Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 28 Dec 2002 to 29 Dec 2002 (#2002-336) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 30/12/2002, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 11 messages totalling 467 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Byzantium Resources (2) 2. LOTR II = taboo 3. Morality of D&D... 4. Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (3 of 3) (3) 5. MISC: The Two Towers (4) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 01:59:55 -0800 From: Darth Darknerd Subject: Byzantium Resources As I was going through my website, I remember reading some great historical books, that read more like great novels. I wanted to let everyone know about these books. This guy Julius is an awesome writer, and some of the resources are actually from priests' notes. These can be great resources for Thyatian Empire ideas and court politics. Here are the books: ---> Byzantium: The Early Centuries http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0394537785/qid=1041155156/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/002-1458916-2096822 ---> Byzantium: The Apogee http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0394537793/qid=1041155122/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-1458916-2096822 ---> Byzantium: Decline and Fall http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679416501/qid=1041155156/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-1458916-2096822 Notes: I use Amazon links, as they have pictures and stuff. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:21:55 +0200 From: Solmyr Subject: Re: Byzantium Resources Of course, if Byzantium is mentioned, one cannot forget the fantastic book by Warren Treadgold, "A History of the Byzantine State and Society", the most detailed work on the Byzantine Empire I have seen yet. Here's the link: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0804726302/qid=1041160835/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-3609866-1471960?v=glance&s=books Darth Darknerd wrote: > > As I was going through my website, I remember reading > some great historical books, that read more like great > novels. I wanted to let everyone know about these > books. This guy Julius is an awesome writer, and some > of the resources are actually from priests' notes. > > These can be great resources for Thyatian Empire ideas > and court politics. > -- Solmyr of the Azure Star solmyr@kolumbus.fi World of Enothril website - http://enothril.topcities.com/ The Archmage's Tower - http://www.geocities.com/solmyr.geo/ "War does not determine who is right. War determines who is left." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 12:30:26 -0600 From: Stone Marshall Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo

Since everyone else is on the on the list is putting in thier opinions, here is mine...I liked the movie...the book is better...but the first movie was much better and more true to the book.

>From: Thibault Sarlat
>Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion
>To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
>Subject: [MYSTARA] LOTR II = taboo
>Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 00:23:40 +0100
>
>FEAR MY WRATH Mr. HARVEY!!!!!! ;+))
>
>i agree that it's the best heroic fantasy movie ever.
>
>i also agree that some changes had to be made to match modern day tastes.
>(but i don't see how they differ from the one of Tolkien times...)
>
>but then , you must have the courage to call it a palimpsest just like
>director JJ Annaud did with the Name of the Rose . (he had it written that
>it was just a palimpsest of the novel by Umberto Eco)
>
>same here. liberties are taken with the original story, then it's not the
>same story.hence you can't use the same title or it's parasitism....
>
>And if privately you can explain to me the reasons why he made every big
>change, then i'll be more than happy to receive them.
>
>I also know that the process of reading is active whereas the one of seeing
>a movie is not (at least not so much active). Hence the difficulty to adapt
>a book.
>
>it's not a waste of time, i agree. Some good laughs (gimli's remarks which
>were absent from the book)
>but even if i hadn't read the books 32 times, some lines were so lame, that
>i thought that it was a B serie movie of the 70's...
>it's not a work of genius.
>just like the hobbit said about themselves: "plain and quiet"
>
>if someone wants to call it the best film ever, that's fine but let me
>encourage him to see more movies.( and i don't have the pretention to
>dictate what's good and what's not.
>
>Different people, different tastes.
>
>so long Mike.
>
>
>Thibault Sarlat.
>Techniques de l'Ingénieur
>Port: 06 84 92 32 55
>Fax: 05 56 96 85 24
>www.techniques-ingenieur.fr
>
>ICQ 16622177.
