Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 17 Feb 2002 to 18 Feb 2002 (#2002-49) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 19/02/2002, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 10 messages totalling 510 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Frost Giant question (4) 2. MYSTARA-L Digest - 15 Feb 2002 to 16 Feb 2002 (#2002-47) 3. MYSTARA-L Digest - 13 Feb 2002 to 14 Feb 2002 (#2002-45) 4. MYSTARA-L Digest - 12 Feb 2002 to 13 Feb 2002 (#2002-44) 5. New Reader 6. Neverwinter Nights Update (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:23:31 +0200 From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Frost Giant question Recently I've been doing a lot of game.designing around Frost Giants, as I'm in the process of designing a giant clan in Rockhome. (I wanted to give some sense of reality to the dwarf-giant -battle in the module X10.) I scourged through the Vaults of Pandius looking for stuff on giants, but found surprisingly little of it. So, has anyone of you written anything substantial on Frost Giant culture? It would be a lot of help, since life at this moment doesn't allow that much time around game designing. I'm in a bit of a hurry, since we are propably going to play next month the next time, and the giant story will be played out then. Some background info: the giant clan is about 50 - 100 strong, and they are tring to construct a lasting fortress in the northeastern mountains. Their main goal is to try to control the Evekarr pass and loot the caravans passing through. Yours, Ville ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:29:38 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Re: MYSTARA-L Digest - 15 Feb 2002 to 16 Feb 2002 (#2002-47) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 21:06:40 +0000 From: Mike Harvey Subject: Size of the Old World > One thing that has always bugged me about Mystara is that the > original countries of the Old World are so much smaller than the > nations introduced later. The entire Old World is a blip on the map > compared to any one Alphatia, Belissaria, Sind, Hule, The Isle of > Dawn, Norwold, Esterhold... > One simple solution would be to change the trail maps from 8 > miles per hex to 24 miles per hex. This would make the Old World much > larger, and more in line with the other countries. Norwold would be > in the vicinity of Alpha and properly frigid, etc. This would mean > eliminating or moving Norwold (or making it smaller.. not much there > anyway), explanding northwest into the midlands of Brun, and > redrawing the interface between Darokin and Sind, which shouldn't be > too hard as there's only one major route. Thyatis is still small > compared to Alphatia, but at least now it's believable. > Has anyone done this? Is anyone interested? I have no trouble with the size of the Old World as it is, I even like the wide variety of continents, landforms and vast seas that make up the world (even if I don't have the foggiest Idea what 90% are). Now on to a different topic, here is what I don't like in the Mystara universe and what I did to change it. I dislike the way in which the world was made, the level of magic present on the world, the role of the Immortals and the where did Mystara fit in AD&D universe. I don't like the Hollow World, find Planescape to much of a hassle, and while I found Spelljamer fun, it clashes with the "realistic" type of campaign I like to run. As for level of magic in the world, I found it WAY to high, so I cut things down a lot. For the Immortals , I don't like the idea that they where once mortals, or that mortals can aspire to become Immortals. So with a stroke of my GM pencil, I made Immortals the Gods of my world and "revised" all the material on Immortals to reflect this change (Example Al-Kalim was a prophet of the God (insert name), and when he died, he was granted entry into paradise ; he did not attain immortality as stated in the Karameikos Kingdom of Adventure book). Finally, as for the place of Mystara in the greater universe, I eliminated the Plancescape/ Spelljammer settings, made space use the same natural laws as our world/space work under, and made space travel require advance conventional technology (like our own space programs) or very high level magical spells (extremely rare and expensive of course) in order to be able to travel between worlds. All these changes in order to make the world more "real" in the sense that the physics /natural laws of the world (and outer space) reflect the same physics/ natural laws on our own planet. I want the players to feel as if Mystara was very much like earth, and that they are campaigning in a world with "real world" physics, natural laws, and realistic consequences rule ( your PC can die with a single arrow/shot to vital body parts, they can be affected by hunger, cold, sickness if they don't equip themselves properly, they can be jailed, killed, or destroyed by politics, falling off heights or getting into fights can kill you dead quickly, and so on). The idea is that by stressing how "real" the world is, that when I introduce magical and fantastical elements, they stand out very markedly. Its the kind of game I like to play, and my players seem to enjoy it ( or not protests loudly enough) so that's what I am going with. YMMV of course. :) George V. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:20:31 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Re: MYSTARA-L Digest - 13 Feb 2002 to 14 Feb 2002 (#2002-45) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:54:21 +0200 From: Ville V Lahde Subject: Re: Elven battle losses > Alex, you are absolutely right that the elves are supreme fighters in > forest environments - especially Canolbarth, since the forest itself is > their ally. In the crude game terminology, I'd give them both the "elves > in forest" bonus AND the "favourable environment" bonus in War machine > battles that take place in Canolbarth. (Note: Even though the elven > irregular units are cavalry units, I would not penalise them in forest > surroundings, since we are talking about "elven war horses", a very > special breed. A bit like Gandalf's trusted companion in LOTR.) I like your idea for War Machine modifiers. I'll have to take a close look at those rules to see if I can apply the same bonuses for other races in their home environment. > It is also true that the elves aren't used to conventional warfare - with > some historical exceptions like large humanoid invasions and the shadowelf > incursions - they look at warfare like a big "game". This is one more > reason that a large conventional war would be a psychological, social AND > demographic schock to them. Hmmm.... When was the last time the Alfheim elves where involved in a mayor war before 1,000 AC? >> From what little I know, it doesn't seem like they have been practicing warfare for a long time, and that is reflected in their military forces make up. Compare that to the Rockhome Dwarves (IMC) that engage in warfare with the humanoids that infect the Rockhome mountains on an almost daily basis, and have developed a highly efficient military as a result. As for the results of the Inhuman War (800-808 AC) in my game, the Alfheim Elves had recovered after the invasion of their homeland, but at a price of many lives, an increase in their military forces, a loss of "elven innocence" sort to speak, an involvement in the politics of the "outer world" and a vast desire to never allow themselves to be caught off guard again. > I'm not sure however if they would be at "a supreme disadvantage" outside > forests. They are, after all, fully magic-using cavalry troops, armed with > magical melee and missile weapons. The question is more, as you rightly > put, whether they are willing to engage in petty human wars at all. the > disadvantage is more a social and moral one, not military. Not having the Elven Gazetteer, can you tell me a bit of how the elven military is made up? I am using the AD&D Elven Handbook as a guideline for creating my Alfheim elves and their military forces, but I don't know how that compare to the official material. One thing I did deiced upon, was that the Alfheim military is small, elite (made up from the elven nobles), lavishly equipped, but poorly lead, trained and with little battlefield experience. While they are very good in small unit actions in the forest, large scale troop combat is not something they are good at. > The main point of my original question was, what would happen after the > elves decide to intervene in a war outside their home forest. I think > there are good reasons why they would do so during the Nomad War: > destruction of Darokin by Master's (partly humanoid!) troops would > increase the propability of future attacks into Alfheim territory in the > future. And since elves of Alfheim are living smack in the middle of > an active human state, they are likely to have developed some sense of > foreign politics. For example, many elves are living in Darokin, they have > important trade interests... GAZ5 established pretty well, that even > though most of the elves are pretty alienated from the rest of the world, > as a nation Alfheim IS a political agent. In my game, the Alfheim Elves where the main target of the Inhuman Hordes, and the complete destruction of the elves was the main goal of the war. The leader of the horde calculated that the Elves presented the largest threat to their planed conquest of Darokin and Glantri if they where allowed to exist ( think of the Alfheim forest a large castle full of hostile elves just waiting to stab you in the back the minute they get a chance to get the Hordes view on the situation). Thus when the war started, the Horde split its forces into three parts ; two smaller hordes to pin down the Glantri and Darokin forces, and the main horde to destroy the elves. And they did a good job at it too for about 5 years of bloody battle. The elven superiority in their forest home prevent the Horde for just walking all over the place, but they couldn't counter the main advantage the Horde had : sheer numbers. Although a single elf could take down 100 Orcs before he died, the elves would always be on the loosing side of attrition. It takes about 100 years to replace a fallen elf , it takes only 10 years to replace a fallen orc (if not sooner). In a reversal of the quoted statements above, it was the Rockhome Dwarves that intervened (in their view) in a "foreign" war five years after it was already underway and after much of Glantri, Darokin and Alfheim had fallen. The Dwarves saw their profitable trade dried up with those realms because of the war, and they saw a long term national security threat taking shape if the Horde was allowed to conquer new lands and breed new forces unopposed. It would only be a matter of time before the Horde turned its eyes to the riches of the Dwarves and launched an invasion of Rockhome. Thus, the Dwarves had no choice but to intervene in the Inhuman War in order to protect their economic