Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 26 Mar 2002 to 27 Mar 2002 (#2002-85) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 28/03/2002, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 21 messages totalling 1227 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Stone is fulfilling my dream!! 2. Rif: Re: [MYSTARA] Blackmoor Errata (2) 3. Blackmoor Errata (10) 4. Magic vs. Technology 5. Some answers and ramblings on the Tome of Mystaran Magic (3) 6. Mystara GURPS Tech Level (1,000 AC) v1 7. Black powder , Magic and Technology oh my! (2) 8. Elven mortality & foreign policy ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 02:31:30 -0600 From: Stone Marshall Subject: Re: Stone is fulfilling my dream!! You can send me an email at MultizarTheMage@aol.com. I dont know how big it will let attachmenst be but my ICQ number is 136847357. contact me! > From: thibault sarlat > Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Stone is fulfilling my dream!! > Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:32:27 +0100 > > hey, Stone, what is the limit size an email can have for you to > receive?because the file is going to be huge... > > > Thibault Sarlat. > ICQ 16622177. > homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st > Join me at:thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr > clenarius@hotmail.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:57:44 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Rif: Re: [MYSTARA] Blackmoor Errata > Tech Limits- ultimately that is the individual DMs' choice. Given the length > of histories of some human and demihuman cultures, many seem technologically > stagnant. Hmm...I don't agree with this point. Mesopothamian cultures date millennias before Christ. Why should technology seem stagnant? The Mystaran technology is not that far from that of merely four centuries ago.>> Something similar could be said for many ancient civilizations. Civilizations tend to rise then decline. They either change or become the subject matter for the Discovery Channel. But that is not what the above was relating to. The above was meant to point out that many of the present day Mystaran nations with long histories are little different from what they were 500 years earlier. Look at real world history to see where we were at 500 years ago. Look at the ALphers. They had an established civilization vefore coming to Mystara. 2000 years later they are essentially unchanged...well minus the loss of the home continent. Thyatis is 1000 years old. Likewise I see little change. Then look at nations such as Glantri, Darokin, and Karameikos. Each have these growth spurts making them equal to their parent nations. Of course Karameikos only took off under Stephan's rule. To me, it seems like Alphatia and Thyatis were held back to let the other nations catch up. That's why I go with the psuedo-SoP to maintain a tech cap level for the SW. Further complicating development is the rather fast paced change of Mystaran peoples. Ex. Traladaran become Milenian on Davania yet Traladran on Brun remain same under Thyatian rule. Determining the tech level is difficult due to the mixed images that the Mystara line has. DotE has illustrations showing Alpher and Thy peoples dressed like the Three Musketeers. IMO that is more akin to the Red Steel peoples than the OW/AS and is very un-fantasy setting. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:01:30 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Blackmoor Errata <> It's different for different gaming groups and different DMs. What works for one won't always work in another. I don't think that you can go with a social mechanism. There are simply too many real world similarities to maintain a low tech environment without some outside influence. <> Minus the magic, what is the difference between herbalism and early medicine? Leeches? As for the MD and HMO, clerical healing should come with an added price. Quests and services come to mind. Payment is dependant upon the services and the service provider. <> LOL. The funny thing is that most of my Mystaran projects are more adult oriented. I am 30 years old and the stereotypical knight saving the damsel has to involve more than a kiss on the cheek. That's not to say that the PCs slay the arch villain and immediately strip buck naked and proceed to bump uglies in some form of M-Porno Flick. No, it's just that they are more realistic in their human needs and desires. PCs and adventurer types are the "live one day at a time" types. While STDs are rarely seen, pregnancies are often initiated thus producing some interesting bumps in the proverbial road. Alot of this adult theme stems from my focus on Alphatia. IMO Alphatians seem to be the horniest people on Mystara. It makes for more interesting character development. Other examples where there is a good deal of mature content are in my M-Vamp and M-PS projects. Vampires are very sexual oriented, even in Stokers original Dracula. Sex plays heavily into their feeding and filling those centuries of unliving. Planescape has its tieflings and fiends, hence alot of rutting going around. Neither projects are overdone with mature content, but merely use it as a character detail. There is also alot of inference to appease the censors :-). As far as health problems in general, I have implemented some in the past, present, and future. One of my detailed half-elves (on Vault of Pandius) has