Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 24 Dec 2002 to 26 Dec 2002 (#2002-333) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 27/12/2002, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 25 messages totalling 1092 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. is there something wrong with the list? (3) 2. Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (1 of 3) 3. Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (2 of 3) 4. Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (3 of 3) (4) 5. is there something wrong with the list? and PWA1 6. Holiday's in Mystara 7. LOTR II = taboo (8) 8. D&D (Thyatis) vs. Femminism 9. D&D3E Stats for Specularum (2) 10. Anyone have PWA1 Handy? 11. The Flunky prestige class (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 10:42:59 +0100 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: is there something wrong with the list? i have not received any message from the list for 3 days... Thibault Sarlat. Techniques de l'Ing=E9nieur Port: 06 84 92 32 55 Fax: 05 56 96 85 24 www.techniques-ingenieur.fr ICQ 16622177. Personal homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr=20 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 18:21:09 +0800 From: "Francisco V. Navarro V" Subject: Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (1 of 3) Hail Mystarans! Here is my very untimely offering for the Christmas season, "Arcana Mystara: Demonology." Note that this is still a rough (v.1.0) version. I intend for the Arcana Mystara files to read for PCs and DMs, and a bit in character, but I thought I'd led my ideas out first for everyone to see. Comments and suggestions are welcome. Kit Navarro Mystaran Arcanist ========== Arcana Mystara: Demonology "Gehenna. Baator. Acheron. It's all extremely interesting this, what do you call it, Planescape theory of yours. But you see, theory may not be truth. What you know may not be real, and what is real, you may not know." -Master Bernabie Thrum, Master of Planar Magic at the Great School of Magic in Glantri What Do Mystarans Know About Demons? Mystarans know them as demons or fiends. They are evil and chaos creatures from the Planes, who often act in the service of the dark Immortals from the Sphere of Entropy. Immortals and Fiends The place of fiends in Immortal hierarchy is clearly stated (WotI). They are exhalted (near Immortal) creatures from the Planes who serve the Immortals from the Sphere of Entropy.* Two such Immortals of Entropy, Orcus (The Goat, Master of the Dead, Lord of Darkness, The Black Prince) and Demogorgon (The Child, Bane of Souls, The Lizard King, The Dark Lady, and in AD&D, Prince of Demons), are considered Demon Rulers, first because they are fiends themselves, and second because they are deeply involved with the affairs of fiends. Their singleminded focus with demonic matters-to the exclusion of other matters of the Sphere of Entropy-is probably the reason why neither of them has become the Hiereach of Entropy. In contrast, there is the Immortal Alphaks (The Destroyer, The Elegant, The Roaring Demon) who is both an Immortal and a Demon, but remains as involved in Entropic affairs on the Prime, as say, the Hierarchs Thanatos and Nyx. (It could be argued though that his demonic temperament will prevent him from become a full Hierarch of Entropy any time soon!) *An article from Dragon Magazine #75 "The Nine Hells" by Ed Greenwood raises the question of how evil deities such as Gruumsh, Set, and Bane interact with the denizens, particularly the ruling Dukes of Hell, in the evil planes. The issue was resolved by reassigning such non-devil deities to Acheron, Gehenna, and planes other than the Nine Hells, the home plane of devils. Actually, in Mystara, such an issue will not apply, since Immortals are not the all-powerful beings that gods are, and the role of the fiends and the Immortals of Entropy are clearly stated. Whatever Happened to. That cool jelly thing with eyes and mouths spewing yucky mush from MM1? (Juiblex the Faceless Lord) Or that demon gnoll with the flail (Yeenoghu, Demon Lord of Gnolls) or those less cool demons featured in MM2? (Baphomet, Lord of Minotaurs; Fraz-Urb'luu, Prince of Deception; Graz'zt, Demon Prince; Kostichtchie, Demon Lord; Pazuzu, Prince of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms) Do they exist in Mystara? The answer is maybe. In the case of Yeenoghu, he is not just a demon lord, but has become the full-fledged Immortal Ranivorus, Patron of Gnolls. He is still known as Yeenoghu by some (GAZ 10 "Orcs of Thar", WotI). Baphomet is probably replaced by Minoides, the Immortal Ruler of Minotaurs. (Like Yeenoghu, Baphomet may be a variant name.) In other cases, the demons may be demoted to servants or lieutenants of certain Immortals of Entropy. "By all that is sacred, child, do not speak those words with such familiarity! Call them fiends or demons or gray deceivers, but by the Immortals, do not use those unholy names, lest you wish to summon their presence and dire wrath!" The Issue of Names Why are there so many confusing names? How do we reconcile them? There was a simpler time, when demons were demons and devils were devils. (It was simple enough to create the new creatures, the