Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 2 Sep 2002 to 3 Sep 2002 (#2002-230) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 04/09/2002, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 23 messages totalling 1199 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. History of the Dwarven Race (2) 2. Blackmoor Problems (8) 3. Original Alphatian Population (2) 4. Some ethnography - A first glance (long) (4) 5. Blackmoor maps available (3) 6. I'm Back...I think 7. Blackmoor Web Address? 8. Freeport city of adventure 9. Heldanic Knight grip on Norwold ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:40:20 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: History of the Dwarven Race > > HISTORY OF THE DWARVEN RACE > > by Giulio N. Caroletti and Jacob Skytte > > (with thanks to various MML members for ideas) D'oh! I knew I missed someone when I wrote this: thanks Chris because the basic timeline that we used were the one you had written. > > Good work. Very solid and yet very flexible. Thanks! > > Personally it I thought it might be interesting to > see more internal conflict Well, it's not sooo convincing, I know, but to me it made more sense than the "dwarves storm the Modrigswerg fortress then the race dies out and is reformed by Kagyar" (by the way, too similar to "lizard men storm the Makai villages then the race dies out and is reformed by Ka"). I suppose that both ideas could be used if someone is able to work them around properly. Maybe Kagyar has some dwarves storm the Modrigswerg fortress, kill most of his followers, then he goes to Loki and says "ok, let's have a talk now...". > > Denwarf did not appear very fleshed out but that > makes it easier to insert any > details that you desire later. Yes, the second part of the history is very "basic". I hope to write some "appendix" history of the various clans/races, sometime in the future. Anyway, Denwarf's history is detailed very well in GAZ6, HWR and PWA; for those who don't have these supplements, I'll do a writeup for him sometime in the future (promises! just promises! like every skilled Thyatian politician...) > I liked it a lot and > it strikes a good balance. Thanks very much, for your input that helped our work and for your interest! Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:51:46 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems > 1)Blackmoor, where is it? > althouth as Giulio(?) pointed out, it > Thonia and Blackmoor should be switched on the > precataclysmic map from the HW boxed set. It was Geoff, if I recall correctly. Anyway, I have always been in support of this theory. Moreover, I suppose that TSR cartographers messed because of the fact that the map for the HW has E and W reversed...just try to imagine the headache ("hey, this is west..." "...wait, is this the Outer World or the Hollow World?") 8-) > 2) The Peoples of Blackmoor and Mystara today: I don't own the DA series, but I am very interested in the old peoples of Blackmoor time, especially because of my involvement in Skothar. Could anyone make a basic description of the kingdoms and ethnic groups of the time (or point me to a link at the Vaults)? I know of the Blackmoorians that are descended by the Thonians, of the Skandaharians that are similar to vikings, of the Egg of Coot (something per se), of the Afridhi (of which very little is known). I didn't know about the Peshwans, and I don't know the Duchy of Ten (except for its name). Please, someone help me!!! 8-) > What people seem to forget when discussing this is > that the Blackmoor-Thonian civilsation existed > around > 6000 years ago. This is a very long time. > However, this is a fantasy setting and I, like you > guys like the fact that there should be some > connection between the peoples of Blackmoor and > modern > day Mystarans. Some civilizations SHOULD have been destroyed, I think. Of Blackmoor, nothing should remain. However, Thonia is an example of a kingdom that survived the Rain of Fire and is still existing...I think that maybe some borderline community could have survived (e.g. Peshwans according to Andrew). > What other peoples were there? The Afridhi were > probably wiped out even before the Blackmoor's began > their rise in technology. I agree that they were wiped out of Blackmoor. In my Skothar timeline (not released, it's more a "work in progress" reference for my Skothar material) the Afridhi would have ended in the eastern parts of Skothar, north of the Tanagoro lands. Some Afridhi descended populations would still exist (e.g. Nentsun has some Afridhi ancestry). Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 06:24:40 -0500 From: Mischa Gelman Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, [iso-8859-1] la Volpe wrote: > I don't own the DA series, but I am very interested in > the old peoples of Blackmoor time, especially because > of my involvement in Skothar. Could anyone make a > basic description of the kingdoms and ethnic groups of > the time (or point me to a link at the Vaults)? Here are some quick descriptions - Blackmoor - A small kingdom that broke away from the Empire of Thonia under the leadership of Uther the Just. A multicultural land featuring dwarves, halflings, elves and humans, they are also large supporters of education. Surrounded on all sides by enemies. Skandharians - Stereotypical Viking-style raiders. They regularly raid the coasts of Blackmoor, Thonia and the Duchy of Ten and are big on slavery. They are split into the Raiders of the East and Raiders of the West, united under a common ruler. The Egg of Coot - A strange, twisted creature of great intelligence and power that rules a land called Coot (an island north of Blackmoor). A quarter of its subjects are slaves and I imagine few reside there willingly. A lot is left up to the imagination of the reader. The Duchy of the Peaks - A libertine land in the mountains NW of Blackmoor and N of the Duchy of Ten. A small country where basically anything goes (heck, the leader is a former exotic dancer). THe Duchy of Ten - A medieval-style country that was defeated by the Afridhi in a prolonged campaign. Under Afridhi rule 1,000 years prior to the cataclysm; some loyalists remain but it is basically the central point for Afridhi military operations. The Afridhi - A large bunch of barbarians ruled by a matriarchy/theocracy. Very efficient militarily, they are the greatest danger to Blackmoor from the west. They worship Zugzul. A small group of male dissidents exists. The Froggies - A religious cult that worships frogs and is led by St. Stephen, a former spaceship chief of security. Other aliens occupy key ranks in the Froggie organization, which is based in the swamps of SW Blackmoor. They have access to quite a good deal of alien technology. Basically destroyed in the course of DA2. The Horsemen of Peshwah - Nomadic horsemen that live in the unstable (politically) lands between Blackmoor, the Duchy of Ten and Thonia. They are neutral in the conflict, but are steadily being forced back and may ally with one side or another. A loose confederation of tribes from a political standpoint. Thonia - The large, vast, decadent and decaying empire SE of Blackmoor. Fairly reminiscent of Rome in its decline (at least that's the picture I get). Still the world's greatest power. 1,000 years prior to the end of Blackmoor, it was led by an arrogant, clueless twit who got his position based on family lineage (Bush/Gore jokes omitted). The Sand Folk - 4-armed desert dwellers. Nomadic folks who follow a code of honor and tradition. They often have dealings with the folks in the City of the Gds. City of the Gds - The crashed spaceship that is the FSS Beagle. Manned by the surviving crew who didn't desert when St. Stephen did. Run by a paranoid Cpt. Bork Riesling and defended by many robots and humans. A survey ship, they are still doing some research while trying to find a way back home. Orcs of the Black Hand - Orcs who reside in the mountains of eastern Blackmoor. Often at war with the Blackmoorian dwarves. At the time of DA1, they are currently holding prisoner the Regent of the Mines, the leader of the dwarves of the land. His capture ended a truce between the dwarves and orcs. Hope that helps. - Mischa [A]ll the fine arts promote virtue while virtue is in fashion. After that they promote luxury...corruption, prostitution, and every specie of advanced depravity. - John Adams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:56:07 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Original Alphatian Population Hello! Any clue to which were the original Alphatians??? Greetings, Giulio aka ISS ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:30:31 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Some ethnography - A first glance (long) Hello all. I am trying to get a picture of the Ethnography in Mystara. We all know that originally there were the Neathar, the Oltecs and the Tanagoro. However, these are three races belonging to the "western" world. They all had contact with Brun, in some way or another. What about Skothar? Should we consider them totally of another kind? Well, I think I'll concentrate on Brun's nations, now, and I'll try to assemble the pieces we have, let's see what you think of it. TANAGORO & TANGOR Basically, let's assume that the Tanagoro's original stock has died out (an assumption on which I based my Tangor timeline at the Southern Skothar Online Gaz, at www.geocities.com/tangormina), and left only barbaric Tanagoros that eventually will migrate westward to become Pearl Islanders and Yavi, or remain in Eastern Skothar and form the Empire of Tangor (Mystara Almanac 1017) and other eastern nations. NEATHAR The Neathar are a Brun-based population, whose direct descendants, if I'm not wrong, are just the Antalians. Accordingly to the GAZetteers, Traldar are of Nithian ethnicity, although I recall that several MML writers dismissed this information assuming that they were one of the conquered people of the Nithian Empire. If this hypothesis is correct, and we assume that Neathar are similar in some way to Indoeuropeans, then we could say