Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 23 Feb 2002 to 24 Feb 2002 (#2002-55) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 25/02/2002, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 6 messages totalling 296 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. A precision about the other MA products 2. Alex, the MA, and Me (4) 3. Updates to the Mystara 3E Web site ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 04:43:07 -0800 From: Herve Musseau Subject: A precision about the other MA products I checked again for the presence of those files (Selhomarr, Littonia, Alfheim invasion, Zoltan) on our website, and noticed that although they were physically present several of the links to them were incorrect. Thus, you couldn't download them unless you knew their true name, which isn't something you can invent. So, I copied them onto our new website, and updated the links. All of those files can now be downloaded from http://almanac.starflung.com Note that the links on the old website have not been updated. Note also that some of the older MA files, those that are presumably less used (like the .txt), are not all present on the new website yet. ===== ___________________________________________________________ Herve Musseau http://www.geocities.com/hmusseau/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 13:13:15 -0500 From: Former Mystaran Subject: Alex, the MA, and Me >> My appologies, in advance, to the rest of the MML for this. But when pushed, I push back. << Which more properly describes what I did. You pushed, again thinking that no one would contradict your distortions (and talk about paranoid dilusions). >> Vendetta? I am not the one that took umbrage to a whopping five (5) << No, you're the one who introduced those sentences (among others) into a mail that didn't need to include them (they didn't pertain to the discussion at hand whatsoever), bringing up matters from years ago for whatever reason. >> If I had a vendetta against you, I would have mentioned you specifically. << Not against me as such, but against those "people" you referred to slightingly, mischaracterizing their opinions for whatever reason of your own. Again, you didn't have to include them in any of the posts you made, certainly not on the subject of the Torpin, so your reason for doing so was apparently to try and create some sort of misimpression where you were sticking up for the proper thing against nefarious others. And you call me paranoid. . . >> The truth be told, I could give a rat's ass about you or your precious Thyatis. << Then why do you bring up these things, if you don't care? >> For the four hundreth and last time, Operation Hydra was created years ago back when the MML was on ionline.com and TSR was on AOL. You were not even a member of the MML then. << Not entirely true, for sure. The Hydra posts on Stan's site date when they were posted to the list. The tail-end posts at least were posted to the MML not too long ago. Whether or not I was on the MML or not at the time is irrelivant and why you would make a fetish of that is odd, given your statement that you don't give a rats ass about me. What was at issue was the content. >> Hydra was never intended to be incorporated into the MA. << I specifically mentioned in my post that you never pressed for it to be incorporated into the MA (though even that gave you too much credit, actually - you did mention in several MA discussions that you would have preferred "something like" your Operation Hydra to the plot outline Solmyr wrote). But it, especially when it came to what you wished for the Isle of Dawn, the Alphatian part of things, was certainly indicative - as I did say in my mail, it's something available for folks to see (on Stan's site) the kinds of things you pressed for if they were not around and/or don't have access to the archives. >> I was not even remotely affiliated with the MA then. << Several of the Hydra posts, by the dates in the MML archives and by the dating they are given on Stan's site, were made after you had joined the MA (though you might have submitted them in between being a member of the MA and quiting it and then rejoining again, then terminating your involvement). I don't know why you can't be honest about even things that are easy to verify, but whatever. >> You whine about the Nace gains in Hydra but never whine about the Thyatian gains. << I "whine" about the absurd nature by which they achieve their gains, especially by comparison to the Thyatian "gains" (so-called) (and the Thyatian gains are presented as much as due to the presence of Alphatians in the ranks, they, not the Thyatians, causing concern to the Minrothaddians, but that's another matter). You seem to believe it is somehow unfair (and thus to be characterized as "whining") to point folks to the attitude you take to these things and to comparable Alphatian/Nayce and Thyatian power. Whether Hydra was a completed project or not is, again, an irrelevant distraction: it illustrates the attitudes you carried, not just in that but in everything, including the MA, towards what could or should happen - and that you're criticizing others, folks you apparently have a grudge against (and thus have a felt need to infuse your discussion of the Torpin with these matters) - for things you yourself were guilty of. It's notable that you have the weakened, post-Wrath Alphatians seizing most of the Isle of Dawn in less than a week when it took the considerably stronger pre-Wrath Alphatian Empire much longer (nearly two years), even when fighting a Thyatian military undermined by Valerias' efforts. It's a point that should be made since folks should know, when you're criticizing others, where you're coming from. >> Pearl