Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 10 Apr 2002 to 11 Apr 2002 (#2002-99) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 12/04/2002, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 14 messages totalling 676 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. GAZ 13 The Shadow Elves (long) 2. The Monolith Adventure Part I (2) 3. addition to "The Monolith Adventure " 4. The Monolith Adventure Part VI 5. 2E vs 3E - Know Alignment 6. 2E vs 3E (4) 7. 3E Alignment Discussion ( was RE: [MYSTARA] 2E vs 3E) 8. "The Monolith Adventure " (2) 9. The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 07:38:43 -0500 From: Giorgio Subject: Re: GAZ 13 The Shadow Elves (long) -----Original Message----- From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Dan Eustace Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:08 PM To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] GAZ 13 The Shadow Elves (long) > Anyways, I like your campaign ideas. A few questions though. > How are relations between the SE and Alfheim, esp. since the SE already have > a new enclave on the surface? The where required to drop all claims ; covert and overt hostile actions against Alfheim, by Duke Stephan by signing a peace treaty with them. Naturally, now that they had their own woods to call home, they agreed. > I'm assuming that with these developments, you won't be playing out the SE > invasion of Alfheim, which isn't a bad thing. I always liked Alfheim, and > having it "no more" isn't the easiest thing (although IMC it hasn't reached > that point yet - the PCs tipped off the elves to the SE invasion and Alfheim > will not fall so easily). Queen Tanadeleyo lost her father in the Inhuman War, and she lead her kingdom threw 10 years of warfare, and after that she has no desire for another war ;especially with the deaths of so many of her friends, family and people fresh in mind. Also with Xatapechitil (and his cloak destroyed) and Teleman dead the main agitators of an Alfheim invasion where gone. Kanafasti, and Porphyriel are to busy leading their people (mages/shamans) into adapting to the life, experiences and magic on the surface world to even think about war. Radiant General Garafaele (older and wiser), lost some of his bloodlust (and best officers) in the war, and has no desire to get into another war anytime soon. He is to busy adapting to the unique demands of surface warfare and rebuilding his army, and keeping up the SE part of the SE-Karameikos deal. > As far as SE mercs, do they still need to adjust to the sun in order to > freely roam the surface? Oh yeah. There is a two week long ceremony (The Path of Purifying Light) that the shamans perform for all Shadow Elves that want to live on the surface. During this time they fast, pray, study (about the surface, its weather, seasons, people, cultures, customs, economies...) and prepare for life on the surface. As for the SE mercs (I need a good Elvish name for them), they are all considered to be of veteran or elite level of experience (after all, they did survive 10 years of constant warfare) and are highly trained in Orc, Goblin, Troll, and Hobgoblin battle tactics and warfare. You can expect that they are in high demand and well paid for their service, as no troops (save the Dwarven Orc-Slayers) are anywhere near there level of expertise against these races. > What about the Vyalia elves already living in western Karameikos? Oh right. Forgot to mention them. They got wiped out in the Orc & Goblin invasions of 800-810AC and 980 AC. When Kanafasti and Duke Stephan struck their deal, the western woods where literally empty of elves. The Callarii elves to the east fared much better and survived where their cousins didn't, and they welcomed their SE cousins. George ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 07:06:29 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: The Monolith Adventure Part I From: Ville V Lähde Subject: The Monolith Adventure Part I Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >> Some time ago I promised to translate some adventures that I have written for Finnish RPG magazines years ago. Sadly, I have lost most of the zines long ago, and haven't been able to get my hands on them yet. (Do any Finns on the list happen to have old issues of Magus or Claymore? I'd very much appreciate copies of my old texts. I'll of course pay for the copies and postage, and throw in a few pints if we ever get to meet...) But I found one adventure in my old text files, and have started translating it. Here goes: << Hi Ville, I'm glad that you took the time to translate this adventur, and I hope that you do more in the future. This adventure has a great feeling to it (I read the posts as soon as you sent them - even though I was at work at the time...)