Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 3 Sep 2002 to 4 Sep 2002 (#2002-231) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 05/09/2002, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 38 messages totalling 1737 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. History of the Dwarven Race (8) 2. Blackmoor Problems (10) 3. Some Ethnography - a second look (2) 4. Ethnography - some updates (5) 5. Blackmoor maps available (3) 6. Isle of Dawn : who's in charge? 7. Etnography - Wendar and Denagoth 8. Etnography - Zuyevo & Antalians (2) 9. Hello from Zeitgeist Games (2) 10. Anyone buy Bluffside? 11. Heldanic Knight grip on Norwold 12. [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: Mystaran Ethnology] 13. I forgot one Proto-Antalian group ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:15:03 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: History of the Dwarven Race > > But seriously, if there was some kind of war it > would be a good justification > for the transplanting of some dwarves to the hollow > world while keeping the > others on the surface. Those that died go to the > hollow world, while the others > go to rockhome. Well, consider that the surviving dwarves in the Known World were 500, at the time of re-forging, so there is not really a room for war in that sense. If there was a war, this happened some time before, at least. Anyway I changed canon info from 500 to 5'000 dwarves, because in 400 years they become 125'000 and I really find this hard to believe (from 500 to 125'000 in 400 years? ok, dwarves are long lived, but having 30 sons per dwarf female is too much for me to believe...). > The good dwarven clans homes are re-located so that > there is no trace of the > original home as all the halls the dwarves had built > are taken to rockhome or > the HW by Garal and Kagyar. Well, yes, that's true: what happened to the original dwarven halls? Any clue, anybody (a part from this idea, I mean...). Could it be that somewhere there still are ancient dwarven halls? > That is a valid point. I just felt it sounded like > Denwarf started as a golem > in your timeline, but the idea I was going with was > he became a golem (turned > himself into one). It just puts a little more of a > spin on early dwarves. This is really a cool idea...maybe Denwarf was the first of the re-forged? Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:22:13 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems > I'm sure we've gone over this before (my memory has > trouble after 7 years > of debate), but did we ever find a way to reconcile > the Beastman-Orc/Ogre > issue? If we never did arrive at a conclusion, > perhaps some Beastmen > evolved/stabilized bloodlines before the cataclysm? Personally I see no problem with this...after all, if we assume that all the stabilized races were wiped out by the Great Rain of Fire everything remains consistent! Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:18:00 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Some Ethnography - a second look Ok, so let's begin a little compiling of infos found on various places. I have written a short reference, with a list of open problems below each group. 1.NEATHAR The Neathar were fair skinned people. A. Pure Neathar descended people are: 1.1 ---> Proto ----> Dunael (Isle of Dawn) 1.1.1 Dunael ----> Thratian(Hinterlands) 1.1.2 Proto-Dunael are similar to Celts. Dunael and Thratians are related, the first being the original population of the Isle of Dawn, the second of the Hinterlands. QUESTION 1: Do you know of other Dunael related people? 1.2 ---> Proto Antalians ----> Antalians 1.2.1 ----> Thantalians 1.2.2 ----> Trantalians 1.2.3 1.2.1 Antalians speak a German Indoeuropean language. They are progenitors of the Heldannic, Norwold-Antalian, Qeodhar-Antalian and Northman populations. Among the Antalians was the Hattian tribe, that was later conquered by the Nithians and followed the fate of the Thantalian tribes. The Hattians now speak Thyatian, but have Antalian-sounding names. QUESTION 2: Do the Antalian descended people speak the same Heldannic language? QUESTION 3: What about the barbarian tribes that live in Norwold? (Barkal the Red's tribe and the others that hold the Clan meeting). Are they Heldannic in origin too? And if they are, do they speak the same tongue too? 1.2.2 Thantalians are related to Antalians in the same way that Italics were related to Germans (according to some RW scholars' theories). The only survivors of the Nithian invasion were the Thyatian and Kerendan tribes, that were sent south to Davania with the Hattians (an Antalian tribe). Here they had cultural exchanges with the Milenians. As soon as the Thyatians begun to build cities and become a little more rich, then the Milenians decided to conquer them. All those that could fled did, arriving in Thyatis and founding later the Thyatian Empire. Before this, some Thyatians settled Darokin and mixed with the Traldar population there; much later, Thyatians of the Imperial age will settle Ierendi, Karameikos and the Isle of Dawn, and eventually the Savage Coast (to form the Espan and Vilaverdan nations). NOTE 1: The Espa and Vilaverdans may have some Yavi, Traldar and Oltec blood, but I assume that they are mostly of Thyatian ethnicity and I include them here. Thyatians \--------> Espa & Vilaverdans 1.2.3 Trantalians may be assimilated to the Proto-Slavic culture. Trantalians settled the western part of the mountains south of Heldann, occupying most of what is now Darokin. The easternmost Trantalian tribe were the Traldar of the Selenica area, conquered by Nithia. Later the Traldar clan migrated to the lands of what is now Karameikos, where they lost most of their Nithian knowledge. Contact with their less cultured brethren from north-west resulted in the re-founding of a "common" culture; with Nithia's demise, the Traldar nation went from the Darokin regions of Selenica to Mirros and the Sea of Dawn. The decadence of Traldar resulted in the separation of the two groups, because humanoids stepped in to claim the passes and roads that led from the area of Penhaligon to Selenica. The Traldar and Trantalians in Darokin were later joined by Thyatian settlers from south-east and became the Daro people. The southern Traldar became the Traladarians. A group migrated and became the Milenians. Later, when the Milenian culture declined, a migration of Milenians left the Empire (around BC 100) and joined the Tarystian ethnicity to become the Minaeans that curently inhabit the south-western Skotharian lands. NOTE 2: I am reading through various fan based material to see what I can come up for the other Traladarian influences. NOTE 3: I don't know