daemons and demodands, who had clear names, although arguably confusing concepts.) Then there came a move to sanitize, nay, exorcise theses names, hence the neologisms of "tanar'ri"and "baatezu" and the generic term of fiends. Recently, the veil of sanitation has worn off, just when the new names have begun to stuck. Mystara vs. AD&D vs. Planescape The Mystara system (D&D Eldritchy Wizardry, WotI) has the simplest system of names for the fiends, mainly because it only includes the demons. Still, the names are clear in their descriptions and associations. The AD&D system (MM1, MM2, FF) expanded the system, to include devils and those bizarre (imo superfluous) daemons and demodands, but fails to categorize them logically. It became worse when the sanitized neologisms were introduced. The Planescape system (PS MC1 and 2, PS Faces of Evil, Guide to Hell) is the most encompassing and most organized, completing and correcting the inconsitencies of AD&D. It may not reflect Mystara exactly, but it is easily reconcilable. A Demon By Any Name So how are they reconciled? The same way Mystara MC reconciles the "aerial servant vs. haoou" and "invisible stalker vs. sshai" nomeclature. Mystarans commonly refer to demons by their Mystaran labels, while the demons call themselves by their PS names, presumably derived from their weird demonic tongues).* Planar Name | Common Mystaran Name | Other Labels Tanar'ri | Demons | Lesser Fiends Vrock | Screaming demon | Air fiend, winged fury Hezrou | Croaking demon | Swamp fiend, gobbler Glabrezu | Howling demon | Fiery fiend, four-armed horror Nalfeshnee | Groaning demon | Forest fiend, biter Marilith | Hissing demon | Water fiend, destroyer Balor | Roaring demon | Mountain fiend, manslayer Sucubbus/Incubus** | Whispering demon | Charmer, gray deceiver Of course, Mystarans who study and encounter such creatures, will know to call them by their proper planar names. *The irony of this is that the sanitized neologisms will now become demonic than human/mortal. **The Mystaran whispering demon can be both male and female, and thus are known as a sucubbus or incubus. Some say they are separate sexes, some say t hey can change sex at will. What About the Other Demons? Do bar-lgura (leaping demon), chasme (fly demon, or as I prefer, buzzing demon), babau (one-horned horror, ebony death), nabassu (death stealers), wastrilith (water lord), rutterkins, dretches, and manes exist in the Mystara setting? The answer is the same as with Juiblex: Maybe. If they do exist, most probably, Mystarans have not had significant encounters with them. If Mystarans will encounter such things, they will probably be known by their more common labels, rather than by their proper demonic names. That being said, the more obscure demons introduced in the PS settings (alkilith, bulzau, maurezhi) are probably so rare, they don't exist in the Mystara setting. The Existence of Half-Demons One most debated topic among Mystarans is the existence of the half-elf. Some say they don't exist, and mixed unions produce offspring of one race or another.* Some say they do exist, and thus mixed unions produce offspring of a mixed breed. The same argument can be applied to the existence of half-demons. Do alu-demons, cambions, and tieflings exists? Some say yes, matings of demons and non-demons produce such half-demons. Some say no, matings with demons (probably incubi and sucubi) will produce demons.* *If this were so, as with dryads and satyrs (PC1 Tall Tales of the Wee Folk), medusae and minotaurs, matings with succubi will only birth daughters, who will be sucubbi, and incubi will sire only sons, who will be incubi. ====== 1 of 3 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 18:21:15 +0800 From: "Francisco V. Navarro V" Subject: Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (2 of 3) Arcana Mystara: Demonology Spheres of Power vs. Axes of Alignments In most other settings, the axes of alignment (Good vs. Evil, Lawful vs. Chaotic) dictates cosmology, and thus the geography of the planes, producing the 19 Outer Planes system. In Mystara, the 5 Spheres of Power supercede aligments. And even within the axes of alignments, the Law-Chaos axis comes first before the Good-Evil axis.* The 19 Outer Planes system would thus not be applicable to the Mystaran setting. How would this impact the nature of the Mystaran fiends? Fiends are thus foremost, servants of Entropy (Sphere of Power), second, agents of Chaos (Law vs. Chaos), and only third, creatures of evil (Good vs. Evil). This would explain why Mystaran fiends are all demons (Chaotic Evil in AD&D terms), rather than devils or demons. This would raise two questions: First, what is the home plane of demons in the Mystara setting? Second, where (in Hell?) are the devils and other fiends? *This came about when the D&D Known World was translated into the AD&D Mystara. The Pyts and The Abyss It is stated (WotI) that Pyts is the Home Plane of many Immortals of Entropy, and that native beings to this plane include all the demons (Lesser Fiends). It makes more sense however that the many different, bickering, rival, chaotic Immortals of Entropy have Home Planes that are within or can be reached from the Plane of Pyts. That being said, it also makes sense that the demons have their own Home Planes within Pyts, probably called The Abyss.