Islands and Ochalea...huh? Where did you get the idea that I wanted them in Nace? << Again, Geoff mentioned it to me, and you subsiquently confirmed that in a mail discussion you had with Solmyr when he asked you about it. Again, why you won't be honest about easily verifiable things is beyond me. >> Why would I extend Nace's territorial beyond the IoD? That contradicts my heavily stated stance in consolidating Nace territories and establishing Sphere's of Influence. Not to mention Nace becoming an isolationist region. << Of course it contradicts that, but you were never the soul of consistancy. >> Emerond joining Nace? Where in the name of Brittany Spears did that come from? The Emerond are on Davania. << Geoff mentioned your attempt to convince him to have Emerond join Nayce. >> My stance on Davania has been steady; let it develop with as little influence from Alphatia and Brun interests as possible. << Well, again you mistate things, because I do know, from Geoff (Mr. Davania) that in addition to trying to get him to have Emerond join Nayce you wanted to have an Alphatian colony sited there. >> The Randel...those refugees were added for a variety of reasons. << None of which explains why they had to be presented as such a overwhelmingly strong military force in the things you wrote (toned down by others). While you point fingers at others who you say were inapropriately making military changes. >> Economics...I seem to recall initiating cutting economic aid to devastated Nace regions. << You didn't initiate that on your own initiative; you grudgingly adopted parts of it after considerable argumentativeness (all around). Also, the limitations on the Torpin you talk about - well, to be fair, those also weren't what you had in mind. You had to be convinced by others, though you want to leave the impression you came up with them all by yourself. >> Thyatis was embroiled in a civil war. The populace was partitioned along revolutionary, neutrals, and loyalists lines. Taxation and economic flow was hindered as war waged on Thyatian soil under the walls of the capital itself. What funds were available had to be utilized to support Eusebius's forces, defend the borders, and expand at the same time. That's a heavy burden for an economy still struggling to recover from Wrath. << I mentioned the difficulties the Thyatians were having in my mail, but I did so within context: you always (and do so here) maximize the problems the Thyatians faced while minimizing or ignoring the difficulties faced by the Alphatians (the difference is striking in the MA 1016 Econ section you wrote. It carefully details the problems that the civil war caused for Thyatis, but presents an entirely upbeat and untroubled picture of Nayce's economic situation, when they were suffering at least as much from conflict and more from the fact that, if war raged on Thyatian soil the richest of Alphatian soil was gone) - you didn't, in economic considerations, take account of the disruptions of the flow of wealth from Esterhold (the mines having been closed due to unrest their and subsequent freeing of the mine slaves, the chaos and damage caused to the cities there), or the upheavals on Bellissaria, This was part, always, of your hypocritical attitude towards the impact of things and the relative strengths (it should also be remembered your reaction to the Crown War, followed by how you wrote the Bettellyn/Randel war - engaging in everything you faulted in the Crown War). This can be seen in your seeing "no problem" with additional military power, beyond that which even Alphatia had, for Nayce (and apparent belief that it didn't matter how much you gave them because they weren't going to unleash it - although then later always arguing that "well, if Thyatis is distracted then Nayce should take advantage of that" - again, a internal contradiction), but displaying major resentment towards the less significant additions for Thyatis (where you would have Nayce build fleets of submersables and suplimentary skyships to replace mundane ships, the Thyatians used a few modified versions of the diving bells they used to explore Sunken Alphatia in JA against the Twaelar, to your a ! pp! arent anguish. Where the Thyatians were presented in the MA as building about two skyships a year - along the lines of what they built in JA - you had Nayce & the Alphatians building upwards of a dozen, on a less solid economic foundation - and yet you point fingers at others). As for actual relative strength, Herve has told me (and others in some mails we had last year) that he see's Thyatis as being more powerful than Nayce (and he's hardly biased in favor of Thyatis. He's much more inclined to Alphatia and Nayce in particular and has said on several occasions that he is not fond of Thyatis), and even that he feels Thyatis could conquer the surface world if unchecked (something even I don't believe - conquering the world is much harder than some folks think, and even conquering "just" the Isle of Dawn isn't something that could be done in a week. Which is my point, above). >> Colonization...I was refering to the Thyatian colony you proposed in the Alatian Islands (Aegos or Gaity I cannot recall). This was to be Thyatis's vault point for expanding its trade and creating a trade empire to rival Darokin and Minrothad. Forgot that one didn't you? << Not at all. Did you even read my mail? I mentioned Gaity and Aegos - and that your issue over Thyatian colonization of "Nayce lands" there would be with Aaron Allston, not those you presented as demons in your snide assides. Aegos and Gaity had been colonized by Thyatis in the PWAs. Putting them Aegos use as a trade emporium would have seemed to be better than as a launching point for invasions. >> IoD