chronic stomach problems that limit his eating greasy foods. This stems from his elven parentage's preference for lighter foods. There are other examples, stemming from the common cold to eating some bad fish. Mostly it was minor inconveniences for a party or tied to individual NPC/PCs' histories. <> Technology builds upon itself. Using real world history, that primative airplane could be later develop into a P-51D Mustang within a few decades. And magic is not available to all of Mystara's inhabitants, even within the magical oriented domains. So a mass produced airplane would be more accessable to the masses. Technology is encouraged by necessity, i'll agree to that. It's human nature to better oneself, to make things easier for oneself, and provide added comfort. The trick is realizing a need and implementing a remedy to fill that need. <> Another aspect to introduce technology is through trade and interaction. Ex. That dwarven crossbow may be adopted by a human. Shared technology already exists to an extent as the various Mystaran races use similar weapons. Noids are raiders and therefore pick up all manner of nicknacks. Using them as they were intended is the trick. I use to throw all manner of items in among their treasure and item inventories to reflect this. Most noids are not stupid, their stats have them comparable to an average human. <> Well, history does offer numerous examples of accidental discoveries being used for inventions (viagra, microwaves, radar). It's taking those discoveries and applying them to a specific need that makes them useful. Many are used in ways that were different from their original intent (viagra). Yeah...alot of Viagra related spam has been getting through to my In Box. Anyway, it is difficult to imagine that simple tech based chemicals cannot be replicated or discovered by Mystaran alchemists. Gunpowder is a perfect example. Its components are easy to acquire and the formula is rather straight forward. It cannot be as complicated as crafting a potion of healing or something like that. Add to that the rules for research and fantasy physics and smokeless gunpowder and even a tactical nuke is not out of the quest. Though I would defer to the DM to rule heavily against these. Yes I am against Mystara becoming too tech oriented. I use tech alot in my projects but rarely will it be used for anything more than atmosphere and lore. I just love throwing something before the PCs to make them feel in awe of what was Blackmoor. Yes, the PCs may have killed the dragon and saved the damsel in distress, but they haven't taken on that Blackmoor OmniMech that lays in its service bay rotting in decay. IMO too much tech will erode the fantasy aspect of Mystara and make it...well like Earth. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:51:48 -0400 From: Just Another Grue Subject: Re: Blackmoor Errata That's why I mentioned the cultural bias for the dwarves' engineering capabilities. I'm not saying it would never happen, just that it would not catch on. But let's say a dwarf or gnome invents something as effective as the Wright brothers' contraption or Bell's Silver Dart. Most anything from the Retebius or Knights of the Air will be far superior (unless I'm brain dead here). So why bother trying to improve it unless you're totally driven to prove the superiority of technology and intelligence over flesh and magic? Sorry, I don't have the book regarding Serraine. "Top Ballista" is it called? I keep forgetting about it. >> Who needs to develop a primitive airplane when there are other, better >> conveyances available immediately. >> > > Dwarves and other non-magical races come readily to mind. Also > the Gnomes of Serraine. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 17:20:45 +0000 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: Blackmoor Errata I have had a player charmed by an older NPC sorceress and then commanded to have to have sexual relations after that PCs was making advances on her to gain her trust. Also at one time my players were traveling the Sind region/plain of fire for months with dry rations. I made them all sick at first they didnt know what was happening, I let them roll int checks to realise you cant live on dry jerky foerever :) Since then they always take great care to eat a balanced diet. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:27:41 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Blackmoor Errata <> I have Top Ballista but cannot recall the actual flight stats of the flying machines that are used there (speed, altitude, rate of turn, dive, armament). The Wright Flyer was a pitiful excuse for a plane. However it was the first powered plane and was designed for rather minimal flight. I'd have to check to be be certain, but I am sure that even an early plane such as a Sopwith Camel (used more for recognition) could hold its own against the Serraine air squadron planes. Likewise, a WW2 era prop plane should outperform any flighted creature on Mystara. I can check and draw up some flight characteristic comparisons if need be...and to be certain. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:45:53 EST From: Alex Benson Subject: Re: Blackmoor Errata <> did he have to make a constitution check before, during, or after? there's several jokes in that one if you think about it. <> I like that one. I mean it. I really like that one. The funny thing is that I can recall PCs (myself included) stocking up on dry and iron rations instead of normal foodstuffs. I never thought of that angle. Perhaps it's time for a cruel DM Tricks list to be started and added to. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:47:30 -0800 From: Jordi Castille Subject: Re: Blackmoor Errata We are now discussing airplanes in Mystara. The conversation was to talk about Water power and Steam power, and now we're jumping toward Airplanes. Guys, you need to chill for a minute. First of all, the reason for technology in a world full of magic is because people who perform magic, clerical or non clerical, are a minority on mystara meaning the rest want to feel the sensation of flying or wanting to have there lives a little easier without, or the fact that the armies of the known world want to fight in battles with new techniques or weapons that would lessen the amount of casualties on their side of the battlefield. Take for instance Darokin, a rich and rather large nation, they have to pay alot of money if they wish to put chainmail on every soldier in the republics army, but what do they do, They go for Lighter Studded Leather armor, and produce a fighting technique with Rapier and other lightweight swords they increase their armor rating by two making it equal to chainmail and gives the soldier and improved chance to hit his opponent at the same time. What we are discussing is that someday within a few years time, Watermills will be discovered, bring forth the first steps toward industrialization, but going from Waterpowered mills to Waterpowered Textile looms is has at least a span of more than a 100 years apart. What you need to realize is that the wheels of progress will continue reguardless of what you may think, Magic will still produce a superior produce, but the majority will look for comfort, and in the case of Darokin and the Minrothads, they are looking for efficiency and profit. Relax about the Hot air Balloon idea, the time differents between the renaissance and the Age of Exploration is only 100 aparts, and still the idea of hot air balloon, still won't go into effect, Unless Alphatia starts bringing in Zeppellins from Ooststook to the known world. Joridi Castille, Knight of Darokin. Alex Benson wrote: > --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:07:37 -0800 From: Jordi Castille Subject: Magic vs. Technology David Knott wrote: From: "la Volpe" > > Tech Limits- ultimately that is the individual DMs' choice. Given the length > > of histories of some human and demihuman cultures, many seem technologically > > stagnant. > > Hmm...I don't agree with this point. > Mesopothamian cultures date millennias before Christ. Why > should technology seem stagnant? The Mystaran technology is not > that far from that of merely four centuries ago. One point to keep in mind is that once Eurasian cultures developed agriculture, they began an ever accelerating technological revolution that would propel them to world dominance. The major hurdle is going from a hunter/gatherer society to an agricultural one -- after that step, things accelerate rapidly. I generally assumed that two factors stopped Mystara from undergoing a second Industrial Revolution in the post-Blackmoor era: 1) Many technological developments (such as gunpowder) are either completely impossible or possible only under specific rare circumstances on Mystara. 2) For some things (such as lighting) the available magical solutions actually work better than their technological equivalent. After all -- if you could get a wizard to cast Continual Light on the upper end of a pole along a road, there would be no reason to research more mundane ways to light that road up. ------------------------------------------------------------- 1.)Gunpowder was only made for the old west feel of Cimmaron and Guadalante that later spilled over to the entire Savage Coast. So the use of Gunpowder is restricted to that area, and looking for ways to develope Smokepowder would have to take many years, possibly even more than a century to do that 2.)The idea of putting continual lights on the metal ends of poles of poles is a good idea for the city, giving them reason not to research gas lights at all, but using logically reasoning, Wood is biodegradable, it can rot. secondly, mages who are hired to do that by the city would have to be paid a very hefty sum of money to perform casting a second level spell like that to light up a city like Thyatis. At a pole per street corner, replacing the hearth fires, i would have to say that it would cost them close to million gold pieces to get the whole city done like that, and then you have the Thieves guild wanting to steal or destroy them because it would mess up with their night time work, the rule of thumb for selling magic scrolls from paying games like Baldur's gate is that you pay 250 for a level 1 spell and 500 for a level two spell. and if i wanted to be fair and say that the cost of casting such a spell would be 1/5 of the scroll's cost, because that spell is in the m ! ages spell book, i would have to say that the cost of doing that be 100 gp per pole. I don't want to even discuss what to do with those poles in case of siege, but you get the picture. Jordi Castile Knight of Darokin --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:26:29 +0100 From: DM Subject: Some answers and ramblings on the Tome of Mystaran Magic The stage opens with Gilles Leblanc <bleakcabal@HOTMAIL.COM> screaming wildly:

You should have said they were in Italian first, I wouldnt have read on and
got all psyched !

eheh, but then I wouldn't have enjoyed reading your reactions. That was what I wrote it for, besides informing the Italian speaking member of the list that is ;)

Then Stone Marshall <multizar2001@HOTMAIL.COM> raised his axe and added:

Tell me about it! You would think he would have made a version in
english...after all it seems he can write in it!

Sure thing, but it seems to me it's a wee bit too long, 420 pages to translate into English (for free..). By the day I finish the 5th edition of D&D will be out ;)

Antonio Lopez <glaring_sands@YAHOO.COM> also strolled by and blabbered incoherently:

DM. anyway you are popular :-).

I WAS, back in the ole days... but I still am inside my region and that's fair enough ;)

(I got a 'The web site you are trying to access has exceeded its allocated data transfer' error

Dunno what the problem was with Geoshitties, but now it's ok and works perfectly for me.

Even Havard Roenne Faanes <havardfaa@YAHOO.NO> showed up and wisely added:

Marco, you are evil!

Yes yes, u know me far too well (also ask Gordon McCormick how evil I am.. I even got to invade his campaign masquerading as Marco De la monte ;))! Nice to see u Haavard ;)

Hehe, its good to see that youre still alive out there.

Yep, the army didn't take all of myself.. just chunks here and there, but nothing vital ;)

I don't think I'll be learning italian any time soon though, so I'll just wait around for you to finish the english version... ;)

oh, well, if u wanna wait till the next reincarnation, then you're welcome ;pp


And then, when everything seemed to be quietly nearing the end, Jorge=20 <Giorgio@ISLA.NET> run up the stage and went on rambling:

Estimado Sr. Marco,

Oh, wow! "esteemed" and "mr"... and I'm not even at work! :)


Con mucho inter=E9s leer=EDa tu escritos, sino fuera que este se encuentra en un
idioma que yo (y muchos lectores aqu=ED) desconozco.

El hecho que no mencionaste en que idioma estaba tu trabajo hasta casi el
final es o una mala broma, un anuncio enga=F1oso, o en mal gusto.

Oy oy, mal gusto, why? I just wanted to let the Italian members of this list that I had published something Mystara relevant in ITalian, so I was 100% in tune with the list's rules, and since this list speaks English, my message couldn't have come in any other language, else I'd have sounded rash or impolite.

O visto de
otra forma, una forma de molestar a los gringos (te comprendo)y su
arrogancia de que todo el mundo debe hablar y leer su idioma (no todos los
gringos son as=ED, pero suficientemente lo son como para dar un estereotipo).

No, it wasn't really my intention, rather I wanted to say to the people of this list: stop asking "can u tell me where can I find xxx Mystara stuff" and actually WRITE DOWN what u are needing! Put down ur ideas and toy with them, or collect all the stuff u've got around for Mystara and edit it, and u'll see how many good things you can do with it. you'll be amazed as I was, because it doesn't take a genious or a professional gamesdesigner to bring out something significant, interesting and coherent for this game. what u need is just:
A. TIME;
B. PATIENCE;
C. WILL;
D. A PROJECT;
E. PATIENCE.

So wake up, shake your fingers, and start writing something, maybe for Mystara 3 Edition, since this is what we're lacking now ! U don't have to write it in 3 days, just take your time, but don't let the goal escape u for too long ;)
You English speakers are lucky enough to have at your disposal the international language, and all of the Mystara stuff ever published is in that language so you have not to translate anything! You're one step ahead of me for example, you just need to make your project and write it down, so we all can read it! Don't waste your time, cause if u have time now, I assure u u prolly won't have any in the future, and if u do, u prolly won't have will or ideas or both. Trust me, I know what I'm saying ;)


Para los lectores americanos y hablantes del ingles que entienden lo que
acabo de escribir, o consiguen traducirlo de alguna forma, d=E9jame indicarles
que yo soy medio gringo (como dicen aqu=ED en mi isla a nuestros hermanos del
"norte") y que mi idioma de preferencia es el ingles. Prefiero mil veces
leer mis libros de ciencia-ficci=F3n y fantas=EDa en este idioma que cualquier
otro!

Contrary to you, Jorge, I love my mother tongue and I think it has many of opportunities for conveying ideas and feelings, and obviously I'm much more comfortable with it, so that's why I wrote the tome in Italian. That, and also for the pleasure of giving for once in this life something to the Italian Rpg fans only, who in the past had to suffer a despicable market strategy on the part of the D&D distributors in Italy, something u English native speakers never experienced I believe. :)

Sin embargo, no puedo hacerlo en italiano, y gustar=EDa saber si usted va a
distribuir una versi=F3n de tu trabajo en ingles en el futuro.

I'm sorry, this is not in my plans for near future. Escuchame, Jorge ;)

Bye everyone, and good gaming!

DM
Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac
Lt. Cmdr. of U.S.S. Unicorn

"You don't stop playing because you grow old:
you grow old because you stop playing!"

Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 And Mystara Italian Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940
Join the Mystara Webring at:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystri= ng.html
Join the Starfleet Academy at:
http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM)

