Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 27 Dec 2002 to 28 Dec 2002 (#2002-335) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 29/12/2002, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 12 messages totalling 614 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (3 of 3) (2) 2. Vanya the Warrior? (was D&D (Thyatis) vs. Femminism) 3. LOTR II = taboo (6) 4. Still more bugs in ESD maps! 5. D&D (Thyatis) vs. Femminism 6. LOTR II = taboo (spoiler alert) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 09:12:34 -0800 From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" Subject: Re: Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (3 of 3) Hey Kit! Wonderfully put. I had sort of this idea in mind about demons in Mystara, only I tend to less stress the difference between a demon and an immortal (as you said, one can be both). I didn't like the whole planscape view of fiends- the "sanitised" version as you called it. You might want to check out "the Book of Vile Darkness" it's the only D&D product that is officially intended for adults only. Lots of dark things there (almost 200 pages). Most are not very useful for a Mystaran campaign (prestiege classes and the like) but as the author (Monte Cook) writes, you can choose small parts of the book to integrate into your game. Lots of cool stuff about torture and the meaning of being evil in FRPGs. Also it's nice to finally see artwork that's a litlle more bloody. Morphail "Francisco V. Navarro V" wrote:References: WotI Wrath of the Immortals MM Monster Manual FF Fiend Folio PS Planescape MC Monstrous Compendium CAS Clark Ashton-Smith --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 09:33:55 -0800 From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" Subject: Vanya the Warrior? (was D&D (Thyatis) vs. Femminism) > Hmmm, I have to disagree here on the basis that there is one important difference between Athena and Vanya. Athena, AFAIK and IMO, did not really exist as an Immortal in the real world (and in case any of you follow a religion that believes otherwise, even if she does exist, she doesn't seem to grant her priests spells like in D&D and to interfere as directly as Vanya does). Vanya, on the other hand, is quite real and influential in Mystara. Not only she is revered, but she has also been the mistress of Thincol and the power behind his throne, so I don't think the analogy is valid. Thanks for reminding me. Damn me to the Pyts if Vanya's methods are in any way apropriate for a femminist warrior woman. The immortal concourer with the two handed sword is using her sexuality(!) to make a mortal do her bidding? Isn't that more apropriate for a deity like Valerias (or Hel for that matter)? Wouldn't it be more apropriate to manifest in front of the mortal emperor Thincol and command him in the name of his ancesstors? (He is a northener don't forget). No. Instead she uses trickery and lust as her weapons, like a whispering demon. This strategy is apropriate for lowly mortal women in a sexist culture (if you know stories from the old testemon- there was a woman called Ester who used her appeal on the emperor of Persia), not for a the head deity of a warlike culture. It was mentioned on this list that immortals are bound in some way to their portfolio. Should Vanya be punished for this out-of-charechter behavior? Is she responible for the downfall of Thyatis as we know it? If only all immortals would have been as consisstant as Alphaks... Morphail --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:42:39 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo I haven't seen the 2nd movie yet, but the things that got me most infuriated in the first one were two: 1) Gimli seems to be a total idiot; I hope this changes in the second movie 2) Boromir --> I think that it was good, until the end when Aragorn must come to "save" him from the Uruk. Boromir ends his life like a dement fool, and not like a great warrior. His role in the Fellowship is that of an idiot. And this just because PJ had to show to the eyes of the masses the "heroic" nature of Aragorn. I didn't like this. Anyway, the first movie remains one of the best fantasy movies I have ever seen. I really think that not much could be done to do it better, at least if you wanted to use all those expensive special effects. If we want the special effects and a world that visually is credible, we lose something on the internal consistency of the movie and of the consistency with the books. But in the end I think it's worth it. One last thought: I still think "Conan the Barbarian" with good ol' Schwarzy is still the best fantasy movie ever. The feeling is much different, it's sword and sorcery and not epic fantasy, it has no special effects but still I find it more coherent and overall better. ===== Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis "We poor few forged as brothers in this furnace will emerge as the steel of future generations" -- from "Legionary's Prayers", by Ionaos Nolan ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Cellulari: scarica i loghi e le suonerie per le tue feste! http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mobile.yahoo.com/index2002.