Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 29 Dec 2002 to 30 Dec 2002 (#2002-337) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 31/12/2002, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 13 messages totalling 548 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. MISC: The Two Towers and Elrond 2. MISC: The Two Towers (2) 3. Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (3 of 3) (3) 4. LOTR II = taboo (4) 5. University Feats (2) 6. FW: WotC's answer to "Still more bugs in ESD maps!" ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 09:23:58 +0100 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: MISC: The Two Towers and Elrond my two cents: As a peredhil, Elrond has chosen to be counted with the children of Iluvatar. That makes him more than a man. His long life has him helped men many times, and he is probably not the kind of high elve to treat humans with spite and resent. Yet this affair between Arwen and Aragorn reminds him of his losing his parents and the choice they had to make. he knows more than any other elf how bitter is the gift of Iluvatar ( aka death). Hence his father reaction to the affair. Just like his ancestor did to Beren, he gives Aragorn an impossible task to accomplish for him to have his blessing to marry his daughter (good drama engine here). So Elrond should not have disparaging comments about Humans (for he has human blood), but his motives and means have been "materialized" in the movie by these comments about human weakness (yet he probably simply meant that he witnessed this weaknesses and the biggest of them was not to destroy the ring when they had a chance to). MY GOD, I JUST AGREE WITH PETER JACKSON!!!!!!!ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I need a check-up now... there is a wicked curse on the Earendil's kin... Thibault Sarlat. Techniques de l'Ingénieur Port: 06 84 92 32 55 Fax: 05 56 96 85 24 www.techniques-ingenieur.fr ICQ 16622177. Personal homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:53:31 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: MISC: The Two Towers > I understand the complex political situation could not be easily > translated re: Rohan and Saruman but adding drama by having Theoden > disagree with Aragorn and Gandalf after his curing was illogical and > not needed. What other option did Theoden have besides Helm's Deep? > Also, Aragorn's fall and river drifting was not needed. I felt they > didn't cut anything important, they just added things that detract > from the over all point of the film (Faramir and Osgiliath , for > example). Also, you could really tell the difference between > Tolkien's dialogue and that of the screenplay hacks. Well, definitely those elements deviate from the books, sure... but I think that the Osgiliath scene is a merging of the meeting of Faramir and Frodo in TTT with the Nazgul attacking Faramir in RotK... the third book (and thus the movie) has TONS of stuff going on (and very little can be edited away without damaging the story's integrity- well, I hope PJ agrees with that), by having the attack take place on TTT, the action in RotK can be sped up when Denethor receives Faramir's wounded body and goes bananas. My only problem with it is that Faramir's and Frodo's exchanges become too cut, yes, in the end Faramir renounces the Ring and lets him go (braving his father's future wrath), but the dialogue is way too short. I hope that there's some remedy to it in RotK, when Gandalf and Denethor argue about Faramir. The Theoden plot seems to be underscoring one of the "ideological choices" PJ has taken in portraying the LotR: Theoden is calling people's attentions to the need of common men and women (all the others are discussing big War vs. Evil plans at Edoras while hamlets are being put to the torch)... Aragorn follows this advice and therefore you can see his heroic-leader role grow on screen, developing the psychological line started in Fellowship, where he's afraid of partaking Isildur's fate. By choosing to help Rohan's "civilians", he's moving further and further away from that scary fate. All of that is quite clear in the novels, where you have tons of pages to grasp the role and duty of the Dunedain, but the movies need a bit more of explicitness. What is doubtlessly (at least IMO) good of the movies is that PJ made ideological choices in the rendering of Tolkien's world in the movies, choices which not all Tolkienist would agree upon: like the "technological" portrayal of Saruman and his explicit verbatim relationship to "industry" or the pervading feeling of "temptation and self-denial" throughout the movies (in the book, this Messianic feeling is more confined to Sam and Frodo). Again, these ideas come so subtly in Tolkien (as they have 1000+ pages to hint and unfold), in movies they have to stick to a few well defined lines (with a lot of visual support). What is