Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 4 Dec 2002 to 5 Dec 2002 (#2002-314) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 06/12/2002, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 13 messages totalling 600 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Addakia, Yezchamenid, and Nithia 2. MYSTARA-L Digest - 3 Dec 2002 to 4 Dec 2002 (#2002-313) 3. Karameikan Humanoid Biases 4. Marilenev Rebellion (2) 5. ThunderRift 6. Unsavory Facts About Elves (2) 7. Book of Artifacts for Mystara 8. [jdaly@friend.ly.net: FW: Rejected posting 9. Arcane Biotechnology (was elves) (2) 10. Isle of Dread/Kopru ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:13:45 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Addakia, Yezchamenid, and Nithia Francisco V. Navarro V wrote: > Hail ancient Mystarans! > > With all this discussion and speculation of the ancient Addakian empire, and > consulting the maps, I began to wonder: where did the ancient Nithian empire > fit on the ancient Known World map? Nithia was in the exact spot where now is the Alasiyan Desert. > They must have been somewhere where they could establish Ylaruam and > Thothia. Surely, they were not on the Alphatian continent, since the two > civilizations existed at the same time. They must have also been in contact > with the northeastern areas of Davania, where the Milenian Empire existed, > and the two civilizations had their bitter rivalry. And the Nithians may > have also come into contact with the Taymorans, now under the Sea of Dread. > And if the Addakians were in the northwest of Davania, where does that leave > the Nithians? The Nithians started from the valley of the Nithia river (whose only remaining trace is the Ust-Urt in Makistan, and its underground course under the desert). You can find a map of Nithia at its very early age in my Taymoran website (modified from Mystaros' map). Taymora was to the south-west of Nithia, where now are Karameikos and Ierendi. The Milenians came into existence much later, since they derived from a Nithian colony in former Taymoran lands (the Traldar). Milenians and Nithians coexisted only for a couple centuries before the destruction of Nithia. The extent of the Nithian Empire in not much known. They certainly arrived to the Savage Baronies, and perhaps even to the Nearhuman Kingdoms area to the west, and to Thotia to the East. To the south, they probably did not colonize Davania--though they might have had contacts with the Milenians right before the destruction of Nithia, and to the north they colonized the Northern Reaches. I think the Milenian-Nithian rivalry arised in the Hollow World itself, when the Milenians suddenly appeared "near" the Nithian border. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 01:22:00 -0800 From: Darth Darknerd Subject: Re: MYSTARA-L Digest - 3 Dec 2002 to 4 Dec 2002 (#2002-313) I think the first thing about gnolls, given their height, would be fear for Traladarans, shock for Thyatians. Most would run away, guards would be called out to slay the beast. Traladarans would be so afraid because of the stories and legends. If there was a major threat from Gnolls, I imagine many would unite against them, with religous fervor. IMC, gnolls stay up in the mountains, and so the both Traladrans/Thyatians are unexposed to them. (Though, this could change once the tribes unite with von Hendriks and his bugbear armies...) As with most humanoids, I think most would be inclined to slay them outright. Given our wonderful history of intolerance, I don't think humanoids would be considered anything other than "monsters" or savages. Some civilized folk might be inclined to trade or negoiate with humanoids, but these folk could be quickly thought of as traitors, collaborators, and surely that will not lead to a healthy life. It mostly depends also on the culture as well. Perhaps entrepeneur types of Thyatians might consider using humanoids as a good source of slave labor. Slavery might be outlawed, but this would doubtfully extend beyond human/demi-humans. Also, many might see the savages (humanoids) as nothing more than animals, and you don't consider pack animals and horses to be slavery (though Chevall might dispute that...). Traladarans might have a different view, as they have lived in the land for the longest time. They might have grown used to the humanoids as a competitive force. And so, they might not kill them outright, but they would fetch the authority to deal with them and keep the sword ready. I'm not sure how gnomes, elves, dwarves will deal with them. I suppose it might be indifference on the part of dwarves/gnomes, but see them a threat to mining and other operations, especially trade. Elves might have a more personal prejudice as some humanoids might have caused harm to nature and to innocent sentient life. IMC, I have the Calarii as more agressive. There was a tribe that followed the ways of the Gentle Folk and left the clan to form their own called the Linarii. The Linarii were utterly decimated by humanoid raiders, and the Calarii always remember that, and uphold their militant