very well the Savage Coast nations. Are the Slag a Traldar race? Old Trantalians ----> Trantalians --- mix with ----> Traldar --- Thyatians and become the Daros Traldar ----> Traladarians ----> Milenians \-->Minaeans 1.3 ----> Skandaharians ------->Old Thonians ----> Thonians ----> Blackmoor Skandaharians are an old culture that is now dead. The last Skandaharian pirates were completely assimilated by Blackmoor. Thonians were an imperialistic advanced race descended by Skandaharians. The Blackmoor Empire was founded from a Thonian indipendent kingdom, that took profit of the decadence of the Thonian Empire. Blackmoor covered most of central Skothar. To the north of Blackmoor, a hardy branch of traditionalist Thonians that refused technology survived as a pitiful semi-indipendent region of the Empire. These became the ancestors of current Thonians. NOTE 4: This is a try. If we really have few Canon info, my idea is good as that of anybody else. Do you feel it could go? I know at least that Blackmoor descended from Thonia, this is Canon. NOTE 5: I will check what the Net Almanac says about Thonians, to see if what Francesco proposed could fit: I doubt that the Tanagoro could have had any influence, I will check for possible Jennites mingling with the Old Thonians. Anyway I prefer to use what was said in the Almanac, to have more coherency of this work with that of others. B. Mixed Neathar Races are: Traldar --------| Trantalians ----|-----> Daros Thyatians ------| Daros are a Neathar mixed race. Considering the strong influence the Thyatian Empire have had on the Known World, now they speak a Thyatian dialect, although influenced by Trantalian and Thyatian languages. NOTE 6: I will deal later with the Mixed Neathar/Other. NOTE 7: Did I forget someone? ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:35:07 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mischa Gelman" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 3:08 AM > Do you assume that the slave population also contains folks from other > lands or are these two distant cultures the primary contributors? well, according to canon and uncanon sources in blackmoorian times Skothar was inhabited by Neathar in the north, Tanagoro in the south and an Oltec colony in the west... so i assume that those three should be the human races of Thonia... maybe the empire had a little elves, halfling and dwarves population too, but they should not be slaves... anyway probably the slave population should include a large number of Yanifey too, because for uncanon sources Yanifey were the main population of south western Skothar (present day Minaea) and "alphatian" isles territories... maybe thonians himself could be a mixed neathar-yanifey population.... Bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:01:12 +1200 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: History of the Dwarven Race > Well, consider that the surviving dwarves in the Known > World were 500, at the time of re-forging, so there is > not really a room for war in that sense. If there was > a war, this happened some time before, at least. > Anyway I changed canon info from 500 to 5'000 dwarves, > because in 400 years they become 125'000 and I really > find this hard to believe (from 500 to 125'000 in 400 > years? ok, dwarves are long lived, but having 30 sons > per dwarf female is too much for me to believe...). That few? I didn't realise. Perhaps war is why there is so few at the time of re-forging otherwise Kagyar may have taken more. But perhaps not. I agree with your logic though, 500 - 125,000 is a lot. > Well, yes, that's true: what happened to the original > dwarven halls? Any clue, anybody (a part from this > idea, I mean...). Could it be that somewhere there > still are ancient dwarven halls? Well I had also considered that the moriswerg could have taken gaurdianship of them, but not actually know they were once built by others. That is why they are so rich. > This is really a cool idea...maybe Denwarf was the > first of the re-forged? Quoting Harvard: Then Denwarf, “He Who Is Born of Rock”, came to the Dwarves of Rockhome. He was Kagyar’s apprentice, the perfect dwarf, and Denwarf became the first Dwarven King. Denwarf ruled long and wisely. But even dwarves grow old, and the Dwarf Master felt that his body was weakening after long years of peace and prosperity under his rule. He went into the forge, and made himself a new body of rock and steel, so that he could guide his people for coming centuries aswell. But Kagyar spoke to him then and said: “Are you not happy with the body that I have given you? Seek you to improve on the work of your Master?” And Denwarf answered: “forgive me lord, for it is not arrogance that has lead me to do this work. But is it not an apprentice’s task to learn from his master?” Denwarf answered: “Very well. You will have this new-forged body, but for now you must leave Dengaria, the Rockhome, and allow younger dwarves to rule themselves. I will let you return to the Dwarves when it is once again need for you among them.” Denwarf had seven retainers; these became the Dwarven Lords, founders of the greater clans. Chris. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:11:17 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Some Ethnography - a second look la Volpe wrote: > > 1.1 ---> Proto ----> Dunael (Isle of Dawn) 1.1.1 > Dunael ----> Thratian(Hinterlands) 1.1.2 > QUESTION 1: Do you know of other Dunael related > people? ----> Robrennian 1.1.3 > 1.2 ---> Proto > Antalians ----> Antalians 1.2.1 > ----> Thantalians 1.2.2 > ----> Trantalians 1.2.3 > > QUESTION 2: Do the Antalian descended people speak > the same Heldannic language? I suppose they would speak languages that are approximately as different as the modern languages of Sweden, Norway, Denmark, etc. > QUESTION 3: What about the barbarian tribes that > live in Norwold? (Barkal the Red's tribe and the > others that hold the Clan meeting). Are they Heldannic > in origin too? And if they are, do they speak the same > tongue too? IMO, they are related to the Heldanners, and speak a dialect of their language. Also, the barbarians from NW-Wastelands and the people of Eusdria also speak similar languages and are basically Antalians. > 1.2.2 > Thantalians are related to Antalians in the same way > that Italics were related to Germans (according to > some RW scholars' theories). The only survivors of the > Nithian invasion were the Thyatian and Kerendan > tribes, that were sent south to Davania with the > Hattians (an Antalian tribe). Here they had cultural > exchanges with the Milenians. As soon as the Thyatians > begun to build cities and become a little more rich, > then the Milenians decided to conquer