pleasing is that the director and team have taken those choices of careful interpretation of Tolkien's world (and you can see it went down to reading more than the trilogy, there are strong lines of thought which have to go to Silmarillion, UT and so on), even if I don't agree with all of them. That's to me the sign of a good work, that they have taken the adaptation of a fantasy novel as seriously as adapting classical "serious" literature (like Faulkner, Miller, etc), though, as all interpretation, is open to debate and perfectioning. Andres ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 03:11:58 -0800 From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" Subject: Re: Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (3 of 3) >> But I don't see the problem with lawful evil undead. Especially vampires. > The only problem is that in D&D vampires are traditionally chaotic evil -- and Nyx certainly has more in common with a vampire than with a mummy or any other traditionally lawful evil undead. Still, if we make her a nosferatu rather than a standard vampire, we may still have some "wiggle room". "TRADITION!!!" (Feedler on the roof plug) Of course, the monsters in the rulebooks are just recomendations and different rules give different alignments. I think vampires would work wonderfully as both CE and LE with the ocassional LN and (eeuwww) LG- like the one who is Buffy's freind (Angelos?). So there is always "wiggle room" Morphail (who is not evil at all, just has a nasty habit of arranging lab accidents) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 13:20:10 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo On Fri, 27 Dec 2002, Thibault Sarlat wrote: > yet i still reret to have launch the subject. i still fear a flame can > come.... Fear not. There are enough lists in the world where one can wage war. We have mostly been very amicable. As fo my two kopec's worth... discounting the usual uneasiness with the hollywood action genre, I liked the film more than I thought possible. I was very positively surprised with the changes that have been made to the storyline. This is a trilogy that is meant to stand on its own feet, not just for people who know the original story. This requires keeping at the surface many elements of the story which sometimes submerge in the book: The lovestory - which is actually the story of the fading of elves and the rise of men. Thus the fall of Aragorn, which allowed for the "appendix" better than just the usual " at the same time in another country..." line. Also Tte presence of the ring and its temptations - the reason who Faramir "had to" be made into a more boromiresque guy. His goody two shoes personality works in the book, but for the film it wouldn't have worked as well. Since movie doesn't allow for hundreds of pages of developing the power of the ring, it is up to poor Faramir to represent the will to power of all men, and the ability to overcome temptations. The only thing which really bugged me was the fact that a nazgul SAW Frodo and the ring. That goes against the logic of the whole story, book and/or movie. The invisibility of the hobbits, their "fool's road" was the whole point, wasn't it? Anyway, nice to read from you guys again. Ville ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 03:25:01 -0800 From: "Ohad Shaham (Morphail)" Subject: Re: Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (3 of 3) > Oh, quit butting heads you two, Ohad and David! Them's the rules... and only the rules! OD&D Chaotic meant either chaotic or evil. When translated to AD&D, some Chaotic things stayed chaotic, some became just evil (meaning lawful evil). No butting at all... Just a freindly nudge. > GKoM lists Morphail as CE, but story-wise, I'd say he's Lawful evil with occasional bouts of chaotic destruction (Alphaks's influence). The thing is he's Evil all across the board! Lawful evil when plotting in Glantrian politics, Neutral Evil when dealing with personal matters, such as with family and vampire pawns, Chaotic Evil when dealing with enemies and rivals. Perhaps we should give him a new alignment: Erratic Evil or Random Evil, depending on the mood or situation. When I think of Morphail he is basically LE, and indeed has to deel with the CE nature of his despised master. However, I always prefered a full description of personality instead of the one axis/two axis alignment system. So after an intemete relationship with the dark prince for some years now, I don't need the "lawful evil" stuff anymore. What I like about Mystara is that alignments (especially the good vs evil thing) is not such an importent concept. The rulebooks do stress allignments way too much, but they do save time. > Nyx is listed in WotI as being Neutral. AD&D terms I would place her in Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil, without any qualms of acting Chaotic Evil once in a while. She's one of the Big 3 of Entorpy, for Immortal's sake! She can act anyway she wants! Besides, in the magnitude of Immortal politics, Chaos and Lawfulness are relative. She may act Chaotic now, but's its actually a part of some larger, grand scheme to confuse the enemy, so her behavior is Lawful... > Oooh... I'm getting a headache... > Kit Navarro To save you further headaches my good freind, we should thank Mystara's original authors (and pet ourselves on the soldier) fot the fact that most charachters and immortals have rich and clear personalities that most often exeed the scope of the alignment system(s). Yeay for us. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 13:42:19 +0100 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Arcana Mystara: Demonology v.1.0 (3 of 3) Ohad Shaham (Morphail) wrote. > To save you further headaches my good freind, we should thank = Mystara's original authors (and pet ourselves on the soldier) :) I know it's not nice to poke fun at people's language skills, but that = had me so cracked up that I simply can't let it pass... I hope you mean = "pat ourselves on the shoulder", for "petting the soldier" is something = entirely different! lol! No offense meant, really. ;) Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 08:54:52 EST From: Wizards Shopper Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo > Curiously, I wonder how LOTR and LOTR II did in the > box office compared to D&D movie. > peace out, > Joaquin I have the total U.S. gross numbers on that. Here they are: LotR - $313,364,114 LotR2 - $200,000,000+ D&D - $15,185,241 Not much of a comparison. It's funny because I remember the D&D movie hurrying to get their picture out to beat LotR. Looks like it didn't matter. --- -- --Rich ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 09:32:20 -0500 From: Dustin Clingman Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo Just remember.. that's 15 million in profit, not counting any merchandising or video sales. I am sure there were some. In fact I have a couple of things. $15 million is enough to get a second movie out and it will come on the heels of all the LoTR success. It will probably make more money the second time around. Dustin --- Dustin Clingman Zeitgeist Games www.zeitgeistgames.com //-----Original Message----- //From: Mystara RPG Discussion //[mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Wizards Shopper //Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 8:55 AM //To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM //Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] LOTR II = taboo // // //> Curiously, I wonder how LOTR and LOTR II did in the //> box office compared to D&D movie. //> peace out, //> Joaquin // // //I have the total U.S. gross numbers on that. Here they are: // //LotR - $313,364,114 //LotR2 - $200,000,000+ //D&D - $15,185,241 // //Not much of a comparison. It's funny because I remember the //D&D movie hurrying to get their picture out to beat LotR. //Looks like it didn't matter. // //--- -- --Rich // //******************************************************************** //The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp //The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ //To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM //with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. // ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 08:29:35 -0800 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: LOTR II = taboo Ullpp!!! Sequel??? Oh god! Say it isn't so! That is a bad joke, and should = not be played on anyone. If they do a second movie it better be a hell of = a lot better than the first! JK Wolf >>> dustin_c@BELLSOUTH.NET 12/28/02 05:04PM >>> I "heard" that... The sequel to D&D is in slow production right now. New Line bought the distribution rights for the film and completely paid for the cost of production. Everything at the Box Office was profit. They did so to prevent any possible interference with the release with LoTR. Dave Arneson was in the movie as one of the mages in the last big fight with the Dragons. They let him keep his costume and he seems to wear it far too often.. :) Dustin --- Dustin Clingman Zeitgeist Games www.zeitgeistgames.com=20 //-----Original Message----- //From: Mystara RPG Discussion //[mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Darth Darknerd //Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 5:30 PM //To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM=20 //Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] LOTR II =3D taboo // // //> Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 08:32:36 -0800 //> From: Joe Kelly //> Subject: Re: LOTR II =3D taboo //> //> Well for those of you that say you didn't like LOTR //> II then so be it, but in comparison to the D&D //> movie, the Dungeons and Dragons Movie Sucked big //> time!!! Although I saw it