Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 26 Feb 2002 to 27 Feb 2002 (#2002-58) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 28/02/2002, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 24 messages totalling 857 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. M-Vampire Magic System (7) 2. D&D Mystara Gazetteers (4) 3. Elven Empire? (3) 4. Krazadorian Military Technology (1000 AC) (2) 5. Physical Map of Davania? (8) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:18:30 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: M-Vampire Magic System <> I have looked over your vamp materials and found them helpful. In fact I wan= t=20 there to be some crossover to denote some common grounds between the two=20 vampire types and emphasize the differences since the split. In some ways, a= =20 similar relationship can be seen between lupins and werewolves. Anyway, the=20 AC based magic will be toned down as well. As it is in AC, a DM is going to=20 be heavily burdened keeping track of things. I might craft up an applet to=20 help the DM.=20 <> Plug away. Your vampire materials are good and I plan on giving themn anothe= r=20 read over before proceeding. I gotta give credit when credit is due.=20 Anyway, PCs versions of character classes/races is something I can definitel= y=20 agree with. All my DV races are set to be playable as PCs. For the M-Vamps=20 PCs would mainly see use as the low level initiates. At the higher ages and=20 levels, these creatures are pretty powerful. Likewise, manipulation and=20 plotting for the masquerade is key. What I am working with for the vamps is=20= a=20 mixture of skills gained through a combination of age and xp advancement.=20 <>=20 Input is appreciated. I am doing a similar thing with a M-Planescape type=20 campaign and have been bugging Giampaolo Agosta for info. BTW thanks again=20 Giampaolo for tolerating my questions and crazy ideas. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:59:21 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: D&D Mystara Gazetteers I am just starting to get my AD&D 2E: Mystara campaign off the ground, and I in the process of acquiring new Mystara material for my game (mostly on Ebay). I could use some help in increasing my (small) collection so any help is appreciated. So far I have of the Gazetteers series: GAZ 1 The Grand Duchy of Karameikos (No map the Horror!)) GAZ 2 The Emirates of Ylaruam GAZ 4 The Kingdom of Irendi GAZ 6 The Dwarves of Rockhome GAZ 10 The Orcs of Thar (No map the Horror!)) GAZ 13 The Shadow Elves (Download) Karameikos: Kingdom of Adventure Audio CD Campaign Setting Besides Ebay, where the GAZ average $25-$50 each, where else can I buy these OOP Gazetteers? Also, short of spending $200-$300 trying to buy all those Gazetteers, where can I get information on the nations covered in the Gazetteer books in the 1000 AC era? I have found some info on the various nations of the Known World, but the great majority of the information dates post WOTI. I am trying to find something like the highly useful nation overviews found at http://perso.wanadoo.fr/mystara/gazetteers/kw/kwindex.htm , but set in the 1000 AC era. Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks in advance, George ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 03:22:43 +1100 From: Alfred O'Meagher Subject: Re: D&D Mystara Gazetteers buy the box sets of the original game and the Dawn of the Emperors super-gazette set is a must, leaving aside all the list gibberish about what may or may not happen, the books in Dawn of the Emperors are packed with little details that are excellent for spinning adventures out of. Our own campaign which I run is past WotI etc. but I still refer back to the maps and entries in Dawn of the Emperors. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:40:09 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Re: M-Vampire Magic System -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Alex Benson Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 2:50 PM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] M-Vampire Magic System > More will be coming in the following days as I begin organizing things some > more. I would like to point out though that deception is key to the M-Vamps. > Campaign use has them operating in the background. Mankind is their feeding > stock, even among the more liberal Clans. If an comabt scenario evolves > between a Clan, Nest, or individual and a group of PCs the vampire will be a > formidable foe. However, he will not risk losing the deception of the > seperate vampire sects. I envision them using normal vampires as scapegoats > when necessary. Perhaps faking defeats to withdraw to safety. > Thoughts? Comments? Concerns? Suggestions? More then anything I think the concept of the "Masquerade" should be keep central. In this world with magic and non-human creatures, it should be more easy to maintain. I especially like the idea of having the "Elder" vampires use "normal" vampires as a distraction and target for all thoughts enterprising Vampire-slaying adventures that inevitably arrive when vampires are around. Helps to keep the busy and weed out the weak. :) George ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:07:41 +0000 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: D&D Mystara Gazetteers Actually the Poor Wizard's almanac contain less info but are a lot less cheaper. Also you can check the Web Almanac and info on dnd.starflung.com . You'll find lots of info. It's not the gazeteer, but short of buying them, that's the best you'll get. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:06:58 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Re: Elven Empire? -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of thibault sarlat Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 4:25 PM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Elven Empire? > the SCRO???? > what is that please? I learned of them from: ----------------------- Dragon Magazine Annual #1 (1996) [Page 44] Campaign Classics: the Scro (by Roger E. Moore) The Scro: A Spelljammer monster for groundling campaigns ----------------------- Basically Scro are space faring, fire arms using, intelligent, viscous, and evil Orcs bent on conquering all in their path. Nice bunch, eh? George ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:23:14 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Re: Elven Empire? -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Joe Kelly Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 3:51 PM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: [MYSTARA] Elven Empire? > IMC I have place the Scro on the Serpent Peninsula. How did the Scro get on you Mystara, and why are they there? Scouting, Hunting/Recovery, Alliance building, Shipyard/colony set up missions....? > But I have no clue where I would place an Elvish Empire, who are the > main antagonists of the Scro. Any suggestions? Can't help you there. I just know about the Known World nations, every thing else is unknown to me. As for the Elvish Empire, is it local/native or are they part of a Elven Navy (spell jamming elves)? If the latter, chose a place of important strategic or tactical value to the Elven Navy, and place your empire accordingly. George ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:51:22 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: M-Vampire Magic System <> An aspect that I am also depending upon is ignorance and discipline. Ignorance comes from the general population and their general ideas of what I vampire is. By breaking that idea of a vampire, a vampire can operate within a human society with more freedom. Likewise, physical differences between these proto-vampires differ from the entropic vampires. I imagine it is somewhat akin to how a nosferatu can decieve based on certain attributes they have as opposed to a vampire. Discipline comes as the proto-vampires are highly secretive and organized. It's hard to explain but the masquerade aspect is central to their survival. I was thinking of implementing a retribution factor for proto-vampires getting exposed. <> The vampires themselves are few in number. They have a variety of servant types that support their nest and power base. In VtM, these would be their ghouls. Each clan is composed of nests spread throughout a region. Each nest has a senior vampire, an assistant, and a handful of lower level vamps. Then there are the ghouls and a variety of servants. The masters of the Clans are set in remote or hidden strongholds where they oversee Clan edicts. Their word is law, each nest being directly under their control. I was thinking of a stressed council of clans to oversee proto-vampire concerns. These meeting would be irregular and full of political rivalries. Cooperation is solidified by the need for the masquerade and ancient lore and tradition. The proto-vamps have a superiority complex over most creatures....humans are food, elves are dessert. They have a hatred of the entropic vampires and werebeasts. They see lycanthropes as polluting "their" food chain. Recruiting new members is based upon close scrutiny and careful screening. Each Clan varies on its particular method of doing this. Some use their ghouls (reward), some adopt human wards and rear them as future recruits, others follow adventurer's careers. Segway.... One problem that I am having is in the magic system. In AC, spell level progression is advanced by "bumping" one's magic school skills, focus, and self. Spell skill also factors in to the target's ability to resist (ie. higher score is harder to resist). Level means little in terms of spellcasting. For example, I have a Lvl 37 Tank Archer who has Item Magic. She can cast lvl 4 spells. Conversely, I have a Lvl 38 UA 3 School Mage that can cast lvl 5 spells. Likewise I had a pure Lvl 24 4-School Mage that was casting lvl 5 spells. Now, I have two clear options. 