Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 26 Dec 2002 to 27 Dec 2002 (#2002-334) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 28/12/2002, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 13 messages totalling 489 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. LOTR II = taboo (10) 2. D&D (Thyatis) vs. Femminism (2) 3. D&D3E Stats for Specularum (c.1000AD) v.4 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 08:58:41 +0100 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo i am about to turn 30, but i share your view. i must admit i was very exited when i heard that they were doing a LOTR trilogy. to compare it with cuisine (after all i'm French), let's say that the meal was not as good as expected, but it was eatable and some particular flavours were exquisite. Thibault Sarlat. Techniques de l'Ingénieur Port: 06 84 92 32 55 Fax: 05 56 96 85 24 www.techniques-ingenieur.fr ICQ 16622177. Personal homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 10:05:11 +0100 From: Daniel Mayer Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo I want to add something, too!!! :) Hi, guys! + + + + + + + + + + Spoiler + + + + + IMO, the movie itself was quite good. But I'm a fan for myself and share some other views: 1) There were really unnecessary additions or variations to the LOTR II-book. Elves in "Helms' Klamm" (german), Faramir acting like Boromir (with scene in Osgiliath), and some others 2) WHERE THE HELL IS ANDURIL????!!!! I'm gonna f*** the whole movie if it will be given to Aragorn to his coronation.... ! Damn, a detail, I know, but IMO a *very* important one... 3) Gollum was great! 4) Frodo is the worst akteur in the movie. I heard in a radio interview: "Frodo (Woods) has three faces to show. No more." Seems correct. 5) Sam gets better with each scene. Best "human" acteur. 6) Ok, Elves in Helms' Klamm.... but if modified... Elrond could have been with Gildor, couldn't he? :))) (Theoden: "We're going to attack!". Elrond: "No." Theoden: "Yes we attack!!" Elrond: "No." Theoden: "Yes" ....) Ignoring these... a good movie. I'm excited to view the third... Daniel Mayer, aka Laren Nightmaster, Tower of Dreams ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 08:32:36 -0800 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo Well for those of you that say you didn't like LOTR II then so be it, but = in comparison to the D&D movie, the Dungeons and Dragons Movie Sucked big = time!!! Although I saw it I saw LOTR 3x compared to D&D once. There is no = comparison for fantasy movies. And no I am not talking about what was in = the movie, I just mean based on what I saw. At least LOTR And LOTR II were = more realistic like Gladiator and Braveheart. D&D on the other hand was = like a bad=20 B-Movie! JK Wolf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 08:38:44 -0800 From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" Subject: Re: D&D (Thyatis) vs. Femminism I agree with Chris. All over the real world there were female deities and still women were a lower class. just to rock the boat a little- think holy mother mary in catholicism. An oposite extreme could be the godess Kali in Indian mythology. What the religions have tought us is that what's good for godesses is not good for mortal women. Men have no problem powing before a statue of a female deity but would not be ordered by mortal women. Queens who had real power were rare, and I suspect that the only reason thay had power is that they are sort of godesses as well. The reason that there are not many women-warrior cultures on Mystara and RPG's in general is that women are still smaller than men. Therefore they make less potent wariors (usually). So where do we find equal societies? lets see: Rockhome- IMC at least (and in Prachette's novels) dwarves of both sexes are of the same size and look basically the same. They have the same roles in society and it is very honorable for women dwarves to be fighters. Alphatia/Glantri- Magocracies. A person is higher class if he/she casts spells better not fights better. Since there is no difference between male and femal wizards, women can be found in all roles of society- minus the mundane armies. Pearl Islands- A peaceful society that has probably lowered the importence of a warior class. Women have siezed equality. Elves- In all game worlds I have heard of as of yet, elves seem to be "idealistically superior to humans" what this means to a western RW gamer is that they have ideals similar to modern people. So elven women are warriors and rulers. Maybe that's part of why humans view them as alien. I am as feminist as the next guy, and I am all for women fighting in RW armies (the ones that are done using swords and axes and go for jet planes and submarines). But in