------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:12:00 +0000 From: Agathokles Subject: Re: Some answers and ramblings on the Tome of Mystaran Magic DM wrote: > > > Sin embargo, no puedo hacerlo en italiano, y gustaría saber si usted > > va a > > distribuir una versión de tu trabajo en ingles en el futuro. > > I'm sorry, this is not in my plans for near future. Escuchame, Jorge > ;) OTOH, this is (on a very, very tentative base) on my plans--limited to the smaller Guide to Immortals, anyway. I hope to be able to translate the Guide to Immortals, even though it will take a lot of time. If someone else wants to translate some part of that work, it would speed up things significantly. -- Giampaolo Agosta agathokles@libero.it agosta@elet.polimi.it http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:42:00 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Mystara GURPS Tech Level (1,000 AC) v1 Very interesting discussion going on with regards to the topic of technology in Mystara. I plan on commenting on many of the recent postings, but in the meantime, here is my contribution. Listed below are the various Tech Levels (TL) as found in the GURPS RPG which I have found to be of great use in all of my various fantasy and non-fantasy based RPGs. Perhaps this can serve as a reference (or base) for more discussions on this topic. Following that, I created what I think are the current TLs of some the various Mystaran cultures (not all, feel free to add more entries) circa 1000 AC. Those books that I own, I mark with a * ; anyone that can fill in the missing entries on the other races of Mystara circa feel free to chip in. For now I will just make an entry as to the overall TL that I think fits a culture (it doesn't have to have every item on the list, but enough of them that it can be reasonable be place at this level of overall tech developments). If anyone is interested, I can post a more detailed breakdown of what elements I think are present in the case of those cultures that have two TLs (aka, a transition between one level and the other). For the record, I don't use the Hollow World setting in my game, so I intentionally omitted reference to them in this work. Hope this proves useful. George ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------ GURPS TL TL0: Stone Age General: lever, language Transportation: Walking; canoes; sledges Warfare: Fists, stone weapons; shields Energy/Power: Fire, slaves Medicine: Herbs Materials: Wood, leather, stone Tools: Hand tools Construction: Shelter Food: Hunting, gathering, horticulture TL1: Bronze Age (Athens) General: writing Transportation: The Wheel; horseback; horse-drawn carts; sailing rafts and small galleys Warfare: Metal weapons (metal-tipped spears and arrows; bronze swords), leather armor, chariots Power: Draft animals (horses and mules); water wheels Medicine: Supportive treatment. Military surgery Biotech: Farming leads to a practical understanding of basic heredity; plants and animals bred for desired traits. Microbes exploited to make bread, wine, and cheese. Materials: Bronze, ceramics Tools: Machines Construction: Monumental architecture Food: Agriculture, herding TL2: Iron Age (Rome) Transportation: Riding (horseback with a saddle); ocean-going galleys Warfare: Infantry formations, artillery, galleys. Iron swords; shields; scale armor Power: Windmills. Water mills. Medicine: Bleeding and purging the sick; chemical remedies Materials: Iron, concrete, glass Construction: keystone arch Food: Two-course field rotation TL3: Medieval (pre-1450) General: mathematics with zero Transportation: Stirrups; sailing ships Weapons and Armor: Armored cavalry; Steel weapons; lances, flails, crossbows; plate and chain mail; castles Power: Windmills, horses with horse-collars Medicine: Amputations and crude prosthetics, extracts Materials: Steel Construction: Dome Food: Three-course field rotation TL4: Renaissance/Colonial (1450-1700) General: gunpowder, printing Transportation: Fully-rigged ships; hot-air balloons Weapons and Armor: Black-powder muskets; cannon; sailing warships Medicine: Experiments that killed the patients Biotech: Optical microscopes make cells visible. TL5: Industrial Revolution (1701-1900) General: mass production, steam power, telegraph Transportation: Steamships; railroads; zeppelins Weapons and Armor: Ironclad warships; dynamite; repeating handguns Power: Steam engines; direct current Medicine: Germ theory of disease; anesthetics; early vaccines Biotech: Mendel's laws of heredity. Nature of cells and reproduction understood. Darwin postulates evolution Galton theorizes eugenics. TL6: Atomic (1901-1950) General: cars, airplanes, radio, rockets Transportation: Automobiles; aircraft; ocean liners; submarines Weapons and Armor: Battleships; tanks; machine-guns; fighter aircraft; fission bombs; flak jackets Power: Hydroelectric power; alternating current Medicine: Major surgery; Penicillin and other antibiotics Biotech: Mutation of plants and microorganisms using chemicals and radiation. Biochemistry comes into its own. Electron microscope allows viruses to be seen. Experiments in eugenics. TL7: Nuclear (1951-2000) General: fission power / nuclear energy, computer, laser, orbital travel Transportation: Jet aircraft; space shuttles; mag-lev monorails; hovercraft Weapons and Armor: Nuclear missiles; atomic submarines; jet fighters; Kevlar Power: Fission and hot fusion; solar Medicine: Organ transplants, genetic testing. Gene therapy? Cloning? Biotech: DNA, chromosomes and genes discovered, related to heredity. Genome mapping begins. Recombinant DNA and transgenics allow simple gene-engineering. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------ Mystara GURPS Tech Level (1,000 AC) v1 (Gaz 1)The Grand Duchy of Karameikos * --TL3: Medieval (European) (Gaz 2)The Emirates of Ylaruam * --TL3: Medieval (Middle East) (Gaz 3)The Magocracy of Glantri --TL3: Medieval (Gaz 4)The Kingdom of Ierendi* --TL3: Medieval (Caribbean) (GAZ 5)The Elves of Alfheim --TL3: Medieval (Gaz 6)The Dwarves of Rockhome * --TL3/4: Medieval & Renaissance/Colonial (Gaz 7)Kingdom of Ostland --TL3: Medieval (Gaz 7)Kingdom of Vestland --TL3: Medieval (Gaz 7)Kingdom of Sojerfjord --TL3: Medieval (Gaz 8)The Five Shires --TL3: Medieval (LOTR -Hobbits) (Gaz 9)The Minrothad Guilds --TL3: Medieval (Gaz 10)The Orcs of Thar * --TL3: Medieval (Nomadic/Raiders) (Gaz 11)The Republic of Darokin --TL3: Medieval (Gaz 12)The Ethengar Khanate --TL2: Iron Age (Gaz 13)The Shadow Elves --TL3: Medieval (Gaz 14)The Atruaghin Clans --TL0: Stone Age (Gaz 15)The Empire of Thyatis --TL2/3: Iron Age & Medieval (Roman Empire) (Gaz 15)The Empire of Alphatia --TL2/3: Iron Age & Medieval ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:53:08 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Re: Some answers and ramblings on the Tome of Mystaran Magic > Oh, wow! "esteemed" and "mr"... and I'm not even at work! :) No hay nada mal con demostrar un poco de respeto, eh? > I'm sorry, this is not in my plans for near future. Escuchame, Jorge ;) Eschuchado fuerte y claro! Gracias por la contestacion. :) George ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:47:34 +1100 From: Alfred O'Meagher Subject: Re: Rif: Re: [MYSTARA] Blackmoor Errata The relatively slow pace of change for the Mystara cultures might be coz of the Elves - they live a long time and if cultures change per generation, a generation that includes elves would be more like 200-500 years rather than 15-30 years, allowing for that, most of the cultures won't show much change until the 3000s AC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:51:17 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Black powder , Magic and Technology oh my! -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Jordi Castille Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 3:08 PM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: [MYSTARA] Magic vs. Technology > 1) Many technological developments (such as gunpowder) are > either completely impossible or possible only under specific rare > circumstances on Mystara. Unless you have some artificial limitations ( like lack of basic elements/minerals found on our planet or restrictions imposed by the immortals), black powder is actually quite easy to make. Historically the Chinese invented black powder in the 11th century, but it didn't reach Europe into much later. It was the Europeans that developed the military applications of black powder and even then, it took centuries before it replace the sword,bow,pike and cavalry as the main weapon of warfare. (GMs take heart, you can introduce primitive firearms in your campaign and realistically it can take a very long time before they can be reliable, mass produced, and dominate on the battlefield.) > 2) For some things (such as lighting) the available magical solutions > actually work better than their technological equivalent. After all -- > if you could get a wizard to cast Continual Light on the upper end > of a pole along a road, there would be no reason to research more > mundane ways to light that road up. This is one example of how you can use magic to replace or supplant technology in a game world. What you wrote above is a pretty tame application of magic for a commercial or society use. This of course begs the question of what else can magic do replace/supplant technology or how it can radically change how a society is created, maintained and involved in production of materials and commerce. The high level of magic use in Glantri could have lead to a lot more changes in their society (especially warfare ,transportation, communications, commerce and living conditions) and in the world at large, something that I don't think was sufficiently examined in the AD&D Glantri box set I have. When I started thinking about how to use just the 1st-4th level wizard spells in the AD&D 2E books for a commercial use, I was amazed on how a few simple spells could radically alter the development and/or tech level of a society. This lead me to use the Dragon Magazine article "The Magic Goes Away" to cut down on the problems caused by too many spell casters and to maintain a reasonable level of game balance and GM sanity. But that is a topic for another email.... > 2.)The idea of putting continual lights on the metal ends of poles of poles is a good idea for the city, giving them reason >not to research gas lights at all, but using logically reasoning, Wood is biodegradable, it can rot. secondly, mages who are >hired to do that by the city would have to be paid a very hefty sum of money to perform casting a second level spell like >that to light up a city like Thyatis. Which as any smart merchant house can see is a great way to make a lot of money if you can cut a deal with the city to offer the services of their mages to keep the city lit at night at a reasonable price [not only helps people see their way at night, it means more business can remain open during the night(which means more goods and services can be provided, which can be taxed of course ; continual lights are way better for night time illumination the loads of candles, brazzier,or torches, not to mention cheaper, cleaner, less labor intensive and lasts longer), provides better visibly for the police...er... city guards to patrol the city and keep crime down and helps your citizens feel safer and prouder of their city (my city has public lighting! Yours doesn't? How quaint.)]. Remember that things are usually more economical the bigger the scale/use/distribution of that tech/item. And the normal limit of magic being very expensive doesn't hold up well when you have a whole nation of intelligent ,creative and profit/power minded mages on hand. The cost of magic and magic items drops dramatically when there are a lot of people that can provide the spells, the material components and the skill to use them, especially in a competitive environment (which helps to keep costs down). Good ol' supply and demand at work..... Of course, the same merchant house can see the same opportunities in providing the city clean, efficient and low cost public transportation, public health/sanitation facilities, public sewage and water distribution, public communications services.... The city leaders (the smart ones anyway) can also see the obvious benefits in having a healthier, more mobile, more creative, better