Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 3 Feb 2002 to 4 Feb 2002 (#2002-35) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 05/02/2002, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 14 messages totalling 878 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. KenzerCo has Mystara license (2) 2. Mystara license and infrindgement (5) 3. A Kenzer Response Regarding Mystara Line (2) 4. NPC: Laren Nightmaster 5. Sword Damage. (4) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 00:32:38 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: KenzerCo has Mystara license At 04:34 PM 2/2/02 -0800, you wrote: > > All other worlds were declared dead... Unless somebody wanted to buy the > right to develop stuff for it. Ravenloft has been bought by White Wolf > (those guys who publish the Vampire and Werewolf games) and it now seems > Kenzer & Co. have acquired the Mystara rights. Just to clarify, Kenzer has apparently licensed the rights to Mystara, they haven't bought them. WotC still owns the trademarks and rights to the Mystara line (as well as Ravenloft) as I understand it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:06:23 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: KenzerCo has Mystara license FOr those not following the thread on the EN World boards, here's the extent of what has been said. As I read it, Kenzer & Co. are likely *not* going to do *anything* with Mystara, and if they do, it will only be for Hackmaster products (which is seemingly all they have the license to do). Presumably, (as the Kenzer rep on the boards himself states) the license for other Mystara products may be available from WotC- who continue to own the copyrights to the setting. I think that we may be getting a bit too alarmist here, certainly until more is known about things. - From the ENWorld boards (http://www.enworld.org) - *Trance said* Please tell me you're not going to trash any other basic D&D modules. Pretty much the rest of them are set in Mystara, which has a fairly rabid fan base (including me), and would be quite upset if you messed with it or rewrote history. Trance, *Dave at Hard8 replied* Since we have the rights to Mystara...who knows? Maybe we'll trash that and run it through the mud if we don't sell enough of B1 and B2... :-) heh heh heh (grins evilly) Dave *(Note the joking tone- Me)* *Shane Henry asked* Could you share some of your plans for the setting? Perchance, is James "Mystaros" Mishler going to be doing any work on that line? Shane *Dave at Hard8 replied* Intersting question. Right now we have no plans. But anything we do would only involve HackMaster (since that's what we have the right to do). James has worked on KenzerCo products before (and in fact was briefly an employee, then customer at a distributor). Frankly, I'd love to see James do some work for us (I believe he was discussing more Kalamar work a while back with Brian Jelke, but my memory could be failing me). Dave *Dave at Hard8 replied in a question by Orcus* Orcus, I assume you are referring to the HackMaster products. Unfortunately, none of that stuff will be OGL/d20/open content. Our license extends only to making "HackMaster" products. But if you want to use it for a d20 campaign, it's pretty similar stuff...branches from the same trunk so to speak. regrads, Dave *To another poster, Dave at Hard8 responded* <> I was kidding about "running it through the mud" -- we try to improve everything we touch, perhaps sometimes we fail, but not deliberatley. <> Our license does include Mystara. *Dahak asked* Is your use of Mystara limited to Hackmaster or do you have the rights to a D&D/D20 setting based on the world? *Dave at Hard8 replies* Dahak, Not absolutely sure on extent of license (without digging it out and trying to decipher the legalese), but I will tell you we currently have no plans to resurrect any old stuff for use with 3e, especially not campaign settings as we already have one to support (Kalamar) and that's hard work! Aside from that, the field is already crowded with a dozen or more campaign setting choices, so there isn't much money to be made with yet another offering (even one as solid as Mystara). Dave *Dahak then noted* <> *To which Dave responded* I don't think we are squatting on the Mystara properties. I don't know for certain, but I would guess WOTC would let anyone with enough cash go ahead and buy a d20 license to the trademark like WW did with Ravenloft. If we were to do anything with Mystara, it would be in the same vein humorous HackMaster vein as "Robinloft" will be. So just for fun and assuming there was no chance of a d20 version, how many of you would actually buy a "Mystara" product for the HackMaster game? Dave - End EN World correspondence - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:27:26 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Mystara license and infrindgement At 04:57 PM 2/3/02 -0500, you wrote: > > So, IANAL, but I would say that Mystara is safe for fans (dispite my > initial reaction) to write up our own stuff, but we can't sell it. Kenzer > is the only company who can legally sell Mystara-branded materiel. > > This could get ugly in the future. How so? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 04:41:31 -0500 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Mystara license and infrindgement On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Andrew Theisen wrote: > >This could get ugly in the future. > > How so? Just in such a way that if Kenzer puts out Mystara stuff, people will get the impression that Mystara is a 'garweeze wurld' type of parody. I wrote a lot of my previous rants without thinking it through. But if I had, would this be the MML? We're a great group of people.. just prone to overprotecting our 'child'. Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:58:51 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Mystara license and infrindgement SteelAngel wrote: > I wrote a lot of my previous rants without thinking > it through. But if I > had, would this be the MML? We're a great group of > people.. just prone to > overprotecting our 'child'. This is totally understandable. But I think what was just witnessed on the list was a slight case of hysteria. I find it unlikely that we will see either HackMaster Mystara or Kenzer Company trying to close down our websites in any near future. The fact that the name Mystara comes up every now and then though, is a good thing. Maybe we should encourage KenzerComp to aquire the full lisence to publish Mystara as a serious setting for D20..? If their Kingdoms of Kalamar doesnt work out, they might be looking for a new fantasy setting with an established fan base which will buy any _quality_ products they may want to produce.. Havard ______________________________________________________ Sjekk snørapporter... fra 500 ski-destinasjoner i Europa på http://no.snow.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 06:41:13 -0600 From: Web Warlock Subject: Re: Mystara license and infrindgement Yes that is very true. Plus, they are most likely to go after FR sites than Mystara ones. I have heard Wizards' reps say that much. Warlock. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of George Hrabovsky > Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 9:35 PM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Mystara license and infrindgement > > > Thanks for pointing out my mistake on point #2. One additional > point that I > would make about the whole thing is that for WoTC to act it must > act as soon > as it becomes aware of the problem, it cannot allow an activity > to continue > for several years and then try to stop it. It must also attack every > instance of the problem occuring, it cannot single anyone out. At > this point > it would be nearly impossible for them to accomplish this without > seeming to > be picking on someone. If they intend to do this (and I doubt > that they do) > I think it is too late. > > Still, as you point out, it does not mean they can't do it... > > George > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Web Warlock" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 9:13 PM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Mystara license and infrindgement > > > > I am not trying to pick on you George, but there are some > points that need > > to be made here. > > > > > > > > > > There are several legal points here, from the perspective of a writer: > > > > > > 1. There is NO way to copyright a name, ever. It can't be done. We can > use > > > any name within the Mystara cosmos as freely as we like. We > can even use > > > named principles freely. > > > > Almost true. Yes you cannot copyright a name. But a company can have > > trademarked intellectual property. Mystara is obviously the IP > of Wizards. > > It does not matter if they develop anything for it or license it out to > > someone else. > > > > > > > > > > 2. The only time trademark infringement becomes an issue is when > > > you sell a > > > similar product. They key word here being sell. > > > > A lot of people think this, but it simply is not true. A company has to > > defend it's trademarks or it runs the risk of seeing these trademarks > either > > lost or "watered down". This issue comes up all the time on > the OGL lists > > and everyone game company rep on that lists says the same thing; it does > not > > matter if you are making money or not. > > > > > > > > > > 3. While they may have a "license" to use the Mystara stuff for their > own > > > purposes, this does not give them exclusive rights over the vast > > > quantity of net-based material that has existed from before > the collapse > > of Mystara > > > within TSR to the present and into the future. The only case they > > > might have is if someone copies their material and publishes it on the > web > > for free, > > > that would be piracy... > > > > They cannot use the webstuff. This is correct. Most companies would not > want > > to. > > > > > > > > > > 4. The material on the web is copyrighted to the authors of that > material. > > > TSR allowed Mystara to die out completely in, what? 1996? The net > > > community > > > has been actively developing the material for six years. I know > > > that I have > > > been developing