a fantasy RPG it makes sense that the people who can hurl a spear for a greater distance are the ones in charge. Morphail (Who is going to get seriously beaten/bitten when his sister sees this mail). Chris Furneaux wrote:> The greatest example of D&D machism is the Drow society. The only famous > one that is matriarcal and it is Chaotic Evil, ruled by treachery and > wims, hardest a good work for battling machism.... *cough* Forgetable Realms *cough* > THEN it comes to Mystara... WHY, IN THE NAME OF THANATOS, WOULD A > SOCIETY WHOSE GREATEST IMMORTAL IS VANYA ,HAVE RESISTANCES TO EMPRESSES, > WARRIOR-MAIDENS AND THE LIKE?????? > > In Thyatis women should have first place in many a thing, at least after > the Emperor Zendrolions death. Why should it be strange for women to > fight and be warriors? Cause it is based on rome and the romans didn't think of women as equil. Hell we still don't put women on the front lines. Why then should it be strange that they *shouldn't* be warriors and such in thyatis? I know that everything today tends to be *Politically correct* but what is wrong with a fantasy society that has such elements of historical realism. It adds depth and character to the world and provides many roleplaying opitunities that do not exist in an equil society, or more to the point a society that has always been equil (which I think cannot be said about any society). Don't get me wrong, I'm not sexist, just that I can't see why there should be a problem with a society scripted as male dominated. If you can have a female dominated society in RPGs why not a male one? You don't have to play it as such. And it is a *historical fantasy* RPG not modern reality. IMO there is about as much of a case for D&D promoteing sexism by having a male dominated society as there is for D&D promoteing satanism because it has demons etc. and we all know what a load of bull that is. Having a single sex dominated society in an RPG acts not to chalenge your view of equality but to allow for the awareness of what it is like without equality and why inequality is unjust. It's an RPG and you should be able to play it however you like cause it is for your enjoyment and if you don't enjoy it you are not going to play it. One of the greatest aspects of mystara is the variety that it has and this is just another example of that. Chris. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 18:30:41 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo hi, MMlers! merry Xmas, New Year, Solsticial feast of choice! I did like the movie, lots, especially the battle and all great panoramic shots. I did dislike Ents, they really feel like a group of Berkeley students high on pot, not regal and mysterious! Said that, completely personal, a small commetary: one thing which really astounded me of Peter Jackson's TTT is his amazing skill as a big screen storyteller... After having mixed feelings about Fellowship (I remember writing a post to the list about it), which is, IMHO, a simpler book to adapt, with a very linear storyline and a higher dramatic narrative quality in Tolkien's original work. TTT is a real hell, Tolkien never worried about cliffhangers or a balanced pace of action. He devotes 200 pages to a story line, resolves it and then goes back in time and recaps where he left the other (half of TTT is Aragorn and friends with a bit of Pippin and Merry and the other half is just Frodo and Sam). That's unbearable on a motion picture and Jackson juggled skillfully with the storylines. Also, he realized that Return of the King (IMHO again the weakest of Tolkien's trilogy, he seemed to be hurrying up to finish that blasted book as he often says in letters) begins with very uncinematic moments (Sam pondering over Frodo's fate, Pippin arrival in Minas Tirith). His displacement and merging from events from TTT to RotK has been very smart: Putting two great moments of tension (Shelob's lair and the confrontation at Isengard) in the beginning of the third movie. Merging Faramir's meeting with Frodo with his fight at the ruins of Osgiliath with the Nazgul, thus speeding events in the stuff which happens before the battle of the Pelennor Fields Filming the First Appendix!!! Before I went to see the movie i flipped through LotR to have a "fresh view" and one of my thoughts was "Hell, pity they cannot film the appendix about Aragorn and Arwen, it adds so much dramatic depth to the tale of the 3rd Age, but they cannot put appendixes in movies"... and there it is!! it begins as a flashback scene, and wow, then you have elves at the walls of Helm's Deep (BTW, probably those elves are connected to the Rangers of the North and Elrond's sons which come to the help of Aragorn at the beginning of Return of the King); again, it's a very visual (Tolkien