protected and more happy populace (Why? Because it leads to more productive citizens, that can work and produce more, which naturally can be taxed, which makes the important smart and business minded politicians/nobility and merchant houses richer, which means more coins in the cities treasury, which allows for the creation of a strong military and better infrastructure projects, which can be used to acquire more lands/natural resources for the citizens to exploit, which in turn means more sources of revenue for the city...). Pretty soon you have merchant house acting as utility companies (either private or governmental based) or the city doing all of the above (after all, mages that can cast the majority of the required spells don't have to by of very high level and the spells needed are very common or can be quickly researched, after all, you can just hire one of hundreds of Glantri mages to do the job) and charging taxes for it, and you have a society radical transformed from the basic medieval society. Sounds a lot like what the introduction of technology did to real world societies when used in the comercial, public and private sectors,eh? And this is with low level wizard spells. Don't get me started on what can be done with higher level spells in the hands of creative, industrious merchant mages, especially if they are back by any powerful political, commercial or governmental patrons. George ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:55:18 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Re: Blackmoor Errata -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Just Another Grue Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 10:52 AM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Blackmoor Errata > Most anything from the Retebius or Knights of the Air will be far > superior (unless I'm brain dead here). Who are the people/society mentioned above? George ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:08:34 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Elven mortality & foreign policy -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Alfred O'Meagher Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 9:48 PM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Rif: Re: [MYSTARA] Blackmoor Errata > The relatively slow pace of change for the Mystara cultures might be coz of > the Elves - they live a long time and if cultures change per generation, a > generation that includes elves would be more like 200-500 years rather than > 15-30 years, allowing for that, most of the cultures won't show much change > until the 3000s AC Interestingly enough, in quite a few fantasy RPGs and novels I have read, the long life spans and respect /maintenance of the "old ways" of doing things have lead many elven nations to a period of slow to fast decline in the face of more short lived,dynamic,or competitive races. Whereas the elves could have been around for millennia as the dominant races of their world, the usual start to lose their position of dominance to the shorter lived, aggressive, expansionist, dynamically competitive humans. Makes for an interesting historical note for any fantasy based RPG. In Mystara, I see the Elves of Alfheim (remember I don't have the book ) in 1,000 AC as sort of "stuck in time" and feeling increasingly under pressure of the more numerous humans that surround their nation. I see them as xenophobic (or with isolationist tendencies) under this setting and they only conduct limited trade with their nneighbors so as to keep in touch with the developments of the world (and how it may effect them) and to give the humans a reason to not simply invade their nation (their more profitable for the humans as trading partners then as slaves or enemies). Of course, this can all change once I get my hands on GAZ 5. (someday....) George ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:10:38 -0600 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Blackmoor Errata The Retebius Air Corp and the Knights of the Air are units from Thyatis that are flying beast riders, some even ride dragons! George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Giorgio" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Blackmoor Errata > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of Just Another Grue > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 10:52 AM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Blackmoor Errata > > >Most anything from the Retebius or Knights of the Air will be far > >superior (unless I'm brain dead here). > > Who are the people/society mentioned above? > > George > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:32:38 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Re: Blackmoor Errata -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Alex Benson Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 10:02 AM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Blackmoor Errata > It's different for different gaming groups and different DMs. What works for > one won't always work in another. I don't think that you can go with a social > mechanism. There are simply too many real world similarities to maintain a > low tech environment without some outside influence. I agree as a GM. The mere fact that trade exists between many of the Old World nations inevitably leads to technology, ideas, trade goods, knowledge and political ideas being spread around the various nations. Short of having a closed border or no trade relationships , these things are impossible to stop from entering a nation. Since trade and commerce does exist in the Old World nation, this naturally leads to merchants, politicians, nobles, governments and private commercial entities to look for ways to maximize production, increase distribution/transportation capabilities, protect the gods and lower costs so they can make more money from trade/commerce. This will eventually lead to some enterprising people to find a way to make things better, cheaper and faster , all of which require scientific, technological or magical R&D and innovation. Under this scenario, progress is inevitable and will lead to technological or magical advancements with time. This