! I just couldn't help it. Anyway, I didn't want these great posts to slide by without some kind of recognition. A job well done. I think I might even try creating a module for Neverwinter Nights based on this adventure when the game finally comes out. -John ===== Rule #53. If the beautiful princess that I capture says "I'll never marry you! Never, do you hear me, NEVER!!!", I will say "Oh well" and kill her. from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:22:10 +0100 From: Thibault SARLAT Subject: addition to "The Monolith Adventure " i am considering doing a zoom in map for your adventure. as for the stonehenge-like circle of stones, i know where to find a pictu= re of it...X13 i also was at work and couldn't help reading the posts as they arrived. good scenario thanks thibault ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:18:52 -0300 From: Just Another Grue Subject: Re: The Monolith Adventure Part VI Yep, there's nothing like being at work reading an excellent D&D adventure with lots of cool background material. As soon as I got into the backstory I knew I had to incorporate it somehow into my relaunched campaign. Wonderful work. Ville.V.Lahde@UTA.FI wrote: > Here's the final part of this adventure. I hope you find it to your > liking. I'll check the text for language errors and inconsistencies when I > have the time, then I'll send a better version for Shawn's site. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 18:14:29 +0000 From: Gilles Leblanc Subject: Re: The Monolith Adventure Part I Yeah Iv just read the first part, but when I have the time ill read the rest. I could use this IMC thanks. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:27:30 -0600 From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Re: 2E vs 3E - Know Alignment That's interesting. Can you give an example of an alignment that someone might have? ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Hrabovsky" Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 12:59 PM Subject: Re: 2E vs 3E > In my game Know Alignment is an extremely awesome spell. It actually allows > the caster to know the alignment of the target of the spell. Political, > religious, familial, or whatever. If a character is aligned in a particular > way, that is revealed. > > Just my 2 cents. > > George ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:34:13 -0600 From: Angelo Bertolli Subject: Re: 2E vs 3E I think someone may have posted a "new battle system" for 3E before. While I love to stick to the rules, the combat rules in 3E are by far the biggest deterrent for me. If anyone has a modified system, or would like to come up with one that's simpler and puts the game (while still keeping balance between classes) back on simpler original D&D combat terms, that would be wonderful. I've been told that if you don't use maps, Fighters lose out because they have special attacks that rely heavily on positioning, etc. However it's all just a system of numbers. I'm SURE there's a way to take the 3E numbers and make a simple battle system. Here's what I would suggest: use a very simple combat system for most battles, and when you have big important battles, use the full rules. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Harvey" Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:32 AM Subject: Re: 2E vs 3E > Why did I switch back and forth? The initial switch to 3E was > because it looked new and interesting and we wanted to try it. Later > I switched back to 0E because I felt it was too complicated and > played more like a video game than an RPG. However my players were > dissatisfied with 0E after playing 3E, and certainly combat was less > crunchy. Also at that time the 3rd party stuff was just starting to > come out, and the mystara conversion team was ramping up. So we > switched back to 3E. Combat *is* very crunchy and if that's your main > activity in the game, you'll love 3E. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:33:46 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: 3E Alignment Discussion ( was RE: [MYSTARA] 2E vs 3E) I think Mike brings up a really good point that I would like to discuss seriously. IMHO, I think that the 3E-Mystara group is really good, but I get the impression that they are trying to make Mystara more generic. If there was a conflict between Mystara way vs. D&D 3E way, D&D 3E seems to win. I even suggested, creating a Mystara-d20, as opposed to a D&D 3E. Anyways, I am diluting my point, so I will stop and get on to it. Alignments are a big concern of mine, and I think moving toward good vs evil does two things: (1) over simplifies conflict, and (2) makes role-playing an alignment overly complex. I wrote an essay on the topic and suggested eliminating good and evil. They did not want to go for that, so I suggested this as an optional rule. As an optional rule for Mystara-3e, I would suggest having ONLY LAWFUL, CHAOS, and NEUTRAL. For spells like Know Alignment, this would reveal the persons order vs chaos level, but nothing more, unless the game master wants some campaign specific effect that is desirable to add, such personality roles offered documented in Northern Reaches. For spells like Detect Evil, these will detect a persons intentions at the time of the spell. Thus, the spell will not fully determine whether a character is TRULY evil, but rather provide an indication. If an character comes up evil several times when the spell is used, then this might be an indication. Though for most gentry, this will vary. Some might be angry and imagine harm upon another (EVIL), but later that same character might make amends and wish good will upon that person (GOOD). IMC, I will use this optional rule and do away with good/evil alignment completely. I don't know if the Mystara-3e folks will incorporate this. If people are interested, I