Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 19 Dec 2002 to 20 Dec 2002 (#2002-329) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 21/12/2002, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 16 messages totalling 731 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Vorloi Clan Perspective (4) 2. D&D (Thyatis) vs. Femminism (5) 3. What are demographics of Specularuam? (2) 4. Specularuam GPLimit/Assets? 5. D&D3E Stats for Specularum 6. Fwd: Re: Waiting for Pages missing in ESD 7. B6: Theosius, the sculpter 8. Teleporting Arch? why not ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:20:07 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Vorloi Clan Perspective Jacob Skytte wrote: > >> Unfortunately, there are gaps and contradictary, such >> as Vorloi and the presence of statesmen and senator(s) >> in Karameikos, or X6 Quaqmire, etc. > > Gaps and contradictions are everywhere, when you start using the old adventure modules with the later GAZs. That's just a fact, and one that menas you have to flex your creativity a little. Several people have offered reasonable ideas for the Vorloi, and as for the statesman/senator, can't you just use a title from GAZ 1 and call him a Court Lord/Landed Lord/whatever? Moreover, "statesmen" do exist in Karameikos, as ministers and bureaucrats. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:52:29 -0000 From: Colin Davidson Subject: Re: D&D (Thyatis) vs. Femminism ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Furneaux" To: Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] D&D (Thyatis) vs. Femminism > Cause it is based on rome and the romans didn't think of women as equil. Hell > we still don't put women on the front lines. Why then should it be strange that > they *shouldn't* be warriors and such in thyatis? > > I know that everything today tends to be *Politically correct* but what is > wrong with a fantasy society that has such elements of historical realism. It > adds depth and character to the world and provides many roleplaying opitunities > that do not exist in an equil society, or more to the point a society that has > always been equil (which I think cannot be said about any society). Remember aswell that Thyatis, to an extent, defines itself as not being Alphatia. Such negative concepts of national identity should be quite familiar to anyone in Europe, as they're the mainstay of many nationalist movements. They're also the defining characteristics that can bring a multi-ethnic nation together, or tear it apart. Thyatis was born as an empire at the expense of Alphatia. So many of the things that are Thyatian are distinctly to to make that empire not Alphatian. Their naming, their insistence on military and theocratic power in addition to magical, their rejection of Alphatian culture and art, etc. Alphatians are logically egalitarian with regard to the sexes; Thyatians aren't. > Don't get me wrong, I'm not sexist, just that I can't see why there should be a > problem with a society scripted as male dominated. If you can have a female > dominated society in RPGs why not a male one? You don't have to play it as > such. And it is a *historical fantasy* RPG not modern reality. IMO there is > about as much of a case for D&D promoteing sexism by having a male dominated > society as there is for D&D promoteing satanism because it has demons etc. and > we all know what a load of bull that is. I entirely agree. Besides, such concepts add to the tensions that make a game world interesting to play in. Many of the more rewarding character concepts will incorporate this kind of thing (e.g. a freed Esterhold slave, a Hattian woman warrior, an abandoned Shadow Elf baby, etc.). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:02:37 +0100 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: D&D (Thyatis) vs. Femminism ----- Original Message ----- From: "JJJ" THEN it comes to Mystara... WHY, IN THE NAME OF THANATOS, WOULD A SOCIETY WHOSE GREATEST IMMORTAL IS VANYA ,HAVE RESISTANCES TO EMPRESSES, WARRIOR-MAIDENS AND THE LIKE?????? Me too found always a stupid thing that Thyatians were sexist, being Vanya their greatest Immortal and being Vanya a warrioress...Anyway i always thought that sexism was only the old idea, while the modern empire was not sexist at all (supported by the church of Vanya) and had women in the army. Just some groups, as the Storm Soldiers, are really sexist nowadays, IMHO. I always played Thyatis this way and i think that this was the feeling of the gazeteer too.. Sexism should be considered the old idea slowly disappearing, equality the political correctness of the empire, even if probably fighting is not considered a good profession for a rich and noble girl (but Stefania Torion didn't mind about this, either) About evil matriarcal society, this is not just a problem of D&D but a result of a many century old propaganda against matriarcal society and any idea of political power for women, as you can see in greek miths (were the strong women are always evil) and in the arthurian stories (were the only strong women, Morgaine le fay, is evil). Besides i think drow are an absurd society even for this reason: in the reality matriarcal society were always much more peaceful than patriarcal ones, and the mith of the evil matriarcal society (that we can find in a lot of ancient miths) is just a lot