Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 24 Feb 2002 to 25 Feb 2002 (#2002-56) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 26/02/2002, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 6 messages totalling 922 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Issues and Resolutions (long but civil) (3) 2. specialty priests discussion (3) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:40:40 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Issues and Resolutions (long but civil) Given my return to a more active role in the MML, I do feel it somewhat needed to explain some of the accusations made against me. So I finally had to read that last mail. Digging through it, I listed the main greivances and decided to offer some comments and resolutions. I am not in the MA any more so I have no influence on their implementation. The Torpin- for all of its criticsm, the truth about The Torpin is that any fears are unwarranted and premature. The Torpin has had very little written about it. There are no stats, no deckplans, no given arsenals. I know, because The Torpin is my creation and I have not submitted the finished deckplans and stats. It has been under construction for two MA editions (and probably a third). My Torpin was planned to act as an exploration vessel for the sunken continent. Nayce Submersible Fleet- like the Torpin, details are limited. No numbers were given. The only offered info were deckplans and descriptions. I don't know the status of the fleet for this year. As of last MA, the fleet was still in the developmental stage. Nace's submersible facilities are heavily strained finishing the Torpin. My idea was to wait until The Torpin was finished before starting production of the new submersibles. Torenal Settlement- the new undersea city is no city, or even a town. Torenal was set as part of Nace's attempt to consolidate its islands and maintain some control of its sealanes. Also playing in, is the adventure potential of campaigning underwater. Torenals small frontier personna was set as this base of operations for PCs. There's an illustration for the Torenal domes in one of the MAs. Look the events section...AC 1016 "Torenal Plans Finalized" (IIRC). The image will have to be enlarged to see the details. But those are the same plans I have for the finished design. Note that most of the settlement is comprised of bunkers dug into the seafloor. The domes act as docking points and are used to lock the series of connecting passages between the domes. Operation Hydra- theoretical scenario staging a Thyatian invasion of Minrothad (and subsequently Ierendi). Created after a 1994 MML debate about Thyatis not being able to conquer the MG. Invasion was actually played out by real people. I commanded the Thyatian forces. A wargaming friend played the MG forces. Battles were judged by using an application I scripted using Visual Basics that essentially automated the Warmachine System. The battles were mostly fought out well before the first postings of the invasion were made. The storylines going along with the battles were penned. My friend actually suggested the Nace advances on IoD while Thyatis had its resources on the SoD. Similar cries for intervention came from the MML, though these were to come from Karameikos. They were included in OpHydra well before James showed up. That portion of the invasion had not been posted. I don't know what else I can say to prove that point. I know when they were added. I have the original files still on my old Win 3.11 machine. OpHydra is a stand alone project. Adaptaion into the MA or even anyone's individual campaign would require extensive alteration of details to initiate it. Ex. The Empress would have to die in childbirth. Spy network would have to be established in MG for intelligence gathering for invasion. Ironically, we also played out a seperate Thy invasion of Nace lands (circa AC 1013). That was quite interesting as well...especially since I was dubbed as being too pro-Thyatian. Randel/Veroth- small traditionalist kingdom in Nace. Introduced to counter the liberal (overly nice) stance that Nace took. They were to be strong enough to be able to hold their own within Nace. They are kept in balance by an inability to dominate Nace or even the Belly subcontinent by force. As far as politics go, they have already alienated Notrion by seizing lands for their own kingdom. Their arrogant and traditionalist attitude has alienated them from the majority of the Nace kingdoms. Veroth's future is not good. The soldiers are getting old, having been fighting for years. The kingdom has no set economy. The Thyatian slaves that built what little they have are gone, repatriated as colonists or something. The entire population cannot be considered an army anymore. Emerond in Nace- I still have no idea where that came from. My stance on seperating DV from Brun and Alphatia is pretty solid and longstanding. Even based upon the Spheres of Influence, that portion of DV is within the Thyatian Sphere. Geoff, could you elaborate on this some? I have no idea where this comes from. This accusation came at me from out of the blue and I am