Mystara stuff since 1986, and that I have put > > > some of it out > > > on the net. I can certainly argue in court that I have as much > > > right to the > > > material for non-profit purposes as anyone else. > > > > > > But you could lose. TSR may have dropped the Mystara line, but that did > not > > in any way dilute their or now Wizard's legal claims to the IP. > While you > > own material is your own, it is material built on a shaky foundation at > > best. > > Non-profit does not matter. If Wizards can show that they can > not develop > > for Mystara (something they own and paid for) because of the > overwhelming > > fan contributions (no influx of cash to them then), then a > judge can shut > > you down. But even before that you would get a C&D letter from > > Wizards/Hasbro's lawyers, and so would your ISP. I have forgotten the > > countless sites that were shut down in the early 90's by TSR. Anybody > > remember when all of this had to be underground? How many of you had to > get > > a password to Morpheus' "TSR free" site? > > > > > > > > > > 5. You can produce your own Mystara material so long as it neither > > > substantially copies what someone else does (or gives complete > > > credit if you > > > do so, with permission) and/or you have developed far more > > > material than you > > > have copied. For example, with my Borigon stuff, while it is > true that I > > > have developed a guide to Karameikos for the Borigon system and have > used > > > resources from the old stuff to do this. However, everything is > > > substantially changed and much has been added. While the > flavor has been > > > kept, it is a different place. > > > > > > Or it could be argued that it is derivative. The question the > courts will > > ask would have developed this the same way if you did not have access to > the > > previous work. > > > > You can produce any and all the Mystara stuff you like, under > the auspices > > of Wizards and their on-line use policy. If you go outside of the safe > > harbor of that policy, then you do run the risk of Wizards' legal > reactions. > > > > > > > > To sum up, it would be difficult for anyone to force us to stop > > > what we have > > > been doing for years. TSR dropped the product line and then > > > allowed everyone > > > to develop it freely. I can only imagine the legal arguments > that would > be > > > required to shut us down... > > > > > > George > > > > > > > Difficult, but not impossible. > > To be perfectly honest TSR neither dropped the Mystara line, nor allowed > > anyone to free develop it. It was to them a dead line, but they still > owned > > it. Fan created things for it as fans will do. > > > > Here is the point. > > Wizards is not going to go after fan sites. While they can and > have every > > legal right to do so, they know they would shoot themselves in the foot. > > The gaming industry is not made of money, litigation costs > everyone. Most > of > > the developers are only a few years themselves of being "just a fan" > > themselves. But to pretend to hide under the umbrella of "of this is > > non-profit" or "I don't make any money from this" is not a stance you > should > > take. > > > > Bottom Line. > > It does not matter what Kenzer Co. does with Mystara. When I started > playing > > in Mystara all I had was module X1. Everything else I made up. I will > still > > regard the fan stuff as my sources of "new" Mystara information. > > > > Warlock. > > > > -- > > Web Warlock > > web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com > > Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks > > The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/ > > The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/ > > -- > > "If that is all the Gods can do then I'm over to the Dark Side > so fast!" - > > Tom Servo, MST3k > > > > ******************************************************************** > > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:02:16 EST From: Wizards Shopper Subject: A Kenzer Response Regarding Mystara Line Hello Rich! > I have heard that your company purchased the rights to Dungeon and Dragons > world of Mystara line. Is this true? The answer is "no". -- Tracy Customer Service Kenzer & Company www.kenzerco.com > From: crlptonite@aol.com > Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:13:46 -0500 > To: questions@kenzerco.com > Subject: Mystara > > Hello, > > I have heard that your company purchased the rights to Dungeon and Dragons > world of Mystara line. Is this true? If so, what are your plans for the > future of Mystara? > > Thanks for your time, > > Rich ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:42:57 -0800 From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: Re: A Kenzer Response Regarding Mystara Line At 09:02 2/4/02 EST, you wrote: > Hello Rich! > >> I have heard that your company purchased the rights to Dungeon and Dragons >> world of Mystara line. Is this true? > > The answer is "no". > > > -- > Tracy > Customer Service > Kenzer & Company > www.kenzerco.com May one ask why? Are the D&D rights prohibitively expensive, or simply something you have no interest in? BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:50:56 +0000 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: Mystara license and infrindgement > > One can argue in court that the abandonment and lazzez faire attitude of > fan-works using Mystara for the period of nearly seven years constitutes > That's laissez faire, Im a french canadian, sorry for nitpicking. Also who said lawyers were the parasites of society ! Their the glue that holds society together ! _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:55:20 +0100 From: Daniel Mayer Subject: NPC: Laren Nightmaster Hi, all! Finally, I made the 3rd-E version of my ex-PC. May seem quite powerful, but our adventures were quite heavy, and nearly every PC at least once died... For the magical items: I never see items in the standard NPC-descriptions at Pandius'? May not be very important, but some special items a NPC owns would interest me. By the way, I never heard opinions about my story -[snief]- :`( ********************************* (long) ********************************* Laren Nightmaster (formerly 'Firefriend'), 4th lvl fighter/17th lvl wizard, human, 36 years old Str 16 (+3) (14 at 1st lvl, +1 at lvl 12, +1 at lvl 16) Dex 15 (+2) Con 16 (+3) Int 22 (+6) (18 at 1st lvl, +1 at lvl 4, +1 at lvl 8, +2 due special at lvl 15) Wis 14 (+2) (13 at 1st lvl, +1 at lvl 20) Chr 13 (+1) Saves Fort +15 (12 + 3 ring of protection) Ref +11 (8 +3 ring of protection) Will +16 (13 +3 ring of protection Alig. NG Speed 30 Size M AC 26 (20 at ease, bracers only when adventuring) HP 132 (+4 stored in Elminster`s Evasion) Base Melee Bonus +15/+10 quarterstaff base: +16/+11/+6, 1d6+5 damage, Crit 19-20, x2 dam. Nightstaff: +21/+16/+11, (1d6+10)x2 dam., x3 on crit. Quarterstaffs are most likely used as 2-weapon-combo, resulting in +14 base attack (3 attacks), +19 (#att:3) with Nightstaff. So he's a master in quarterstaff fighting... Base Missle Bonus +14/+9 Special: Dracologist (5th lvl, Master of Silver Dragon), Spell Combination, Quicken Spell (Instead of summon familiar feat) (All taken from Glantri GAZ) Permanent Spells "onboard": Mind Blank, Elminster`s Evasion, True Sight Feats: Scribe Scroll, Spell Mastery (6 Spells), Forge ring, Craft Staffs, Craft Weapons&Armor, Combat Casting, Silent Spell, (Quicken Spell), Spell Penetration, Combat Reflexes, Focus: Quarterstaff, Specialised: Quarterstaff, Impr. Critical: Quarterstaff, Impoved Initiative, Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon-Combat, Impr. Two-Weapon Combat. Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Dwarven, Sylvan, Celestial, Orc, . Skills: Alchemy +14, Climb +10, Concentration +23, Craft (Gemcutting) +16, Craft (Weaponsmith) +16, Diplomacy +8, Heal +11, Intuit Direction +9, Jump +9, Knowledge (Geography) + 11, Knowledge (Arcana) +21, Knowledge (Religion) +10, Knowledge (Planes) +14, Profession (Teacher) +12, Ride (Horse) +10, Ride (/Flying) +14, Scry +17, Search +8, Spellcraft +22, Swim +8, Wilderness Lore +8 (Total Mods) Possessions: Bracers of Defense +6, ring of wizardry (III), ring of Mobility (Teleport & Telekinesis), +5 Robe of Shadows (3/day shadowwalk, 3/day Wraithform, Deeppockets, clean, non-detection, as armor of blackflame, may changed by mental command into any form of (black) clothing), ring of protection +3, +5 Staff of Laren (no charges: as staff of power (OD&D), staff of elemental (OD&D), nightfire I & III, Spell Turning, Summon Staff, Fortify, 2x phys. damage, x3 on crit.), Carpet of Flying, Nefradin`s Identifier, Amulet of the Planes, 6 metal vials of full healing, many lesser items stored in the Tower of Dreams. Spells known (4/6/6/10/5/5/5/3/2/1): An Extra Spell-List should be available some time in the future. Laren learned in Glantri, so I took the Great Netspellbook as basis. Of the "standard"-known spells, Laren should know all 1st-5th lvl spells, and some really extraordinare 1st-7th lvl spells. He owns the Tower of Dreams, an 1000 year old tower, located in Karameikos near Lake of Lost Dreams. Many old traladaran spells were found there. And Laren likes to walk planes since he learned that spell. So some Greyhawk- and FR- spells are known to him, too. As minimum, you can estimate all spells of Core Rulebook I as his own - some perhaps in an old-fashioned way... To the Karameikan population, Laren is known since his appearance as ambassador of Glantri in 1005 AC (Laren F4/W13). He lived there in the diplomatic service for 4 years, cleansing Krakatos and the main area around the Lake of Lost Dreams (LoLD) when time allowed. When Terari opened the School of Magecraft, Laren felt himself a little under pressure to make a great deal himself. His goal was to fully clean the once beautiful land near Haven. So he organized a political drama in Glantri, resulting the belcadiz ambassador noted in the GAZ to be posted as ambassador against her will, freeing him of that responsibility (F4/W15). He went on adventuring with Flosi and Elaya to gain information about the Tower of Dreams and its inhabitants (1009-1012). He met the Seer at the LoLD and learned much, including about its heavy defenses. Not being able to cast 