diehards will call it sacrilegous) to let transpire into the movies feelings and events from the whole history of Arda which can hardly be put into screen... Anyway, all these narrative elements seem like very smart to me, but they have put the big resolution burden in the third movie... only after seeing that one I'll be able to say if the trilogy is completely amazing or if it left me a bit disappointed! Andrés ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 18:33:51 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo 2) WHERE THE HELL IS ANDURIL????!!!! IIRC the reforging of the sword is mentioned in the DVD Fellowship special edition. Andrés ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 12:39:09 -0500 From: Castille Baromon de Preto Subject: Re: D&D (Thyatis) vs. Femminism > > From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" > > The reason that there are not many women-warrior cultures on Mystara and RPG's in general is that women are still smaller than men. Therefore they make less potent wariors (usually). > I agree with you, but nowhere in Mystara does it state that the females get -1 to STR and a +1 to CHA or any other adjustments. Nor does it state that females can advance to the 6th level as a fighter at the most. I believe the creators did not want to x out half of the buyers in the gaming market by being politically incorrect. If femminism was an issue in Thyatis, any female character would be as insane as Joan of Arc (Not to put her down in the least, but the English at the time believed she was). There are no game mechanics to provide for a weaker female race, nor any social consequence for being a female fighter. They are rare in Thyatis, but when you come across one, don't be fooled that they are a weaker race! Another good society that would be better if ruled by the females, Bellayne. Female lions are the better, stronger, hunters; and actually do all the work in a pride. In general animal statistics, and human, females are the stronger sex, by constitution. One male can impregnate hundreds of females; so by natural selection, females are the stronger, more resillient sex so there will be hundreds of females. Infant mortality is way higher for males than females. So if we were to add any mechanics, it would be -1 STR, +1 CON, and because I prefer beautiful women fighters, a +1 to CHA. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 13:30:11 -0500 From: Castille Baromon de Preto Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo For the sake of argument... The movie was good. For me, I liked the adaptation and the Jackson's story line, I like being surprised. I don't see where there are major rifts from the original story, except for the barrow wight and Tom, but the cartoon left these important elements out also. I like the movie the most on one important note... My wife and kids love the movie so much, that they are reading all my Tolkien material, and they want more! So with all the years my wife called me a nerd, she now respects my hobby :) and my kids want to play D&D with me. Now they will understand the concept of roleplaying a little better than before, because they now have "heroes" they would like to role play after. The only problem I have now is explaining to my wife that her first level Arwen can't create floods, and that the Uruk Hai are not to be referred as "tree people" because they came out of the ground :( ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 20:10:44 +0100 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo this is definitely a good point for you. if this movie have us turn into "un-nurds" then magic is really a part of the movie...;+)) Thibault Sarlat. Techniques de l'Ingénieur Port: 06 84 92 32 55 Fax: 05 56 96 85 24 www.techniques-ingenieur.fr ICQ 16622177. Personal homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr ----- Original Message ----- From: "Castille Baromon de Preto" To: Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] LOTR II = taboo > For the sake of argument... > The movie was good. For me, I liked the adaptation and the Jackson's story line, I like being surprised. I don't see where there are major rifts from the original story, except for the barrow wight and Tom, but the cartoon left these important elements out also. > I like the movie the most on one important note... > My wife and kids love the movie so much, that they are reading all my Tolkien material, and they want more! So with all the years my wife called me a nerd, she now respects my hobby :) and my kids want to play D&D with me. Now they will understand the concept of roleplaying a little better than before, because they now have "heroes" they would like to role play after. The only problem I have now is explaining to my