* In a related article on the Outer Planes by James Mishler in the VoP (http://dnd.starflung.com/outplane.html), Orcus is assigned to a Home Plane called Ossia. I suggest that this plane is located within, or at least connected to, Pyts and the Abyss. Demogorgon is not mentioned; he may have a parallel Home Plane, also connected to Pyts and The Abyss (but not directly to Ossia!), or he may in fact have made taken over The Abyss and made it his own Home Plane! (Did he win its rulership from Orcus? Or did Orcus destroy Demogorgon's original Home Plane, thus stranding Demogorgon among the masses of demons who make The Abyss their home?) *The only reference I have to such a name is from the D&D "Tower of Doom" and "Shadow Over Mystara" arcade game, where the fighter curses, "By the Abyss," when he is struck. ======2 of 3 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 18:21:18 +0800 From: "Francisco V. Navarro V" Subject: Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (3 of 3) Arcana Mystara: Demonology "In the centuries of wandering of our people before Landfall, our ancestors saw many planes and dimensions with nightmarish things too diabolic to even speak of!" Where in Hell are the Devils? After all that has been said about the Mystara setting (Mystaraverse) and the Spheres of Power, here are the possible answers to this question of the missing devils: Devils do not exist. This is the simplest answer (but a waste of a lot of cool ideas). An explanation for this would be, because the Sphere of Entropy embodies evil and death, and is associated with the Chaotic alignment, it would be difficult for there to be an embodiment of both evil and Lawfulness-at least within the influence of the Spheres of Power. This would suggest the next answer. Devils do not exist in the Mystaraverse, but do exist in other Dimensions. The Dimension of Myth is the first place that comes to mind and it is easy to imagine that devils walk on Laterre, in Averoigne. The original CAS stories do mention devils and demons. An implication of this is that the Immortal Nyx, whose ancient origins lead all the way back to Laterre (http://dnd.starflung.com/nyxlife.html by David Knott), may have some devilish (not demonic) connections. Personality wise, she/he does fit the bill. The Dimension of Nightmares is another place where devils may exist. This would explain why the Diaboli are so similar to devils in appearance. In fact, the role of Immortals in the Dimension of Nightmares may in fact be served by the Devil rulers! (This could lead to very powerful, cross-dimensional conflicts between Immortals and the Devils. or Nightmare Immortals!) The Vortex Dimension may also be a place where devils exist, but as with all things related to the Old Ones, it is a total mystery. The only thing clear is that if devil are on that side of the Vortex, the Old Ones are not letting the Immortals, much less the Mystarans, know about it! And of course, there are the other Dimensions, where they can exist. Forgotten Realms, Planescape, Greyhawk, etc. But if they do exist there, they why are they not here? Devils are not in the Mystaraverse (and demons are) because of the Blood War. Here are three scenarios along this theme: The demons came to the Mystaraverse to escape their impending defeat in the Blood Wars. Orcus, Demogorgon, and their demonic followers found a unique dimension where there is little or no devilish power (due to the Sphere of Entropy). Furthermore, in this dimension, they will join the ranks of the ruling powers, the Immortals, and not be mere pawns of the gods. Another scenario is that Orcus and Demogorgon did not come to the Mystaraverse intentionally. Perhaps because of some act of supreme betrayal (which may have cost them the war!), they were cast out of their dimension, and they ended up together in Mystara! (What diabolical irony!) Of course, the mysterious Old Ones may have had a hand in leading them here. A third scenario: The demons won the Blood War and have vanquished the devils (at least out of this multiverse)! Orcus and Demogorgon may have been the mastermind behind this coup. One of them found a way of vanquishing the devils, but in doing so, needing to sacrifice all the demons as well, which is ok since they're rivals anyway-unfortunately, the archrival managed to avoid destruction, and the two are stuck again for eternity! References: WotI Wrath of the Immortals MM Monster Manual FF Fiend Folio PS Planescape MC Monstrous Compendium CAS Clark Ashton-Smith ====== 3 of 3 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 11:27:42 +0100 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: is there something wrong with the list? and PWA1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thibault Sarlat" i have not received any message from the list for 3 days... The last message i received is a mail from Alex Benson about the queen of Eadrin, two days ago, if i'm right... I think no one has written after this... by the way, for Alex about Idon II from PWAI: E10, born 899, he was consort of Eadra XIII, golden blond hair, golden eyes, 6 feet height, handsome and haunted looking elf, dress