actually quite curious as to what caused it. Geoff knows of my extensive work on DV, most set for later inclusion in the MA. You'll find scant references to any Alphatians in any of those works. I had left the MA before any of my kingdoms and peoples were formally addressed in the MA. Given matters, they never will be. The Alphatian Conspiracy- There is no conspiracy. When the MA first started from its humble origins, Alphatian and Thyatian works were minimal at best. Herve stepped in to fill the Alpher void, setting up alot of the foundation work of Nace. Alot of that work was based on points introduced in the PWAs. Herve will verify that I make no excuses for my dislike of the more liberal Nace. I prefer my Alphatia to be pre-Wrath with all of their political and socal quirks. IMO pre-Wrath Alphatia was a boon for adventure, the chaotic national character and exotic nature allowed for more freedom in adventure design. Most of my MA Alpher works were more traditionalist. I was brought into the MA first as a reader and reviewer for the Events Section for AC1015. Later, Herve asked me to join him in the Alpher Teams as a contributor. I could have easily gone to the Thyatis Team. Truthfully, I don't think thta there was a Thyatis Team until recently. I never crossed over to both teams as I felt it detrimental to write for both teams, like trying to play chess against oneself. You will favor one over the other, even if it is not intended. Since I had a one year jump on my ALpher works, the favoritism was with the Alpher Teams. The original MA was remarkably small and simple. It was a very informal project led by a handful of people. The following years have seen the MA grow and along with it the various teams. My duties within the MA expanded as well. With the AC 1017 MA, the Alphatian Teams came under heavy scrutiny from the Thyatian Team. Nace events were monitored and the politics of the MA came heavily into play. Access to Thyatian events was not given easily. The Alpher Teams had to oblige Thyatian Team objections, while being left out of Thyatian matters. That was fine IMO as I felt a seperation should exist between these rival teams. The few suggestions I made were rebuked with a littany of conspiracy accusations. The effort was a waste. I began withdrawing from various MA Teams for 1017. I could not work with James, so I chose to avoid him if possible. I simplified my workload and concentrated on my duties. The final insult was dealt when James was unceremoneously allowed into the HW Team. I was the HW Team Editor and should have been consulted on the matter. James and I had a series of heated arguments brewing and I had withdrawn from certain MA Teams. Surely the idea of placing him in one of my remaining teams should have been thought out more. I held my tongue, not wishing to lose another Team. Within days, James unleashed a lengthy critical report on the AFC Events and Atlas Entries. He then offered his own versions...rather quickly to be so candid. My comments on his offerings were rebuked with the typical accusations. As HW Editor I used my position to reinforce the stance that the HW Team had decided upon. It was late in the development stages and there was no need to backpeddle on months of Team development. James then went over my head to Herve and Geoff. That was when I decided to quit the MA. Without word I resigned from the teams, unsubscribing from the MA mailing list. Herve contacted me and I voiced my grievances. In the end, I agreed to turn over my files. It was within weeks of the MA deadlines. The least I could do was to finish that year out. However, I would not sign back on for AC 1018. The MA had lost its appeal. Conspiracies? Yeah we Alpher fans always get our way. Bettellyn/Randel War- I am unsure what is being talked about here. My Randel Gaz has the two embroiled in a rivalry based off a minute reference to the two raiding each other in DotE. Jeff Daly did the Bettellyn Gaz and the rivalry was discussed by us two and implemented. The Randel Gaz has been due for a major rewrite so it loses credibility, even with me. There was a revival of this in the MA. However, it never really culminated into all out war. It saw a few Bettellyn raids on Randel and showed just how weak the Randel had become under Junna's rule. Junna was later ousted by adventurer types and replaced by an aunt serving as a figurehead for a nonspellcasting family member. My focus on War on the AFC was between Arogansa and Eadrin. Remember that AFC was to see alot of inner kingdom fighting, bordering upon civil war. Thyatian C-War- it was a civil war...pure and simple. It was fought on Thyatian soil, disrupting the domestic situation. Civil war rarely sees expansion. Thyatis City had to be resupplied by sea while the Twaeler War was under way. Likewise, none of Thyatis's hostile neighbors took any serious actions while the Empire was busy with its own troubles. IIRC the Ylari invaded but were quickly massacred by an unprecedented mage contingent from Sclaras (sp?). Minrothad was handed to Thyatis without a whimper from the rest of the world. The motive and means that Thyatis used to step in did