is an established border region. I have always supported that. If anything was to be changed, I proposed breaking Dunadale up to allow the alphatian enclave of Deirdren independence from the Thyatian majority in Dunandale. << Not true. You originally proposed having your Randel Heroes fly near Dunadale, sparking a spontanious uprising on behalf of Nayce (which the Thyatians were to be portrayed, in your plot outline, as not reacting to), resulting in Dunadale rejoining Nayce. Again, something easily verified by those who were there and not really worth trying to deceive people about. >> I will be pretty ticked off from the private mails and respond to the MML in a less than gentlemanly fashion, thus making me look like the heavy and you as the victim. << Unlike, say, this mail, where you, in true gentlemanly fashion, refer to people you don't like as a "horses ass" and folks who give people who aren't normally around to defend themselves a heads up when they're views are being distorted as "underlings" and, of course, the reference to me as a "child" (though what would one call someone who put unessissary slights into a mail on a completely different topic?) If this is you as a gentleman, heaven help those who are subjected to you're behavior when you're acting as a jerk… Anyhow, you're attitude towards the Almanac process and what it should consist of was pretty well summed up in the complement you gave Herve and what his job consisted of in your mind: "sticking up for Alphatian interests while catering to other interests" - apparently you view the job of the *Mystaran* Almanac's senior editor as predominantly to aggrandize the Alphatians as much as possible and to throw a few bones to those with other interests to molify them. It was supposed to be a MYSTARAN Almanac - something you (and, to be fair, you're not alone) seem to have lost in your drive to prioritize "sticking up for Alphatia" - making sure they get the best of everything and that no other "interests" might share some of the spotlight. This is too bad and helped contribute to the factionalization of the Almanac. Everyone ended up in boxes, either "sticking up for the interests" of this or that region or devoting themselves to one corner of things where they thought they could w ! ri! te without having to deal with factional politics and conflict over who's "interests" were being catered to or not. There has perhaps been a problem with the MA from nearly its inception - and thus not entirely due to Alex - the guiding attitude among many, whether in or out, to encourage it to be a primarily Alphatian document (the central role of what would become the Nayce and the space devoted to things Alphatian as opposed to, say, Ethengaran or Five Shiresian), and to complain bitterly at anyone (such as my non-humble self) who tried to counter-balance and offset that viewpoint in the interest of other areas. The view seems to be that things were ok until this conventional wisdom got challenged - and that those who challenged it were the hypocrites. The good thing is folks can (and do) participate without strife as long as their contributions don't confront the attitude of the centrality of the Alphatians and their predominant importance and power (folks can write calmly for, say, the Northern Reaches or the Five Shires in peace, but the time and effort devoted by the MA Editors pr ! ed! ominantly involves "sticking up for Alphatia"), which is why I encouraged Herve to extend invitations to folks who were interested in areas like those (both the Shires and Northern Reaches), but would never recommend anyone who has an interest in Thyatis try to contribute. On too many points will their outlook conflict with the predominant faction, as Caroletti and I both found out to our regret and as Geoff knew all along (which was, he has said, why he picked the HKs and Davania as his areas of interest and avoided writing for Thyatis before I joined). But your introduction of introduction into a mail on a different topic of slights aimed at folks who you don't like and who's views you don't share, bringing up old issues (and then complaining that there was a response and apparently finding it inappropriate that someone would respond with the other side of the story, as if it was somehow childish for me to stick up for the other side), well it just shows how little has changed with you. Feel free to have the last word if you wish. I'll leave my remarks at the above, and leave the MML to be your playground because I can see how badly it upsets you to have your assertions contradicted. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:02:25 +0100 From: la Volpe Subject: Re: Alex, the MA, and Me > Everyone ended up in boxes, either "sticking up for the interests" of this or that region or devoting themselves to one corner of things where they thought they could write without having to deal with factional politics and conflict over who's "interests" were being catered to or not. This is very true. Once I wrote for the Thyatis group, but conflicts between Thyatiophiles and Alphatiaphiles were too much for me. I keep working on small areas long away from it all - Klagorst, Minaea, Tangor. This is a problem that may have been solved by Hervè and Geoff, I don't know now, but personally my experience was so unnerving that I doubt I'll ever work on Old World stuff again in the MA. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:10:58 -0500 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Alex, the MA, and Me Look guys, this argument has gone on several times now, and I don't think the List is going to be helped if we go through this again. I know it's an ugly matter, but please do not continue this here. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 22:15:16 -0800 From: "Jenni A. M. Merrifield" Subject: Updates to the Mystara 3E Web site The following updates have been posted to the Mystara 3E web site (URL in signature). 1. Information about the origin of Mystara and what defines the campaign settings has been expanded and moved from the home page into a new "About Mystara" section. 2. Two other new sections, one called "Mystaran Multiverse" and the other called "3E Conversions" have been added to the site. The former will eventually hold the 3E description of the cosmology of the Mystaran Multiverse Dimension. The later will eventually be the place to find step-by-step guidelines for how a DM can go about converting 0E characters -- PCs or NPCs, and standard or unusual races -- for use in a 3E campaign. This is also where we'll link any conversions of "important" NPCs and Mystara-related modules that are generated based on our conversion guidelines and the other work available at our site. 3. The "Immortals of Mystara" section is still incomplete but the eventual organizational structure of it has been defined and is included in the file. Note that the Immortals have been fully converted at this point. It's just that I ran out of time before I got that far :-). 4. New Cleric domains for Mystara and any new Spells associated with have been added to the "Magic in Mystara" section. Please note that the domain description (lists of spells and granted powers) are complete but there are not yet any lists indicating which Immortals provide which ones (for the same reason that the Immortals file is still incomplete). 5. Some new Mystara specific weapons have been added to the "Equipment" Section. 6. The information for the Forest Elf Race have been modified slightly so that some details which was originally only found in the Full Details for that race are now available as part of the "traits" and thus found in the main "Races of Mystara" page. This way, the minimum that a DM or player should need for all races will (eventually) be available on that one page. 7. Subsequently, the "Elven Magical Training" regional feat has been moved from the Full Details of the Forest Elf Race and into the "Skills and Feats" Section where it belongs. Also, a new feat called the "Basket Hilt Proficiency," which will eventually prove to be of particular importance to members of the Darokin army has been added to this section. 8. Some minor corrections and additions have been made to the source material details in the "Mystaran Lore" section. There have actually been a huge number of Mystara-related ESDs put up by WotC in just the last month, and I have a list of them, but (again) lack of time means I haven't caught up on the contents of the file yet either. So there you have it, we hope you find the time to check out our slowly developing work. And, if you do, and notice any problems with the web site itself -- bad links, typographical errors, etc. please contact me via the webmaster at the bottom of every page. Yours in Mystara, Jenni PS: This notice is only being sent to the MML and the M3E project general list. Please feel free to forward this notice to individuals not on these lists or tow any other mailing list, any message board or newsgroup where you feel this information would be appropriate and appreciated. -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield :: strawberryJAMM The Benevolent Despot of the Mystara 3E Project Team http://mystara3e.starflung.com/ strawberry@jamm.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 01:32:53 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Alex, the MA, and Me Geoff, This sick turd has taken me out of context, literally, for years to fuel this conspiracy theory of his. For the past few months, I haven't been posting on the MML for my own reasons. I never left, I just have not posted much. However, once I do post, within days I am assaulted by someone that has supposedly unsubscribed. Am I the only that finds that somewhat odd? He baited me into that last exchange and I fell for it. I am not making that mistake again. I could go and respond to his accusations; offering my clarifications and retorts. However, all that would serve is to provide him with more material to take out of context, harp upon obscure details, and outright lie. Though I have had disagreements with others on the MML and on the MA, most conflicts were minor and quickly resolved. There is always disagreement upon the MML, so that is not a big deal. In fact, it is part of the process that makes the MML the idea machine that it is. James is the only member of the MML that has seen conflict escalate to the extreme levels. Crap like this is something I do not need and do not want. I have more pressing concerns than being the focus of someone's need for an antagonist. My God, I am 30 years old, have a career, and have a real life. As you and Herve both know, I have have gone out of my way to limit contact with James. However, he finds a way to instigate more conflict. There is no resolution for this conflict because he neither seeks a resolution nor a general understanding to "agree to disagree". He wants conflict and he wants someone to place blame upon. That said, James can rant and rave all he wants. He creates enough conflict on his own without me having to offer him fodder for it. And since he seems to be the minority in his outright scorn for me...well...so be it. I know what what said and what was intended. I can live with that. Oh and James...if you're reading this...I did not read your post so the effort was wasted. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 23 Feb 2002 to 24 Feb 2002 (#2002-55) ***************************************************************