them. All those > that could fled did, arriving in Thyatis and founding > later the Thyatian Empire. IMO: they also mixed with the Milenians a lot, which would justify the Byzanthine names of Thyatians and Kerendans, and especially their more "mediterranean" looks. > NOTE 1: The Espa and Vilaverdans may have some > Yavi, Traldar and Oltec blood, but I assume that they > are mostly of Thyatian ethnicity and I include them > here. Yes, at least the ruling classes. > NOTE 3: I don't know very well the Savage Coast > nations. Are the Slag a Traldar race? The people of the City State are Traladarans (as opposed to generic Traladar or Milenians). "Slag" is just the name of the trade tongue (Thyatian-based patois) used along the Savage Coast. > NOTE 4: This is a try. If we really have few Canon > info, my idea is good as that of anybody else. Do you > feel it could go? I know at least that Blackmoor > descended from Thonia, this is Canon. Yes, but the Skandaharians don't seem to match as the ancestors of Thonians. They could be related to the Neathar, though. > NOTE 7: Did I forget someone? Only the Eusdrian and Robrennian, as far as canon nations go. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:51:12 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: History of the Dwarven Race --- la Volpe wrote: > This is really a cool idea...maybe Denwarf was the > first of the re-forged? I postulated something like this in an article I posted a few months back. The article also included some ideas about Golem bodyparts inspired by Cyberware.... Håvard ______________________________________________________ Se den nye Yahoo! Mail på http://no.yahoo.com/ Nytt design, enklere å bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:58:01 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: History of the Dwarven Race --- Chris Furneaux : > > This is really a cool idea...maybe Denwarf was the > > first of the re-forged? > > Quoting Harvard: > Then Denwarf, “He Who Is Born of Rock”, came to the > Dwarves of Rockhome. He was Kagyar’s apprentice, the > perfect dwarf, and Denwarf became the first Dwarven > King. Denwarf ruled long and wisely. But even > dwarves > grow old, and the Dwarf Master felt that his body > was > weakening after long years of peace and prosperity > under his rule. He went into the forge, and made > himself a new body of rock and steel, so that he > could > guide his people for coming centuries aswell. But > Kagyar spoke to him then and said: “Are you not > happy > with the body that I have given you? Seek you to > improve on the work of your Master?” And Denwarf > answered: “forgive me lord, for it is not arrogance > that has lead me to do this work. But is it not an > apprentice’s task to learn from his master?” Denwarf > answered: “Very well. You will have this new-forged > body, but for now you must leave Dengaria, the > Rockhome, and allow younger dwarves to rule > themselves. I will let you return to the Dwarves > when > it is once again need for you among them.” Denwarf > had > seven retainers; these became the Dwarven Lords, > founders of the greater clans. Ah, thanks Chris. I was looking for that article myself, but I couldnt find it. When I wrote that stuff I didnt have the Rockhome gaz around, but I also wanted to include something about the Dwarven Lords, each with a name similar to one of the major clans. For instance, "Torkrest" would be one of these Founding Fathers as it were. Ofcourse, these dwarves might only be mythical and not real historical figures.. Just an idea. By the way great work with the History Giulio, I especially liked the name Morkwarf, lets keep it! :) Håvard ______________________________________________________ Se den nye Yahoo! Mail på http://no.yahoo.com/ Nytt design, enklere å bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:12:44 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: History of the Dwarven Race > By the way great work with the History Giulio, I > especially liked the name Morkwarf, lets keep it! :) > > Håvard I extend the congratulations to my Ostlander friend, Jacob, that co-wrote the History with me. Maybe we'll have some more on dwarves taking in account those legends of the dwarven race...8-) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:38:05 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Ethnography - some updates I have seen Agathokles' comments and I have taken a look at the Doulakki culture and decided to make this small change to the Trantalian history: 1.2.3 Trantalians may be assimilated to the Proto-Slavic culture. Trantalians settled the western part of the mountains south of Heldann, occupying most of what is now Darokin. Before the Nithian civilization rose, they also settled what now is western Ylaruam, and some of the regions now known as Kerendas. The Trantalians evolved into the Doulakki that founded Akorros and Athenos in Darokin, and Ekto and Trikelios in the Isle of Dawn. A Doulakkian tribe in Nithia/Ylaruam founded the Lost City of Cynidicea, and they became the Cynidiceans albinos. The easternmost Trantalian tribe were the Traldar of the Selenica area, conquered by Nithia. Later the Traldar clan migrated to the lands of what is now Karameikos, where they lost most of their Nithian knowledge. Contact with their less cultured brethren from north-west resulted in the re-founding of a "common" culture; with Nithia's demise, the Traldar nation went from the Darokin regions of Selenica to Mirros and the Sea of Dawn. The decadence of Traldar resulted in the separation of the two groups, because humanoids stepped in to claim the passes and roads that led from the area of Penhaligon to Selenica. The Traldar and Doulakki in Darokin were later joined by Thyatian settlers from south-east and became the Daro people. The southern Traldar became the Traladarians that now live in Karameikos, although some of them migrated westward to become the Traladarans of the City States. A group migrated and became the Milenians. Later, when the Milenian culture declined, a migration of Milenians left the Empire (around BC 100) and joined the Tarystian ethnicity to become the Minaeans that curently inhabit the south-western Skotharian lands. Trantalians---->Doulakki ---| mix with Thyatians and ----> Traldar ---| become the Daros ----> Traladarans ----> Milenians ----> City State Traladarans Moreover, here are some thoughts on other Neathar groups. SKANDAHARIANS Maybe we could assume that the Skandaharians and the Yanifey are a mixed Neathar/Lhomarrian race. THONIA & BLACKMOOR James suggested that Antalians were descendants of Thonia. I don't know what you think. Maybe they could be another branch of descendants of the Proto-Antalian group, but I don't think that we should make Antalians directly descend from Thonia; at most we could make them related in this way. Thonia as described in the Almanac should be the only surviving true Thonian kingdom. Jen or Tanagoro blood in the Thonians should be dismissed basing this on the few fan-based material appeared until now - as I said before, if an idea is reasonable and appeared in fan-material it would be better to change it the least. However, considering how big Skothar is, there is room for Thonian/Jennite tribes or cities or kingdoms in the Steppes of Jen. So my idea would be to put Thonians as descendants of Proto-Antalians, along with Antalians, Trantalians and the Thy/Ker group. OTHERS How would Eusdrian be related to Antalians? What are these "northwestern tribes" you are talking about? Where do they appear in canon or fan-based material? Last but not least: I will include Robrennians in the Dunael people. ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:39:59 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Blackmoor maps available --- Thibault Sarlat skrev: > thanks, the url worked fine > > good job!! Thanks! I am honored to have my works recognized by the master cartographer of them all. :) Håvard ______________________________________________________ Se den nye Yahoo! Mail på http://no.yahoo.com/ Nytt design, enklere å bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:48:00 +0200 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Isle of Dawn : who's in charge? I would like to know who is in charge of the Isle of Dawn for the almanach. i have several questions for the teamers regarding the internal boundaries ( Does Westrourke belong to Heldon? for example...) thanks for any help Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st Join me at:thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr;clenarius@hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:55:00 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Etnography - Wendar and Denagoth According to Marco and Shawn's timeline, humans of the Denagothian plateau are either Denagothian or descendants of the Antalians. The first group occupies Denagoth and Essuria. The second group remains marginal. Is this second group the "NW barbarians" that Agathokles mentioned? I assume that they make up the core for Borean and northern Denagothian barbarians. The humans of Wendar are descendants of a second migration of Antalians. Denagothians are the result of Neathar/Beastman crossbreed. I will add all these info too. ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:55:52 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems --- Mischa Gelman : > > > Orcs of the Black Hand > > Ofcourse, they were really Beastmen.... > > I'm sure we've gone over this before (my memory has > trouble after 7 years > of debate), but did we ever find a way to reconcile > the Beastman-Orc/Ogre > issue? If we never did arrive at a conclusion, > perhaps some Beastmen > evolved/stabilized bloodlines before the cataclysm? I am pretty sure Beastmen only begin to breed true after the Cataclysm. Even David Ross (from his material on http://home.earthlink.net/~zimriel/Blackmoor/ ) maintains that Orcs and Goblins are simply names for the Blackmoorians use for Beastmen at this time and that all such monsters should be replaced with Beastmen. Håvard ______________________________________________________ Se den nye Yahoo! Mail på http://no.yahoo.com/ Nytt design, enklere å bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:59:55 +0200 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: Blackmoor maps available do you mind me putting your work on my site? i might soon work from it to stick together all the blackmoor maps in one... interested? Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st Join me at:thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr;clenarius@hotmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Havard Faanes" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Blackmoor maps available > --- Thibault Sarlat > skrev: > thanks, the url worked fine > > > > good job!! > > Thanks! > I am honored to have my works recognized by the master > cartographer of them all. :) > > Håvard > > ______________________________________________________ > Se den nye Yahoo! Mail på http://no.yahoo.com/ > Nytt design, enklere å bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 15:01:09 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Etnography - Zuyevo & Antalians The Zuyevans have been described by Adrian Mattias as an Antalian population. Considered how many Antalian populations there are, I'd make them yet another Proto-Antalian descended group. We would thus have: 1.Proto-Antalians 1.1 Antalians -----> Northmen, Barbarians, Hattians 1.2 Thantalians -----> Thyatis 1.3 Trantalians -----> Traladara; Milenia 1.4 Yavantalians ----> Zuyevo Any thought about this? Giulio ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 15:07:30 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems --- Francesco Defferrari : > well, according to canon and uncanon sources in > blackmoorian times Skothar > was inhabited by Neathar in the north, Tanagoro in > the south and an Oltec > colony in the west... so i assume that those three > should be the human races > of Thonia... maybe the empire had a little elves, > halfling and dwarves > population too, but they should not be slaves... > anyway probably the slave > population should include a large number of Yanifey > too, because for uncanon > sources Yanifey were the main population of south > western Skothar (present > day Minaea) and "alphatian" isles territories... > maybe thonians himself > could be a mixed neathar-yanifey population.... Unless I am mistaken, Halflings had not yet developed on Mystara at the time of Blackmoor, right? Elves should be a rare race at this time as most elves remained on the southern continent, but there are a few settlements near Blackmoor itself, though perhaps not too many in the Empire. Dwarves probably entered from the north after being driven from their homes by the Chromatic Dragons and should be quite numerous around Blackmoor but again probably rare in Thonia. Btw, I have updated the Peoples of Blackmoor article on my website based on these last few emails. Feel free to check it out and let me know if some of it is wrong. Håvard ______________________________________________________ Se den nye Yahoo! Mail på http://no.yahoo.com/ Nytt design, enklere å bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 15:09:28 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Blackmoor maps available --- Thibault Sarlat skrev: > do you mind me putting your work on my site? > i might