can repost my essay about why good/evil don't fit well in Mystara here... - Joaquin > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of Mike Harvey > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 1:32 AM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] 2E vs 3E > [snip] > > Another factor in conversion is the results. For some things, 3e is > very different and doesn't really convert well. Alignment is a good > example; there are evil folks on Mystara but they're not always easy > to identify, and many are hard to peg as good or evil. We tried > everything we could think of on the conversion team to deal with > this, and finally gave up. Alignment is too deeply rooted in 3e to > extract. In theory you can work around it; in play, my group detected > alignment all the time (its only a first level spell now). This to me > is a fundamental failing, as it turned a mystery into hack and > slash. It's okay if you want that; I don't. > [snip] > > * 0E alignments are not very important; 1E/2E were fairly important, > and 3E alignment is crucial. [snip] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:13:36 -0700 From: macnerd Subject: Re: 2E vs 3E Here's my 2 copper pieces. ANALYSYS OF 2E I find that 2E is a decent system that collects many chaotic, inconsistent, conflicting rules in 1E and adds some order. In the 2E system the classes groups together, based on stats, saves, hit points, proficiencies etc. These are: WARRIOR, MAGE, PRIEST, and ROGUE. The Rogue is sort of a generic group for a variety of classes that fit with the saves, d6 hit points, etc. The experience points varies. This was a logical system to create classes, but the problem is that no one used this, and instead created kits. In 3E, each class has a specific list of supported skills and stats. It makes it extremely complicated to create a base class. The kits started out as a general role-playing role, but later changed to actually add/subtract abilities from a given class. The kits evolved later to make the classes almost entirely something different, and were often times more unbalancing. I remember the Elves Handbook seem to award more abilities for the more classes with multi-class kits. It got out of hand. In 2E, the idea of specialty priests was introduced, where priests were either generic clerics, or were govern by spheres. Spheres were originally introduced in Dragon Lance 1E, and it is a way to define spells in a particular categories like Plant, Animal, Charm, Chaos, Law, Combat, Necromancy, Sun. The gods would have spells from these groupings that would fit their area of worship. For example, a Druid would have Animal and Plant, while a god of war would have Combat. It allowed for custom religions and specialized priests. The 3E system did away of this and remade everyone into generic priests. :-( The idea of specialized priests can be incorporated as prestige classes, but alas this has not been done extensively. I thought this would be done for Forgotten Realms to a major extent, as they had bookloads of specialty priests defined, but it has not for 3E for any major extent. In 2E, proficiencies are common, and some net books even used the proficiency system to add powers and create negative hindrances, much like GURPS or Fantasy Hero. In 3E, the system is more strict, and the skill list cannot be touched at all, even if the skill doesn't exist. So, if there is a skill you want, but it is not on the list, then forget it. It doesn't exist in the universe. Goodbye things like Ventriloquism. Gamers are encouraged to create feats instead. A major negative about 2E is the dual-class and multi-class system inherited from 1E. This has never been revised until 3E. Lastly, there were a new set of rules, which I think are unbalancing, but nevertheless desirable by players, was the skill points. This was an attempt to have a skill point system where players can take hindrances for more skill points, and each level buy new skills. They also introduced alternative magic systems, which was really super cool, and had some cool combat rules. Most of this cool work has yet to be truly integrated into 3E. Actually, a lot of stuff seems neglected in 3E, so it's like throw away good stuff and buy new stuff. Fortunately the market is cool, and third party companies are creating better 3E material that WotC. ABOUT 3E Everyone is going to 3E, or at least some sort of d20 system. It's not easy to learn the system, but I think it is essential. In 3E, all classes have the same experience. There are 20 total levels. Any character can multi-class, including humans. The total level of classes equals how much a PC must pay in experience. So a Fighter/Mage/Thief of level 1/1/1, would have to pay the same experience as a Mage/Thief of Level 1/2, or the same experience as a Fighter Level 3. There are further penalties though for having more than one class, but some races get bonuses to certain classes. Thus, in Mystara an Elven Fighter/Mage would not suffer extra penalties, but still has to pay experience for total combined levels. A really nice thing about 3E, is that the resolution system is same for everything, one d20. A character has to roll against a difficulty class (DC) on a d20. Beat it, you win. The armor class is the same, beat it you win. Thus if someone has an AC 18, you must