>Personal homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st
>thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr
>
>********************************************************************
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MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 3 months FREE*. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:02:08 -0800 From: Darth Darknerd Subject: Morality of D&D... As I was going through module B6, there was a decent alignment challenge. Player characters come across some thugs up to no good. It mentions that players that kill them outright, as opposed to turning them into the authorities, will have to change their alignment to Chaotic (in D&D1e+, that's evil). I was thinking about this, and how most players acquire things is by having their characters commit murder and then looting the bodies. It'd be equivalent of murdering a pickpocket thief, and then going through his dead body to pilfer valuables. However, most modules only provide for a way to "get the goods" by killing. Shouldn't there be other avenues. Do good deeds get rewarded? Perhaps the modules reflect the creator's society? I was thinking of ways to allow player's to do good deeds, and get the reward. Take the Shield of Halav for instance, in the Hail the Heroes module. Player's are supposed to retrieve the shield and return it to the church. I thought of buffing the shield up, by adding abilities of Fire Resistance and greater bonuses. This shield will be a great temptation. Perhaps, upon return each party member is blessed in someway (like a wish*). Additionally, if one player is a follower of Halav, he can be made the caretaker of the shield. By doing the good deed, further plots can come out… The Cult of Halav might still harass the "caretaker". Continual usage of the shield will change the caretaker's hair to red. The Cult of Halav might have a new "vision" showing that the PC is the new incarnation of Halav. The Church of Karameikos, through the Duke, might seize the shield for academic studies. If the caretaker doesn't hand in the shield, they could be made into criminals. If the shield is handed over, the player is imprisoned, or killed/wounded in trying to protect the shield, mass riots throughout Karameikos. If the caretaker willfully handed over the shield, the Duke will return the shield (in order to avoid outright rebellion), and afterwards, the player's could be come trusted custodians of the state and go on special missions for the crown. Otherwise, the player's could become suspected plotters as the faithful will now start to follow the player in a pilgrimage. ** the wish can be in a form of what Halav can provide. Most crafted weapons and armor (bronze, but magical), bonus point in any ability (2 pts for strength), permanent bless, etc. - Joaquin __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 20:28:15 -0500 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (3 of 3) From: "Cassandro Glantri" > > Here's another idea: Alphaks (an Immortal demon) created Morphail (an > undead, who may well be an Immortal candiate). It would not have been a > surprise is back on Laterre, the nosferatu who sired Sharvari (Nyx) had > some diabolical connection. Oh, I wonder how my co-worker Sharvari would react if she found out what we were doing with her name! I must of course accept full responsibility, since I gave that as the name Nyx had in her mortal life after I found out what it meant in the original Hindi tongue. I actually know somebody who would have been a better physical match for Nyx as depicted in WotI, but somehow "Annie" just did not seem to be a suitable name to give her.... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 20:32:18 -0500 From: David Knott Subject: Re: Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (3 of 3) From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" > > I love the idea the devils are the fiends of the myth dimension (and > therefore they are the ones who plagues the nightmares of Averoignians > and Anglais people. My idea was actually that they should be having to deal with both sorts of fiends. The "Normal" dimension has to deal with CE demons, the "Nightmare" dimension has to deal with LE devils, and the "Myth" dimension has to deal with both. > But I don't see the problem with lawful evil undead. Especially vampires. The only problem is that in D&D vampires are traditionally chaotic evil -- and Nyx certainly has more in common with a vampire than with a mummy or any other traditionally lawful evil undead. Still, if we make her a nosferatu rather than a standard vampire, we may still have some "wiggle room". ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:02:28 +0800 From: "Francisco V. Navarro V" Subject: Re: Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (3 of 3) ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Knott" > From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" > > > > I love the idea the devils are the fiends of the myth dimension (and > > therefore they are the ones who plagues the nightmares of Averoignians > > and Anglais people. > > My idea was actually that they should be having to deal with both sorts > of fiends. The "Normal" dimension has to deal with CE demons, the > "Nightmare" dimension has to deal with LE devils, and the "Myth" > dimension has to deal with both. Yep, the Dimension of Myth ain't the happiest place in the world... or rather the multiverse... or multidimensionverse... IIRC my CAS stories, and there's on there about Azedarac/Azerdac, an evil Averoignian priest who summons demons and devils... creepy. No wonder, the d'Ambrevilles chose the Mystaraverse... at least you can tell the evil fiends by their chaotic nature... > > But I don't see the problem with lawful evil undead. Especially vampires. > > The only problem is that in D&D vampires are traditionally chaotic > evil -- and Nyx certainly