level 4-5 mage, > > > why should this be the > > > > > other way around. (Of course, I think the hit > > > point system is silly to > > > >begin > > > > > with.) > > > > > > > > > > By the way, I am not intending to start a flame > > > war with this. I simply > > > >am > > > > > voicing my opinion. > > > > > > > >Well, what did that 9th level mage do while earning > > > his experience? Was he > > > >an adventurer, who had to fend off monster attacks > > > to stay alive? > > > > > > > >Ok, so I agree that it's absurd, but then the D&D > > > system in general is > > > >pretty absurd, no matter which rule you pick for > > > discussion. ;) IMO, of > > > >course. Never stopped me from enjoying playing it, > > > though. Well, except > > > >when > > > >people started discussing the absurdity of the > > > rules in the middle of a > > > >game... > > > > > > > >Jacob Skytte > > > >scythe@wanadoo.dk > > > > > > > > > >******************************************************************** > > > >The Other Worlds Homepage: > > > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > > >The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > > >To unsubscribe, send email to > > > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > > >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > > > > >******************************************************************** > > > >The Other Worlds Homepage: > > > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > > >The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > > >To unsubscribe, send email to > > > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > > >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN > > > Hotmail. > > > http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > > >******************************************************************** > > > The Other Worlds Homepage: > > > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > > To unsubscribe, send email to > > > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > > > >===== > >"May Tyr be with us all and protect us all from the Wolfs Hook" > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >"Happy Hunting!" > >My web site: > >http://www.geocities.com/boonedale/ > >My Robotech game on Yahoo! groups: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RobotechGame/ > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs > >http://www.hotjobs.com > > > >******************************************************************** > >The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > >The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > >To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > >with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:41:57 +0300 From: Saarela Sami Subject: VS: The BEST combat system Hi, Coming out of lurk-mode... I use the ICE system for my Mystara campaign, and I wouldn't have it any other way. IMO the O/ADD combat system is too simplistic and doesn't give true chance a break. Meaning when a, say, 10th level fighter meets a band of orcs (goblins, kobolds etc.) he doesn't really have to be concerned. The fighter would need to roll abysmally badly for so long it is practically statistically impossible. In the ICE system the situation is pretty much similar, but things _can_ go very wrong with only a one or two bad (or good for the opposition) dice rolls. This, i think, makes the players, and their characters, a bit more cautious. My players generally try to solve things with minimal violence. (Although the group does have 2 pretty trigger-happy characters, or should that be hilt-happy.) But, unfortunately, George is absolutely right in the amount of charts and wading through them can be a real turn-off for some players (and GMs) in the heat of combat. I don't recommend the ICE system to anyone who is comfortable with the DD system. Bbut if you consider the DD system too simplistic, abstract and unrealistic, then I can wholeheartedly recommend the most realistic melee combat system. I do have to confess, that even I _hate_ cross checking the charts in combat, because it really can bog you down. That's why I use a computer while gaming. A nice little excel-sheet does all that table crunching for me and the combat runs fast enough (about 5-10mins RW-time for a 2min combat). This is what computer were created for! For an unexperienced GM (and I mean unexperienced in chart-wading) without CAC (Computer Aided Combat) the 2h/10mins that George mentions sounds about right. - Sami PS. George, I don't quite understand what you meant with "rating the weapons" and having "to write a graduate thesis on weapons". Could you please clarify. -----Alkuperäinen viesti----- Lähettäjä: George Hrabovsky Aihe: Re: [MYSTARA] The BEST combat system Too bad the ICE system is too inflexible to be used without extensive background work. You need to rate weapons for size of the creature, and I would rather not have to write a graduate thesis on weapons in order to use a system. The number of charts is bewildering to say the least. I ran the system for a Middle Earth-based game some years ago and after a few months went to something that was simpler. Spending two hours on a ten minute fight just didn't cut it for us. George ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:58:15 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Alfheimer physical descriptions At 07:32 AM 8/14/02 -0700, you wrote: > > Mealidil: got nothing on this one. probably similar to Erendyl I'd actually think they were more similar to the Red Arrow clan, considering that the two clans are connected (Red Arrow being an offshoot of the Mealidil clan) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:46:54 +0000 From: adrian mattias Subject: Re: VS: The BEST combat system Sami, I have to agree with you concerning the complexity of the system. But, like you, I adopted a less time consuming version - perhaps not as good as using a computer, but saved plenty of time with some custom quick reference tables. Aside from adding a little more "realism" to combats, my players had endless fun seeing what criticals they could score on their opponents. My hat goes off to the good people of ICE for the amusing critical results. Such a shame that ICE lost their Lord of the Rings licence just before the movies came out ... Adrian > From: Saarela Sami > Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: [MYSTARA] VS: The BEST combat system > Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:41:57 +0300 > > Hi, > > Coming out of lurk-mode... > > I use the ICE system for my Mystara campaign, and I wouldn't have it any > other way. IMO the O/ADD combat system is too simplistic and doesn't give > true chance a break. Meaning when a, say, 10th level fighter meets a band > of > orcs (goblins, kobolds etc.) he doesn't really have to be concerned. The > fighter would need to roll abysmally badly for so long it is practically > statistically impossible. In the ICE system the situation is pretty much > similar, but things _can_ go very wrong with only a one or two bad (or good > for the opposition) dice rolls. This, i think, makes the players, and their > characters, a bit more cautious. My players generally try to solve things > with minimal violence. (Although the group does have 2 pretty trigger-happy > characters, or should that be hilt-happy.) > > But, unfortunately, George is absolutely right in the amount of charts and > wading through them can be a real turn-off for some players (and GMs) in > the > heat of combat. I don't recommend the ICE system to anyone who is > comfortable with the DD system. Bbut if you consider the DD system too > simplistic, abstract and unrealistic, then I can wholeheartedly recommend > the most realistic melee combat system. > > I do have to confess, that even I _hate_ cross checking the charts in > combat, because it really can bog you down. That's why I use a computer > while gaming. A nice little excel-sheet does all that table crunching for > me > and the combat runs fast enough (about 5-10mins RW-time for a 2min combat). > This is what computer were created for! For an unexperienced GM (and I mean > unexperienced in chart-wading) without CAC (Computer Aided Combat) the > 2h/10mins that George mentions sounds about right. > > > - Sami > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 14 Aug 2002 to 15 Aug 2002 (#2002-211) ****************************************************************