1) set spell progression based upon level/age. 2) give spellcasting skill requirement per level. credits to raise this skill are awarded at level/age like a thief's skill scores. Option #1 seems the better of the two, following something along the lines as seen in the Creature Crucibles Series. However, I am open to suggestions and alternates. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:03:19 +0000 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: M-Vampire Magic System Just a suggestion, but maybe you should establish a strong reason for the Masquarade to happen. In White Wolf's game, it's because poeple would like kill all the supernatural Vamps and vamp hunters. In Mystara finding a Vampire would less likely stir so much fear and queeriness in the human population. They would be less likely to mount crusades for the goal of destroying these specific evil creatures when their are tons of evil creatures. They would see less as abobinations also. Maybe you could have someone like the "other" vampires want to root out these proto-vamps, the werewolves like in WW Vampire The Masquarade or Vamp Hunters force the Vamps to enforce the masquarade this much in Mystara. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:12:54 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Krazadorian Military Technology (1000 AC) -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Havard Faanes Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 10:28 AM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: [MYSTARA] Denvarf and the Dwarven Golems > Just a few ideas that came to me, last night...let me > know what you think! Like your idea of having dwarven golems, lets see how I can fit it into my game.... IMC the Krazador Dwarves (aka Rockhome Dwarves) began a military buildup and Weapons R&D program at the end of the Inhuman War (800-808 AC). The signing of the Dwarf-Elf Peace Treaty of 815 AC , and the opening of the Darokin Tunnel in 816 AC lead to an influx of new ideas, trade/commerce, military exchange /joint exercises programs, a new international foreign policy out look and technological exchanges. As an outgrowth of the Krazadorians military R&D efforts, several breakthroughs in military technology where achieved. Among the most notable: Bolter- A cheap ,light weight, disposable ,one-shot, three foot long wooden tube that contains a heavy cross bolt that is held in place by a tightly coiled spring which is released by the pull of a trigger. They are given to all dwarven warriors as a means of dealing with the various war mounts used by the humanoid races. A line of warriors with Bolters can take out a line of Calvary units (or their equivalents), drop their now useless Bolters and be ready for hand to hand combat in under 30 seconds. War Golems: Combining recent advancements in metallurgy, steam power, crafts tools and Rune magic, it became possible to create Iron and Stone Golems. These are used as shock troops against heavily entrenched/defended enemies and as a means of taking out any large Warbeast or war machine that is to large for the warriors to handle. Rune stones- A small stone that is enchanted by a Runesmity it is activated by a command word and activates upon contact with another object. Depending on the rune used is the effect they cause: they can explode, spread a flammable gel, create a loud noise and flash of light, release colored smoke, release a gas or create a bright light among many other things. They are available in warrior and war machine sizes. Steam Technology- The harnessing of steam as a source of energy lead to a series of technological developments which remain classified. It is rumored that Krazadorians are developing (or have developed) war machines that run on steam power. So can travel vast distances, others are rumored to take to the skies, and others yet believed to be unstoppable war machines. Black powder Technology: The development of the black powder was a mayor technological advancement that lead to a new class of weapons that can hit their targets at a longer range , with more damage, and at a faster rate then conventional crossbows and longbows. These new weapons are being developed for use by the individual warrior, for fortifications and for war machines. Not a bad start, wonder what else I can come up with... George ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:34:08 +0100 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: D&D Mystara Gazetteers Giorgio wrote: > > Besides Ebay, where the GAZ average $25-$50 each, where else can I buy these > OOP Gazetteers? You could get the ESDs (pdf-converted books) at the WotC online store ($5 each). Gazetteers for Ierendi and Karameikos are already available, IIRC. > Also, short of spending $200-$300 trying to buy all those Gazetteers, where > can I get information on the nations covered in the Gazetteer books in the > 1000 AC era? Not really. Apart from the Gazetteer series, most products are post-WotI. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:35:01 +0100 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: M-Vampire Magic System Alex Benson wrote: > > Input is appreciated. I am doing a similar thing with a M-Planescape type > campaign and have been bugging Giampaolo Agosta for info. BTW thanks again > Giampaolo for tolerating my questions and crazy ideas. You're welcome :) BTW, how far have you gone with your M-PS crossbreed? -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:21:09 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: M-Vampire Magic System <> Yes. The proto-vamps enforce the masquerade for several reasons. 1) covert control of food and power regions. 2) a magic rich environment is dangerous for them or any creatures that feed upon the living. 3) vampirism has a "bad reputation" thanks to the entropic vampires. 4) the proto-vamps seek to control humanity and some day rebuild a society that they dominate (pipe dream). More of this will come out and be explained in their formal history. The proto-vamps see the "golden age" as being during the Blackmoor Age. Then, they fed off a synthetic blood substitute and lived relatively normal lives among the humans. Other golden ages were seen in Nithia but undermined by the entropic Thanatos. Another was seen among the surface era Azca. That too was undermined by the Sphere of Entrophy. They wish to rebuild this someday. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:32:44 -0800 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Elven Empire? > IMC I have place the Scro on the Serpent Peninsula. How did the Scro get on you Mystara, and why are they there? Scouting, Hunting/Recovery, Alliance building, Shipyard/colony set up missions....? I wanted the Orcs to have some sort of benefit, in some of my campaigns. = So I chose the Orcs of the Serpent Peninsula to be the Scro. So PCs will = run into them, but not that often, since they are a long ways away from = the Known World. > But I have no clue where I would place an Elvish Empire, who are the > main antagonists of the Scro. Any suggestions? Can't help you there. I just know about the Known World nations, every = thing else is unknown to me. As for the Elvish Empire, is it local/native or are they part of a Elven Navy (spell jamming elves)? If the latter, chose a place of important strategic or tactical value to the Elven Navy, and place your empire accordingly. I'm thinking maybe a large empire in Davania. As the Spelljammer list has = said that the Elven Empire has over 2,000 ships! Also just to clarify, for = navies I am using the following: Ships of the Goblinoids and Ships of the Elves by Mongoose Publishing (D20 = system): Ships of the Goblinoids: A multitude of new ships, covering a huge range of goblinoid vessels. From = the barely floating Goblin War Raft, through to the deadly Hobgoblin Swift = Sea Cutter and Predator Fast Frigate, goblinoids have the potential to = dominate any ocean. Also included are the massive warships of the orcs, = such as the lethal Warhammer Battle Galley and the massive, awe-inspiring = Great Axe Battleship. A total of 16 new ships are shown, complete with = deckplans, alongside 'templates' allowing you to represent any vessel in = possession of the goblinoids.=20 Ships of the Elves:=20 Nearly 20 new vessels are featured, covering the entire vista of elvish = ingenuity in ship design. From the glorious and rarely seen Sea Haven to = the deadly fast Elemental Ram, few pirates are foolish enough to challenge = an elven fleet at sea, be it from the explorer, trader or warrior clans=20 They are seen only when they choose for they know many of the old trade = routes and currents not yet discovered by the younger races. Elven trading = ships are faster than most warships and, when confronted, will usually = just speed away under a great cloud of white canvas. The ships of the = explorers, including the awesome Vorncir (Corsair) will often trade if = given the option but if faced with aggression, will sail arrogantly away = with complete disdain of any threat from their 'attacker.'=20 George ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:34:20 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Krazadorian Military Technology (1000 AC) <> I did some gnomish fantasy engineering for my P-Gnomes of Davania. <> Howabout instead of disposable, just make them take alot of timeand effort to reload for the next shot (5+ rounds and skill check of some sort)? That way the weapons can be fired once in an engagement but later recovered and reused. I suggest this as the spring mechanism and trigger require time and resources to craft. It may be more efficient to be reusable, but limited to reloading until a pause in the fighting. <> What do these golems look like? It might be interesting that they are crude and featureless (practicality over beauty). Big and brawny looking, they would intimidate as well. <> Clerical powered? Sounds interesting, but I know little about Runesmithing. <> P-Gnomes used steam power for most of their warmachines. Coal boilers and smoke fit with their downtrodden and crude personna. Geoff, did I ever send you those deckplans for the P-Gnomes land galleys? Main armamnet were steam catapults. <> Eak!!! Personally I am not a big fan of blackpowder in Mystara as it leads to firearms. But hey, to each their own. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:41:06 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: M-Vampire Magic System < > Input is appreciated. I am doing a similar thing with a M-Planescape type > campaign and have been bugging Giampaolo Agosta for info. BTW thanks again > Giampaolo for tolerating my questions and crazy ideas. You're welcome :) BTW, how far have you gone with your M-PS crossbreed?>> It was coming along pretty well. However, my particular whimsy has initiated a rewrite. Basically I am making it alot more sinister than I originally had. I want to reinforce the dark and evil nature that the Planes can have. Somehow that had gotten lost in the character write ups. Even the noble PS NPCs have their dark traits. I am alternating writing for the M-PS and M-Vamp projects. Both have similar dark undertones. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:51:29 -0800 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Physical Map of Davania? Is there somewhere I can get a physical map of Davania? Or Llhomar?=20 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:58:02 +0100 From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Physical Map of Davania? what do you mean by physical? topographical? Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st Join me at:thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr clenarius@hotmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Kelly" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 9:51 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] Physical Map of Davania? Is there somewhere I can get a physical map of Davania? Or Llhomar? ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:33:03 +0000 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: Physical Map of Davania? > > what do you mean by physical? topographical? > Maybe he means a paper map from a boxed set. THe only one I know is the map of Mystara which all all the continents on the same 2 pages. It is found in the D&D rule cyclopedia. Im pretty sure their must be others tough. You should check Geoff Gander's site et the Davania Yahoo Group for maps as well as Thibeault`s site ! _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:01:17 -0800 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Physical Map of Davania? No, as in one I can have to own. As in, on paper. :) Joe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:03:00 -0800 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Physical Map of Davania? Already have and have emailed both about getting actual maps of Lhomarr = and Davannia. :) Joe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:05:24 +0000 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: Physical Map of Davania? > > Already have and have emailed both about getting actual maps of Lhomarr and > Davannia. > > :) Joe > I may be mistaken, but Im pretty sure that apart from the Thyatian Hinterlands in the Dawn of the Emperors Boxed set, 99% of Davania has not been officially mapped. Also I may be putting my foot in my mouth here, but I think Lhomarr is a creation of Geoff, so apart from him maps there should be no others. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:53:46 +0100 From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Physical Map of Davania? well that map came from the Master Set inside cover. then there were a colored version of it in the Hollow world and then in the RC Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st Join me at:thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr clenarius@hotmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gilles Leblanc" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Physical Map of Davania? > > > >what do you mean by physical? topographical? > > > Maybe he means a paper map from a boxed set. THe only one I know is the map > of Mystara which all all the continents on the same 2 pages. It is found in > the D&D rule cyclopedia. Im pretty sure their must be others tough. > > You should check Geoff Gander's site et the Davania Yahoo Group for maps as > well as Thibeault`s site ! > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:58:22 +0100 From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: Physical Map of Davania? yes for Lhomarr, it's geoff creation. the only Davanian part maps in canon sources are in the DotE, in the PWA2 and of course in the Dragon magazine for the Princess Ark serie of articles.Maybe Bruce Heard is the one to ask for it. I am making a 24 miles per hex map of davania. There is a version of it on my site www.mystara.fr.st Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st Join me at:thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr clenarius@hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 26 Feb 2002 to 27 Feb 2002 (#2002-58) ***************************************************************