not get resolved. IMO it was very convenient. I guess there is no Minrothad Team. Anyway, I would have held off on the C-War until Thyatis had stabilized and resolved the Twaeler War. However, the C-War was required for the Thyatis Team's reorganization of Thyatis. Yes dear readers, the C-War was a plot tool engineered to benefit Thyatis. Twaeler War- I did not initiate this war and did not see a need for it. At one time I was asked for input on that war and offered it. I offered suggestions to get Thyatis out of it easily, but was rebuked. I was rebuked even on the matter of the Thyatian "firewater". Firewater is essentially Greek Fire. My stance was that greek fire was already known and therefore there was no need to invent it. A minor detail, but a detail that was vehemently opposed along with most of my suggestions. Regretfully, by just using common greek fire, the substance could have seen wider use among the Thyatian forces. Believe it or not, I have a fairly good reputation among the wargaming community. My suggestions on war and tactics were ignored and criticised. My other suggestions for the T-War included the means for Thyatis to settle that conflict. Those too were rebuked. I believe that the Thyatis Team actually liked the T-War because it gave them their excuse to develope weapons and submersibles. And since the Thyatis Team was writing the events for the T-War, they could control its progression. Sunken Alphatia- I do support Alphatian exploration of their sunken continent. Adventuring underwater is fascinating IMO. Prewar maps offer ample basis for adventure materials to be based upon and followed up upon. The Alpher continent is slap in the middle of Nace and therefore within Nace borders. The sunken continent is also the Alpher homeland, presumedly housing the dead lost during the sinking making it hallowed ground of sorts. If anyone is going to be exploiting the ruins it should be the Alphers correct. Likewise, Nace shouldn't be letting foreign salvage crews come and go as they please. That is foolish, both militarily, socially, and economically. Another beef I have with the Thyatis Teams salvage ventures was the "lucrative" Spider Silk monopoly they snared by recovering samples from the depths. Skyships from Aeria, disease control from the ruins of the Alpher CDC (mummy rot plague from PWA), and Spider Silk monopolies from the continent. What would be the next gain Thyatis got by gnawing at the Alphatian corpse? IMO there was nothing uncalled for by Nace seeking to maintain control of its untapped resources on the sunken continent. Economics- budget requirements were a constant problem to be worked with by the Alpher Teams. Alot of ideas were shot down due to the cost. There are also events that use the Nace economic situation to expalin shortages. Alot of work was done shuffling the ideas of funding around to open up new projects. The Torpin is still under construction due to funding problems. Nace invested in Torenal to try to benefit from the spoils of the Alpher continent. A costly surface fleet (gold and manpower) was turned down in favor of a smaller submersible fleet. The armed forces were reorganized into a defensive arrangement, set to depend heavily upon militia type forces. Bellissaria was broken up to make new kingdoms for more tax revenue. Rebuilding projects for war damage was cut. Gaity was ignored as Nace lacked the resources to deal with the Thyatian barons residing there. Nace has had some reverses on Easterhold and will probably see a withdrawal to the coastal settlements as they cannot afford to hold or retake inland areas. Randel Heroes- that event had alot of twists and turns as it developed. Originally the Randel vessels were to be nowhere near the IoD. The spontaneous uprising was heavily discussed to represent Alph/Thy tensions on the IoD, especially in the Alpher enclave of Deirdren. The local leader was quite repressive to the locals, Deirdren being a veritable police state. That event had several fallouts that benefited the Thyatis Team. 1) it supported what was to become the Heldun Treaty. 2) it accentuated specific corruption on the IoD which led to the arrivial of Vanna-pol-whats-his-namus. His reports led to some of those reforms that the Thyatis Team so dearly wanted to implement. And the uprising was supposed to be the basis for Dierdren being seperated from Dunadale instead of trying to hold and occupy it. That clause being omitted from the final Treaty. Who wrote the Heldun Treaty? I forget. Thy Colonies in Nace- I was for Nace turning its attentions inward, rebuilding itself. Part of this required establishing clear borders. Having a Thyatian community within Nace lands undermines that edict. Likewise, these are the Alphatians who just lost the home continent in a war with the Thyatians. Nace or some enterprising mages would probably deal with this themselves. Also, I was told in a private mail that James had plans to use these Thyatian holdings in Nace Lands as the foundation for a Thyatian trade empire. He needed an untapped market for Thyatis's soon to develop industries. Nace provided that. Darokin was not active there and MG would