in dark and purple to accentuate the pallor of his feature. Responsible and sensitive, has a genuine desire to help people and a neurotic need to have people love him. He has a chain mail +3 and a normal sword +4. About Eadra i found nothing, nor in PWAI nor in DotE. bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 11:48:58 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: is there something wrong with the list? Su 26 Dec 2002 10:42:59 +0100, Thibault Sarlat ha scritto: > i have not received any message from the list for 3 days... I think the list is ok. At any rate, I've received your message... Bye, GP ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 10:01:30 -0500 From: Castille Baromon de Preto Subject: Re: is there something wrong with the list? > > From: Thibault Sarlat > > i have not received any message from the list for 3 days... > We are still in awe over the LOTR II, or it is just the holidays. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 10:27:26 -0500 From: Castille Baromon de Preto Subject: Holiday's in Mystara Speaking of Holidays, Would it be Loki that would trick some good-hearted merchant house into twisting an important holiday in the Thyatian Calendar to a day of selfishness and greed? Just wondering if it would make a good campaign hook... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 18:27:41 +0100 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: LOTR II = taboo don't launch me on the subject, i just got over it. don't ever talk to me about this garbage. Thibault Sarlat. Techniques de l'Ingénieur Port: 06 84 92 32 55 Fax: 05 56 96 85 24 www.techniques-ingenieur.fr ICQ 16622177. Personal homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr ----- Original Message ----- From: "Castille Baromon de Preto" To: Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] is there something wrong with the list? > > > > From: Thibault Sarlat > > > > i have not received any message from the list for 3 days... > > > We are still in awe over the LOTR II, or it is just the holidays. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 11:56:50 -0800 From: SUBSCRIBE MYSTARA-L hammer_of_ulric Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo Taboo?! Why should this be the only message board where it's not being slagged off? But I, and my five kids, loved it. No, it's not exactly the same as the book, but what film is? I can't wait for III. Its a rip-roaring adventure story, but it has real depth as well. Hammer of Ulric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 22:09:19 +0200 From: Solmyr Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo SUBSCRIBE MYSTARA-L hammer_of_ulric wrote: > > Taboo?! > > Why should this be the only message board where it's not being slagged off? > > But I, and my five kids, loved it. > > No, it's not exactly the same as the book, but what film is? > > I can't wait for III. Its a rip-roaring adventure story, but it has real > depth as well. > It's an adventure movie, yes. But it's about as close to Tolkien's book as the recent Count of Monte Cristo was to Dumas' novel. -- Solmyr of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi World of Enothril website - http://enothril.topcities.com/ The Archmage's Tower - http://www.geocities.com/solmyr.geo/ "War does not determine who is right. War determines who is left." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:12:04 -0800 From: Mike Harvey Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo > don't launch me on the subject, i just got over it. > don't ever talk to me about this garbage. What? It was the best movie of the year! Mike -- Mike Harvey -- Beaverton, Oregon http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/ ICQ: 15446302 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 21:57:50 +0100 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: LOTR II = taboo i sincerely regret to have launched a discussion around the LOTR II subject... I did not like it. Period I am happy to know that some people did like it. I respect their taste even if do not share it. For those who want to discuss the matter, let's do it privately. I have many arguments to sustain my point of vue, and i am willing to hear any counter argument. Who knows, i might change my mind... Thibault Sarlat. Techniques de l'Ingénieur Port: 06 84 92 32 55 Fax: 05 56 96 85 24 www.techniques-ingenieur.fr ICQ 16622177. Personal homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 19:28:50 -0200 From: Andre Martins Subject: Re: D&D (Thyatis) vs. Femminism > > > THEN it comes to Mystara... WHY, IN THE NAME OF THANATOS, WOULD A > > > SOCIETY WHOSE GREATEST IMMORTAL IS VANYA ,HAVE RESISTANCES TO EMPRESSES, > > > WARRIOR-MAIDENS AND THE LIKE?????? > > > > > > Well, the goddess Athena was female, but ancient Greek women didn't have > a lot of rights either... > Plus, who's to say there aren't female warriors in Thyatis? I'm fairly > sure there are some. As for Empresses, well, perhaps Imperial succession > is based primarily on the male line, and female succession only if there > are no male heirs. That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the > female warrior Immortal. Hmmm, I have to disagree here on the basis that there is one important