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 09:53:46 -0800 From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" Subject: Re: Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (3 of 3) > I would certainly support the idea that demons (and not devils) are active in the "Normal" Mystaraverse dimension, while devils (and not demons) are active in the Nightmare dimension. That would lead each of those dimensions to have a natural Law/Chaos bias for "good" creatures that opposes that of its resident fiends. That makes sense, as entopy works as a sestructive force- chaos destroys life and order on the prime; law (or order) destroys the fabric of the nightmare dimension. > For Nyx, you do bring up an interesting possibility, although I am not sure what sort of undead she would be to have a Lawful Evil rather than Chaotic Evil alignment. My default assumption that she was some sort of vampire or nosferatu might not survive scrutiny on that basis. In any case, the Myth dimension should probably be fully subject to the Blood War and thus have fiends of both the Lawful (diabolic) and Chaotic (demonic) persuasions. I love the idea the devils are the fiends of the myth dimension (and therefore they are the ones who plagues the nightmares of Averoignians and Anglais people. But I don't see the problem with lawful evil undead. Especially vampires. Several stories and movies* tell of councils of ancient and honorable vampires who rule hirarchys with rules and laws. Think about Taymora. Think about mummies in Nithian graves. They could all be exaples of LE undead. Also I am not sure what's Morphail GW's alignment is in G:KoM but in my head (and as my alter ego) he has been LE, NE, and LN. Never CE. *(ok I am talking about "Blade" which is a piece of what's not comming out of elves) Morphail (who is gaining control of Ohad's head for several years now, just like Smeigol and Golom...) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:08:11 +0100 From: Federico Kaftal Subject: Still more bugs in ESD maps! Dear sirs, I know that you are still waiting for your vendor to send you a bunch of corrected files, but in the meanwhile I am sorry to say that I have noticed more, major bugs: After printing the maps of the following items: - Red Arrow, Black Shield (TSR 9160) - The Minrothad Guilds (TSR 9236) - The Five Shires (TSR 9232) I noticed that in The Minrothad Guilds (both Country map and Trade Route map and internal cover map too) and in The Five Shires (Country map only) the various pieces each map consists of have been scanned with different proportions: it's therefore impossible to tie them together because they do not tally! Furthermore: the Country map of The Minrothad Guilds has not been cut before scanning: as a result, the various pages contain redundant parts of the image, which makes one more reason for being it impossible to tally them together. Furthermore: another one (Red Arrow, Black Shield), has some three or four pages missing: the large map is not complete at all! Please add to this my previous e-mails, where I said that the whole of The Northern Reaches (TSR 9230) Country map is entirely missing, and the dungeon map of The Dymrak Dread (TSR 9272) has got a missing page too. It's a scandal, I dare to say, that EVERY item I bought in ESD format including a map has one or more major bugs! These maps are one of the strongest reason why one would not plainly photocopy modules from a friend, but rather download original items in ESD (and PAY for them): I tend to believe that if this situation goes on, you'll soon be receiving a huge amount of protests and people will stop buying ESD items: the quality of the maps scanning is so poor that obviously they were given to non-professional workers and underwent no testing at all (i.e.: nobody took care of trying to download, print and re-construct the whole module to check if everything was OK). I don't want to be involved in any discussion or justification with your scanning vendor - I just expect WotC to provide me with totally debugged and "tested" maps, downloadable, printable and with A4 pages perfectly coincident with each others, in order to be able to scotch them together and recreate the exact map. That's all. I would advise you to put a higher pressure on your vendor, because the quality of their job really does not meet basic levels. Regards, Federico Kaftal _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_advancedjmf_3mf ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 10:31:08 -0800 From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" Subject: Re: D&D (Thyatis) vs. Femminism Castille Baromon de Preto wrote: > Another good society that would be better if ruled by the females, Bellayne. Female lions are the better, stronger, hunters; and actually do all the work in a pride. In general animal statistics, and human, females are the stronger sex, by constitution. One male can impregnate hundreds of females; so by natural selection, females are the stronger, more resillient sex so there will be