soon be under Thyatian control. Vendettas & Underlings- Saved this one for last. I did not appreciate the unnamed person that sent that mail to James. Since it was sent under the guise of being hostile and targeted against him, it set the hostile tone of this conflict. Being text, the intent is limited to first impressions. The first impression was set by the "underling". The sad truth is that there was no targeted hostility, implied or otherwise. This whole soap opera has been revived for nothing. There was no need to take five sentences that were deamed derogatory and turn them into these long arguments, bringing back to surface matters years old. As mentioned, if I was intent upon attacking James, I would have done so openly and directly. However, I have no reason to and since he is supposedly unsubscribed from the MML it would be falling upon deaf ears. This unnamed person should have asked for a clarification, either publically on the MML or in private mail. Instead, they jumped to assumptions and forwarded the mail instigating this mess. Besides, it's been over a year since we have clashed. If I had a vendetta I would not have waited all this time. That original mail was made in response to a question posed about The Torpin. I answered and offered some additinal background information. Most of the info was redundant as the information is also given in the MA1017 Misc Section. If need be I can clarify line per line just what I meant in that initial mail. If one looks at my mails prior to that one, you will note the humorous candor shown there. Ex. I joked with Herve about turning the Torpin into a bordello and he joked back. I also joked at myself. Mainly I am interested in seeing the new events and what has happened to my plots. Another mail paid James a compliment, concerning mass combat modifiers for elves fighting among their own forests, other forests, and desert environments. The adverse reaction came as quite a surprise. I suspect those mails were not forwarded. If it was anyone else, I would be asking for an appology. In truth, we have both been victims of pre-school "he said, she said" type games. No matter what I say, opinions are set. There has been too much bad blood in the past to resolve this normally. However, I have to wonder if past disagreements might not have been instigated as well. Anyway, it is something to think about. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:22:00 -0500 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Issues and Resolutions (long but civil) On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Alex Benson wrote: Now it's time for a happy-fun 'I have too much work to think about but I'll post to the list because it's gotten to serious lately' post. > am actually quite curious as to what caused it. Geoff knows of my extensive > work on DV, most set for later inclusion in the MA. Ahh.. Davania.. how I miss you.. I miss your mountains, and your mists.. the yearly visits from Serraine loaded down with fruits from Brun, and the clank and steam of the gnomish greeting machines which invariably explode into a fireworks display of sparks and shrapnel.. The rumbling of earthshakers and the whirring and banging of eternal war on the marches of the deep south.. Davania, free from the pressures of Brun, free from the type of minutae that plague the old world. I need to write for you again. She calls.. I must obey. --- On a more operational note: Has anyone else had a major problem with Yahoo Groups recently? I am on the Mystara 3e group and the DV group, but I haven't received ANY mail from either of them for the past 5 months, even though my mail settings are set to receive mail directly. Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:40:12 +0100 From: Knud Gentz Subject: specialty priests discussion Hi all, I apologize for the long delay in continuing this discussion. Note: An excel spreadsheet containing an updated list of recommencations can be downloaded at http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs339 >> >> Alphatia All animal Charm Creation divination Guardian Healing >Necromantic >> >I'd limit the choice of the wizard school to some extent (barring >> >necromancy, invocation and conjuration, probably). >> >> I don't think this necessary. These schools can be used benevolently and >> Alphatia will see to it, that they are. The price for this is the very >> limited combat ability and no turning. > > >Ok. What about giving them two schools, but having them learn spells >(only the wizardly spells) as wizards? You mean from scrolls or a wizardly tutor? or only from scrolls? the learned spells would then be cast as if they were priest spells, ie as part of the standard spell allowing or would you have them be in addition to those? Interesting idea, but might work out. >> >> Asterius >> I must admit to not knowing what TU is, but I like the bardic armor limit > >Sorry! It meant Turn Undead. Hmm, should have been able to puzzle that one out :-) >> >> Atzanteotl All Astral Charm Combat Elemental (Earth) Healing Necromantic >> >> immune to alignment detection, only use piercing or inca weapons, command >> >> undead, cause