difference between Athena and Vanya. Athena, AFAIK and IMO, did not really exist as an Immortal in the real world (and in case any of you follow a religion that believes otherwise, even if she does exist, she doesn't seem to grant her priests spells like in D&D and to interfere as directly as Vanya does). Vanya, on the other hand, is quite real and influential in Mystara. Not only she is revered, but she has also been the mistress of Thincol and the power behind his throne, so I don't think the analogy is valid. Perhaps I am getting old and grumpy, but as time passes, I do tend to require more and more consistency from a game world. And I have not seen Gods and very powerful characters (level-wise and politically powerful) being depicted in any game world as being as influential and important as they should be. Anyway, you can just not pay much attention to my opinions and me. I am just an old heretic lurker, who has never been satisfied with the way the Immortals or Gods are depicted in any campaign I have ever seen, Mystara included. And worse than that, I have never really bothered about canon, only about consistency. I have written about my own ideas about the Immortals in the past, but I have reached a point in my home campaign where I have changed so many things that I decide to stop calling my world Mystara and create it from scratch, maps, Gods, countries and all else. I think I have done a good job and, I must admit, Mystara was the greatest source of inspiration for that world. After all, that's where my old campaign and ideas were developed. Should any of you be curious about it, just let me know off list, as it would be off-topic to discuss it here. I'll be starting a pbem game there soon and I have many things typed and maps ready. Even an old map from when I was still planning to stick with Mystara. The landmasses are all different (far more inspired in the Mediterranean region than on Mystara properly), following what I thought would make more sense for my ideas, but the names of the countries are still Mystaran. André ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 14:03:01 -0800 From: Mike Harvey Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo > It's an adventure movie, yes. But it's about as close to Tolkien's book > as the recent Count of Monte Cristo was to Dumas' novel. Or as close as most RPGs come to their source material. :-) They're still fun to play, and even only getting halfway there is better than not even trying. The movie took some significant liberties with the story (and even included a silly D&D-ism or two) but I thought it captured the *feel* of LOTR better than anything else -- book, movie, or game -- that I've seen. And if it didn't take some liberties with the story, it would have been a lousy movie -- great quality and fidelity, but audiences would have hated it. Especially the female audience. I'm glad they made it into something that can appeal to everyone, made something that can be a huge box-office success, and proved that you CAN do a quality fantasy movie AND make money with it. I hope we see more fantasy movies like this. For me. it matched the way I had imagined LOTR to be. I understand people visualize books differently and if something doesn't match the image in your mind it will be disappointing. But even if it didn't match the book or your mental image of the book, it was *still* the best pure fantasy movie ever made IMO. Try watching it and calling it a D&D movie, and if you happen to notice any resemblance to LOTR, well, D&D's been stealing stuff for years and we all love it anyway. :-) Oh well, I'll quit so as not to annoy Thibault anymore! :-) Mike -- Mike Harvey -- Beaverton, Oregon http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/ ICQ: 15446302 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 00:23:40 +0100 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: LOTR II = taboo FEAR MY WRATH Mr. HARVEY!!!!!! ;+)) i agree that it's the best heroic fantasy movie ever. i also agree that some changes had to be made to match modern day tastes. (but i don't see how they differ from the one of Tolkien times...) but then , you must have the courage to call it a palimpsest just like director JJ Annaud did with the Name of the Rose . (he had it written that it was just a palimpsest of the novel by Umberto Eco) same here. liberties are taken with the original story, then it's not the same story.hence you can't use the same title or it's parasitism.... And if privately you can explain to me the reasons why he made every big change, then i'll be more than happy to receive them. I also know that the process of reading is active whereas the one of seeing a movie is not (at least not so much active). Hence the difficulty to adapt a book. it's not a waste of time, i agree. Some good laughs (gimli's remarks which were absent from the book) but even if i hadn't read the books 32 times, some lines were so lame, that i thought that it was a B serie movie of the 70's... it's not a work of genius. just like the hobbit said about themselves: "plain and quiet" if someone wants to call it the best film ever, that's fine but let me encourage him to see more movies.