beliefs. One of these Calarii would ask the humanoid to leave and be on the defense, but wouldn't slay them out right. > ATTACHMENT part 5 message/rfc822 > Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:02:20 +0100 > From: Felix Holtschoppen > Subject: Karameikan Humanoid Biases > > Hi, > I was wondering what the rural population of > Karameikos might think > concerning the beastmen mentioned in "The song of > Halav". Who were they? In > the eyes of the traladaran believer, I mean. Would > the common Traladaran > kill every furcovered humanoid on sight in religious > fervor? Gnolls only? > What about bugbears or, travelling to other > countries rakasta, lupins, etc.? > Any comments? > > Felix > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 01:22:25 -0800 From: Darth Darknerd Subject: Re: Karameikan Humanoid Biases I think the first thing about gnolls, given their height, would be fear for Traladarans, shock for Thyatians. Most would run away, guards would be called out to slay the beast. Traladarans would be so afraid because of the stories and legends. If there was a major threat from Gnolls, I imagine many would unite against them, with religous fervor. IMC, gnolls stay up in the mountains, and so the both Traladrans/Thyatians are unexposed to them. (Though, this could change once the tribes unite with von Hendriks and his bugbear armies...) As with most humanoids, I think most would be inclined to slay them outright. Given our wonderful history of intolerance, I don't think humanoids would be considered anything other than "monsters" or savages. Some civilized folk might be inclined to trade or negoiate with humanoids, but these folk could be quickly thought of as traitors, collaborators, and surely that will not lead to a healthy life. It mostly depends also on the culture as well. Perhaps entrepeneur types of Thyatians might consider using humanoids as a good source of slave labor. Slavery might be outlawed, but this would doubtfully extend beyond human/demi-humans. Also, many might see the savages (humanoids) as nothing more than animals, and you don't consider pack animals and horses to be slavery (though Chevall might dispute that...). Traladarans might have a different view, as they have lived in the land for the longest time. They might have grown used to the humanoids as a competitive force. And so, they might not kill them outright, but they would fetch the authority to deal with them and keep the sword ready. I'm not sure how gnomes, elves, dwarves will deal with them. I suppose it might be indifference on the part of dwarves/gnomes, but see them a threat to mining and other operations, especially trade. Elves might have a more personal prejudice as some humanoids might have caused harm to nature and to innocent sentient life. IMC, I have the Calarii as more agressive. There was a tribe that followed the ways of the Gentle Folk and left the clan to form their own called the Linarii. The Linarii were utterly decimated by humanoid raiders, and the Calarii always remember that, and uphold their militant beliefs. One of these Calarii would ask the humanoid to leave and be on the defense, but wouldn't slay them out right. > ATTACHMENT part 5 message/rfc822 > Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:02:20 +0100 > From: Felix Holtschoppen > Subject: Karameikan Humanoid Biases > > Hi, > I was wondering what the rural population of > Karameikos might think > concerning the beastmen mentioned in "The song of > Halav". Who were they? In > the eyes of the traladaran believer, I mean. Would > the common Traladaran > kill every furcovered humanoid on sight in religious > fervor? Gnolls only? > What about bugbears or, travelling to other > countries rakasta, lupins, etc.? > Any comments? > > Felix > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:49:54 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Marilenev Rebellion --- John Calvin ha scritto: > Thanks to all for the comments - even to Giulio ;p > THey have helped stir up > some more ideas. > > I suppose that somehow we could use this idea also in connection to the alternate view on Stefan Karameikos that I wrote some time ago. The link to my old article is: http://dnd.starflung.com/dkstefan.html If you use this view on Stefan, he could also directly control the Cult of Halav, or he could have been responsible of the revolt. Moreover, in this scenario Magda could be the leader of the Traladarans against the evil Stefan. So the protection of the young child of Magda could be the start of a major campaign, that could go on for years and end when the PCs defeat Stefan Karameikos and seize the throne again for the young man, destined to rule over Traladara. Or, until the PCs defeat Stefan and decide that they desire the throne for themselves... ===== Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis "We poor few forged as brothers in this furnace will emerge as the steel of future generations" -- from "Legionary's Prayers", by Ionaos Nolan ______________________________________________________________________ Per te Blu American Express è