of stupid and false propaganda... bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 03:34:32 -0800 From: Darth Darknerd Subject: Re: Vorloi Clan Perspective > ATTACHMENT part 6 message/rfc822 > Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:43:28 +0100 > From: Jacob Skytte > Subject: Re: Vorloi Clan Perspective > > Darth Darknerd wrote: > > > > I checked out > http://dnd.starflung.com/tralhist.html, > > and I couldn't find mention of Vorloi. Overall I > like > > a lot of the material, I find it interesting, but > I am > > cautious to stray off the cannon path. > > Well, to each his own I suppose, but can't most work > be cosidered fleshing out of canon, something I > assume you do yourself? If you like it and it's > interesting, what's to stop you from using the parts > you like? Canon police? :) Yeah, I know. I have my own historical notes from Hollow World material, modules, as well as Gazetteers. I would want to derive works from this as well as the Dorian gypsies that are online. I try to add material roughly inline with canon, and sometime fresh new material. Both are good. Different audiences, but both are appreciated. > > Unfortunately, there are gaps and contradictary, > such > > as Vorloi and the presence of statesmen and > senator(s) > > in Karameikos, or X6 Quaqmire, etc. > > Gaps and contradictions are everywhere, when you > start using the old adventure modules with the later > GAZs. That's just a fact, and one that menas you > have to flex your creativity a little. Several > people have offered reasonable ideas for the Vorloi, > and as for the statesman/senator, can't you just use > a title from GAZ 1 and call him a Court Lord/Landed > Lord/whatever? The older modules are underdeveloped and laughable, but they contain a level of raw creativity that is much valued. IMHO, I think current modules are rather dry and boring to read. I could use another title, but the plot elements are too vague. Why would Simion go talk with the Senator figure and need to be escorted. What was so urgent and important. This is absent from the module (B6, Employment section). > > Jacob Skytte > scythe@wanadoo.dk > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:44:24 +0100 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Vorloi Clan Perspective ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darth Darknerd" > I checked out http://dnd.starflung.com/tralhist.html, > and I couldn't find mention of Vorloi. Overall I like > a lot of the material, I find it interesting, but I am > cautious to stray off the cannon path. I tried to stay near to canon as far as was possible in my history of Traladara, the problem was that really in canon there is not so much about the history of the nation after Halav and the beastmen and before the thyatian conquest, so i had to invent a lot... Anyway references to Vorloi family are those (the most important are the last four): 1496 BC Battle of the Night. Vampires defeated in eastern Traladara. Foundation of two new united clans: Luthescu (now Lutescu, from Lutheth and Sculov clan, based in Rugalov) and Vartoy (now Vorloi, from Vath and Toy clan, based in Vetu, nowadays Rugalov keep). 1000 BC Gnolls attack Lavv and Krakatos but fail to conquer the two town. But they ravage the countryside and conquer Marilenev and Dmitros. Milen Milev leads is clan to a long migration in the sea of dread (they are the ancestor of Milenian empire), just a few day before the gnolls lay siege on Mirros. Vorloi and Lutescu clans come in aid of the Radu in Mirros but are defeated and retreat to join Halav, Petra and Zirchev in Lavv and Krakatos. Mirros fall in the hand of the gnoll by the end of the year. Only Lavv, Krakatos and eastern Traladara resist now. 484 BC Kurjak Radu rebels and attacks Lavv. He kill the queen and all his family and burn Lavv to the ground. Lajos Ivanov lead Vemonov, Dimitrevich, Markovitch, Chardastes Halarov, Torenescu, Lutescu and Vorloi against Radu, Sulescu and Halaveff . Kurjak Radu is killed and his allies defeated. Lajos Ivanov became king of Traladara. Halaveff family maintains the rule of Halag, fighting with Dimitrevich and Markovitch in Luln. Hilov family survives near Lavv as a little family of landowners till present times, but no longer has part in Traladaran politics. From now kings and queens always rules in Mirros, that will no longer belong to Radu. The Radu family maintains the ownership of much lands around the city and found the veiled society to fight his enemy in the dark. Lavv is infested by undead and humanoids. 296 BC Cartha Radu, aided by Thyatian agents and Lutescu and Vorloi families (who has strong commercial ties with Thyatis) kill Arkam Ivanov, but his son and heir Fyodor Ivanov defeats his enemies and becomes the new king of Traladara. The Radu are cast off the council of nobles. Fyodor marries Arya Marilenev. 103 BC Alexander Vorloi elected king of Traladara. Alexander is half Thyatian. Bad relations and skirmishes with Alphatians. Alexander marries Irina Lutescu. Pro Alphatians families are quite upset by the king's policy. Torenescu became pro Thyatians. 84 BC After the natural death of Alexander pro Alphatians families (Ivanov, Vemonov and Dimitrevich) defeat Vorloi, Lutescu and Torenescu pro Thyatians families with the help of Alphatians wizards 3 AC Thyatians attack Traladara but are defeated by Stephan Ivanov. Vorloi family escape in Kerendas and will became a Thyatian family. Stephan Ivanov marries Jena Chardates Halarov. 