( and i don't have the pretention to dictate what's good and what's not. Different people, different tastes. so long Mike. Thibault Sarlat. Techniques de l'Ingénieur Port: 06 84 92 32 55 Fax: 05 56 96 85 24 www.techniques-ingenieur.fr ICQ 16622177. Personal homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 17:45:11 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (3 of 3) "Francisco V. Navarro V" wrote: Where in Hell are the Devils? After all that has been said about the Mystara setting (Mystaraverse) and the Spheres of Power, here are the possible answers to this question of the missing devils: The explanation I use (one that was not originated by me, but by someone else on the list- Giulio, maybe?) is that the Devils operate in the Nightmare Dimension primarily, rather than in the Normal Dimension. There, they seek to bring law to the Chaos of the Nightmare Dimension, whereas the Demons seek to bring Chaos to the Normal one. Both types of creatures exist in the Outer Planes, where they may or may not engage in a Blood War (haven't decided yet); both are ultimately servants of Entropy. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 21:19:58 -0500 From: David Knott Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo My only answer to any complaints about Peter Jackson's LotR movies is this -- Is anyone else on this list old enough to remember what Ralph Bakshi and a couple of cartoonists did with the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings in their interpretations? I must at least give Peter Jackson credit for trying to preserve the essential elements of the story, to whatever degree he may have succeeded or failed. I think all would agree that Peter Jackson's version of the Lord of the Rings is the best film adaptation of Tolkien's works to date. To those of you who say, "Never mind those previous pieces of crap -- Peter Jackson still screwed things up! I am still waiting for somebody to do the Lord of the Rings right!" -- All I can say is that I will enjoy the Peter Jackson movies as they come out, but if somebody later down the road does them better, I will be delighted to see the later versions. However, since I am already over forty years of age, I just hope they do it while I am still young enough to enjoy it (in other words -- still alive!). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 21:28:03 -0500 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (3 of 3) From: "Francisco V. Navarro V" > > Devils do not exist in the Mystaraverse, but do exist in other Dimensions. > > The Dimension of Myth is the first place that comes to mind and it is easy > to imagine that devils walk on Laterre, in Averoigne. The original CAS > stories do mention devils and demons. > > An implication of this is that the Immortal Nyx, whose ancient origins lead > all the way back to Laterre (http://dnd.starflung.com/nyxlife.html by David > Knott), may have some devilish (not demonic) connections. Personality wise, > she/he does fit the bill. > The Dimension of Nightmares is another place where devils may exist. This > would explain why the Diaboli are so similar to devils in appearance. In > fact, the role of Immortals in the Dimension of Nightmares may in fact be > served by the Devil rulers! (This could lead to very powerful, > cross-dimensional conflicts between Immortals and the Devils. or Nightmare > Immortals!) I would certainly support the idea that demons (and not devils) are active in the "Normal" Mystaraverse dimension, while devils (and not demons) are active in the Nightmare dimension. That would lead each of those dimensions to have a natural Law/Chaos bias for "good" creatures that opposes that of its resident fiends. For Nyx, you do bring up an interesting possibility, although I am not sure what sort of undead she would be to have a Lawful Evil rather than Chaotic Evil alignment. My default assumption that she was some sort of vampire or nosferatu might not survive scrutiny on that basis. In any case, the Myth dimension should probably be fully subject to the Blood War and thus have fiends of both the Lawful (diabolic) and Chaotic (demonic) persuasions. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 21:39:40 -0500 From: David Knott Subject: Re: D&D3E Stats for Specularum From: "Darth Darknerd" > > > I would thus distribute the population as follows: > > > > Human: 92% (Thyatian 25%, Traladaran 45%, Mixed > > 28%, Other 2%) > > Elf: 7% (Callarii 95%, Vyalia 4%, Other 1%) > > Other: 1% (Dwarf, Gnome, and Halfling) > > Given that this is circa 1000AD, would there be a lot > of humans in the mixed category? What would you have > for post WotI and what would you have for c. 1000AD? The PWA figures had "Mixed/Other" as a single category. Since Gaz 1 already had a significant mixed population, I biased the distribution towards "Mixed" and away from "Other". The figures I gave were meant for 1000 AC, since that was the time period most compatible with your material. If you wish to move on to the post-WotI era, I would suggest the following population figures for Mirros (the new name of Specularum in that era): Total population 70,000. Human: 92% (Thyatian 20%, Traladaran 50%, Mixed 25%, Other 5%) Elf: 7% (Callarii 85%, Alfheim refugee 10%, Vyalia 4%, Other 1%) Other: 1% (Dwarf, Gnome, and Halfling) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 21:41:15 -0500 From: David Knott Subject: Re: D&D3E Stats for Specularum From: "Darth Darknerd" > > I really like that this idea. For now, I am going to > keep him vanilla. Another person pointed out that his > level might not be really 15th in 3E. I need to find > a conversion for it. The generally agreed upon level conversion formula between 0e and 3e is 1:1 up to level 14 and 2:1 beyond level 14. On that basis, a 36th level character would convert to a 25th level 3e character. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 21:47:43 -0500 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Anyone have PWA1 Handy? From: "Alex Benson" > > Thanks. One or two more questions about these two, mainly to tie up a few > details. PWA1 should have a general appearance description of Idon II (skin > color and hair). Can you help me with that? Likewise with Eadra XIII if it is > listed. I assume Eadra was also an elf? Any mention of her level? (f10/m10?). Idon II: Hair: Golden-blond. Eyes: Golden. Height: 6'. A handsome, rather haunted-looking elf; he dresses in dark purples and blacks to accentuate the pallor of his features. Nothing similar is said about Eadra in either the PWAs (since she died prior to 1010 AC and was not subsequently raised) or in the DotE boxed set, so we can only assume that she was a multi- classed elf wizard of at least the level reached by her widower Idon II. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 20:02:31 -0800 From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: The Flunky prestige class And now for something completely silly ... Feedback, serious or otherwise, is welcomed. FLUNKY Every villainous spellcaster seems to have them: lackeys cowering at their elbows, servile, obsequious, intent on doing whatever tasks their powerful master requires, so long as it will spare them their wrath, although it never seems to do so for long. They are the flunkies, whose toadying and bootlicking makes the work of archvillains a little simpler, as they have someone to shine their shoes, feed the prisoners, sharpen the iron maidens and, when life in the Tower of Unmitigated Darkness is quiet, someone to beat and experiment upon. Flunkies can be members of any race, although they are most typically kobolds, goblins, orcs, half-orcs and particularly wretched halflings, gnomes, dwarves and humans. Flunkies can be drawn from any class, but in practice, only Commoners have such limited prospects that becoming a flunky seems like a good career decision. Requirements To qualify to become a flunky, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria. Craft (Any): 8 ranks Feats: Toughness, Endurance Special: A would-be flunky must speak the Common Tongue. In addition, he must be the primary servant of a non-good villainous wizard, cleric, druid or sorcerer. Hit Die: d4 Class Skills The flunky's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Alchemy (Int), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Use Magic Device (Cha), Use Rope (Dex) Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells 0 Spells 1 1 +0 +2 +2 +0 Evasion - - 2 +1 +3 +3 +0 Toady +1 - - 3 +1 +3 +3 +1 Avoid Wrath - - 4 +2 +4 +4 +1 U. Dodge 0 - 5 +2 +4 +4 +1 Toady +2 0 - 6 +3 +5 +5 +2 Avoid Wrath 1 - 7 +3 +5 +5 +2 U. Dodge 1 - 8 +4 +6 +6 +2 Toady +3 1 0 9 +4 +6 +6 +2 Avoid Wrath 1 0 10 +5 +7 +7 +3 I. Evasion 1 1 Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Flunkies are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor, nor with shields. Armor of any type interferes with a flunky's movements, which can cause his arcane spells to fail (if those spells have somatic components). Note that armor check penalties for armor heavier than leather apply to the skills Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick Pocket, and Tumble. Also, Swim checks suffer a -1 penalty for every 5 pounds of armor and equipment carried. Evasion: Few flunkies would live past first level without evasion. If exposed to an effect that normally allows a character to attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage (such as a fireball hurled by their master after a hard day battling the forces of Good), he takes no damage with a successful saving throw. Evasion can only be used if the flunky is wearing light armor or no armor. Evasion is an extraordinary ability. Toady: Starting at level 2, flunkies become adept at subtly getting their masters to do what they want -- which normally translates into getting them to stop beating the flunky at that given moment. Flunkies gain a +1 on all Charisma checks and Charisma-keyed skills such as Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information and Perform as they relate to dealing with their master. They do not gain this bonus in conjunction with Intimidate, however. This bonus increases by 1 every 3 levels thereafter -- i.e. +2 at level 5, +3 at level 8 and +4 at level 11 (for epic flunkies, the wretched creatures). Avoid Wrath: Beginning at level 3, flunkies have become adept at spotting their master's wrath moments before it's too late, and either getting out of the way, or steeling themselves for the worst. At level 3, they gain a +1 to