light wounds 3/d, detect good at will, cast >enchantment/charm >> >> spells as if they were cleric spells >> > >> >Quite powerful, IMO. Some armor limits could be in order. >> >> Hmm, I thought him to be not that powerful compared to other hierarchs. > >Well, consider that they have a permanently active power and one at will >(in addition to the standard command undead), can cast spells from a >powerful wizardly school, and have a good, if limited, selection of >clerical spells. Also, the weapon is not that limited, as they can use a >full class of weapons (percing), plus all inca weapon (which would >probably include some bladed and blunt weapons). I actually counted the weapon allowance as a bonus. And they do have a number of powers at hand but these have IMHO no great influence on adventuring and I measure the powers ob their usefulness for adventurers since pure npc clerics can be as powerful as I like them to be :-) I admit though that the enchantment school might be worth more, than I gave credit for. (For actual numbers see the excel spreadsheet available for download above). >> >> Ixion All animal Creation Divination Elemental (Fire) Healing necromantic >> >> Plant Protection Sun >> >> cast wizard elemental fire spells as if they were cleric spells, produce >> >> flame 2/d, turn undead at +1 >> > >> >Sounds quite powerful. Perhaps animal and/or plant should be removed. >> >> My original design included major necromancy while removing both. but since >> he is father of the centaur race and 'particularly venerated by the forest >> races' (as stated in the Immortals of the known world) I found them both to >> be quite necessary. any other idea? perhaps banning reversed spells from >> healing and necromantic might be called for? > > >Probably, as I said in a previous post, Ixion should have several >classes of specialty priests (Oltec/Azcan, Centaur, Enduk/Nimmurian, >Narvaezan/Thyatian, Goblinoid, Ethengaran, and Sindhi in three different >flavours). > > >When I wrote my comment, I was thinking of the Narvaezan clergy, which >would have major necromancy and healing (both standard and reverse), but >not animal/plant. Of course things would be different for other races. > > >I'd seriously consider doing a least three versions >(Oltec/Azcan+Goblinoid+Ethengaran, Narvaezan/Thyatian, >Enduk/Nimmurian+Centaur), leaving Sindhi clergy to be non-specialists or >to fit in one of the other three. > So, for a Thyatian priest it would be: All Creation Divination Fire Healing Necromantic Protection Sun cast el. fire wiz. spells as cleric, produce fire 2/d, turn undead +1 while for Enduk he would grant: All animal creation Divination Fire Healing Plant Protection Sun (note the downgrade to minor creation) same powers as for thytian version Any proposals for the third version? >> >> Karaash All Combat divination Healing Necromantic protection >> >> may use crossbows, str and con bonus as fighter, d10 hit points per level >> > >> >May also use swords. >> >> I find him to be extremely powerful for an initiate already, but since he >> is _the_ immortal for orcs and other humanoids (at least from those listed >> here) I agree. > > >Well, you could remove use crossbow, and add a compulsory wepon >proficiency slot to be spent in the sword, or limit the hit points (no >warrior con bonus, or d8 hp per die). no crossbows and no warrior con bonus. >> >> Koryis All Charm Divination Guardian Healing Necromantic protection > >Yes, I got it from an article in Dragon, which was among the free >backissues. It has other interesting powers, so I'll reread it and >suggest something for other Immortals as well. I'd appreciate that :-) >> >> Masauwu All Charm Creation Divination Healing Necromantic summoning >> >> persuasion bonus proficiency, cast enchanment/charm spells as if they >were >> >> priest spells, undetectable alignment, fast talk bonus proficiency >> > >> >I'd remove the Healing sphere >> >> I prefer limiting it to reversed spells, otherwise he should get a little >> extra, since he is already a 'underachiever' , although he grants >> enchantment/charm wizard spells > > >Yes, but consider that he is not an aggressive immortal. The priests >could get command undead as a compensation, instead. I would like to grant chaos. command undead would be nice too, but for an immortal you describe as not aggressive, it'd seem out of place. >> >> Noumena All Astral combat Divination Elemental healing Sun >> >> detect hidden doors as elf, permanent true seeing, cast wizard divination >> >> spells as if they were priest spells >> > >> >Permanent True Seeing seems rather powerful. Note that Noumena would be >> >perfect for Thought sphere. >> >> It is, but he has quite a limited selection of spells despite access to >> wizard enchantment spells to make up for it. Add Thought. > > >If you want to widen the spell selection, you could add also Numbers >(though this is really one of the more "experimental" spheres). I find this sphere strange, somewhat hard to bring into play and most of the person-affecting spells have no saving throw. I would rather ignore it. I like the divine recognition, though. Perhaps add true seeing 1/(5 