that Traldar are Slavic. However, the origin of the Traldar race and their descendants is a very problematic issue that we must resolve. If we take a look on fan-based material and decide to try to fit it into canon (something worthwile, if you ask me, since we have the Great Hule by C.Constantin and the Empire of Zuyevo by A.Mattias, two excellent additions to Mystara), we must explain why the Traldar clan (either a small clan conquered by the Nithians, or a Nithian clan) was able to be so big to: 1) settle Traladara 2) settle Darokin 3) settle Zuyevo 4) settle regions of the Great Hule 5) found Milenia An idea could be that a Traldar "nation" was living west of the Northern Reaches' mountains already. Something like: Neathar descended tribes of the east (east of the mountains) are Antalians, Neathar tribes of the west are...what should we name them, Trantalians? One clan of Trantalians, the Traldar, settles east sometime in their history, south to all the Antalian tribes, and becomes the Traldar clan conquered by Nithia. Or something similar to this. Some ties would remain with their relatives on the west, so they feel like belonging to the same people, when Traldar migrate to Traladara some of the Darokin settled move there, and we could even assume that the northern expansion of the Traldar kingdom reaches Selenica and those regions, maybe some colonies even to the west, toward Darokin proper (remember there is no Canolbarth Forest). The Antalian origin of the Thyatians are another issue. I would solve it using the work of George Dumezil, a famous ethnicist, linguist and ancient religion-scholar. According to Dumezil, among the Indoeuropeans main tribes, the ones most closely related are Germans and Italics (Italics includes Latins, and thus Romans, obviously!!). Thus, we could assume that a Proto-Antalian group included the proper Antalians and the ancestors of the Thyatians and Kerendans. These tribes could be named something like "Thyantalians" (souther Antalians). All the Thyantalian tribes would have been eradicated by the Nithian conquest, except Thyatians and Kerendans, that, along with the Hattians (the southernmost proper Antalian tribe) are sent to Davania. This could explain the strong cultural difference - the Milenian influence would play on the Thyatians in a similar way to how Etrurians and Hellenites did to the Romans and Latins. What are the other Neathar descended nations? According to the HWR, Ethengar and Ylari have some Neathar blood in them, haven't they? Are they mixed with the Oltecs? And what about Sindh? Last, but not least, I seem to remember that the Dunael and Thratians are descended from the Neathar. They would fill in the Celtic group of Indoeuropeans. ALPHATIA Another issue to solve is the original population of Alphatia. Were they Jen? Were they Antalians? Were they Dunael? Is there any trace left in the Alphatian blood or were they deported or killed? I am not an expert on Alphatia (he he he), so Alphaphiles, we know you're there, step out!!! OLTECS Apart the issues where Neathar blood is mixed with them, Oltecs basically have as descendants: Jen on western Skothar, Azcans and Atruaghin on Brun. Isn't it? There are many other issues, but before coming to them we should solve those that I presented above. I will not stop this debate until we have found a coherent way to explain everything!!!! Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:06:44 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Blackmoor maps available --- Thibault Sarlat wrote: > i can't get acces to it ... > is there another way? Strange! Did anyone else experience any problems with accessing my site? http://www.geocities.com/havardfaa/ should take you to the (very uninteresting) index page (now available). The maps themselves can be accessed directly at: http://www.geocities.com/havardfaa/Skothar2.JPG and: http://www.geocities.com/havardfaa/Blackmoor2.JPG Let me know if you still have problems accessing the site and I will try and fix it! Thanks, Håvard ______________________________________________________ Se den nye Yahoo! Mail på http://no.yahoo.com/ Nytt design, enklere å bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:10:06 EDT From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: I'm Back...I think <<> I would really dread having to re-draw all those on Paintbrush. You ready for > that game today? Your Tigers are 10 pt underdogs. It should be a good game. > Good game as in no parking on campus for 24 hours and rowdy drunk people littering my lawn, oh yeah, I got the fire hose out. I'm ready. :)>> Them Tigers should have won that game. Either way, neither the Georgia nor Clemson fanbase at work has been bragging too much. As for bad gameday experiences...it could be worse. Those folks down in Columbia SC tend to tear apart the stadium whenever they win. Anyway, no slams against the Clemson faithful. It's a great campus. I used to be up that way a good deal. I was even recruited to play ball there at one time...before I blew out my shoulder. However, I am not a Clemson fan. I tend to favor Florida State. My father is a FSU fan and I was scouted by them at one point. Regardless, I am a football fan and can respect a good game of football no matter the participating teams. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:12:10 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Blackmoor Web Address? --- Darth Darknerd skrev: > What is the web address. I type it in now, and I > get > a gold course. http://www.geocities.com/havardfaa/blackmoor.html should do it for you :) Håvard ______________________________________________________ Se den nye Yahoo! Mail på http://no.yahoo.com/ Nytt design, enklere å bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:20:08 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems --- la Volpe wrote: > Some civilizations SHOULD have been destroyed, I > think. Of Blackmoor, nothing should remain. However, > Thonia is an example of a kingdom that survived the > Rain of Fire and is still existing...I think that > maybe some borderline community could have survived > (e.g. Peshwans according to Andrew). The name Thonia lives on, but are there any other relations between the current kingdom and the anicent empire? Im assuming that you're referring to fan based material here, got an URL? OTOH, what are the relations between ancient and modern day Egypt...? :) > I agree that they were wiped out of Blackmoor. In my > Skothar timeline (not released, it's more a "work in > progress" reference for my Skothar material) the > Afridhi would have ended in the eastern parts of > Skothar, north of the Tanagoro lands. Some Afridhi > descended populations would still exist (e.g. > Nentsun > has some Afridhi ancestry). I won't be the first to object for existing remmants of any of the Blackmoor cultures as long as there is a sort of explaination for it. Just keep the relevant problems in mind. The culture must have avoided being assimilated to Blackmoor (Hight tech) AND survived the Rain of Fire or reverted to old ways after surviving that cataclysm. Anything else should be considered Immortal intervention ;) Håvard ______________________________________________________ Se den nye Yahoo! Mail på http://no.yahoo.com/ Nytt design, enklere å bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:27:01 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Some ethnography - A first glance (long) la Volpe wrote: > > 1) settle Traladara > 2) settle Darokin > 3) settle Zuyevo > 4) settle regions of the Great Hule > 5) found Milenia Uhm, they first settled Traladara and Southern Darokin. There they probably absorbed the small Taymoran communities. At the height of the Traldar age, there were probably no more than 300.000 Traldars in both Traladara and Southern Darokin. >> From this first base, they went out to found Milenia. Milenia grew for centuries, without finding any serious opposition in Davania. The Milenians are also likely to have merged with local Neathar tribes (close relatives of the Kerendans). Later, other Traladarans settled regions of the Savage Coast. Their numbers in the Western Gulf of Hule were quite low, so there are now little traces of Traladaran blood in the Guardianos. In the Eastern Gulf of Hule, There are perhaps some 100-150.000 people, with a considerable number of non-Traladaran immigrants (demihumans, Lupins, Yavi, Thyatians, Minrothaddans, Huleans). So we have some 100.000 people in 560 years, which might be 20 generations. Assuming there were 1.000 Traladarans in the original migration, the population should have increased by 100 times in 20 generations. We can compute the average increment per generation, which should be around 1.3, which is much, but not impossible. If the were more original immigrants, then the rate would lower, and they would account for the people who colonized Almarron and the Hulean regions (considering that they conquered and absorbed the natives). One could do the same for Milenia, of course. Zuyevo is the real problem. It is simply too big and too remote for the Traladaran to settle/conquer in less than 500 years, and without many resources. But IMO Zuyevans should not be Traladarans anyway. > OLTECS > Apart the issues where Neathar blood is mixed with > them, Oltecs basically have as descendants: Jen on > western Skothar, Azcans and Atruaghin on Brun. Isn't > it? Also the natives of the Savage Coast are at Oltecs (mixed with whatever came later, Traladarans and Thyatians). BTW, there is at least one other major human group, the Huleans, in the post-GRoF Mystara. They are clearly not belonging to any of the three major peoples, and don't seem to be the result of a mix of the three. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:40:40 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems --- Mischa Gelman : Here are some quick descriptions - > > Blackmoor What do Blackmoorians/Thonians look like? Im assuming your average fantasy European/American look? > The Duchy of the Peaks - A libertine land in the > mountains NW of Blackmoor > and N of the Duchy of Ten. A small country where > basically anything goes > (heck, the leader is a former exotic dancer). How far should this libertine trend be taken? Do they simply love freedom or are they DeSade Orgy types? > THe Duchy of Ten Are they historically people from Thonia? > The Afridhi Again im interested in physical descriptions. Any real-world paralells for this culture? > Orcs of the Black Hand Ofcourse, they were really Beastmen.... Even though I wasnt the one who asked for it, this summary was really useful. I put it on the BM website. Hope you dont mind. :) Håvard ______________________________________________________ Se den nye Yahoo! Mail på http://no.yahoo.com/ Nytt design, enklere å bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:47:45 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Blackmoor maps available --- Giampaolo Agosta : > These maps are: > 1) very useful: at least I now have a better idea of > where Blackmoor and > Thonia were; > 2) better than anything a could draw myself ;) Thanks! The main aim was to give myself (and you guys) some idea of all these places and names. The maps are probably quite inacurate but should be useful for determining where things are in relation to eachother. Håvard ______________________________________________________ Se den nye Yahoo! Mail på http://no.yahoo.com/ Nytt design, enklere å bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 16:20:16 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems Havard Faanes wrote: > >> Blackmoor > > What do Blackmoorians/Thonians look like? Im assuming > your average fantasy European/American look? Fair skinned & dark haired, probably, with some latitude. >> The Duchy of Ten > > Are they historically people from Thonia? >> From the DA series, it seems the Duchy includes large slave powered colonies. Slaves seems come from (or at least through) Thonia. >> The Afridhi > > Again im interested in physical descriptions. Any > real-world paralells for this culture? Mah, perhaps Mongolians. Tuska Rusa, their high priestess, is said to have "auburn locks". Nothing more for a physical description. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 08:28:20 -0700 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Freeport city of adventure Well, as a whole, I prefer the book to the modules. Why? Well, I was the = one that converted the rock of Bral to a land city and called it Freeport. = Since then, my players have made it their home city, and with all the = intrigue in it I must say I really like it. Bral is rather sparse, but = once I combined it with Freeport I now have my hands full of competing = gangs and multiple underworld organizations which all compete with one = another. My Bral?Freeport now has 9 street gangs and five underworld = organizations. I also went and bought Bluffside. And get this, Bluffside = has two adventure hooks for each building. Along with the characters who = live or work there. Needless to say, my Freeport is going to be very busy, = of course it already is since the Sword and Crown conference Drac is = hosting has the city bursting with dignitaries. Many nobles from the Five = Shire, Glantri, and Karameikos as well as Minrothad are yet to arrive, In = the meantime their is more than enough intrigue in the city now, sometimes = I don't know what to mention first! So many sources...so much to do. Sorry = this turned out rather lengthy. I would give Freeport a five star rating. = Later! JK Wolf PS: Has anyone seen the mega dungeon on the WOTC site? So far they have = only done 5 of the 15 panels for it. I'm also going to place this under = Freeport. If the party discovers it, it will explain where all the = visiting drow (500 of em) are staying.=20 >>> strawberry.jamm@VERIZON.NET 08/31/02 12:13PM >>> > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On > Behalf Of Havard Faanes > > --- Joe Kelly wrote: > > > Don't know if anyone is interested but the Freeport > > City of Adventure module has been out for a bit, and > > I quite like it. Anyone else pick this up? > > Hey, > I also picked up that one, but I have only flipped > through it yet. It seems decent enough, although the > most useful info has already been mentioned in the > Freeport Adventure Modules, which by the way are > excellent. Somebody (Jenni?) made a timeline for > fitting Freeport into Ierendi and I thinking about > using that idea myself if one of my current campaigns > end any time soon. Yep, that 'twas me who inserted Freeport into Ierendi. :-) I haven't picked up the "Freeport: City of Adventure" accessory myself (I haven't picked up a lot of the D&D stuff I've been wanting -- cash flow issues :-P) But, after a skim-through, you figure the most useful stuff is already in the adventure modules? Does that include "Hell in Freeport" or just the three module series, "Death ...", "Terror ..." and "Madness in Freeport"? How about you, Joe -- how would you compare the accessory as a whole vs. the various modules? Jenni -- Jenni A.M. Merrifield (strawberry @ jamm.com) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons.... for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp=20 The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/=20 To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM=20 with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 17:53:00 +0200 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: Blackmoor maps available thanks, the url worked fine good job!! Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st Join me at:thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr;clenarius@hotmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Havard Faanes" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Blackmoor maps available > --- Thibault Sarlat > wrote: > > > i can't get acces to it ... > > is there another way? > > Strange! Did anyone else experience any problems with > accessing my site? > > http://www.geocities.com/havardfaa/ should take you to > the (very uninteresting) index page (now available). > > > The maps themselves can be accessed directly at: > http://www.geocities.com/havardfaa/Skothar2.JPG > and: > http://www.geocities.com/havardfaa/Blackmoor2.JPG > > Let me know if you still have problems accessing the > site and I will try and fix it! > > Thanks, > Håvard > > > ______________________________________________________ > Se den nye Yahoo! Mail på http://no.yahoo.com/ > Nytt design, enklere å bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 17:23:03 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Original Alphatian Population la Volpe wrote: > > Hello! > Any clue to which were the original Alphatians??? Akin to the Yanifey, i.e. a Neathar mix with something else like Lhomarrian or whoever were the ancestors of Thonians? -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:33:40 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Some ethnography - A first glance (long) Agathokles wrote: > BTW, there is at least one other major human group, the Huleans, in the > post-GRoF Mystara. They are clearly not belonging to any of the three > major peoples, and don't seem to be the result of a mix of the three. IIRC, somewhere (Dragon? Red Steel boxed set?) it was mentioned that the Huleans were of mixed Neathar and Oltec stock. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:09:54 +1200 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: History of the Dwarven Race > Well, it's not sooo convincing, I know, but to me it > made more sense than the "dwarves storm the > Modrigswerg fortress then the race dies out and is > reformed by Kagyar" (by the way, too similar to > "lizard men storm the Makai villages then the race > dies out and is reformed by Ka"). I suppose that both > ideas could be used if someone is able to work them > around properly. Maybe Kagyar has some dwarves storm > the Modrigswerg fortress, kill most of his followers, > then he goes to Loki and says "ok, let's have a talk > now...". Isn't that what immortals do?!? *grin* But seriously, if there was some kind of war it would be a good justification for the transplanting of some dwarves to the hollow world while keeping the others on the surface. Those that died go to the hollow world, while the others go to rockhome. War also could be the reason why the rulers are changed. The good dwarven clans could have insisted that the clan leaders of morisgwerg step down from power for dabbleing in the dark arts. But war breaks out when they refuse, but it is not fully clear which morisgwerg support them and which don't so the leaders are exicuted and clan ties cut. The morisgwerg are removed from dwarven records and other dwarves begin calling them the rotten dwarves. They become reclusive after the war, as some in-fighting an the clan continues even after the war as they all blame each other and no-one is really sure who to trust. It could be a short but bloody war, and from the dead Garal creates the Koglor colony in the HW. But knowing that the race is dying he talks to Kagyar and they decide that the race also needs to be reformed. Loki independantly alters the memorys of the moriswerg so that they will have a hatred of Kagyars new dwarves, as they did of the other dwarves after the war. The good dwarven clans homes are re-located so that there is no trace of the original home as all the halls the dwarves had built are taken to rockhome or the HW by Garal and Kagyar. (I'm just throwing some ideas around) > Yes, the second part of the history is very "basic". I > hope to write some "appendix" history of the various > clans/races, sometime in the future. Anyway, Denwarf's > history is detailed very well in GAZ6, HWR and PWA; > for those who don't have these supplements, I'll do a > writeup for him sometime in the future (promises! just > promises! like every skilled Thyatian politician...) That is a valid point. I just felt it sounded like Denwarf started as a golem in your timeline, but the idea I was going with was he became a golem (turned himself into one). It just puts a little more of a spin on early dwarves. > Thanks very much, for your input that helped our work > and for your interest! no problem. Chris. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 01:32:12 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems > Here are some quick descriptions - > > Blackmoor > What do Blackmoorians/Thonians look like? Im assuming > your average fantasy European/American look? IMO neathar (fair skinned, but not too much, not as the Skandarian) but Thonians should be heavily mixed with oltecs and tanagoro (and with a large oltec-tanagoro slave population), so a little darker of complexion than the blackmoorians... > > The Duchy of the Peaks - A libertine land in the > How far should this libertine trend be taken? Do they > simply love freedom or are they DeSade Orgy types? IMC i made them more the DeSade Orgy types, but only the nobility, who ruled over a large slave population... was one of our funniest adventures, 'cause the PCs went to the Duchy pretending to be lazy nobles and the halfling pc played as their bufoon (or maybe in english is joker?) : - ) > > The Afridhi > Again im interested in physical descriptions. Any > real-world paralells for this culture? I used for inspiration the RW early "Turkish" culture... that anyway was an offspring of mongolian hordes (as the culture of Tamerlan, ruler of Samarcanda in the XIV century and his people...). Their elite army unity (now i don't recall their name..) somehow remembered me of the (XVI century) Turkish mamelucchi (i don't know how that is spelled in english...) even if they were quite a different thing... (being the mamelucchi christian children taken as slaves and then educated to be elite soldiers while the Afridhi elite unity was more a matriarcal religious society...) > > Orcs of the Black Hand > Ofcourse, they were really Beastmen.... Sure : - ) Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 02:08:07 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Some ethnography - A first glance (long) From: "la Volpe" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 2:30 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] Some ethnography - A first glance (long) > However, the origin of > the Traldar race and their descendants is a very > problematic issue that we must resolve. I read somewhere in uncanon material that they were a Neathar people (probably descended from the Neathar kingdoms of Brun of Blackmoorian times) that later became part of the Nithian empire, and even later went to Traladara, where i think they merged with a taymoran descended people... later they migrated to Darokin, Milenia, Savage Coast. Anyway i don't think that Hule and Zuyevo are traladaran-related, but probably traldars are Zuyevo and Hule related... let's explain.. there were slavic-like neathar in the central region of Brun during Blackmoorian times: after the Great Rain of Fire some went east and joined dwarves and later Nithia (those are the traldars), while others remained in central Brun and later founded Zuyevo and Hule and nearby lands (here often mixed with oltecs and azcans...) > What are the other Neathar descended nations? > According to the HWR, Ethengar and Ylari have some > Neathar blood in them, haven't they? Are they mixed > with the Oltecs? And what about Sindh? I think ethengarian could be a population of mixed neathar-oltecs people from Skothar, while Ylari (and nithians before them) should be the descendant of a blackmoorian-oltec colony on the eastern coast of Brun, later mixed with taymorans too (and taymorans had probably the same blackmoorian-oltecs origin...) Sind was sure an Oltec territory, but after the Great Rain of Fire neathar peoples of central Brun came to the nation, again forming a mixed oltecs-neathar population... Nowadays even if many peoples on Brun and Skothar have oltecs blood, the only "pure" oltec people are the Children of Atruaghin... (and they should be azcan descended in thruth... but azcan were offsprings of oltecs...) Anyway i think Jennites and Makai quite "pure" oltecs, even if a little mixed with neathars.... > ALPHATIA > Another issue to solve is the original population of > Alphatia. Were they Jen? Were they Antalians? Were > they Dunael? Is there any trace left in the Alphatian > blood or were they deported or killed? I am not an > expert on Alphatia (he he he), so Alphaphiles, we know > you're there, step out!!! I think the original population of Alphatia should be Yanifey, a Llhomarrian people according to uncanon material (of Geoff). They were assimilated in the alphatian population, even if some of them survive to present days in Qeodhar, Yanifey and in the northern kingdoms of Alphatia (you can find some material of Geoff in the vault about this). AFAIK Yanifey were black haired fair skinned people....BTW i think those people should have inhabited Bellisaria too, in the past... i think it's strange that Bellisaria (nearly a continent!) was without inhabitants before the coming of Alphatian colonists... and maybe Minaeans are a population of mixed Yanifey-Tanagoro... ? I don't think there were Dunael in Alphatia anyway... according to the original uncanon