all spells cast by their master. This bonus increases by 1 every three levels thereafter -- i.e. +2 at level 6, +3 at level 9, and so on. Uncanny Dodge: Starting at 4th level, the flunky gains the extraordinary ability to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to even be aware of it. At 4th level and above, he retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) regardeless of being caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. (He still loses any Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.) At 7th level, the flunky can no longer be flanked (the origin of a popular peasant's tongue twister), since he can react to opponents on opposite sides of him as easily as he can react to a single attacker. This defenise denies rogues the ability to use flank attacks to sneak attack the flunky. The exception to this defense is that a rogue at least four levels higher than the flunky can flank him (and thus sneak attack him). Spells: Beginning at 4th level, a flunky gains the ability to cast a small number of spells, of the sort their master, or one of their master's allies, can cast. (i.e. the flunky of a necromancer would gain arcane spells as a wizard, while the flunky of an evil cleric would gain divine spells using the master's spell list.) The flunky can only prepare spells available to their master, and does not gain any bonuses for specialization if their master is a specialist wizard. Flunkies of sorcerers only know as many spells as they are able to cast (including bonus spells for high Charisma). Flunkies follow all other spellcasting rules as though they were a member of their master's spellcasting class. Improved Evasion: This extraordinary ability, gained at 10th level, works like evasion (see above). The flunky takes no damage at all on successful saving throws against attacks that allow a Reflex saving throw for half damage (breath weapon, fireball, and so on). What's more, he takes only half damage even if she fails her saving throw, since the flunky's reflexes allow him to get out of harm's way with incredible speed. Ex-Flunkies Flunkies who are no longer in the service of a master who meets the requirements for admission to the prestige class cannot advance in levels until such time as they enter the service of another master. Like a member of any other class, a flunky may be a multiclass character, but flunkies face a special restriction. A flunky who gains a new class or raises another class by a level other than their original class prior to becoming a flunky can never again raise their flunky level, though they retain all their flunky abilities. The path of the flunky requires an abject lack of better prospects, and once a character is aware of better career opportunities, they may never return to flunkydom. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 23:00:08 -0600 From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: The Flunky prestige class > And now for something completely silly ... > Feedback, serious or otherwise, is welcomed. LOL! This was awesome! Masters of the Wild gave us a prestige class for Adepts, it was only a matter of time before we got a prestige class for Commoners. ;) On the advice side, I might be inclined to increase the Toady ability and Avoid Wrath ability from +1 per increase to +2 per increase. Those two abilities seem to be of already limited usage, so why the heck not. They still have d4 hit dice and the worst BAB. Maybe give the flunky the extraordinary ability that the for skills his master has as class skills he also counts those skills as class skills. An ex-flunky would lose that, of course. *shrug* I could see this refined and being published in the Dragon April Fool's humor issue. Eric Anondson (*chuckle*) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 15:11:29 +0800 From: Cassandro Glantri Subject: Re: Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (3 of 3) > For Nyx, you do bring up an interesting possibility, although I am > not sure what sort of undead she would be to have a Lawful Evil > rather than Chaotic Evil alignment. My default assumption that > she was some sort of vampire or nosferatu might not survive > scrutiny on that basis. In any case, the Myth dimension should > probably be fully subject to the Blood War and thus have fiends > of both the Lawful (diabolic) and Chaotic (demonic) persuasions. Your default assumption, David, can still hold. Nyx, diabolic connection or not, is a very powerful Master/Mistress of the Undead. To become an Immortal, to cross Dimensions, to become one of the most ancient Immortals, and a Hierarch at that, he/she must have been much more than a mere devil involved in diabolical intrigues and the Blood War. Like Hel and Thanatos, Nyx must have had her evil Entropic fingers in many, many dark pies! Here's another idea: Alphaks (an Immortal demon) created Morphail (an undead, who may well be an Immortal candiate). It would not have been a surprise is back on Laterre, the nosferatu who sired Sharvari (Nyx) had some diabolical connection. Kit Navarro Laterran Speculator ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 24 Dec 2002 to 26 Dec 2002 (#2002-333) ****************************************************************