levels*d) (in this case meaning 1 at 5-9, 2 at 10-14 ...) >> >> Orcus All Combat Elemental Healing (rev) Necromantic (rev) >> >> -2 to armor class vs demi-humans, cast invocation spells as if they were >> >> priest spells, control undead, str bonus as fighters >> > >> >The Invocation school is very powerful, and the Elemental sphere is the >> >largest of the priest spheres. I'd remove the second (perhaps replacing >> >it with minor access to the summoning sphere). >> >Also, the priest might become a lycanthrope (this could be a power or >> >not). >> >> The combination is quite powerful and its also devastating, which is the >> main purpose. From the Immortals of the known world: >> 'Orcus lives to destroy - people, places or things. He has no other >> interests beyond mass destruction.' >> Meaning I would first take the str bonus and/or the AC bonus, perhaps the >> healing and necromantic access (even though rev only). > > >Yes, but the Elemental sphere doesn't seem too appropriate (that's why I >would take it rather than the Invocation sphere), as it has little to do >with destruction. OTOH, the reversed spheres are very appropriate, so >I'd leave them there. Also, Orcus doesn't seem to have a special >interest in the elements. > > >Note that from other sources, we know that Orcus is interested in >lycanthropes, especially Devil Swine. A "Command Lycanthrope" power >could be in order... Minor summoning yields nothing, so it would have to be major summoning instead of elemental. control lycanthropes is quite good, the option of becoming a devil swine, too. any stats for such a creature? > > >> >> Petra All charm Combat Divination Guardian Healing Necromantic >> Protection sun >> >> +1 strength, leadership bonus proficiency >> > >> >I'd find the +1 strenght bonus not especially fitting. I'd have >> >something like a -1 bonus to AC, or a protection from evil 3/day. >> >> To me the AC bonus seems quite less powerful than the str bonus. perhaps >> armor class bonus _and_ protection f. evil? or a wisdom bonus instead str? > > >I'd go for AC bonus and protection f. evil, though I don't think an AC >bonus would be less useful than a str bonus: avg str for the priest of >Petra could be 11, perhaps 12 or even 13 if the requirements are steep, >and a +1 would give no bonus at all. To benefit from the bonus, you >would need at least a str score of 15, which is already quite uncommon. That would depend on the campaign being played. But most priests won't benefit that much, I agree. > > >> >> Pflarr All Combat Creation Divination elemental Guardian Healing >> >> Necromantic Protection >> >> hear noise as thief >> > >> >Use thief weapon, limited to thief armor. Also may cast some wizard >> >spells. Remove Combat and minor access to Elemental instead. >> >> as per his description he was something of a guardian, thus I'd rather >> limit to bardic armor and not remove combat. >> how about access to abjurations instead minor elemental? > > >Yes, it would be good. However, note that while he was a guardian as a >mortal, as an Immortal he is rather a protector of art and craftmanship. >He protects through the creation of defensive structures rather than by >combat. > > >I'd probably give a small selection of appropriate Alteration spells as >well. I'd recommend dancing lights, wizard lock, magic mouth and explosive runes. nothing above 3rd level. >> >> Rafiel All Astral Charm Creation Divination elemental guardian Healing >> >> Necromantic Protection >> >> save at +1 vs spells and rod/staff/wand, engineering bonus proficiency >> > >> >These are in the official conversion document for the SE: >> >"Shamans have access to a broad base of spells, including the >> >following spheres: All, Charm, Divination, Elemental, Healing, >> >Necromantic, and Protection. " >> >> Rafiels clerics are not necessarily shamans, IMO. > > >Yes, but at the time, he has few (or no) priests beyond the Shadow Elves >(whose priests are only Shamans). Agreed, though I would like to retain the special powers. >> >> Terra All Animal combat Creation Elemental guardian Healing Necromantic >> >> Plant Protection sun Weather >> >> speak with animals at will, no turning >> > >> >Elemental: Earth only. Also spells form the wizardly school of Elemental >> >Earth. >> >> Terra is mother earth, I think she should retain full access to elemental. > > >Yes, but she is mostly an elemental power, not a druidic one. That's why >I think their powers revolve more on the specific element than on the >generic elemental sphere. Another choice would be to remove the opposing >sphere, and keep the other two as minor access. She is, on the other hand her portfolio includes creation which, historically uses all four elements. Perhaps major earth and minor the others? >> >> Valerias All Astral Charm combat Creation Divination elemental Guardian >> >> Healing Necromantic Protection Sun >> >> locate 1/d, remove fear 1/d, ventriloquism 1/d >> > >> >Charm spells as if the priest was one level higher. Minor access to >> >Elemental. +1 Charisma. >> >> She has minor elemental, I like the rest, although that makes her quite >> powerful. > > >Well, ok you could remove some