I saw LOTR 3x compared to //> D&D once. There is no comparison for fantasy movies. //> And no I am not talking about what was in the movie, //> I just mean based on what I saw. At least LOTR And //> LOTR II were more realistic like Gladiator and //> Braveheart. D&D on the other hand was like a bad //> B-Movie! //> //> JK Wolf // //Yes, D&D Movie was so bad. I stayed throughout the //whole movie because I was stunned with belief. That //movie is up there with Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. // //Now, I'm shocked that people don't like LOTR II. I //am so shocked, even more mortified than when I was //watching D&D. I think this movie is the best movie of //the year. Now, ok, it might not be verbatum as the //book, but the movie, graphics, just the entertainment //value alone, this movie rocks. All of my friends, //love the movie and most have seen it at least twice. // //Curiously, I wonder how LOTR and LOTR II did in the //box office compared to D&D movie. // //peace out, // Joaquin // // //__________________________________________________ //Do you Yahoo!? //Yahoo! News - Today's headlines //http://news.yahoo.com=20 // //******************************************************************** //The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp=20 //The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/=20 //To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM=20 //with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. // ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp=20 The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/=20 To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM=20 with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 11:31:39 -0400 From: Paul Westermeyer Subject: Re: MISC: The Two Towers > At 23:26 12/29/2002 -0600, Ron Rogers wrote: > >> Elrond, of all the Elves, should not have made the disparaging >> comments about Men that he did in the first movie. He is Peredhil >> himself, with ancestry from First and Third Houses of the Edain and >> the Noldor. His own brother Elros (Tar-Minyatur), chose to become >> human and was the first king of Numenor. Aragorn is his distant >> kinsman and he raised him in his household. > > Hmm. I have a brother who freely criticizes me and my > choices, whatever > our relationship. Elrond is a person, not an ideal. Yes, but Elrond the Person in the movie is not the same as Elrond the person in the books. In this case I think it is as much the acting as the dialogue. And there was no need to change Elrond like this. -- "We sleep safely in our beds, only because rough men stand guard in the night, ready to visit violence upon those who would do us harm." H.G. Wells. Paul Westermeyer, westermeyer.3@osu.edu Phd Candidate, History, Ohio State University Instructor, Humanities, Columbus State Community College ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:07:11 -0800 From: Darth Darknerd Subject: University Feats Here's a feat for Thyatians. IMC, I give every Thyatian human this feat. ------------------------------------------------------ Every good citizen should be educated in the university, as this is Thyatian proper. This is what seperates us from other inferior races of the Known World. Prerequisistes: Int 13+ Benefits: You gain +3 skill points at character creation and every two levels thereafter (1,3,5,7,9,etc.). There points may only be put into Knowledge skills. Special: This feat may only be taken at first level. ------------------------------------------------------ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:07:32 -0800 From: Darth Darknerd Subject: University Feats Here's a feat for Thyatians. IMC, I give every Thyatian human this feat. ------------------------------------------------------ Every good citizen should be educated in the university, as this is Thyatian proper. This is what seperates us from other inferior races of the Known World. Prerequisistes: Int 13+ Benefits: You gain +3 skill points at character creation and every two levels thereafter (1,3,5,7,9,etc.). There points may only be put into Knowledge skills. Special: This feat may only be taken at first level. ------------------------------------------------------ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 21:45:05 +0100 From: Federico Kaftal Subject: FW: WotC's answer to "Still more bugs in ESD maps!" FYI. Federico Kaftal _____________________________ >> From : "SVGames - Support" To : "Federico Kaftal" Subject : Re: Still more bugs in ESD maps! Date : Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:01:11 -0800 Thanks for contacting us. These fixes should be coming over in the next batch of corrections. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_addphotos_3mf ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 29 Dec 2002 to 30 Dec 2002 (#2002-337) ****************************************************************