roll above an 18 (AC2 in 0E). If someone has an AC 12, then roll of above 12 (AC8 in 0E). If there are two opposing forces, such as a thief's ability to Hide vs the guard's ability to Spot, both must make a roll against their perspective DC. The person that wins it by the most, wins the contest. This could be the same generic things like arm wrestling, both persons roll against a DC which is modified by their STR bonus. The person that wins by the most points wins the contest. The mechanics for this are universal. In 3E, the skill list is limited as are the classes. But this is what makes the system simplified. It is good for the players, but it kinda of makes things generic. I think though it is a challenge to create new stuff, as they have to balance it within current system. For other d20 systems, they can create their own set of classes and skills which fit into that particular campaign. I am sure for unique games like DragonLance or DarkSun, this is what would happen. I can NEVER imagine a 3E system for Blackmoor, as I would want to add tech skills and classes, so I would probably gravitate towards to a Blackmoor-d20, rather than Blackmoor-3e. I think though 3E might be able to fit if there are exceptions/options to the rules when Mystara characteristics vs generic 3E pop-fantasy characteristics collide. Another things about 3E, is that any race can be any class. I discourage this deeply, as Mystara has somewhat limited classes for different regions. I would discourage a dwarven wizard, which is perfectly reasonable in 3E, but not necessarily for Mystara. I had an argument about the acceptability of a Paladin in Northern Reaches. One guy was overzealous in the idea that anything can be played anywhere, so wizards, sorcerers, bards, paladins in his mind was good for Northern Reaches. Though, I was against this, as they don't culturally fit. The paladin's lay on hands, turn undead, etc. just doesn't fit well in a pre-Christian Norse Viking environment, which is similar to Northern Reaches. - Joaquin > -----Original Message----- > From: Mystara RPG Discussion [mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On > Behalf Of E Howington > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:54 AM > To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > Subject: [MYSTARA] 2E vs 3E > > > Hi all, > > IMC, we're playing with original D&D rules (red, blue, > teal boxed sets) because we all hated 2E AD&D. > > Now, we're curious about 3E. Can anyone give us a > quick comparison between 2E and 3E? For those of you > who have played both, what are the major differences > in gameplay and character development? > > We want to hear from someone who's played them both > before we make an investment in new rulebooks. If this > has already been discussed somewhere, could you please > point us toward that discussion? > > Thanks! > Eric the Red > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:54:24 -0700 From: Kar Ess Subject: Re: "The Monolith Adventure " Great scenario. Saved it and made a few minor changes to fit in my campaign. Was going to work on the maps, but if someone else is ... may I have a copy, please? KS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:46:14 -0500 From: Stone Marshall Subject: Re: 2E vs 3E > Everyone is going to 3E, or at least some sort of d20 system. It's not > easy > to learn the system, but I think it is essential. > Nope, not me. I am 28 years old with 2 kids, a job, a house, and not near enough time to play D&D as it is now. We use the original rules out of the Rules Cyclopedia. When we want to play AD&D we use 2nd edition rules. I also own or have .pdf's of all 1st edition material that is availible. I have some of the 3rd edition .pdf's and, and this is just my opinion, that it is too cumbersome for new players. I am currently teaching my son, who is 9, how to play D&D. He has a 2nd level fighter and we are in the Dymrak Forest hunting humanoids. He is grasping the basics of the game and I think that if I tried to teach him 3rd edition first he would have not liked it very much. Don't get me wrong....3rd edition is fine for the 15 to 25 crowd with plenty of time on thier hands to learn all the rules and changes, but as for this old fogey ;) I will stick to basic or 2nd edition forever. BTW...when is 4th edition due out? ;) Multizar the Mage _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 07:18:04 +0200 From: thibault sarlat Subject: Re: "The Monolith Adventure " well Karl, do not hesitate to make your own and we'll shere our results... Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st Join me at:thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr clenarius@hotmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kar Ess" To: Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 1:54 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] "The Monolith Adventure " > Great scenario. Saved it and made a few minor changes to fit in my > campaign. Was going to work on the maps, but if someone else is ... may I > have a copy, please? > KS > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 23:44:48 -0700 From: Beau Yarbrough Subject: 2E vs 3E At 15:13 4/11/02 -0700, macnerd wrote: > In 3E, > each class has a specific list of supported skills and stats. It makes it > extremely complicated to create a base class. Huh? The classes listed ARE the base class. Or are you saying it's hard to replicate 2E classes? Because, even then, it's not -- all their skills and abilities are included in the 3E versions. I totally don't get what you mean here. > The 3E system did away of this and > remade everyone into generic priests. Um, no. There's a whole section about Domains, and they give specific examples in the PHB of how the domains for priests of different gods have different spells and abilities. Specialty priests are now the basic sort of cleric in the game. > In 3E, the system is more strict, and the skill list > cannot be touched at all, Where do you get that? There's a number of new skills in supplements both by WotC and White Wolf. > It's not easy > to learn the system, but I think it is essential. My two campaigns switched from 2E to 3E more or less seamlessly, and everyone commented how, after a single session, it all made so much more sense. Your mileage may vary, obviously. ;) > In 3E, the skill list is limited as are the classes. Aren't there more skills in 3E than there were in 2E? > For other d20 systems, they > can create their own set of classes and skills which fit into that > particular campaign. I am sure for unique games like DragonLance or > DarkSun, this is what would happen. The new Ravenloft actually just created a new skill or two (Hypnotism is one of them, which is one you wanted back), a new feat or two, and changed half-orcs into something more Ravenloft-appropriate. Pretty simple, and it works great. > I can NEVER imagine a 3E system for > Blackmoor, as I would want to add tech skills and classes, so I would > probably gravitate towards to a Blackmoor-d20, rather than Blackmoor-3e. The D20 Star Wars RPG would be a good starting point as well. > Another things about 3E, is that any race can be any class. I discourage > this deeply, as Mystara has somewhat limited classes for different regions. > I would discourage a dwarven wizard, which is perfectly reasonable in 3E, > but not necessarily for Mystara. I had an argument about the acceptability > of a Paladin in Northern Reaches. One guy was overzealous in the idea that > anything can be played anywhere, so wizards, sorcerers, bards, paladins in > his mind was good for Northern Reaches. Though, I was against this, as they > don't culturally fit. The paladin's lay on hands, turn undead, etc. just > doesn't fit well in a pre-Christian Norse Viking environment, which is > similar to Northern Reaches. Well, it's your campaign. Beat the player with the PHB until they agree to read Rule Zero: Check with the DM first. BEAU http://www.LBY3.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 23:48:24 -0700 From: Jordi Castille Subject: Re: The Drow vs. Shadow Elves Debate Ah the great Drow-Shadow Elf Debate, we have heard this before alot, but for the sake of arguement, The Shadow Elves was developed to make thm unique to the D&D world of Mystara during it's original system, as the OE D&D game, where as I ran it as an OE and 2E AD&D system, I was a big fan of the Elf Character Class or the Dwarf Character, being that i believe that the AD&D system gave more variety for Demi-human. The Shadow Elves are not drow you are right, they don't worship spiders, and most of their items are not Spider based, but they do have items that are Radiance Based, Thank you Rafiel. When the idea of the Drow to be introduce to the underdark of Mystara was discussed it was part of the concensus that we were to put a moderate to a small kingdom of the drow underneathe the Adri Varma plateau, We can even put a small Enclave in the Denagoth Plateau for that idea. We do know that the only mention of the Mind Flayer was in Glantri's Campaign sheets giving an idea to ! a mind flayer taking over the temple of rad and learning about the radiance, so if it's possible to put Illithids in the Known world, putting Drow shouldn't be far behind. The Shadow Elves are Elves that were affected by the Glantri Explosion and were washed with teh radiance, they went to live in the hollow world as the shattenalfheim elves who worship Atzanteotl, while those in the city of the stars and the kingdom of Aengmor worshiped Rafiel, and the city of Aengmor under the Broken lands worshipped Atzanteotl, but getting back to it, these guys knew how to work the radiance, unfortunately they were force to pay by giving birth to deformed children one of the most famous yet unknown is the Prince of New Kolland, Prince Kol of Glantri, (only his nursemaid from his past know that he's a deformed shadow elf.) My question is why not try to find place to put Drow in if you wish to put the drow around. I see no problem with that. Jordi Castille Dan Eustace wrote: No, the Shadow Elves are definitely NOT drow. This confused some of my players to no end during the invasion of Alfheim in WotI. They immediately assumed that the SE were evil, based on their knowledge of other game worlds. I'm not about to dispel their impressions, either. They were quite confused when they came across a SE village with oridinary elves there. They figured that the good common folk were ruled by a tyrannical overlord. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 10 Apr 2002 to 11 Apr 2002 (#2002-99) ***************************************************************