spheres (I think she's from the Sphere of >Energy, so earth could be removed). Or just remove all the elemental, >and give full access to Combat (she's linked with weaponry in Thyatis, >IIRC) I prefer removing only minor earth and not granting full combat. Bye Knud ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:02:45 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Issues and Resolutions (long but civil) [snip here and there] <> My sentiments exactly. The Divergans wait, their legions poised to defend their borders against invaders from either side. The Lillend sit to the east, gnawing at the bit at the Divergans and seeking their ancient enemies placed so far to the west. The Kaelmad sit to the west, watching the Duivergans and the Noids around them. War is brewing but and where. The Ay'Taar sit among their tree homes waiting for the winds to rise and lift their flighted forces to regain the homeland. The Peghart Gnomes sit amid their percieved squaller, contemplating their future goals and looking longly towards the paradise to the north beyond the wastes. The Hornidd Clans sit amid their strongholds, enviously covetting their neighbors' holding seeking power and glory. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:48:54 +0100 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: specialty priests discussion Knud Gentz wrote: > > > > Alphatia > > >Ok. What about giving them two schools, but having them learn spells > >(only the wizardly spells) as wizards? > > You mean from scrolls or a wizardly tutor? or only from scrolls? the > learned spells would then be cast as if they were priest spells, ie as part > of the standard spell allowing or would you have them be in addition to > those? Interesting idea, but might work out. I mean not giving all spells as known (as priest spells are), but having the priest learn each spell as a wizard would (from tutoring, research, and spellbooks). > >> >> Atzanteotl All Astral Charm Combat Elemental (Earth) Healing > Necromantic > >> >> immune to alignment detection, only use piercing or inca weapons, > command > >> >> undead, cause light wounds 3/d, detect good at will, cast > >enchantment/charm > >> >> spells as if they were cleric spells > >> > > >> >Quite powerful, IMO. Some armor limits could be in order. > >> > >> Hmm, I thought him to be not that powerful compared to other hierarchs. > > > >Well, consider that they have a permanently active power and one at will > >(in addition to the standard command undead), can cast spells from a > >powerful wizardly school, and have a good, if limited, selection of > >clerical spells. Also, the weapon is not that limited, as they can use a > >full class of weapons (percing), plus all inca weapon (which would > >probably include some bladed and blunt weapons). > > I actually counted the weapon allowance as a bonus. And they do have a > number of powers at hand but these have IMHO no great influence on > adventuring and I measure the powers ob their usefulness for adventurers > since pure npc clerics can be as powerful as I like them to be :-) That is certainly good, but I don't think that undetectable alignment and detect good are useless in adventuring, especially when one is an evil priest. > I admit > though that the enchantment school might be worth more, than I gave credit > for. (For actual numbers see the excel spreadsheet available for download > above). I'll have a look at it tomorrow. > >> >> Ixion All animal Creation Divination Elemental (Fire) Healing > necromantic > >> >> Plant Protection Sun > >> >> cast wizard elemental fire spells as if they were cleric spells, > produce > >> >> flame 2/d, turn undead at +1 > > So, for a Thyatian priest it would be: All Creation Divination Fire Healing > Necromantic Protection Sun > cast el. fire wiz. spells as cleric, produce fire 2/d, turn undead +1 > > while for Enduk he would grant: All animal creation Divination Fire Healing > Plant Protection Sun (note the downgrade to minor creation) > same powers as for thytian version > > Any proposals for the third version? It could be something like: All Animal creation Divination Fire Healing Plant Protection Sun, same powers as the others, limited armor (nonmetallic), tribal weaponry (like Atzanteotl, more or less). Also, perhaps the Sun Priest from Maztica could be adapted. > >> >> Karaash All Combat divination Healing Necromantic protection > >> >> may use crossbows, str and con bonus as fighter, d10 hit points per > level > >> > > >> >May also use swords. > > no crossbows and no warrior con bonus. This looks very good. > >> >> Masauwu All Charm Creation Divination Healing Necromantic summoning > >> >> persuasion bonus proficiency, cast enchanment/charm spells as if they > >were > >> >> priest spells, undetectable alignment, fast talk bonus proficiency > >> > > >> >I'd remove the Healing sphere > >> > >> I prefer limiting it to reversed spells, otherwise he should get a little > >> extra, since he is already a 'underachiever' , although he grants > >> enchantment/charm wizard spells > > I would like to grant chaos. command undead would be nice too, but for an > immortal you describe as not