970 AC Stephan Karameikos lead his expedition to Traladara. Vorloi returns to Traladara bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 04:07:26 -0800 From: Darth Darknerd Subject: What are demographics of Specularuam? Hi, I looked at both GAZ1 and Kingdom of Karameikos, and absent of this is the demographics. Like how many are human, elf, gnome, hin, etc. and how many humans are Traladaran vs Thyatian vs Mixed, etc. Was this ever covered anywhere? In Joshua's books? - Joaquin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 04:32:38 -0800 From: Darth Darknerd Subject: Specularuam GPLimit/Assets? Hi, In D&D3E, the modules and Dungeon mag sometimes spec out a community (hamlet, town, city, etc.). In there, there are statistics for a gp limit and a amount of assets as well. This would be example: Fogly (Small Hamlet): Standard; AL NG; 250gp limit; Assets 2500gp; Population 850; Mixed (human 79%, gnome 10%, elf 3%) Would any wiseone's out there have an idea? - Joaquin PS - I am doing this for my D&D3E Veiled Society conversion (Module B6). __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:01:48 -0500 From: Castille Baromon de Preto Subject: Re: What are demographics of Specularuam? > > From: Darth Darknerd > > I looked at both GAZ1 and Kingdom of Karameikos, and > absent of this is the demographics. Like how many are > human, elf, gnome, hin, etc. and how many humans are > Traladaran vs Thyatian vs Mixed, etc. > > Was this ever covered anywhere? In Joshua's books? > Poor Wizards Almanac, If nobody posts the information before I get home, I will send it out. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 05:10:44 -0800 From: Darth Darknerd Subject: D&D3E Stats for Specularum Hi, Well. I just winged it and try to come up with a wild guess for Specularum before WotI, i.e. GAZ1 era: ------------------------------------------------------ Specularum (Large City): standard; AL LN; 225,000 gp limit; Assets 756,000 gp; Population 63,480; Mixed (88% human*, 2% dwarf, 3% elf**, 2% gnome, 4% halflings, 1% other) Authority Figures: Lord Lucas Tormandros, the Townsmaster, male human Ftr4; Duke Stefan Karameikos III, male human Ftr15 Other Notable Figures: Aleksander Torenescu, leader of the Tornescu clan, male human Ftr1; Boris Tornescu, Tornescu clan, male human Ftr3; Anton Radu, leader of the Radu clan, male human Rog12; Philip Vorlio, leader of the Vorloi clan, male human Ftr3; Lord Dmitrios, Prince of Beggars, male human Ftr4; Aleksyvev Nikelnevich, Partriarch of the Church of Traladara, male human Clr11; Sergyve, Cult of Halav, male human Clr9; Lord Olliver Jowett, Patriarch of The Church of Karameikos in Specularum, Master of the Order of the Griffon, Clr18 * 86% of humans are Traladaran, 12% are Thyatian, 2% other ** 97% of elves are Calarii, 2% are Vyalia, 1% other ------------------------------------------------------ What do people think? Is it on the mark? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:14:46 -0500 From: Castille Baromon de Preto Subject: Re: Vorloi Clan Perspective > > From: Francesco Defferrari > > 1496 BC Battle of the Night. <> > 970 AC Stephan Karameikos lead his expedition to Traladara. Vorloi returns > to Traladara > Good work, this type of "fleshing out" is the main basis of anyones' campaign. Plus with a history like this, are their still any Nosferatu in Ruglav that remember the Callarii Elves invading their borders? These 'non-canon' articles are what makes Mystara what it is. Then you can run one campaign long enough to start over with a different view or historical story line. Many items are left out to the imagination, ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:04:48 +0100 From: Federico Kaftal Subject: Fwd: Re: Waiting for Pages missing in ESD I keep all of you updated, FYI Federico Kaftal ----Original Message Follows---- From: "SVgames support" To: "Federico Kaftal" Subject: Re: Waiting for Pages missing in ESD Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 09:19:10 -0800 Frederico - We have not received a batch of corrected files for some time. I believe the publisher was creating a large batch to submit to us all at once. This should be received soon. Tyler Customer Service SVGames.com - A Gaming Tradition ----- Original Message ----- From: "Federico Kaftal" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:06 AM Subject: Waiting for Pages missing in ESD > Dear sirs, > after your first e-mail announcing that you would contact the dealer in > charge of the ESD scanning to have them look into the bugs I reported, I > didn't hear from you anymore. Could you please solicitate your vendor? > Scanning those few pages doesn't require more than a few hours, not to > mention weeks! I know what I'm saying, because I've worked for years in the > field of software localization, and I had this sort of debugging done more > than once, in a few hours if necessary. > We're talking about scanning some nine or ten pages, without any art > make-up, and updating two PDF files with a few more sheets... > > Thank you for updating me soon. > > Federico Kaftal > > (I re-attach my previous messages for your convenience): > ________________________________________________________ > > > Dear sirs, > > I have just