9th lvl-spells himself -and therefore not able to counter the main defensive spell- he researched a spell to modify that spell once it is in effect (See the story "Shadows lifted"), eventually gaining the ownership of the tower after a heavy hack'n-slash (spring 1013). He lives now (1016) with a staff of 5 wizards (lvls 13, 10, 9, 9, 8) and about 10-15 students of the Art. In addition, the tower is run by a small staff of household beings, like a fire elemental in the cellar for heating air and water, at least two invisible stalkers, and some servants for defense. The elemental (fire) and the stalkers (=air) are there by free will as payment for a service Laren and his friends did for them some years ago. All three change here and then, because it's a hundred-year service paid by lesser rulers of these planes. The fire elemental is changing each week, sometimes larger, sometimes smaller. The stalkers only change every two years, because they have much fun watching the students and all the fairy people showing up the tower irregularly (unicorns, elves, fairies, centaurs, etc.). Notable defenses of the tower are of course the Nightfire and three "Blades" (HD10 Sword-Demons, each attacking with 2x 2-handed swords +3). They are only activated when special conditions occur, defined by Laren or DM. The students are most likely from the whole duchy. Laren takes no money for teaching, so some of the students may even come "from the street". Laren and his colleagues sometimes craft items for rich people if money gets low. Students at his tower may freely choose to multiclass with ranger or fighter, gaining the training from Elaya (F14/W5), Thrandir (R15) or the other elves living around. Laren himself trains every student at quarterstaff-fighting, so all his students have to take the corresponding 'focus' feat. Laren gained access to the dracologist cult in Glantri. IMC there's a high master for every dragon colour, choosing a head of the cult between themselves by vote. Each mage has to take the colour according to his alignment. The tower stands on a clearing in the Vyalia-Elf-Woods, a few hundred feet near a medium-sized waterfall of the River of Lost Dreams. The ground surrounding the tower is pure and smooth rock, enhanced by the Nightfire-spell. The entrance of the tower is even-grounded and flanked by two statues of unicorns. Until his conquest of the tower, these were two 'stoned' unicorns, freed by Laren now. The unicorns organized the replacement somehow over night. During the three years Laren owns the tower now, some other 'fairy'-statues found their way to the area surrounding the tower. Special magic of the elves made flowers grow from the stony area, so the tower stands in a beautiful garden now. These three years Laren crafted his staff, his robe and then walked some planes and alternate realities. Officially, Laren holds the title of a baron of this area. In fact, this is just the formal title to give Laren free access to all major cities and courts. The elves rule themselves and go along quite well with the new neighbour, since Elaya is Vyalia and a hero in addition. Laren is on neutral friendship with Terari, since the minister of magic recognizes the political, divine and arcane power the 'Silver Stones' hold: Aurelius (P11/Templar 8) runs a fortified abbey near Krakatos with Flosi Hammerhand (F4/C14) at his side, and Thrandir (R15), Elaya (F14/W5) and Laren (F4/W17) live in eastern Karameikos at the LoLD. By the way, Laren was raised from dead two times. He had a busy life so far. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:10:38 -0800 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Sword Damage. How does everyone handle sword damage. IMC, if a character is run-through, = My players always ask, how much damage? My response is that the sword does = 1d12, so 12. Then there response is, "Well, my character can handle 70hp = of damage so I turn and attack. Excuse Me? How does that work? What am I doing wrong here? yes the sword = does 1d12 damage, and even if it is triple, that's 36pts. There character = has just been run through. In otherwords their dead! But I can't seem to = make them grasp this situation. Or better yet, what of a short sword? A = dagger? Just because they have 70 or 100 hp's shouldn't mean anything. = Help! JK Wolf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:09:38 -0800 From: Mike Harvey Subject: Re: Sword Damage. I assume you're talking about an automatic hit, such as when someone has a sword to their throat and just pushes it through. In that case, they're dead. Hit points mostly represent your ability to avoid taking serious damage. Losing hit points in combat is more about running out of luck and stamina than really getting hurt. Sure you take a scratch and bleed a little, but you don't notice it much. But when hit points reach zero, your luck finally ran out -- you moved a little too slow, and were gutted by your opponent's blade. At this point, you're going to die unless someone does something fast. However, hit points are only good when you are able to defend yourself, when you can do something about the potential