aggressive, it'd seem out of place. Chaos seems a good choice, indeed. > >> >> Noumena All Astral combat Divination Elemental healing Sun > >> >> detect hidden doors as elf, permanent true seeing, cast wizard > divination > >> >> spells as if they were priest spells > >> > > >> >Permanent True Seeing seems rather powerful. Note that Noumena would be > >> >perfect for Thought sphere. > >> > >> It is, but he has quite a limited selection of spells despite access to > >> wizard enchantment spells to make up for it. Add Thought. > > > > > >If you want to widen the spell selection, you could add also Numbers > >(though this is really one of the more "experimental" spheres). > > I find this sphere strange, somewhat hard to bring into play and most of > the person-affecting spells have no saving throw. I would rather ignore it. > I like the divine recognition, though. Perhaps add true seeing 1/(5 > levels*d) (in this case meaning 1 at 5-9, 2 at 10-14 ...) Yes, powers limited in numbers of uses are good. I'd give a smoother progression, though (something like 1*levels per week). Note that Divine Recognition has a cost of 15 CPs in Player's Option rules, more than Turn Undead, for example. > >> >> Orcus All Combat Elemental Healing (rev) Necromantic (rev) > >> >> -2 to armor class vs demi-humans, cast invocation spells as if they > > Minor summoning yields nothing, so it would have to be major summoning > instead of elemental. control lycanthropes is quite good, the option of > becoming a devil swine, too. any stats for such a creature? I'll dig them out when I'll get some spare time, they should be in the Mystara MCA. > >> >> Petra All charm Combat Divination Guardian Healing Necromantic > >> Protection sun > >> >> +1 strength, leadership bonus proficiency > > >I'd go for AC bonus and protection f. evil, though I don't think an AC > >bonus would be less useful than a str bonus: avg str for the priest of > >Petra could be 11, perhaps 12 or even 13 if the requirements are steep, > >and a +1 would give no bonus at all. To benefit from the bonus, you > >would need at least a str score of 15, which is already quite uncommon. > > That would depend on the campaign being played. But most priests won't > benefit that much, I agree. Yes, it strongly depends on the campaign style: high powered campaigns could see characters with higher average scores, while rolling 3d6 six times won't yield many strong priests. > >> >> Pflarr All Combat Creation Divination elemental Guardian Healing > >> >> Necromantic Protection > >> >> hear noise as thief > > >I'd probably give a small selection of appropriate Alteration spells as > >well. > > I'd recommend dancing lights, wizard lock, magic mouth and explosive runes. > nothing above 3rd level. Also "Mending" could be a good choice. > >> >> Rafiel All Astral Charm Creation Divination elemental guardian Healing > >> >> Necromantic Protection > >> >> save at +1 vs spells and rod/staff/wand, engineering bonus proficiency > > >> Rafiels clerics are not necessarily shamans, IMO. > > > >Yes, but at the time, he has few (or no) priests beyond the Shadow Elves > >(whose priests are only Shamans). > > Agreed, though I would like to retain the special powers. Then perhaps the engineering proficiency could be required instead of bonus. > >> >> Terra All Animal combat Creation Elemental guardian Healing Necromantic > >> >> Plant Protection sun Weather > >> >> speak with animals at will, no turning > > >Yes, but she is mostly an elemental power, not a druidic one. That's why > >I think their powers revolve more on the specific element than on the > >generic elemental sphere. Another choice would be to remove the opposing > >sphere, and keep the other two as minor access. > > She is, on the other hand her portfolio includes creation which, > historically uses all four elements. Perhaps major earth and minor the others? Ok. > >> >> Valerias All Astral Charm combat Creation Divination elemental Guardian > >> >> Healing Necromantic Protection Sun > >> >> locate 1/d, remove fear 1/d, ventriloquism 1/d > >> > > >> >Charm spells as if the priest was one level higher. Minor access to > >> >Elemental. +1 Charisma. > >> > >> She has minor elemental, I like the rest, although that makes her quite > >> powerful. > > > >Well, ok you could remove some spheres (I think she's from the Sphere of > >Energy, so earth could be removed). Or just remove all the elemental, > >and give full access to Combat (she's linked with weaponry in Thyatis, > >IIRC) > > I prefer removing only minor earth and not granting full combat. Ok. Bye, -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 00:21:17 +0100 From: Knud Gentz Subject: Re: specialty priests discussion Hi > Note: An excel spreadsheet containing an updated list of recommencations > can be downloaded at > http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs339 I was not able to upload the updated document until now. Anybody who downloaded the sheet between my postings will have an old version. Sorry Knud ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 24 Feb 2002 to 25 Feb 2002 (#2002-56) ***************************************************************