soon work from it to stick together all the > blackmoor maps in one... > interested? Go right ahead :) Håvard ______________________________________________________ Se den nye Yahoo! Mail på http://no.yahoo.com/ Nytt design, enklere å bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 15:14:01 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Ethnography - some updates --- la Volpe : > THONIA & BLACKMOOR > James suggested that Antalians were descendants of > Thonia. I don't know what you think. Personally, I have now become convinced that the Antalians must be descendent from the Skandaharians. Ofcourse, it is possible that the Skandaharian/Blackmoor/Thonian peoples mixed so much during the Rise of Blackmoor that they have become indistinguishable from oneanother. Håvard ______________________________________________________ Se den nye Yahoo! Mail på http://no.yahoo.com/ Nytt design, enklere å bruke, alltid tilgang til Adressebok, Kalender og Notisbok ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:40:10 -0400 From: Dustin Clingman Subject: Hello from Zeitgeist Games Hello everyone, I just subscribed to this list today after I received message from Havard about the discussions pertaining to the origins of Blackmoor and it's relationship to Mystara. I am sure you have all heard that we are bringing back the old Blackmoor world as a d20 product and quite possibly a couple of other spin-offs. We are working diligently to maintain as much of the history of Blackmoor and yet still create an innovative and creative endeavor. We have already begun the foundations of the world and would love to use this list as a sounding board for things as they become available and necessary. To answer a couple of questions right of the bat: We do not have a timetable for when the sourcebook will be finished. We are working hard expanding the d20 mechanics in an effort to make the Blackmoor world stand out for those who are a more scrutinizing lot of player. The d20 system is great imo, but we have some ideas that we think will allow people to extend the basic play in some different directions based on player preferences. Dave and I have not discussed the relationship of Mystara to Blackmoor or it's future in the new sourcebook. There might be copyright issues somewhere in that whole mix that have to be considered. If it feels good, we will certainly try to keep it. After all, a cataclysm is a pretty destructive thing. After something like that, anything is possible. In this case, it might be more appropriate to say, *before* something like that anything is possible.. :) I would be happy to answer questions that you might have. What I don't know about Blackmoor, Dave certainly does. :) Dustin --- Dustin Clingman Zeitgeist Games www.zeitgeistgames.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:20:08 -0700 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Anyone buy Bluffside? Hey all, as mentioned in my earlier post, I recently bought Bluffside. Did = anyone else buy it? They are making it interactive with players online. I = use it quite extensively in my campaign. I'm curious to know how others of = you that have incorporated it into Mystara, and where did you put = yours?=20 JK Wolf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 16:42:02 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems Havard Faanes wrote: > > Unless I am mistaken, Halflings had not yet developed > on Mystara at the time of Blackmoor, right? Even if they existed at the time, they would be confined to Davania. > Elves > should be a rare race at this time as most elves > remained on the southern continent, but there are a > few settlements near Blackmoor itself, though perhaps > not too many in the Empire. There was a "King of Northern Elves", who is said to be an ancestor of one of the pregen characters in "City of the Gods". > Dwarves probably entered > from the north after being driven from their homes by > the Chromatic Dragons and should be quite numerous > around Blackmoor but again probably rare in Thonia. Dwarves can indeed be the most common demihumans in the Blackmoor age. They'd be Kogolor-like, though. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 18:42:40 +0200 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: Hello from Zeitgeist Games welcome to the list Dustin!! i am eager to discuss blackmoor , and it's future re-appearance... I am very map oriented as you'll see. my concerns would cettainly rotates on that matter. Anyway, welcome on board!! Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st Join me at:thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr;clenarius@hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:32:36 -0400 From: Dustin Clingman Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems Hey Guys, I have to be totally honest, Mystara was definitely on the "to-do" list in my RPGing. I have no more than a casual knowledge about the world and haven't had the time to play in the world at all. With that foundation, let me know if I say something that is not in line with the expected history. I do know that there were indeed Halflings in the time of Blackmoor, mostly resident in Booh. I remember this because there were a number of humans and Halflings who opposed the arrest of Uther when he ticked off the Emperor. If I am in the wrong era, just lemme know. Dustin //-----Original Message----- //From: Mystara RPG Discussion //[mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Agathokles //Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 12:42 PM //To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM //Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Blackmoor Problems // // //Havard Faanes wrote: //> //> Unless I am mistaken, Halflings had not yet developed //> on Mystara at the time of Blackmoor, right? // //Even if they existed at the time, they would be confined to Davania. // //> Elves //> should be a rare race at this time as most elves //> remained on the southern continent, but there are a //> few settlements near Blackmoor itself, though perhaps //> not too many in the Empire. // //There was a "King of Northern Elves", who is said to be an //ancestor of one of the pregen characters in "City of the Gods". // //> Dwarves probably entered //> from the north after being driven from their homes by //> the Chromatic Dragons and should be quite numerous //> around Blackmoor but again probably rare in Thonia. // //Dwarves can indeed be the most common demihumans in the //Blackmoor age. They'd be Kogolor-like, though. //-- // // // Giampaolo Agosta // // //agathokles@libero.it //agosta@elet.polimi.it //http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles // //******************************************************************** //The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp //The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ //To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM //with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. // ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:26:43 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Heldanic Knight grip on Norwold Thib wrote: > i would like to hear your opinions about the exact regions of norwold under > the grip of the HK. I know that Oceandsend has been taken again and that > Wolkenburg is a pain in the ass of the HK in this region, yet i cannot see a > way for so few heldanic soldier to affirm their power over such a vast > stretch of land. > > any idea??? Well, as of the end of 1018, Oceansend is no longer under HK control. As for your question, I would say the HK control a series of ports and other strongpoints up the coast bewteen Seelitz and Oceansend, and while they may *claim* the surrounding lands, they don't control them to nearly the same extent as they do the areas in Heldann proper, and southern Heldland (Landfall and vicinity). Also, one should remember that the indigenous Heldanner population is probably quite sparse, with many different clans occasionally clashing with each other. Surely, some of them would have united against the HKs, but others might have allied with the Knights in the hopes of getting a better deal later. In many cases, knowing that they are relatively few in number, the HKs would probably have honoured such alliances - it would be suicidal otherwise. Thus, when the HKs mount an assault in the north, the force is likely comprised of a core of HK clerics (medium- to high-level), plus many footsoldiers from Heldann. These numbers are then supplemented by indigenous Heldanners who have either converted to the worship of Vanya, or independent clans who are siding with the tough guys in the hopes of securing some loot and/or prisoners. Further south, HK parties are likely composed almost entirely of members of the Order (both of Hattian descent and converted Heldanners). So really, the situation in the north would likely be very political, with multiple alliances in place to ensure the countryside doesn't rise up, while scattered strongholds, populated by colonists from the south, ensure pockets of loyalty, as well as provide future administrative centres and focal points for missionary work (i.e., the clerics base themselves in these villages, forts, and towns). The other factor to remember here is that the HK, following Vanya, is devoted to the arts of war and conquest, and, not to sound too facetious, they would have to be pretty good at it in order to remain a viable organisation. Simply put, most clans would not be able to stand up to a concerted HK assault, even if they allied together. The HKs are better armoured, more organised, have better technology, are more cohesive generally, and probably have more higher-level clerics among them. Thus, barring military blunders, corruption, widespread civil strife in the north, or outside intervention, the HKs will probably be able to keep, and consolidate, their gains. Of course, this is my own interpretation on the matter. I hope this helps, Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:31:38 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: [GANDERG@tc.gc.ca: Mystaran Ethnology] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: GANDERG@tc.gc.ca ("Gander, Geoff") To: au998@freenet.carleton.ca ("'au998@freenet.carleton.ca'") Subject: Mystaran Ethnology Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:45:37 -0400 Hello all, This talk of ethnology is interesting, and I thought it might be useful if I shared something I had kicking around my HD for several years. This piece, originally written by Matthew Levy (an MMLer who left the List a few years ago), outlined some thoughts on the Doulakki culture already mentioned in earlier posts. This piece, drafted about 4 years ago, contributed to the development of the Cynidicea sourcebook, but some of its ideas were dropped when the sourcebook was finally completed. I thought some people here might be interested in what he had to say about the Doulakki, and it might further discussions. Enjoy! Geoff ***** The Doulakki: by Matthew Levy The Doulakki are the Mystaran equivalent of the Hellenistic Greeks; their language is related to Halav's Traldaran and to Milenian but not directly related to modern Traladaran or Thyatian. The Doulakki lived in the coastal areas that would later be Thyatis before the Thyatian tribes arrived there, and were eventually assimilated into the Thyatian empire, which is the source of some of the more Greek-sounding Thyatian names; although Milenian influence was probably much stronger. The Doulakki also spread into Dythestenia and Nicostenia in the period of the decline and collapse of Nithia, and their language would have been spoken in Cynidicea in the time of King Alexander and Queen Zenobia, and a derivative of it is probably spoken by modern Cynidiceans (whose names are still Greek). Thyatian sages probably still are taught to read and write Doulakki, and even educated adventurers might understand it (explaining how they could interact with the dwellers of the lost city). It probably also is well-known to Alasiyan intellectuals. They are linguistically related to the Traladarans, Antalians (and Quasi-Antalians, such as the Dunael), and Sindhi; they are an offshoot of the Neathar race, and they most likely originated somewhere in eastern Brun, perhaps having migrated into the southern regions after being driven out by the Ethengars circa BC 1700 or thereabouts. At any rate they became a distinct group sometime between BC 2000 BC and BC 1000. Some of them were forcibly resettled by the Nithians along the southern coast of Brun; this group has mistakenly been associated with the modern Traladarans, who speak a distinct language but have appropriated Traldar/Doulakki cultural symbols. The Doulakki lived along the southern coast, in the northern foothills of the Cruth Mountains, in the Alasiyan basin, and on the southern islands. They stretched from Athenos in the west to Borydos in the east and as far north as Tameronikas and Selenica (Salonikos). Possibly they also had trade networks as far as Yavdlom (Tanakumba, named Thanopolis by outsiders, could have been a Doulakki trading post at one time) and may have built Akesoli and Akorros. They never had a unified imperial government, but were based around city-states with occasional larger confederacies. In the southwest, a powerful kingdom under Halav was destroyed by gnolls, and the city-states