Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 6 Sep 2002 to 7 Sep 2002 (#2002-234) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 08/09/2002, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 34 messages totalling 1089 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Sind (2) 2. Questions for Zeitgeist Games 3. Paparazzi Glantri Relaunched 4. Ylari, Ethengar, Peshwa, Sindhi, Nithians, Oltecs 5. Nuari, Makai & Ochaleans (6) 6. Etnography - Wendar and Denagoth (2) 7. Languages and ethnography (3) 8. Blackmoor Problems (10) 9. Sind (Question) (3) 10. Dairu? (was Nuari, Makai & Ochaleans) 11. I'm officially crazy 12. Etnography - Zuyevo & Antalians (2) 13. Ethnography by Language ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 13:43:09 +0100 From: Paul George Dooley Subject: Re: Sind Kar Ess wrote: > > I need some information on Sind, is there a link or two with quite a bit > of description, culture comparison, names? I only have a few Mystara > Gazeteers, so have only references to the country. The largest referance IIrc is in the Champions of Mystara boxset. If it isn't out already as a PDF from Wizards it should be soon. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 09:54:43 -0400 From: Dustin Clingman Subject: Re: Questions for Zeitgeist Games I reply to the comments below. :) //This sounds really good. I was worried that there //would be too many silly NPCs and references to people //in the Gaming industry etc. I think you might be talking about the Egg of Coot and his believed relation to Gary Gygax. I can dispel this one right away. The Egg of Coot was named after a player named Greg Scott very early on in the creation of the Blackmoor campaign. People think it's Gary because his initials are E.G.G. spelling "Egg". Dave has assured me many times over that this is the true origin on the Egg of Coot. I will say also that the Egg will be making a really cool comeback as well. :) So if you thought he was silly, he is coming back, but in a "cool silly" kind of way. // Mystara has maps of the planet and a //history before and after Blackmoor. Much fan created //material is also connected with Mystara prehistory //with connections to Blackmoor that could be //interesting for you. I can say that after a bit of further review that the relation between Mystara and the forthcoming Blackmoor is going to have to be a fan created relationship. Much of the geography will be the same, but we can't make those leaps and hope for the book to ever see print. I really hope that we can build a world that will inspire and excite you all in the same ways that Mystara has. In the end it will be Blackmoor standing apart from the rest in "technical" history from earlier products. Cheers, Dustin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 21:43:32 +0800 From: "Francisco V. Navarro V" Subject: Paparazzi Glantri Relaunched Hail Mystarans! The Paparazzi Glantri has been relaunched with a new look. Please have a look at see what those nasty Glantrian rumormongers have come up with. http://www.geocities.com/paparazzi_glantri Kit Navarro ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 07:02:53 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Ylari, Ethengar, Peshwa, Sindhi, Nithians, Oltecs At 10:58 AM 9/6/02 +0200, you wrote: > > ETHENGAR & OCHALEA > > About Ochaleans: they are really a big problem. > Whatever race we decide they are, we must find an > explanation to canon that says (DotE) that they belong > to the Alphatian ethnic group. They are common (ie, Cypri) Alphatians- nowadays. The concept behind an "aboriginal" Ochalean race came about in discussions by various folk that the Ochalean culture was so different from that of the Cypri/Alphatians, that there must originally have been an indigenous Ochalean culture present on the island, pre-Alphatian occupation. (At least, I think that's the gist of it, as I've always understood things). My theory is that the Pexuan/Peshwan formed the core of this "aboriginal" Ochalean culture, which prospered mostly without interference or contact with outsiders- save for some Makai on the fringes, a lot of tribal rakasta in the interior jungles, and a Traladaran offshoot race known as Dairu that Mystaros mentioned once in his Isle of Dawn timeline (I have them as being a sort of counterpart to the Ainu of the Japanese isles). There was also later contact with the Makai/Tanagoro admixture of cultures that formed the core of the Pearl Islands. These aboriginal Ochaleans were conquered by the barbaric rakasta (who established the Miao dynasty). During their reign, certain advances in civilization were imposed, and one notable occurrence took place- the discovery and colonization of the invisible moon, Patera (the early stages of the Myoshiman Empire- note that this is a change from my original Pateran timeline). The Miao dynasty was later destroyed by the Alphatians, who had arrived in Ochalea. The Ochaleans at first were grateful to their saviors, but soon learned that the Alphatians were only interested in taking over the island nation for themselves. In the centuries since Alphatian occupation, the native Ochalean race has mostly been assimilated into the Cypri/Alphatian population (much as Cypri features have largely come to dominate the rest of the Alphatian continent), but the "core" culture of the aborigines has mostly remained true to that of its founders. The Pexuan/Ochalean race still exists as a minority race on Ochalea, as I have it, though. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 17:09:26 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Nuari, Makai & Ochaleans NUARI & MAKAI Andrew suggested Nuari as being Tanagoro/Makai mix. What do you think about it? Personally I'd prefer to have them ally, but if we mix them ethnically I'd consider Nuari as pure Tanagoro, while Makai could have Nuari blood, something like: * Makai 75% Maharians (Neathar), 25% Nuari (Tanagoro) * Nuari are at least 90% Tanagoro (where 90% is the least percentage that prevents from noticing any external ethnic influence) The explanation would work well for Makai, because we can avoid a strict tie to the polinesian culture, whose ethnicity belongs to the Austrics, a RW human group that is not represented at all on Mystara. Austrics are the ancestors of southern Chinese, Thai, Malasyians, Papua, Maori & Australian Aborigines, and these cultures are not present in human form on Mystara; Makai are at least mostly Neathar, according to Canon, and thus Indoeuropeans or something like that. In this way we can have them evolve a more "oceanian/caraibic" philosophy without making them ethnically Austric. If someone wants an Austric civilization somewhere, there is much room on Skothar and Davania to do that! ABORIGINAL OCHALEANS I think that we could put an aboriginal Ochalean race here of Peshwan origin, later conquered by Rakastas. However, nowadays most Ochaleans belong to a pacifist ethnic group, coming from the Alphatian planet and subject to them, that settled there and absorbed the locals. The pacific mixture of the two cultures made up for the current Ochalean culture. A cool thing could also be to have Koryis as patron of both races, the Aborigins and the Ochaleans, so when the Alphatians arrived to Mystara he convinced the Ochaleans to move there, otherwise the Alphatians would probably have destroyed completely that culture (more or less what they did with the original Yanifey that lived on the Alphatian continent and on Bellissaria). This is my take on it, and it should allow us a wide room for the various ideas on the Ochaleans, what do you think? DAIRU Uhm. Whatever will be done with this race, I'd prefer not have them as Traladarans...they cannot be the Ainu in my opinion, and they cannot be everywhere! Giulio ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 11:27:34 -0400 From: Castille Baromon de Preto Subject: Re: Etnography - Wendar and Denagoth > > la Volpe wrote: > > > > According to Marco and Shawn's timeline, humans of the > > Denagothian plateau are either Denagothian or > > descendants of the Antalians. The first group occupies > > Denagoth and Essuria. The second group remains > > marginal. Is this second group the "NW barbarians" > > that Agathokles mentioned? I assume that they make up > > the core for Borean and northern Denagothian > > barbarians. > > Yes, they are the same people that invaded Essuria at the time of > Landryn Teriak (before he became the Shadowlord). > They come from the wastelands west of Denagoth, though. > - Giampaolo Agosta > IMC I used a race called the Carnuilh. A druidic race of nomads that migrated east and west in the northern areas of Brun. The Eastern Carnuilh were enslaved by Nithians and now live on the Isle of Dawn as Dunlanders, the Western branch became the Eusdrian and Robrenn cultures, the Carnuilh that stayed in the Great Wildlands were enslaved by several successions of orcs, and became the Denagothians. Those that were enslaved by the ogres became the Oghriz. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 11:35:51 -0400 From: Castille Baromon de Preto Subject: Re: Nuari, Makai & Ochaleans > > From: la Volpe > Austrics are the ancestors of southern Chinese, Thai, > Malasyians, Papua, Maori & Australian Aborigines, and > these cultures are not present in human form on > Mystara; I belive Bruce Heard did put some of these cultures in one form or another in areas like the Orc's Head and Zyxl? We also have the Thyatian Wereboar taking over an orcish Maori tribe, EAST of Thyatis, Drums of Fire Mountain? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 11:42:54 -0400 From: Castille Baromon de Preto Subject: Re: Sind > > Kar Ess wrote: > > > > I need some information on Sind, is there a link or two with quite a bit > > of description, culture comparison, names? I only have a few Mystara > > Gazeteers, so have only references to the country. > I believe the HW descriptions for Sindhi has them listed as Oltec stock. With the Oltecs believing in hundreds of immortals and the Sindhi believing in thousands of immortals, and Ochaleans having ten-thousands fists of the Kahn. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 17:48:27 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Languages and ethnography Like in real world, ethicity and languages are not always correspondent. Taking a look at the table of languages written by Agathokles, I noticed a language called Ranax. Which population speaks this language? Giulio ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 11:52:51 -0400 From: Castille Baromon de Preto Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems > > From: Giampaolo Agosta > > Then, the elves who moved north to Skothar/Thonia could have brought > along some halflings. These halflings would have then died in the GRoF. > -- > Or be the descendants of the Norwold Hin in Leaha. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 12:06:28 -0400 From: Castille Baromon de Preto Subject: Re: Languages and ethnography > > From: la Volpe > > Like in real world, ethicity and languages are not > always correspondent. > Taking a look at the table of languages written by > Agathokles, I noticed a language called Ranax. Which > population speaks this language? > > Giulio > The Druidic Robrenn culture on the Savage Coast. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 12:09:44 -0400 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Sind (Question) From: "Joe Kelly" > If Sind is like India who was dominated by Britain what sort of > cultural effect would the Sindese have with the domination of the > Huleans? Actually, I think that the earlier Muslim invasions of India would be a closer historical analogy to the likely effects of the Hulean occupation in the long term. If I recall correctly, the Muslims converted most people in the areas that later became Pakistan and Bangladesh and had a major cultural influence even in the areas where people retained their original Hindu religion. In the case of Sind, that would suggest that Sind could be divided by rivalries between the cults of Loki/Bozdogan on the one hand and those of Ixion and other Immortals of the original Sindian pantheon on the other, with Benekander as yet another wild card in the equation. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 12:24:21 -0400 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems From: "Francesco Defferrari" > > wait a moment, i recall there were halfling in the blackmoorian adventures > (DA1-2-3-4). Am i wrong ? No, you are quite right. Dwarves, elves, and halflings are all mentioned in the Blackmoor modules. More problematical is the mention of orcs and trolls in the encounter tables in DA3 and DA4. Although the orcs could be rationalized as actually being beastmen, trolls in the Blackmoor era would be rather tough to explain. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 12:29:00 -0400 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems From: "Jacob Skytte" > Indeed. Halflings lived on Mystara on the southern continent at the > dawn of recorded time (HW boxed set). How they got to Blackmoor > is anyone's guess, but there are halflings in the DA series. > > Of course, in view of another Mystaran retrofit (that of the monstrous > humanoids of the DA series being Beastmen rather than orcs, goblins, > etc.) a case could be made for not having halflings in Mystaran > Blackmoor. I, personally, like them there. :) So do I. I would never assume that the HW migration maps were complete -- just complete enough to account for the modern populations of nations detailed by that point. Thus, whatever became of the demi-humans of Blackmoor, for the most part they probably were not the ancestors of the demi-humans of the Known World. Whether they died out in or after the Great Rain of Fire, returned to Davania to be reassimilated into their ancestral population, or left descendants in parts of Skothar not yet covered in detail would then be an open question. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 12:32:41 -0400 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems From: "Mischa Gelman" > > > > Orcs of the Black Hand > > Ofcourse, they were really Beastmen.... > > I'm sure we've gone over this before (my memory has trouble after 7 years > of debate), but did we ever find a way to reconcile the Beastman-Orc/Ogre > issue? If we never did arrive at a conclusion, perhaps some Beastmen > evolved/stabilized bloodlines before the cataclysm? Or they could have stabilized in terms of size but not general appearance. We would then have the following: Goblins: Small beastmen Orcs: Medium-sized beastmen Ogres: Large beastmen Trolls: Still no idea how to explain them. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 12:43:24 -0400 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems From: "Havard Faanes" > > The name Thonia lives on, but are there any other > relations between the current kingdom and the anicent > empire? Im assuming that you're referring to fan based > material here, got an URL? OTOH, what are the > relations between ancient and modern day Egypt...? :) Culturally, wasn't Blackmoor itself "Thonian"? In that case, Thonia would simply be the place where the descendants of the survivors of the Great Rain of Fire closest to Blackmoor and the Thonian Empire ended up. I would assume that their advanced civilization was lost to them as they struggled for survival over the next several centuries. The analogy of ancient vs. modern Egypt is actually quite apt. Modern Egyptians are descended from many ethnic backgrounds (as many peoples have invaded or settled in that area over the millennia) but are mostly the physical descendants of the ancient Egyptians (as one can deduce from the fact that their physical appearances remain quite distinct from those of other nations in the region). However, little remains of the culture of ancient Egypt -- their language, religion, and many other cultural features are now mostly Arab, not an evolution of ancient Egyptian. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 12:51:32 -0400 From: David Knott Subject: Dairu? (was Nuari, Makai & Ochaleans) From: "la Volpe" > > DAIRU > Uhm. Whatever will be done with this race, I'd prefer > not have them as Traladarans...they cannot be the Ainu > in my opinion, and they cannot be everywhere! What have you already established about these people? I am assuming that somebody made them up as I am fairly sure that I have not seen that name before. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 19:38:21 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Nuari, Makai & Ochaleans > I belive Bruce Heard did put some of these cultures > in one form or another in areas like the Orc's Head > and Zyxl? We also have the Thyatian Wereboar taking > over an orcish Maori tribe, EAST of Thyatis, Drums > of Fire Mountain? Yes, but I don't think there are HUMAN cultures that have those real world counterparts. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 13:54:36 -0400 From: Castille Baromon de Preto Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems > > From: David Knott > More problematical is the mention of orcs > and trolls in the encounter tables in DA3 and DA4. Although the orcs > could be rationalized as actually being beastmen, trolls in the Blackmoor > era would be rather tough to explain. > Since the Troll is supposed to be a Nithian Wizzard's creation of a gnoll mixed with a gnome, you are quite right, trolls are hard to explain in Blackmoor. Except trolls could have crossed over from the Inn in the Broken Lands. Then the troll would be only local to Blackmoor. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 16:33:56 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: I'm officially crazy la Volpe wrote: > > at home and forced my father to talk with me about > issues like Turk-Mongols and Ugro-Finns to try to make > this darn table of human races... LOL! > sometime...it's really a cool debate, and I am > officially crazy. Fine ;) The ethnography of Mystara is, as usual, a maze. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 16:42:13 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Sind (Question) Kar Ess wrote: > > So, how do you think a lone woman warrior/cleric would fare? > Going to have one going thru there in my campaign. Clerics are upper class, as are Warriors and Wizards. They are quite powerful, and VotPA says the common Sindian manage to survive thanks to the help of these clergymen. Women don't seem to have a different status from males, at least in the upper classes. There are few examples of Sindhi characters, but one of them is a Rani (queen). IIRC, she has several husbands, and is a strong supporter of the Rajahdhirajah (overking/emperor). This works for a native character. For foreigners, here is a piece of advice from VotPA: "Foreigners often have difficulties traveling in Sind because of the incredible number of customs and beliefs that affect every aspect of the daily life. Ignoring a custom, deliberately or accidentally, can provoke anger among the population." -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 16:44:21 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Sind (Question) Joe Kelly wrote: > > True but they are as domineering as the British were with there own cultural influences which the Indians rose up against. Would Sind be the same? I wonder. Of course. My doubt is more related to the higher possibilities of throwing the Huleans out. A better comparison could be with the Muslim dynasties that ruled India for some time. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 16:54:40 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Etnography - Wendar and Denagoth Castille Baromon de Preto wrote: > > IMC I used a race called the Carnuilh. A druidic race of nomads that migrated east and west in the northern areas of Brun. The Eastern Carnuilh were enslaved by Nithians and now live on the Isle of Dawn as Dunlanders, the Western branch became the Eusdrian and Robrenn cultures, the Carnuilh that stayed in the Great Wildlands were enslaved by several successions of orcs, and became the Denagothians. Those that were enslaved by the ogres became the Oghriz. Not a bad idea. Basically, it would equate Carnuilh to Dunael/Dunharians, and add that the Denagothian where a Carnuilh/Beastman crossbreed. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 16:56:59 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Languages and ethnography la Volpe wrote: > > Like in real world, ethicity and languages are not > always correspondent. Of course, though there is a strong connection. The main difference, as far as Neathar go, would be in Thyatians and Hattians, as the former have a language that is more heavily influenced by Milenian, and the latter by Antalian, though they are actually of the same ethnic stock. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 16:58:07 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Nuari, Makai & Ochaleans la Volpe wrote: > > NUARI & MAKAI > Andrew suggested Nuari as being Tanagoro/Makai mix. > What do you think about it? Personally I'd prefer to > have them ally, but if we mix them ethnically I'd > consider Nuari as pure Tanagoro, while Makai could > have Nuari blood, something like: I agree, the Nuari look much like pure Tanagoro. They could have slight traces of other ancestries, of course. The Makai would be mostly Neathar, but could have Tanagoro or even Oltec blood. Not more than a 10-20%, though. > If someone wants an Austric > civilization somewhere, there is much room on Skothar > and Davania to do that! Uhm, there are the Wallara, who are basically Australian aborigines. > ABORIGINAL OCHALEANS > I think that we could put an aboriginal Ochalean race > here of Peshwan origin, later conquered by Rakastas. > However, nowadays most Ochaleans belong to a pacifist > ethnic group, coming from the Alphatian planet and > subject to them, that settled there and absorbed the > locals. The pacific mixture of the two cultures made Ok. As for Koryis, I think he was mostly interested in Old Alphatia, though he might have achieved Immortality on Mystara, and therefore chose it as the location for his pacifist followers after the destruction of Alphatia. > DAIRU You lost me here--where do these guys come from? -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 15:00:25 -0400 From: Castille Baromon de Preto Subject: Re: Etnography - Zuyevo & Antalians > > From: la Volpe > > 1.Proto-Antalians > 1.1 Antalians -----> Northmen, Barbarians, Hattians > 1.2 Thantalians -----> Thyatis > 1.3 Trantalians -----> Traladara; Milenia > 1.4 Yavantalians ----> Zuyevo > > Any thought about this? > 1.5 Carnuilh----->Eusdrian, Robren/elf influence, Denagothian/orc influence, Dunael, Oghriz/Sindhi Ogre influence, Second wave of migrations of Antalian stock into Wendar. Also, Proto-Antalians could be Skandaharian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 21:07:16 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Nuari, Makai & Ochaleans . > > > DAIRU > > You lost me here--where do these guys come from? A James Mishler created race similar to Dairu, if I am not wrong. ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 21:10:24 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems > Or they could have stabilized in terms of size but > not general appearance. > We would then have the following: > > Goblins: Small beastmen > Orcs: Medium-sized beastmen > Ogres: Large beastmen This is a good idea, that goes hand in hand with David's idea about Trolls: a Troll clan crossed the Inn portal in the Broken Lands and arrived in Blackmoor. They are so few that they will die out soon without creating too many paradoxes; and a trickster Immortal of Time thought it would be cool to let some scholar of the 1000 AC era to discover a mention of trolls in Blackmoor, impossible to explain because the scholars know trolls were created much later. 