has more in common with a vampire than > with a mummy or any other traditionally lawful evil undead. Still, if > we make her a nosferatu rather than a standard vampire, we may > still have some "wiggle room". Oh, quit butting heads you two, Ohad and David! Them's the rules... and only the rules! OD&D Chaotic meant either chaotic or evil. When translated to AD&D, some Chaotic things stayed chaotic, some became just evil (meaning lawful evil). GKoM lists Morphail as CE, but story-wise, I'd say he's Lawful evil with occasional bouts of chaotic destruction (Alphaks's influence). The thing is he's Evil all across the board! Lawful evil when plotting in Glantrian politics, Neutral Evil when dealing with personal matters, such as with family and vampire pawns, Chaotic Evil when dealing with enemies and rivals. Perhaps we should give him a new alignment: Erratic Evil or Random Evil, depending on the mood or situation. Nyx is listed in WotI as being Neutral. AD&D terms I would place her in Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil, without any qualms of acting Chaotic Evil once in a while. She's one of the Big 3 of Entorpy, for Immortal's sake! She can act anyway she wants! Besides, in the magnitude of Immortal politics, Chaos and Lawfulness are relative. She may act Chaotic now, but's its actually a part of some larger, grand scheme to confuse the enemy, so her behavior is Lawful... Oooh... I'm getting a headache... Kit Navarro ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 21:00:59 -0400 From: Paul Westermeyer Subject: Re: MISC: The Two Towers > lightly. Perhaps you didn=92t like the adaptation, but it's very simply an > experience that was as true to the originals as it could be. I as one > hardcore fan am satisfied with both films and eagerly await the third. > It just can't be identical. Expecting it to be is foolhardy at best. The > movie would easily be 6 hours long. The version that is available just > might rejuvinate the game industry and actually bring more people into > D&D. Hwo could something like that be bad? It is a good film, but it is not as close to the original as could be. Fellowship was fine, IMO, but Two Towers, while a good film, misses Tolkien's point on several issues. I understand the complex political situation could not be easily translated re: Rohan and Saruman but adding drama by having Theoden disagree with Aragorn and Gandalf after his curing was illogical and not needed. What other option did Theoden have besides Helm's Deep? Also, Aragorn's fall and river drifting was not needed. I felt they didn't cut anything important, they just added things that detract from the over all point of the film (Faramir and Osgiliath , for example). Also, you could really tell the difference between Tolkien's dialogue and that of the screenplay hacks. By contrast, the final fight at the end of Feloowship enabled the viewer to see ideas that Tolkien was able to imply in the novel (such as Aragorn's rejection of the ring). In a movie, it worked better being spelled out, IMO. The Two Towers additions do not work, however, in large part because they add messages to the films that Tolkien would have rejected as juvenile and shallow. IMO. Oh, and Elrond is horribly miscast. I keep expecting him to say 'Mr. Anderson' and and talk about humanity as a virus. It is still a good film. It just isn't the best Two Towers adaption possible= =2E -- "We sleep safely in our beds, only because rough men stand guard in the night, ready to visit violence upon those who would do us harm." H.G. Wells. Paul Westermeyer, westermeyer.3@osu.edu Phd Candidate, History, Ohio State University Instructor, Humanities, Columbus State Community College ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 20:25:28 -0800 From: Mike Harvey Subject: Re: MISC: The Two Towers > Oh, and Elrond is horribly miscast. I keep expecting him to say 'Mr. > Anderson' and and talk about humanity as a virus. LOL! Yeah I totally agree on this one. He seems way too arrogant and even sinister in the movie. You almost expect him to be a secret enemy agent, like Wormtongue. Mike -- Mike Harvey -- Beaverton, Oregon http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/ ICQ: 15446302 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:26:26 -0600 From: Ron Rogers Subject: Re: MISC: The Two Towers > LOL! Yeah I totally agree on this one. He seems way too arrogant and > even sinister in the movie. You almost expect him to be a secret > enemy agent, like Wormtongue. > > Mike > -- > Mike Harvey -- Beaverton, Oregon > http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/ > ICQ: 15446302 Elrond, of all the Elves, should not have made the disparaging comments about Men that he did in the first movie. He is Peredhil himself, with ancestry from First and Third Houses of the Edain and the Noldor. His own brother Elros (Tar-Minyatur), chose to become human and was the first king of Numenor. Aragorn is his distant kinsman and he raised him in his household. The additional scene in the extended version does help "soften" Elrond a little. Ron Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:07:24 -0800 From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: MISC: The Two Towers At 23:26 12/29/2002 -0600, Ron Rogers wrote: > Elrond, of all the Elves, should not have made the disparaging > comments about Men that he did in the first movie. He is Peredhil > himself, with ancestry from First and Third Houses of the Edain and > the Noldor. His own brother Elros (Tar-Minyatur), chose to become > human and was the first king of Numenor. Aragorn is his distant > kinsman and he raised him in his household. Hmm. I have a brother who freely criticizes me and my choices, whatever our relationship. Elrond is a person, not an ideal. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 28 Dec 2002 to 29 Dec 2002 (#2002-336) ****************************************************************