downloaded another ESD: TSR930ESDPDF.1 (GAZ7 - The Northern > Reaches) and after joining it with the split free file, I see that the whole > large, full color double-sided map of the lands of Ostland, Vestland and > Soderfiord is entirely missing. > > What's happening? Did you sell us incomplete copies? Note that the Northern > Reaches Gazetteer is not at all a rare object: there are shrinkwrapped > copies on sale at Amazon. So, why is the big double-sided map missing? > I attach my previous mail for your convenience. > > Regards, > Federico Kaftal > > _________________ > Previous message: > _________________ > > Dear sirs, > > I have just downloaded ESD TSR9272ESD.PDF (The Dymrak Dread) and I notice > that there's one page missing: > > At the end of the booklet there's a dungeon map obviously consisting of > eight pages: only pages I-VII are there, the upper right page of the map has > not been scanned. > > Would you please make sure to add the page to the ESD and to send me the > missing page by e-mail as well? > > Thanks for your answer. > > Federico Kaftal > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_eliminateviruses_3mf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:01:25 +0200 From: Solmyr Subject: Re: D&D (Thyatis) vs. Femminism > > THEN it comes to Mystara... WHY, IN THE NAME OF THANATOS, WOULD A > > SOCIETY WHOSE GREATEST IMMORTAL IS VANYA ,HAVE RESISTANCES TO EMPRESSES, > > WARRIOR-MAIDENS AND THE LIKE?????? > > > Well, the goddess Athena was female, but ancient Greek women didn't have a lot of rights either... Plus, who's to say there aren't female warriors in Thyatis? I'm fairly sure there are some. As for Empresses, well, perhaps Imperial succession is based primarily on the male line, and female succession only if there are no male heirs. That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the female warrior Immortal. -- Solmyr of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi World of Enothril website - http://enothril.topcities.com/ The Archmage's Tower - http://www.geocities.com/solmyr.geo/ "War does not determine who is right. War determines who is left." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:45:20 -0500 From: Castille Baromon de Preto Subject: Re: D&D (Thyatis) vs. Femminism > > > THEN it comes to Mystara... WHY, IN THE NAME OF THANATOS, WOULD A > > > SOCIETY WHOSE GREATEST IMMORTAL IS VANYA ,HAVE RESISTANCES TO EMPRESSES, > > > WARRIOR-MAIDENS AND THE LIKE?????? > > > > > It is not a question of the Emperess being female, it is more of a question that she is the daughter of the last Emperor before Thincol. Thincol would rather have his direct bloodline rule the empire. If she ruled and remarried, then there would be another bloodline that could contest for rulership of the empire. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:16:44 -0800 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: D&D (Thyatis) vs. Femminism > > > THEN it comes to Mystara... WHY, IN THE NAME OF THANATOS, WOULD A > > > SOCIETY WHOSE GREATEST IMMORTAL IS VANYA ,HAVE RESISTANCES TO EMPRESSES, > > > WARRIOR-MAIDENS AND THE LIKE?????? This in fact is not true. Having just re-read (several times I might add) my Thyatis gaz for another project (I'm designing NWN templates for Thyatian armor and commonly found NPCs), I would like to point out that there are two fighting orders listed near the end of that resource that are both dedicated to Vanya. The first is the Order of the Grey Lady. Women are welcomed. The second is The Grey Sisterhood, which is a fighting order that only accepts female members. So, while it might be true that portions (great or small - Hattians come to mind) of Thyatian society are "male-centric" it is also quite clear that other portions are not. -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:46:20 -0800 From: Darth Darknerd Subject: B6: Theosius, the sculpter Hi all, I've been busy with converting module B6, and it is a daunting task to hammer out all these statistics. I wish I could afford one of those computer aided D&D3E programs. (I might prototype my own tool in a spread sheet format) I thought I would detail at least a small snippet to see what people think. This is one NPC, that hadn't any statistics at all, but had some description. I added 3E stats and a last name. :-) ------------------------------------------------------ Theosius Dubei, the sculptor: Male human Exp7; CR 4; Medium-size humanoid (human); HD 7d6+7; hp 35; Init -1 (Dex); Spd 40 ft.; AC 9 (-1 Dex); Atk +5 melee (1d4-1, dagger, Str); AL NG; SV Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +7; Str 9, Dex 9, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 16 Skills and Feats: Appraise +11, Bluff +9, Craft (Sculpting) +23, Diplomancy +20, Knowledge (Karameikos) +6, Intimidate +9, Listen +3, Profession (Woodcutter) +10, Sense Motive +16, Spot +3; Skill Focus (Craft), Skill Focus (Diplomancy), Skill Focus (Sense Motive), Skill Focus (Knowledge), Skill Focus (Appraise) ------------------------------------------------------ As Theosius is a reknown scultor in Specularum for the nobles, I made him an expert class at 7th. - Joaquin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:20:05 +0100 From: DM Subject: Re: Teleporting Arch? why not On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Thibault Sarlat <thibault.sarlat@WANADOO.FR> asked:

<<What would it take to make a teleporting arch which could allow hundreds of people (troops) to go from one place on Mystara to another.
Would it be some kind of minor Gate made permanent? What kind of drawbacks could it generate? >>

According to the rules in RC/Gaz3/DotE, in order to create such a thing u need to enchant 1 gate with Mass Teleport/Minor gate (suppose it's an 8th level spell, since it doesn't allow travel through planes so it's not as powerful as Gate).

The chances of success (assuming it's the first time one tries) for a 20th level wizard with 18 Intelligence are:

(18+20) x2 - (5 x 8) = 76 - 40 = 36% (on d100)

Pretty slim, iMHO. You should be at least 30th level to have a decent chance:

100 - 40 = 60%

Gate stays open for 1 turn and everybody can cross it and be teleported to another location chosen by the one who activates the portal (must be a place he has seen obviously). The cost for this experiment, supposing the spell is not permanent but only useable 3 times per day is:

8000 x 75% = 6000
600 x 33 = 19800
6000 + 19800 = 25.800 gp (not that much after all, give the frequency of use)

It will take 33 days to enchant one gate with this spell.
Of course one must also find the rare and appropriate material to craft such a gate, and IMC we have the rule that the gate must be actually CRAFTED using the proper general skill (stonmasonry or whatever) while it's been enchanted. So if the wizard doesn't know the skill, he must hire somebody to craft the item, and this person (or whoever crafts the item) must make a two skill checks thrice: if in one of the three phases both skill checks fail, the object is flawed and will be destroyed in the enchanting process making the whole effort useless.
So that's about it for what concerns the rules in OD&D.

As for the impact on the world, it certainly would be something every warmongering leader would have, but it's not so easily accomplished since he must find a wizard with this spell and this means the wizard must be high level and willing to cooperate ;)
Also if such a thing was created, there would obviously be attempts to conquer its possession or to destroy it from other nations, given the fact it can be used to dispatch troops in the heart of their territories, rendering all their border defenses useless.
Finally, all places of importance will become (if they're not already) to be protected from scrying via magical wards AND to be off limits to anybody for fear of being the next target of these travel gates.

All in all, it's a fascinating scenario, something similar to the setting of the Sovereign Stone (from Weis & Perrin).

Cheers!

DM
Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac
Lt. Cmdr. of U.S.S. Unicorn

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you grow old because you stop playing!"

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------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 19 Dec 2002 to 20 Dec 2002 (#2002-329) ****************************************************************