of the southeast were destroyed and assimilated later by the Sea Reavers (i.e., the Thyatian tribes). In the Alasiyan basin, Cynidicea collapsed under Antalian attacks and the other city-states were later conquered by various groups and became so cosmopolitan as not to be associated with the Doulakki by any except the learned. The states within modern Darokin were gradually absorbed by the Tumans (whose own city was founded circa BC 556) and then later annexed by the Eastwinds after the collapse of Tuma in BC 130 to attacks by chaotic forces. -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:07:37 +0200 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: History of the Dwarven Race Chris Furneaux wrote: > Personally it I thought it might be interesting to see more internal = conflict > between the dawarven clans played out with the moriswerg but this = could easily > be inserted if one so desired. This is mainly because I felt that the = immortals > dealing with Loki to stop his worship was a bit of a cop out. That is = the one > bit that could use a bit more development. Yes, it could be better. I was quite unhappy with the way it was = initially portrayed (the dwarves stormed the Modrigswerg stronghold and = threw down the leaders), and we decided to change it. It left too many = questions that were hard to answer. In my mind, it was a big secret, up = until the end, that the Modrigswerg leaders were actually wizards, who = worshipped Loki. Still, there could have been some war before the end, = perhaps a war that threatened to destroy all the remaining dwarves. > Well I had also considered that the moriswerg could have taken = gaurdianship of > them, but not actually know they were once built by others. That is = why they > are so rich. I like this idea. When the Modrigswerg started isolating themselves from = each other, they formed smaller bands that took over the old homes of = the dwarves. They lived a few hundred in vast empty halls that were = built to house thousands of dwarves and made use of the many resources = that were suddenly theirs. How's that? Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:07:41 +0200 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems Dustin Clingman wrote: > I do know that there were indeed Halflings in the time of > Blackmoor, mostly resident in Booh. I remember this because there were = a > number of humans and Halflings who opposed the arrest of Uther when he > ticked off the Emperor. Indeed. Halflings lived on Mystara on the southern continent at the dawn = of recorded time (HW boxed set). How they got to Blackmoor is anyone's = guess, but there are halflings in the DA series. Of course, in view of another Mystaran retrofit (that of the monstrous = humanoids of the DA series being Beastmen rather than orcs, goblins, = etc.) a case could be made for not having halflings in Mystaran = Blackmoor. I, personally, like them there. :) It will be interesting to see if really good stuff will come of = Blackmoor's return, if so, we will definitely work to make it fit as = well as possible with established Mystaran lore (if it doesn't already = ;). Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 22:13:22 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Ethnography - some updates --- Havard Faanes ha scritto: > --- la Volpe : > > > THONIA & BLACKMOOR > > James suggested that Antalians were descendants of > > Thonia. I don't know what you think. > > Personally, > I have now become convinced that the Antalians must > be > descendent from the Skandaharians. Well, I don't know...a Viking raiding culture that remains unchanged for...what...5000 years? I prefer to assume (but this idea is worth like that of anybody else - in this case that of Haavard 8-) ) that they died out or were absorbed and that later someone developed a similar culture. Something like Aztecs and Egyptians. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 22:19:46 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: History of the Dwarven Race > > Well I had also considered that the moriswerg > could have taken gaurdianship of > > them, but not actually know they were once built > by others. That is why they > > are so rich. > > I like this idea. When the Modrigswerg started > isolating themselves from each other, they formed > smaller bands that took over the old homes of the > dwarves. They lived a few hundred in vast empty > halls that were built to house thousands of dwarves > and made use of the many resources that were > suddenly theirs. How's that? Sounds a good idea to me. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 22:22:07 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: I forgot one Proto-Antalian group --- la Volpe ha scritto: > The Zuyevans have been described by Adrian Mattias > as > an Antalian population. Considered how many Antalian > populations there are, I'd make them yet another > Proto-Antalian descended group. We would thus have: > > 1.Proto-Antalians > 1.1 Antalians -----> Northmen, Barbarians, > Hattians > 1.2 Thantalians -----> Thyatis > 1.3 Trantalians -----> Traladara; Milenia > 1.4 Yavantalians ----> Zuyevo I was forgetting: 1.5 Old Thonians ----> Blackmoor ----> Thonians And this should be everything for the Proto-Antalians. ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 08:30:51 +1200 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: History of the Dwarven Race > Yes, it could be better. I was quite unhappy with the way it was > initially portrayed (the dwarves stormed the Modrigswerg stronghold and > threw down the leaders), and we decided to change it. It left too many > questions that were hard to answer. I'd be interested in hearing some of those tricky questions (just out of interest). I agree though, I always thought Dwarves had a lot of clan and family loyalty. That makes throwing down the leaders of a clan nearly imposible. (which is why the war would be bloody. What if we wern't talking such recent history. We have been assuming that the strugle between the moriswerg happened shortly before the re-forming. What if it happened substantally before then and was one of the factors leading up to the population decline in the dwarves. Just an idea to think about. I'm just interested if we could get something that we could see might have actually happened. I mean it would make for some great historic mystaran adventures. Dwarf against Dwarf. Dark elves plotting and scheming. Interfereing gods. Mystical weapons, etc. > In my mind, it was a big secret, up > until the end, that the Modrigswerg leaders were actually wizards, who > worshipped Loki. Still, there could have been some war before the end, > perhaps a war that threatened to destroy