is what happened in our world, and I don't see why it can't happen in Mystara under similar circumstances. > IMO too much tech will erode the > fantasy aspect of Mystara and make it...well like Earth. Here I disagree. The fact that in Mystara Arcane magic and Divine magic actually exists and works, means to me that it can never be like our Earth. The presence or absence of magic is such a fundamental element that all else pails in comparison to it, and means that a world like Mystara can never be anything but vaguely similar to our own history and experiences. If I where to run a Mystara camping set in WW2 like era, it still would be such a radically different setting from our own WW2 era due to the presence of magic ;it would have lead to the creation of societies, technologies and developments so unlike our own history as to make any attempts at comparisons laughable. George ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:53:08 -0400 From: Just Another Grue Subject: Re: Blackmoor Errata LOL... okay, I guess I've been told. Thanks. :-) I'm chilly. I'll just keep it IMC. mystaraknight@YAHOO.COM wrote: > We are now discussing airplanes in Mystara. The conversation was to talk about Water power and Steam power, and now we're jumping toward Airplanes. Guys, you need to chill for a minute. > ... nah, I'll drop it. ;-) > First of all, the reason for technology in a world full of magic is because people who perform magic, clerical or non clerical, are a minority on mystara... > Oh? That's an interesting point all it's own. I like keeping magic a minority aspect in a fantasy game. A GM I play under likens it to modern technology. His worlds are litterally peppered with magic. A chicken in every pot, a PC in every home, so to speak. The city guard may not know why it works but the wand he carries lets him stun people. I don't like that magic AS technology which permeates the world. I like nice, primitive, dirty worlds with magic that really blows your socks off when you see it. > meaning the rest want to feel the sensation of flying or wanting to have there lives a little easier without, or the fact that the armies of the known world want to fight in battles with new techniques or weapons that would lessen the amount of casualties on their side of the battlefield. > Oh, I already have watermills IMC. And steam power too for the dwarves in Rockhome. (it's a well kept secret). > What we are discussing is that someday within a few years time, Watermills will be discovered, bring forth the first steps toward industrialization, but going from Waterpowered mills to Waterpowered Textile looms is has at least a span of more than a 100 years apart. What you need to realize is that the wheels of progress will continue reguardless of what you may think, > I'm not saying the wheels of progress don't continue. Just that due to many factors, only a few I mentioned, they won't continue as fast as on earth. Also I expect that there are a lot of alternate technologies that we never pursued or developed fully. On Mystara they could be quite common. Another aspect is that the magical guilds will probably become worried after a few generations as science becomes popular. At first mages will be happy that they have less competition. Then someone will realize that they don't have an apprentice. They can't find someone to apprentice. Why? All the smart kids are in those new public schools (in Darokin at least) and they are apprenticing to become scientists. Suddenly the magic users have a pan-profession problem. This itself makes for a good campaign of politics and subterfuge. How many mages with alchemical skills take up pure chemistry? Do the magical orders and guilds decide to try to discredit pure science? When might an immortal step in? And when people stop using magic, does it die? When people stop worshipping immortals... well, anyone read "Small Gods"? Not trying to start an argument. Just random thoughts. :-) > Magic will still produce a superior produce, but the majority will look for comfort, and in the case of Darokin and the Minrothads, they are looking for efficiency and profit. Relax about the Hot air Balloon idea, the time differents between the renaissance and the Age of Exploration is only 100 aparts, and still the idea of hot air balloon, still won't go into effect, Unless Alphatia starts bringing in Zeppellins from Ooststook to the known world. > Joridi Castille, > Knight of Darokin. > Alex Benson wrote: not catch on. But let's say a dwarf or gnome invents something as > effective as the Wright brothers' contraption or Bell's Silver Dart. > Most anything from the Retebius or Knights of the Air will be far > superior (unless I'm brain dead here). So why bother trying to improve > it unless you're totally driven to prove the superiority of technology > and intelligence over flesh and magic? > Sorry, I don't have the book regarding Serraine. "Top Ballista" is it > called? I keep forgetting about it.>> > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:53:46 -0800 From: Jordi Castille Subject: Re: Black powder , Magic and Technology oh my! Here's the deal, a Magocracy like Glantri may use Continual Light on a pole to do the and place them on poles to add nightlights to the cities of Glantri, but here's the problem, the DoD dispells just about every mortal magic known to man. Meaning that it can be forced to look for nonmagical ways to find comfort due to the fact that all mortal magic fails, once every year. Everu new year's eve in the known world, they wish to find a way for items to continue being used specially non magical ones that won't fail during the day of dread, I will have to tell you that all things are being made advanced whether it's magic or technology, during the war of the Norwold region between Norwold and the Heldannic Territories, The Alphans tried to find new magic. like using fresh lava to create a more stronger earthquake spell, all magic is being researched just as technology is being secretly researched. Jordi Castilele Knight of Darokin --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 26 Mar 2002 to 27 Mar 2002 (#2002-85) ***************************************************************