threat. If death is a sure thing and you are powerless to prevent it -- such as when someone has a knife to your throat, or when your foe casts Finger of Death -- you still have a slim chance. That's what saving throws are for, when you can't do anything to save yourself. The way I've handled this in the past is that when someone gets the drop on you and stabs you, you get a saving throw. Success means you take normal damage -- the blow missed a vital area, the foe slipped, or whatever. If you fail, you lose all hit points, THEN you take damage from the attack. This is a great (but deadly) way to handle backstabs! Example: Gristle the Fighter has 70 hps. He is backstabbed by a cowardly thief for 3 hp. If he made his save, he'd only take 3 hp damage. Sadly he fails, and is now down to -3 hp. At this point I'd probably let the poor guy make a CON roll to stay conscious and dismember his attacker before he dies, or maybe drink a potion. Hope this helps you get things under control! :-) Mike ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:10:02 -0800 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Sword Damage. Thanks Mike, that helped a lot! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:17:58 -0800 From: The Stalker Subject: Re: Sword Damage. On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:10:38 -0800, Joe Kelly wrote: > How does everyone handle sword damage (snip) Sounds to me like you could use a Critical Hit system... :) The problem here is that while Hit Points are easy to work with, they don't exactly make an awful lot of sense. Yes, if they were the same for everyone, it would be such a big problem, but there can be *huge* differences. For example, a normal person (non-adventurer, I mean) could have only 4 points or less, yet IMC I have PCs with more than 130+ hp, so how does that add up? Well, the way I see it, a hit point system isn't completely illogical. The one they have in the Twilight 2000 system is pretty logical, actually, but then that determines damage points according to a few stats (comparable to Constitution and Strength in D&D), but there are separate points for each body part (torso, arms, legs, head, etc.) and being hit in one doesn't affect the other at all unless the pain goes so far it's life-threatening. Also, there are no levels to differentiate between "commoners" and "adventurers". In D&D I consider hit points to be relevant according to experience, meaning that a powerful warrior can better resist damage because of that experience - through many battles, his body has adjusted and "become used" to take all the punishment an adventurer comes across. Still, a wound is a wound, so 5 hp damage is still just that. However, for a 1st level warrior that might be half his HP and only, say, 1/20 for a really powerful warrior of level 12+ or so. So why is it so relatively less (since it's only 5% instead of 50% of the maximum) for a high level warrior? Well, to me it's, again, because of the experience - just as the body can take more damage from repeated exposure, so has the warrior learned to "roll" with the blows made against him. This is not a conscious choice on his point, just an intuitive reaction he has learned over the years, and because he "rolls with the blows", those blows don't affect him quite so much anymore... Or that's how I explain it at least. My players seem to accept that, though. But then that's just standard damage. How about being run through by a sword or dagger as you say? Well, that's what Critical Hits are for. Above and beyond the rules, I apply a golden rule I call the "basic stupidity clause", which states that a character dies if it is obvious that he should, because in that case I don't care how many bloody HPs he has left! If a character falls for a mile to land on sharp rocks in the mountains, then I don't care how many hit points he had left - then he is dead. Period! I also use the Critical Hit system from the 2e Player Option: Combat & Tactics book. It's a bit of a clumsy system, but actually makes a fair amount of sense. Use those pretty much as written (except that I have made a different table for determining severity so that hits become more deadly). I've also made a further addition to my rules - if a thief scores a critical hit on a backstab (that would be a Sneak attack in 3e), then the target most immediately roll a saving throw or die! A critical hit on a backstab is clearly a deadly blow to the torso of the victim IMO, so it should be able to kill a character outright, and IMC it can! If the character survives (makes his save), I then proceed according to the rules and have him roll a second save against the specific critical hit effect. If he makes that too, he "only" suffers the multiplied damage of the backstab (plus double or triple damage for critical hit). Yes, that can result in a sneak attack delivering only relatively little damage, even on a critical hit, but then the victim had to pass two saves to get there! - The Stalker ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 3 Feb 2002 to 4 Feb 2002 (#2002-35) *************************************************************