all the remaining dwarves. Agreed. I don't think it should have been comon knowledge. Perhaps I am just a warmonger but I like that last idea. > > Well I had also considered that the moriswerg could have taken > > gaurdianship of them, but not actually know they were once built > > by others. That is why they are so rich. > > I like this idea. When the Modrigswerg started isolating themselves from > each other, they formed smaller bands that took over the old homes of > the dwarves. They lived a few hundred in vast empty halls that were > built to house thousands of dwarves and made use of the many resources > that were suddenly theirs. How's that? I like it too, but I think to re-locate the dwarves to rockhome, transplanting some of the halls would be easier then starting from sratch. That said however, the moriswerg would have not re-populated themselves as much after the decline of their race and some of the halls may not have been relocated so I think you would have that situation where a few hundred in vast empty halls that were built to house thousands of dwarves anyway. Chris. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:48:26 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems From: "Agathokles" > Havard Faanes wrote: > > Unless I am mistaken, Halflings had not yet developed > > on Mystara at the time of Blackmoor, right? > > Even if they existed at the time, they would be confined to Davania. wait a moment, i recall there were halfling in the blackmoorian adventures (DA1-2-3-4). Am i wrong ? bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:52:45 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Ethnography - some updates From: "Havard Faanes" > Personally, > I have now become convinced that the Antalians must be > descendent from the Skandaharians. I agree. And i think nowadays Thonians should not be a fair skinned antalian population... even if before the cataclysm they were pure neathar, they should after have mixed at least a little with tanagoro and oltecs slaves, or with jennites, so they should not be too much fair skinned, IMO. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:55:21 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems From: "Dustin Clingman" > I do know that there were indeed Halflings in the time of > Blackmoor, mostly resident in Booh. I remember this because there were a > number of humans and Halflings who opposed the arrest of Uther when he > ticked off the Emperor. If I am in the wrong era, just lemme know. > Dustin Well, so i remembered correctly. Halflings were indeed in the original adventures... I assumed they came from Davania following an elven migration to Skothar... bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 02:33:43 +0000 From: adrian mattias Subject: Re: Etnography - Zuyevo & Antalians The Zuyevans are made up of three distinct ethnic groups. First there is the Yevo - who are descended from the Antalians, then there are the Talmav who share the same ancestors as the Ethengars, and then there is the Visneskayans (who you described?). Amyway, the way I put it together, was that the Yevo tribe fled westwards from the Norwold area when King Loark? and his horde swept through slaughtering everything in sight. That would have been in 2700BC if my memory serves me correctly. The Talmavs fled for the same reason a few years later when Loark went south. Both tribes headed to the far west of Brun where the Yevo created a kingdom in Hyborea until it was destroyed by the near immortal ice demon Kazukarzash in ?AC100?. The remainder fled south settling near the Visneskayan kingdom which they assimilated in 500 AC or so with the help of Talmav horsemen who had settled the area much earlier. If you look at the Zuyevo entry in the Almanac you will get the full story. Also, if you look in the White Orcs of the North mini-gazeteer which is also in the Almanac, you will see an entry for a place called Azganizband where the Azganiz people live beseiged by the White Orcs. The Azganiz are also an offshoot of the Yevo migration. I modelled Azganizband on the RW northern Afghanistani peoples who (at the time) were holding off the Taliban in the mountainous Panjshir valley. Anyway, I hope that sheds some light. Cheers Adrian > From: la Volpe > Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: [MYSTARA] Etnography - Zuyevo & Antalians > Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 15:01:09 +0200 > > The Zuyevans have been described by Adrian Mattias as > an Antalian population. Considered how many Antalian > populations there are, I'd make them yet another > Proto-Antalian descended group. We would thus have: > > 1.Proto-Antalians > 1.1 Antalians -----> Northmen, Barbarians, Hattians > 1.2 Thantalians -----> Thyatis > 1.3 Trantalians -----> Traladara; Milenia > 1.4 Yavantalians ----> Zuyevo > > Any thought about this? > > Giulio > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali > http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 08:38:48 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems Francesco Defferrari wrote: > > wait a moment, i recall there were halfling in the blackmoorian adventures > (DA1-2-3-4). Am i wrong ? No, you are right. There were at least three halfling chiefs/sheriffs/heroes among the famous people of Blackmoor. A check at the Vaults confirms that Halfling existed from circa 6000 BC, two millennia before Blackmoor. They were largely confined to remote sections of Davania, but it is possible (even probable) that they had some contacts with elves. Then, the elves who moved north to Skothar/Thonia could have brought along some halflings. These halflings would have then died in the GRoF. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 08:50:39 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Ethnography - some updates la Volpe wrote: > >> Personally, >> I have now become convinced that the Antalians must >> be descendent from the Skandaharians. > > Well, I don't know...a Viking raiding culture that > remains unchanged for...what...5000 years? Unlikely, indeed. But the Skandaharians did not remain unchanged for 5000 years. Most likely, they raised to technomantic nuclear age along Blackmoor. When Blackmoor was destroyed, they were reduced to stone age, and restarted from a hunter-gatherer culture. They were back to viking raiding by the rise of Taymora. With an incredibly old and powerful Immortal (Odin) whose primary interest is in their culture, it is no surprise that they then remained a viking raiding culture from the age of Nithia to the modern times. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 3 Sep 2002 to 4 Sep 2002 (#2002-231) **************************************************************