hundreds of females. Infant mortality is way higher for males than females. So if we were to add any mechanics, it would be -1 STR, +1 CON, and because I prefer beautiful women fighters, a +1 to CHA. Now you got me started on bioliogy again... The whole sexual disequality in animals which stems from the differences in cell sizes and goes up all the way to effect behaviour effects size in different ways (mostly in oposite ways). So while lions seals and gorillas all have big males lots of other animals have bigger females (frogs, bats for instance) or they are exactly the same size. I don't agree with your argument about the "more ressilient sex" but we are getting way of topic, so you can Email me privately if you like. -Back to Mystara- I agree with you that females should be weaker in game statistics too, and that would be very risky for any game creator. But since IMO the setting is what makes or brakes the in game statistics and not the other way around there is no real problem. What I mean is when you design an NPC (or a PC if you are an experienced gamer) you first have the charechter in mind. If I want to play a female fighter I picture her in my head. Is she 1.90 and with muscles like Shwartzenager? no? Than I won't give her a strength of 19 (or 18 or 16). Most male and female players would imagine charming beutiful women with an athletic phisic (unless you are going for the hag look, which is very fun to play... trust me.) so they would have to give her medium strength (let's say up to 13 in D&D3) maybe high dexterity and an overwelming charisma (it's so fun to boss men around). If you create your PC's this way not even your most hardcore feminist female player with argue with the resulting statistics. Now if you really want raise hell try and introduce an intellegence<-->wisdom game-rule in regard to female charachters. There will be bloodshed... Morphail --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 14:29:59 -0800 From: Darth Darknerd Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo > Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 08:32:36 -0800 > From: Joe Kelly > Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo > > Well for those of you that say you didn't like LOTR > II then so be it, but in comparison to the D&D > movie, the Dungeons and Dragons Movie Sucked big > time!!! Although I saw it I saw LOTR 3x compared to > D&D once. There is no comparison for fantasy movies. > And no I am not talking about what was in the movie, > I just mean based on what I saw. At least LOTR And > LOTR II were more realistic like Gladiator and > Braveheart. D&D on the other hand was like a bad > B-Movie! > > JK Wolf Yes, D&D Movie was so bad. I stayed throughout the whole movie because I was stunned with belief. That movie is up there with Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. Now, I'm shocked that people don't like LOTR II. I am so shocked, even more mortified than when I was watching D&D. I think this movie is the best movie of the year. Now, ok, it might not be verbatum as the book, but the movie, graphics, just the entertainment value alone, this movie rocks. All of my friends, love the movie and most have seen it at least twice. Curiously, I wonder how LOTR and LOTR II did in the box office compared to D&D movie. peace out, Joaquin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:51:19 -0200 From: JJJ Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo la Volpe wrote > I haven't seen the 2nd movie yet, but the things that > got me most infuriated in the first one were two: > > 1) Gimli seems to be a total idiot; I hope this > changes > in the second movie Unfortunately the danmed director only sinks our beloved dwarf even more in the mud..... PJ really doesn't like Gimli! There is no battle scene in which he excels, and even for a puny jump he must be humiliated by Aragorn. Legolas gets all the fantastic tactics and tricks. The second film was a big dissapointment to me, my good friends. I agree that, for those who had not read the books, it may be good, but anyone who remebers the fantastic dialogue between Gandalf and King Theoden, must be ashamed by the "exorscism" that occurred... > One last thought: I still think "Conan the Barbarian" > with good ol' Schwarzy is still the best fantasy > movie ever. The feeling is much different, it's > sword and sorcery and not epic fantasy, it has no > special effects but still I find it more coherent > and overall better. CONAN RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 20:02:53 -0500 From: Dustin Clingman Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo Sorry guys... I have read the books many many times and neither film was a disappointment to me. I know that PJ and crew took great care in how they presented the world. The way that they talk about their task on the extended DVD spells that out clearly to me. This was no small undertaking and nothing that was left out or modified was done so lightly. Perhaps you didn=92t like the adaptation, but it's very simply = an experience that was as true to the originals as it could be. I as one hardcore