8-) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 21:12:54 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Etnography - Zuyevo & Antalians > 1.5 Carnuilh----->Eusdrian, Robren/elf influence, > Denagothian/orc influence, Dunael, Oghriz/Sindhi > Ogre influence, Second wave of migrations of > Antalian stock into Wendar. I have written a more comprehensive genealogy table where I used the Carnuilh as a Skandaharian group (more precisely, they are the same thing as the Dunharian group, considered that the Dunharians are the ancestors of Dunael, Thratians and Robrennians). So we had the same idea, and different names!!! However, I'll send the thing very soon. ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Musica: notizie, recensioni, classifiche, speciali multimediali http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 22:07:22 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Nuari, Makai & Ochaleans la Volpe wrote: > > > > DAIRU > > > > You lost me here--where do these guys come from? > > A James Mishler created race similar to Dairu, if I am > not wrong. Got them, a mix of Oltecs (prevalent) and Traldar. Could be anything, but probably Oltec + Maharians or Taymorans, rather than Traldar. This would also make the Dairu more ancient, dating back to 2000-1500 BC. Also, those Oltecs could be the descendants of the Peshwah, as was proposed for the ancestors of Ochaleans. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 18:31:24 -0400 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems > scholars know trolls were created much later. Wasn't it the *gnolls* that were created much later, due to experiments by Nithian wizards? What is the problem with trolls, other than what's been already mentioned with regards to Beastmen? Maybe trolls were large and/or regenerating beastmen. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 18:45:19 -0400 From: Christopher M Cherrington Subject: Ethnography by Language When I was in college, my favorite subject was Anthropology. I did allot of research in language for Mystara then (before I knew about this list, in fact this is what I have used for my games for the last 15 years, with little update). 1.. Neathar Family 1.. Antalian Subgroup i. Hattian ii. Northlandish 1. Heldannic 2. Ostlandish, Vestlandish, Soderfjordish iii. Hinterlandish 1. Wolf, Raven, Lion… 2.. Thratian i. Thyation ii. Kerrendian iii. Slag iv. Ispan 1. Espa/Saragon 2. Verdan 3. Renardois 3.. Carnuilh i. Ranax ii. Eusdrian iii. Dunael iv. Brythoni 2.. Neathar/Oltec Family 1.. Nithian i. Nithian 1. Thothian 2. Cynadean ii. Enduk iii. Aramaic 1. Nikastani iv. Semitic 1. Ylari v. Periran 1. Hulean 2.. Traldar i. Western 1. Slagich ii. Eastern (Eastwind) 1. Daro iii. Southern 1. Traladaran 2. Boldavian iv. Millenian 3.. Minroth i. Minrothad Patois 4.. Malayo i. Taymoran 1. Makai ii. Urduk iii. Cestian 3.. Oltec 1.. Oltec 2.. Azcan i. Autraughin 3.. Jennite i. Jennite ii. Minnean Other Languages are mostly alien (Alphatian), or Altaic languages, like orcish and Ethengarian. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 19:00:26 -0400 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems From: "Dan Eustace" > > What is the problem with trolls, other than what's been already mentioned > with regards to Beastmen? > > Maybe trolls were large and/or regenerating beastmen. Actually, that is the problem right there -- that regeneration ability makes trolls a very specialized goblinoid race, unlikely to be mistaken for anything else. Of course, given how different trolls are from other goblinoids, maybe they were the first to separate from the main beastman line and start "breeding true"? In that case, ogres might have originated as crossbreeds between Medium-sized beastmen and hill giants, while kobolds might originally have been some sort of magical goblin/cayma hybrid, leaving goblins through bugbears (the only races in the right size range according to the tables in the Hollow World boxed set) as the "pure" beastman breeds. Interesting -- if nobody can poke too many holes in this theory, then we may actually have a new addition to the theory of goblinoid evolution on Mystara.... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 23:25:46 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Blackmoor Problems At 06:31 PM 9/7/02 -0400, you wrote: > > Wasn't it the *gnolls* that were created much later, due to experiments by > Nithian wizards? Yep. Gn- from gnome; -oll from Troll= Gnoll. Original sources have the gnolls as a crossbreed (later specified to Nithian experimentation) of Gnomes and Trolls. > What is the problem with trolls, other than what's been already mentioned > with regards to Beastmen? Nothing that I can think of. In fact, Gaz7 mentions that Trolls are one of the ancient races (like Giants), although this has never been followed up on (in fact, seems to have been dismissed altogether) in later products. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 6 Sep 2002 to 7 Sep 2002 (#2002-234) **************************************************************