and national security interests. (Taking a page from the history of the US in WW1, I will have the Dwarves loudly proclaiming their neutrality in the "foreigner's war" during the first 5 years of the war while simultaneously and secretly building up their military forces for the day when they decide to go on the offensive.) > On the consequences of elves fighting foreign wars the low breeding factor > is undoubtably the most important. This is one thing that I'll try to > emphasise IMC. The PCs were enthusiastic when they managed to get Doriath > sign the alliance treaty, but they will learn that this won't mean total > commitment. I also gave the Elves low breeding factor and important consideration in the way the elves fought during the war, as they would trade space for time , engage in hit and run actions, and avoid any pitched battles where elven casualties would be heavy. This of course only helped to slow down the Hordes incursion into the forest, and not stop it. Interesting fact, every time I write something in this "Elven battle losses" thread, I have a clearer and more detailed view of the events that happened in my campaigns back story. Thanks for everyone that has helped me to shape my ideas. :) George ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:57:59 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Re: MYSTARA-L Digest - 12 Feb 2002 to 13 Feb 2002 (#2002-44) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:39:02 +0200 From: Ville V Lahde Subject: On Elven Wars > Your storyline seems quite cool, Giorgio. Thanks on the ideas. You really > did change the political landscape of you Mystara. The economic and > political effects must have created a host of adventure possibilities in > your campaign. I especially liked the elevated status of Rockhome, and the > lowering of elf-dwarf tension - I've been thinking of something like that > in my Nomad War, since the elves and dwarves will most likely intervene in > the Ylari invasion of eastern Darokin. (Ylaruam didn't join the war on the > side of the Nomads, but declared war on Darokin nonetheless - a diplomatic > trick that frustrated the PCs to no end - mainly by using the "traitors" > and "subversives" of Selenica as casus belli.) I wanted a different take on the traditional Dwarf-Elf rivalry, so I came up with the Idea of the Inhuman War and the Signing of the Dwarf-Elf peace treaty in 815 AC . (Anyone have a good idea of a name for this treaty?) I also changed the animosity of the two races into one of growing friendship (192 years young ; popular among the "new generations' but still found unconvincing among the "old timers" on both sides) . This also allows me to have dwarves and elves in each others realms (great for adventuring and role playing possibilities) and for fielding joint Dwarf -Elf armies in the next war. > IMC the elven losses in the Nomad War won't be that bad, although breaking > the Darokin siege and the eastern intervention will be costly. Still, the > ideas on the isolationist clans and Elven War Bands (doing "crusades" in > Sind/Hule?) sounded good. IMC,the Alfheim Elves would only engage in warfare outside of their borders if the cost of not doing so would be to great to bare. I don't know much about the Nomad War, so I don't know if the above statement applies. As for the Eleven War bands, it has only been (1,000-808 AC)... 192 year since the end of the Inhuman War. A LOT of civilian elves lost their lives in that war, and many military elves lost their friends, families and loved ones also. And for a race that can live for hundreds of years, 2 centuries is not enough time to grieve for those loved ones. Thus the burning need of many elven warriors to kill every humanoid race involved in the war until they too die in battle. This is of course not officially condoned by the Alfheim government (which can't afford to have its veteran warriors kill themselves in bloodthirsty quests for vengeance) but which cant do much short of jailing them to stop them. You got to see (as a GM) the great role-playing possibilities here for both the PCs (even if they are not "slayers", they might know friends and families that died in the war) and for those bitter, vengeance driven warriors who have vowed eternal war against their enemies (which goes against many of the "live and let live" mindsets the elves had before the war, but which are considered perfectly normal now). > In the future war most of north-western Alfheim may yet be devastated - > i've been thinking of using this as a catalyst for the CM7 Tree of Life > thread, as the worsened situation of Alfheim forces them to look for > resettlement areas in the lost Sylvan Realm. Thos might fit best for the > isolationist sects, propably... I am not familiar with the CM7 thread, can you give me an overview? > BTW, did you involve the Oenkmarians in your humanoid wars? They don't ring a bell. Can you tell me about them? So far I know that I have as participants in the Inhuman war the following: >> From the GW Warhammer Orcs & Goblins Army Book: Orcs, Black Orcs, Big'Uns, Orc Boar Boyz, Goblins, Night Goblins, Night Goblins Fanatics, Squigs, Snotling Swarms, Trolls, Giants, Wyverns ( Most of them renamed) AD&D Monstrous Compendium: Bugbears, Hobgoblins I am open to ideas for different race compositions. Hmm... looking at my black and white "D&D Expert Map #2 The Lands and Environs of the D&D Wilderness" map, it just occurred to me that for all the races I want the Broken Lands to be able to support, I need lots of food. And lo and behold I find the Ethengar Khante to the north of the Broken lands. Looks like I found my food source, and another aspect of the Inhuman War I need to think about. George V. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 07:21:22 -0800 From: George Velez Subject: Re: New Reader > Welcome aboard. From one George to another! Thanks! George ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:08:06 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Re: Frost Giant question -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Ville V Lahde Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 8:24 AM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: [MYSTARA] Frost Giant question > I'm in a bit of a hurry, since we are propably going to play next month > the next time, and the giant story will be played out then. There is something like this in the Dwarf Gazetteer ( a Dwarf-Giant war). Do you know about this? George ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:08:04 -0600 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Frost Giant question Here is what I have written about the Frost Giants of Karakeikos: Grokilan Frost Giant Clan. They live in ice citadels high in the Altan Tepes Mountains. They wear clothes of cold iron and ice. They have a clan head who is a High Priest of Hel. They have learned the magic of darkness, ice, and the religion of Hel. They have the technology of cold iron and ice. There are 23 frost giants in Karameikos. These frost giants call upon their power to control bears, and to conjure small armies of shadows to control an area. Once the shadows have "pacified" an area they move in and use their magics to enshroud the place in clouds where it will be perpetually winter. Hope this helps. George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ville V Lahde" To: Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 7:23 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] Frost Giant question > Recently I've been doing a lot of game.designing around Frost Giants, as > I'm in the process of designing a giant clan in Rockhome. (I wanted to > give some sense of reality to the dwarf-giant -battle in the module X10.) > I scourged through the Vaults of Pandius looking for stuff on giants, but > found surprisingly little of it. So, has anyone of you written anything > substantial on Frost Giant culture? It would be a lot of help, since life > at this moment doesn't allow that much time around game designing. > > I'm in a bit of a hurry, since we are propably going to play next month > the next time, and the giant story will be played out then. Some > background info: the giant clan is about 50 - 100 strong, and they are > tring to construct a lasting fortress in the northeastern mountains. Their > main goal is to try to control the Evekarr pass and loot the caravans > passing through. > > Yours, > > Ville > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:41:45 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Neverwinter Nights Update I have downloaded some of the graphics software from NWN Vault Site. I haven't messed with it yet. Anyway, I am hoping that the supplied tools will be sufficient and I won't have to do alot of customization. Anyway, I am just kind of waiting around for this thing to drop onto the market. In the meantime, I play Asheron's Call. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:25:55 -0600 From: John Polacek Subject: Re: Neverwinter Nights Update Realms of Mystara is planning on creating an intricate and accurate representation of Mystara, so being a developer on our team will probably require going more in depth as far using the tools. However, there will be an extensive community of module developers, and I am confident that learning how to script will be less difficult than some people think (especially with help from other people far smarter than I). I've never scripted anything, and I'm looking forward to learning as I go. That said, for those people who have no desire to learn scripting or create modules, we will eventually be looking for playtesters and DM's who are knowledgeable about Mystara and can offer advice on how to improve our work. We'll also be looking for quality, user-created modules set near Threshold or in Northern Karameikos (set in AC1000), and according to what we know about the game right now, you should have little trouble creating something like that. The more advanced stuff is more important when trying to put together a living, breathing town/city or some other complex environment. - Ashlander Producer, Realms of Mystara _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:33:20 -0800 From: Brendan Corliss Subject: Re: Frost Giant question Well, it doesn't necessarily have alot of detail - and it's not set in Mystara, but G2: The Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl might be a good place to start. I would imagine it would be fairly easy to find... as far as used modules go. -Damon BTW Congrats to the Finnish hockey team in their stomping of Russia. --- Ville V Lahde wrote: > Recently I've been doing a lot of game.designing > around Frost Giants, as > I'm in the process of designing a giant clan in > Rockhome. (I wanted to > give some sense of reality to the dwarf-giant > -battle in the module X10.) ===== May all your endeavors be Gold! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 17 Feb 2002 to 18 Feb 2002 (#2002-49) ***************************************************************