fan am satisfied with both films and eagerly await the third. It just can't be identical. Expecting it to be is foolhardy at best. The movie would easily be 6 hours long. The version that is available just might rejuvinate the game industry and actually bring more people into D&D. Hwo could something like that be bad? Dustin --- Dustin Clingman Zeitgeist Games www.zeitgeistgames.com=20 //-----Original Message----- //From: Mystara RPG Discussion=20 //[mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of JJJ //Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 6:51 PM //To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM //Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] LOTR II =3D taboo // // //la Volpe wrote // //> I haven't seen the 2nd movie yet, but the things that //> got me most infuriated in the first one were two: //> //> 1) Gimli seems to be a total idiot; I hope this //> changes //> in the second movie // //Unfortunately the danmed director only sinks our beloved=20 //dwarf even more in the mud..... PJ really doesn't like Gimli!=20 //There is no battle scene in which he excels, and even for a=20 //puny jump he must be humiliated by Aragorn. Legolas gets all=20 //the fantastic tactics and tricks. The second film was a big=20 //dissapointment to me, my good friends. I agree that, for=20 //those who had not read the books, it may be good, but anyone=20 //who remebers the fantastic dialogue between Gandalf and King=20 //Theoden, must be ashamed by the "exorscism" that occurred... // // //> One last thought: I still think "Conan the Barbarian" //> with good ol' Schwarzy is still the best fantasy //> movie ever. The feeling is much different, it's //> sword and sorcery and not epic fantasy, it has no //> special effects but still I find it more coherent //> and overall better. // //CONAN RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;) // //******************************************************************** //The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp //The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ //To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM //with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. // ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 20:04:43 -0500 From: Dustin Clingman Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo I "heard" that... The sequel to D&D is in slow production right now. New Line bought the distribution rights for the film and completely paid for the cost of production. Everything at the Box Office was profit. They did so to prevent any possible interference with the release with LoTR. Dave Arneson was in the movie as one of the mages in the last big fight with the Dragons. They let him keep his costume and he seems to wear it far too often.. :) Dustin --- Dustin Clingman Zeitgeist Games www.zeitgeistgames.com //-----Original Message----- //From: Mystara RPG Discussion //[mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Darth Darknerd //Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 5:30 PM //To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM //Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] LOTR II = taboo // // //> Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 08:32:36 -0800 //> From: Joe Kelly //> Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo //> //> Well for those of you that say you didn't like LOTR //> II then so be it, but in comparison to the D&D //> movie, the Dungeons and Dragons Movie Sucked big //> time!!! Although I saw it I saw LOTR 3x compared to //> D&D once. There is no comparison for fantasy movies. //> And no I am not talking about what was in the movie, //> I just mean based on what I saw. At least LOTR And //> LOTR II were more realistic like Gladiator and //> Braveheart. D&D on the other hand was like a bad //> B-Movie! //> //> JK Wolf // //Yes, D&D Movie was so bad. I stayed throughout the //whole movie because I was stunned with belief. That //movie is up there with Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. // //Now, I'm shocked that people don't like LOTR II. I //am so shocked, even more mortified than when I was //watching D&D. I think this movie is the best movie of //the year. Now, ok, it might not be verbatum as the //book, but the movie, graphics, just the entertainment //value alone, this movie rocks. All of my friends, //love the movie and most have seen it at least twice. // //Curiously, I wonder how LOTR and LOTR II did in the //box office compared to D&D movie. // //peace out, // Joaquin // // //__________________________________________________ //Do you Yahoo!? //Yahoo! News - Today's headlines //http://news.yahoo.com // //******************************************************************** //The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp //The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ //To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM //with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. // ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 16:56:26 -0800 From: Mike Harvey Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo (spoiler alert) SPOILER WARNING! > Unfortunately the danmed director only sinks our beloved dwarf even more in > the mud..... PJ really doesn't like Gimli! There is no battle scene in which > he excels, and even for a puny jump he must be humiliated by Aragorn. > Legolas gets all the fantastic tactics and tricks. No way. Gimli was as cool as anyone else at Helm's Deep! How many time was he completely surrounded by foes (usually because he dived or charged into them) and fought his way out, even when his friends thought nobody could possibly have survived it? How about the textbook "whirlwind attack" at the front gate -- sure Aragorn tossed him in first, but it was Gimli that made the main assault and cleared the way! Or how about when he was felling an Uruk-Hai with every swing on the wall, counting "17... 18... 19..."? Gimli easily held his own as one of the main heroes in that battle. I'll grant that the other heroes were cool too, and Gimli couldn't participate in ranged attacks. And I'll grant that he was a bit of comic relief, but aren't dwarves always comic relief? Thye're still my favorite race even so, and fine warriors to boot. > The second film was a big > dissapointment to me, my good friends. I agree that, for those who had not > read the books, it may be good, but anyone who remebers the fantastic > dialogue between Gandalf and King Theoden, must be ashamed by the > "exorscism" that occurred... If they included all the original dialogue in the books, the movie would have been a ten hour sleeper. It works in the books because you don't read them in one sitting, and you have all the time you need to digest the eloquent language slowly. Most movies that try to have clever eloquent dialogue end up just being hard to understand, because if you don't catch a phrase you can't go back and re-read it and you end up getting lost. And Tolkien is a *master* at clever eloquent baroque language! PJ had to do something to keep the drama without losing the audience, or else turn it into an obscure art film that only appealed to the hardcore fringe. > CONAN RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;) No argument there! Though I still think LOTR was a far better quality film, and just as much fun to watch. And I can watch it with my wife, whereas in the Conan films she cocks and eyebrow and says "you really like this stuff?" and wanders off to do some laundry. Mike -- Mike Harvey -- Beaverton, Oregon http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/ ICQ: 15446302 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 23:26:22 -0500 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo > > 1) Gimli seems to be a total idiot; I hope this > > changes > > in the second movie > > Unfortunately the danmed director only sinks our beloved dwarf even more in > the mud..... PJ really doesn't like Gimli! There is no battle scene in which > he excels, and even for a puny jump he must be humiliated by Aragorn. I don't think he was humilitated by being "tossed" (was this in the books? I do recall them using the secret access to help fend off that attack, but I'm not sure about thowing the dwarf). He was slow to keep up with man and elf while running, but that matches Tolkien, IIRC. His lines may not have matched the book exactly, but I found his persona quite admirable, entertaining, and typically dwarvish. After all, most of D&D's dwarvish traits stem from LotR, and as such what might be stereotypical to D&D gamers is not to the rest of the movie-going public who have no idea of dwarves other than Snow White. Plus, he kicked ass with his axe! He had his share of close calls, but so did all of the characters. > Legolas gets all the fantastic tactics and tricks. The elf as more-than-human was cool, demonstrating that they're not just men with pointy ears who live in the woods. The second film was a big > dissapointment to me, my good friends. I thought some scenes were really amazing, but as a whole, I left somewhat dissatisfied. I thought the movie kind of dragged, but I went on opening night to a late showing, and I was quite tired and in a cranky mood the later it got, plus my wife fell asleep and I had to keep waking her up! We both decided to see it again at a normal hour and I will reserve my judgement until then. I agree that, for those who had not > read the books, it may be good, but anyone who remebers the fantastic > dialogue between Gandalf and King Theoden, must be ashamed by the > "exorscism" that occurred... I completely diagree! I thought this whole sequence was done brilliantly by PJ, and it brought Gandalf's magic and power to life vividly on screen. It's not supposed to be a word for word translation from book to film, yet some dialogues are, much to Jackson's credit. I find that *all* of the characters ring true to the book, and come off the way Tolkien intended them. Two Towers wasn't perfect but I don't find the deviations from the novel to be a negative. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 27 Dec 2002 to 28 Dec 2002 (#2002-335) ****************************************************************