material by James Mishler Dunael came to the Isle of Dawn from Brun, and they were Neathar... bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 20:05:10 -0500 From: Mischa Gelman Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, [iso-8859-1] Havard Faanes wrote: > > Blackmoor > > What do Blackmoorians/Thonians look like? Im assuming > your average fantasy European/American look? That's the impression from the descriptions and pictures in DA1-4. Hair colors range widely but everyone seems to be a paleface. For that matter, the Peshwah horseman described is "a short, bandy-legged, sunscorched little man with skin like fine old leater and eyes like the blackest pits of hell." Sounds more Middle Eastern than Mongol to me though the culture matches the Ethengarians well. I think this description does fit my Jennite theories though. > > The Duchy of the Peaks - A libertine land in the > > mountains NW of Blackmoor > > and N of the Duchy of Ten. A small country where > > basically anything goes > > (heck, the leader is a former exotic dancer). > > How far should this libertine trend be taken? Do they > simply love freedom or are they DeSade Orgy types? "[T]he duchy is always in need of gold to fund the public spectacles beloved of its decadent populace." "Sonia continues the policies of her husband and his forebears. Domestically, these consist of providing the people with wide latitude for both financial gain and exotic pleasure while only mildly oppressing them. Her foreign policy consists solely of forging the most tangled possible series of alliances embodied in pacts where wording is so vague as to allow the duchess to nullify any of thjem at any time." According to DA4, it "counted its wealth in diamonds and slaves." Sounds far more orgy-oriented than freedom-loving (heck, it is called mildly oppressing and slavery is rampant.) > > THe Duchy of Ten > Are they historically people from Thonia? Historically they were from the Duchy of the Peaks, actually, though they certainly are different in social behaviors. They aren't described much physically as far as I can tell. The only character to be detailed in depth is a "jolly little man with a bushy, honey-colored beard framing a broad smiling face from out of which peer a pair of shrewd sea-green eyes." > > The Afridhi > Again im interested in physical descriptions. Any > real-world paralells for this culture? I can't think fo too many matriarchical/female-dominated societies, sorry. The clothing for women is detailed - "Baggy pantaloons, warm felt boots, collarless double-breasted blouse and coat of curly lamb-skin." The male clothing seems fairly similar. "Like most Afridhi, Sher is a short, square-bodied man with curly black hair and a long beard." > > Orcs of the Black Hand > Ofcourse, they were really Beastmen.... I'm sure we've gone over this before (my memory has trouble after 7 years of debate), but did we ever find a way to reconcile the Beastman-Orc/Ogre issue? If we never did arrive at a conclusion, perhaps some Beastmen evolved/stabilized bloodlines before the cataclysm? > summary was really useful. I put it on the BM website. > Hope you dont mind. :) Fine by me. - Mischa You are evading the point. - George Bernard Shaw Points are made to evade. Consider the history of the rapier. - G.K. Chesterton ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 03:02:31 +0200 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Heldanic Knight grip on Norwold Hello everyone i would like to hear your opinions about the exact regions of norwold under the grip of the HK. I know that Oceandsend has been taken again and that Wolkenburg is a pain in the ass of the HK in this region, yet i cannot see a way for so few heldanic soldier to affirm their power over such a vast stretch of land. any idea??? Tomorow, I shall release the map i have done so far on my site. It depicts most of Norwold in 8 miles per hex, with the domains boundaries... Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st Join me at:thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr;clenarius@hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 20:08:05 -0500 From: Mischa Gelman Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems On Wed, 4 Sep 2002, Francesco Defferrari wrote: > Thonians should be heavily mixed with oltecs and tanagoro (and with a large > oltec-tanagoro slave population), so a little darker of complexion than the Do you assume that the slave population also contains folks from other lands or are these two distant cultures the primary contributors? > IMC i made them more the DeSade Orgy types, but only the nobility, who ruled > over a large slave population That sounds fairly appropriate, given the vast disparities of wealth evident in the Duchy of the Peaks. - Mischa You are evading the point. - George Bernard Shaw Points are made to evade. Consider the history of the rapier. - G.K. Chesterton ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 2 Sep 2002 to 3 Sep 2002 (#2002-230) **************************************************************