wife that her first level Arwen can't create floods, and that the Uruk Hai are not to be referred as "tree people" because they came out of the ground :( > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:43:33 -0500 From: Tracy Bandy Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrés Piquer Otero" To: Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] LOTR II = taboo > 2) WHERE THE HELL IS ANDURIL????!!!! > IIRC the reforging of the sword is mentioned in the DVD Fellowship special > edition. > > Andrés In the Fellowship exstended version, Elrond makes a statement to Aragorn to the effect that the elves have the capability to reforge the sword. However, that statement is the extent of the circumstance. There is no indication from there that it has been reforged, or will be reforged. Personally, I would hope that it would re-enter the story near the beginning of the Return of the King, seeing that Peter Jackson has taken great pains in his version to have a reluctant Arargorn grow into his legacy. The events with the Rohan suggest an Aragorn coming to terms with his responsibility and destiny. I have greatly enjoyed both movies thus far. I am looking forward (impatiently) to the Return of the King. I understand the qualms many feel about events in the movie versus the book, but cannot readily agree. Each is a different medium with a tale told by a different story teller. Many great tales - literary, folkish, and historical - have variations, depending on who is telling the story. In these cases, I do not look for faithfulness tot he original story, but the strength of the new telling. In the current case, I have to give Peter Jackson a strong positive nod for his story. I have bene greatly entertained, which is all I can ask from him. However, what entertains other people is going to vary from my preferences... So, as ever, to each his own. Tracy A Bandy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 00:13:31 +0200 From: Solmyr Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo Castille Baromon de Preto wrote: > > For the sake of argument... > The movie was good. For me, I liked the adaptation and the Jackson's story line, I like being surprised. I don't see where there are major rifts from the original story, except for the barrow wight and Tom, but the cartoon left these important elements out also. I think the most major change from the book, which infuriates people the most, is the change in Faramir's character. In the book, he refuses to take the Ring, demonstrating his resolve and wisdom compared to his brother Boromir. The movie removes all that completely. -- Solmyr of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi World of Enothril website - http://enothril.topcities.com/ The Archmage's Tower - http://www.geocities.com/solmyr.geo/ "War does not determine who is right. War determines who is left." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 23:32:51 +0100 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo i am so glad that no flame has come ... yet i still reret to have launch the subject. i still fear a flame can come.... poor me Thibault Sarlat. Techniques de l'Ingénieur Port: 06 84 92 32 55 Fax: 05 56 96 85 24 www.techniques-ingenieur.fr ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 23:36:18 -0800 From: Darth Darknerd Subject: D&D3E Stats for Specularum (c.1000AD) v.4 Hi. This is the fourth revision. I am happy to get this speced out with everyone's assistance. ---------------------\(^).(^)/------------------------ Specularum (Large City): standard; AL LN; 225,000 gp limit; Assets 756,000 gp; Population 63,480; Mixed (90% human*, 7% elf**, 2% halflings, 1% other***) Authority Figures: - Lord Lucas Tormandros, the Townsmaster, male human War5; - Duke Stefan Karameikos III, male human Ftr11/Art4 Other Notable Figures: - Aleksander Torenescu, leader of the Tornescu clan, male human Art2; - Boris Tornescu, Tornescu clan, male human Art2/War2; - Anton Radu, leader of the Radu clan, male human Rog12; - Philip Vorloi, leader of the Vorloi clan, male human Ftr2/Exp2; - Lord Dmitrios, Prince of Beggars, male human Rog2/War3; - Aleksyvev Nikelnevich, Partriarch of the Church of Traladara, male human Clr11; - Sergyve, Cult of Halav, male human Clr9; - Lord Olliver Jowett, Patriarch of The Church of Karameikos in Specularum, Master of the Order of the Griffon, human male Clr16 * 66% Traladarans, 27% Thyatians, 17% mixed/other ** 98% of elves are Calarii, 2% other *** 60% dwarves, 40% gnomes ------------------------------------------------------ I will include this into B6: Veiled Society 3E. thanx, Joaquin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 26 Dec 2002 to 27 Dec 2002 (#2002-334) ****************************************************************