gratis! http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://www.americanexpress.it/land_yahoo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:40:56 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: ThunderRift --- Shawn Johnson wrote: > It would be pretty difficult and messy to > mesh the two valleys > together because Thunder Rift is significantly > different (& larger) than the > Lost Valley of Hutaaka. The Lost Valley is > described in detail in B10 (the > map even shows positions of individual shrines) and > Thunder Rift is equally > detailed. You can always blend the two, if you > want, but the changes are > going to have to be pretty drastic. There are > plenty of places in various > mountain ranges to place it though---just remember > it's kinda big though (at > least 5 miles wide and 20 long, I think). Ah, but you misread my original post. Remember that before the Gnoll invasions, the Hutakaans had settlements all over Traladara. What I am suggesting is that the Hutakaans opened or discovered the portal near modern day Bywater, Karameikos into Thunder Rift, and led colonizing expeditions into that Valley. This is just one theory to strenghten the link between Mystara and Thunder Rift, and it also provides more information about what the Hutakaans of Traladara were up to. Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 05:15:04 -0800 From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" Subject: Re: Unsavory Facts About Elves > Actually that is not a contradiction. Because elves and humans can still breed just that offspring will be elvish or human not a mixture. Therefore they can be part elf by blood but will not at all be elven, or an elf could have human blood but will not at all be human. > I must stress that we are talkeing semantics here. The concept of species in biology is very complicated and quite ephemerial but in the simplest way of putting it- if elves and humans can breed true, they are not different species but different forms of the same species. The suggestion that the mother (or father) will govern the form of the offspring has biological groundings (if someone wants the actual mehcanism I will not give it on this list...). Back to the GAZ series, I think that the "elven blood" solution was part of the OD&D way of "keeping it simple" and not adding hybrid races. I like the concept of people with a tint of elven blood (the Yavi, the Glantrian ambasador to Karameikos) but remember that if someone has just a tint of elvish blood that means that one of his anccestors is a half elf... (no matter what being a half-elf means). Morphail --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 05:21:56 -0800 From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" Subject: Re: Book of Artifacts for Mystara Hey Kit! I have "the Book of Artifacts" and while it is a decent read, most artifacts are very world based. The Book of Wonderous Inventions is a lot more mystaran/greyhalkian and much more fun IMO (not much game usage though...). Bye Morphail "Francisco V. Navarro V" wrote:Hail Mystarans! Does the "Book of Artifacts" contain any material specific or suitable for Mystara? I have an opportunity to acquire a copy and I'm not sure if it will be worth it. Kit Navarro Glantrian Collector ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 05:32:54 -0800 From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" Subject: Re: Unsavory Facts About Elves Lots of fantasy genetics...\ You either presume that elvishness is a gene or a gene combination that is sex dependant. It is all possible in comparison with human genetics. There is no reason not to believe (in a fantasy game) that a single gene will cause longevity, exeptional eyesite and other minor effects like eye and ear shape. If so, elves are extremely close to humans genetically and probably have diverged from not-elven-humans not to many thousands of years ago, maybe just 6000 years ago when Ordana "made" the elves. Is Ordana an immortal who specialise in transgenic humans? I think not. But if fantasy-genetics is the current fade, why not arcane biotechnology? Have fun Morphail David Knott wrote:Using my fantasy genetics skill -- your PC would have the genetic combination Xe Yh -- by the rules I came up with, he would be an elf. So I will assume that he simply identifies more with his human side that with his elven side for some reason. If his mother has some human ancestry that she did not own up to, it is possible for your PC to have the combination Xh Yh -- which would make him fully human except for cosmetic traits inherited from his elven ancestry. The former combination would make all of his offspring by that Alfheim elf woman true elves (Xe Xe for the girls, Xe Yh for the boys), with the boys carrying more human traits to future generations. The latter combi- nation would produce the same offspring as would be expected from a mating between a full-blooded elf and a full-blooded human, except that your PC's genetic contribution would greatly add to the general elven appearance in general and the Belcadiz appearance in particular. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 05:49:41 -0800 From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" Subject: Re: [jdaly@friend.ly.net: FW: Rejected posting I really can't understand why someone would leave the list only beacuase he found one or two posts to be ditasteful. When we chose Geoff as list master we all agreed to certain ground rules and that he would monitor them to his best judgement. The line that started with "defecating elves" turned out to be a discussion about elves and their link to humans. I think it was my post that changed the direction, but even if It hadn't change do you really think that people would discuss it for much longer? I hope mister Daly who has contributed much to the list would concider trying to reconsider, unless he had other reasons for leaving it. Morphail (Ohad Shaham) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 07:44:43 -0800 From: John Calvin Subject: Arcane Biotechnology (was elves) > If so, elves are extremely close to humans genetically and probably have > diverged from not-elven-humans not to many thousands of years ago, maybe just > 6000 years ago when Ordana "made" the elves. > Is Ordana an immortal who specialise in transgenic humans? I think not. > But if fantasy-genetics is the current fade, why not arcane biotechnology? Why not indeed? In fact we already have several examples of mortal wizards practicing the art. The Nithians created the "beastmen/gnolls". If you believe the reports about the Alphers and lycanthropy (I have my own opinion) then the Alpher mages are another example. The Herathians created several servitor races, as did the Carnifex before them. -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:17:59 -0800 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Marilenev Rebellion > I suppose that somehow we could use this idea also > in connection to the alternate view on Stefan > Karameikos that I wrote some time ago. > The link to my old article is: > http://dnd.starflung.com/dkstefan.html > If you use this view on Stefan, he could also > directly control the Cult of Halav, or he could have > been responsible of the revolt. Yeah, I've always loved that idea of an "evil" Stefan Karameikos. Or if not exactly evil, then at least less good. Perhaps Stefan had plants in the Cult of Halav that had orders to go out and "test" his new subjects (he would have established these agents long before he made his move to claim Traladara). Any of his subjects that took on to the idea that they were Halav reborn were then marked for destruction by Stefan. After the actual revolt the cult would switch its alliance over to Stefan and claim him to be the true Halav reborn. This seems like a very plausible "backstabbing-Thyatian" scheme (no offence to Captain Scaevola). > Moreover, in this scenario Magda could be > the leader of the Traladarans against the evil Stefan. > So the protection of the young child of Magda could > be the start of a major campaign, that could go on > for years and end when the PCs defeat Stefan > Karameikos > and seize the throne again for the young man, destined > to rule over Traladara. This is exactly where I want to start my new campaign. The PCs can see for themselves the split in the Cult of Halav and perhaps even choose sides. They can also discover that Magda is pregnant. Depending upon who's side the PCs are on, they can choose to either protect the child, or try to track it down and kill it. > Or, until the PCs defeat Stefan and decide that > they desire the throne for themselves... If they are backstabbing-Thyatians...not that there's anything wrong with that! ;) -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:48:42 -0600 From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: Arcane Biotechnology (was elves) >> But if fantasy-genetics is the current fade, why not arcane >> biotechnology? > Why not indeed? In fact we already have several examples of mortal > wizards practicing the art. The Nithians created the > "beastmen/gnolls". If you believe the reports about the Alphers and > lycanthropy (I have my own opinion) then the Alpher mages are another > example. The Herathians created several servitor races, as did the > Carnifex before them. And the Emerondians, as well, are highly proficient as that is their specialty. Eric Anondson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:22:55 -0400 From: Paul Westermeyer Subject: Re: Isle of Dread/Kopru > Ummm... anyone with that book willing to send me a scan of the info? > I need it pretty quickly and hunting down the out of print source may > take awhile. Someone already helped me out, thanks to everyone for the help! :) -- "We sleep safely in our beds, only because rough men stand guard in the night, ready to visit violence upon those who would do us harm." H.G. Wells. Paul Westermeyer, westermeyer.3@osu.edu Phd Candidate, History, Ohio State University Instructor, Humanities, Columbus State Community College ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 4 Dec 2002 to 5 Dec 2002 (#2002-314) **************************************************************