Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 22 May 2003 to 23 May 2003 (#2003-134) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 24/05/2003, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 16 messages totalling 622 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Alignements & Mystara: WARNING (2) 2. Alignements & Mystara (9) 3. Julio Ortiz 4. Islandia Campaign 5. Alignments & Mystara (2) 6. Fwd: MML ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 09:54:43 +0200 From: Federico Kaftal Subject: Alignements & Mystara: WARNING Since I started this potentially "hot" thread, I feel myself responsible to self-moderate it, so please forgive me for this warning: Could we please refrain from using further RW POLITICAL examples like Al Qaeda/Mossad or even in general RW RELIGION such as Jesus Christ and Ghandhi? There's plenty of historical and mythical examples out there, such as Charlemagne Robin Hood and Merlin, which will not offend anybody and are often clearer in getting to the point. Thank you, Federico _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:03:26 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Alignements & Mystara ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Mayer" To: > 9-Matrix: Lawful Good > RW example: Charlemagne, Roland, King Arthur, Parzifal, George Washington :) > because they set up law and did everything for its defense... I doubt that Charlemagne and Roland were Lawful. Certainly Roland was not. You should think that we received his personality from epic stories, mostly Ludovico Ariosto. But in real history Roland was a merciless warrior. He massacred a lot of people just because they were enemies of his kings and he was killed by spanish men (and not by muslim as is widely known) because he looted and pillaged their land... Charlemagne maybe was lawful, but certainly he was not good. He massacred thousands of Saxons and many other people to defeat them, burning their homes to the ground. I doubt the lawfulness of George Washington too, if not the goodness. He betrayed a lot of promises done to indians (allied indians, not enemy ones) and Britains for reasons of wars. By the way I doubt any political or army leader of any nation could be considered lawful good, because history is written with blood and deceit, and great and famous men are the ones who written it this way. So I think is better to use the example of a good judge for the lawful good.... Really I don't find in history just one lawful good person, but i know at least two lawful good people in my real life.... > 9-Matrix: Chaotic Neutral > RW example: Most teachers should fit...... Maybe the best example could be some dishonest merchant... > 9-Matrix: Chaotic evil > because they just destroy for their own goals without respect for life or > law. El Khaida is certainly evil but not chaotic. They believe in muslim laws, even if twisted. I think the best example for a chaotic evil allignment should be a serial killer. Even a cruel revolutionist don't fit well in this alignment, because probably he would have a system of belief and ideals.. Just MHO, because i think it's funny in the game to have political leaders who are apparently lawful good, for example, but are really lawful neutral or evil. Remember this: for IIWW Germans Hitler was the Lawful good one and Roosevelt the Lawful evil one. And for americans themselves Stalin was lawful neutral when he was an ally during the war and became lawful evil during the cold war. Anyone should decide in his/her game if someone is a real LG person of if it's only viewed this way by the people who believe in him. Anyway the best was the originale D&D system: just lawful, neutral and chaotic, so a lawful person could be anything from good to evil, and often he was evil for some people (Eusebius for alphatians, for example) and good for others (Eusebius for thyatians, probably...) bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 09:54:18 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Alignements & Mystara It's a good thing we've avoided flame thus far, but I would caution people, as others have said, to avoid RW analogies that might touch a nerve, because they are subject to interpretation. That said, I've always thought that the examples given in the AD&D 2E PHB weren't that bad for alignments. Perhaps the most confusing alignment to me is Chaotic Neutral. The example given in the PHB was one of a madman, but can anyone here think of another example of that alignment that would not be insane (again, without drawing analogies that could erupt in flame wars, so generalities would be preferred)? Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 10:31:13 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Julio Ortiz Just a general question - is Julio Ortiz still on thie List? He was the author of the Misplaced Queen, a home-brew OD&D adventure set in the Isle of Dawn, which he made available to those who asked for it. He mentioned that he had a number of other home-brew modules set in Mystara, and I was wondering if he was still around. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:27:03 +0200 From: Francesco Defferrari Subject: Re: Islandia Campaign ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Cherrington" To: > The only thing I came up with is this... > The Islandia Campaign: Super Module Bx1 (Dungeons and Dragons) > by John William Rice, John Wheeler (Contributor), Johm Wm Rice > > It is out of print, but since I never heard of it, I would say it never got printed. According to the informations i found in the net, this module was never printed nor written. Anyway it should have been an adventure linking Base and Expert, but after the module B10 was produced instead of it. The adventure should have been based on an island far from the known world, with very low magic. I don't think it was meant to be in the hollow world, but maybe this module was the first idea of a low magic hollow world in Mystara.... (I've readed all this in www.dungeons.it an italian site that sells OD&D modules) bye Francesco ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 18:07:29 +0200 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: Alignements & Mystara isn't Zandor fitting for CN? Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. Personal homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Gander" To: Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 3:54 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alignements & Mystara > > > It's a good thing we've avoided flame thus far, but I would caution > people, as others have said, to avoid RW analogies that might touch a > nerve, because they are subject to interpretation. > > That said, I've always thought that the examples given in the AD&D 2E PHB > weren't that bad for alignments. Perhaps the most confusing alignment to > me is Chaotic Neutral. The example given in the PHB was one of a madman, > but can anyone here think of another example of that alignment that would > not be insane (again, without drawing analogies that could erupt in flame > wars, so generalities would be preferred)? > > Geoff > > -- > Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 > Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer > Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy > au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:25:29 +0200 From: Daniel Mayer Subject: Re: Alignements & Mystara: WARNING Hi, Fredericio, sorry for giving political examples. I just had problems to find "evil" historical RW examples outside politics/religion. Someone like Nero might be chaotic neutral or neutral evil, of course, but he's political also, just a few centuries ago... So I give a few examples of others: Chaotic evil: Jack the Ripper Neutral evil: most Mafia-members should fit in, good old Ninjas (may be every of this three classes) Lawful evil: Al Capone, every Mafia-Patron should fit..., members of the chinese/japanese "Triade" Better? Greetings Daniel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:44:08 +0200 From: Daniel Mayer Subject: Re: Alignements & Mystara Hi, Francesco! In this case, we should reconsider the definitions: "lawful" means for me not only to know law, but to hold it up as prime directive. "good" means for me to save and protect life and peace. In my case, alignments are at no interpretation of "mortals", because the principles of good and evil are to be viewes as objective as possible. I know it is greatly unpopular, but I need to make this comparison: Hitler was "viewed" as "good" man to the German because he gave work to his people (my, to say so...). Never can he in roleplay-alignments be considered "good" because in D&D "good" means avoidance of war, bloodshed or anything like that. IMHO he is *the* embodyment of LE. Lawful yes, because he set up a *very* rigid system of laws... with evil methods for his evil intentions. In your interpretion, Arthur must be lawful evil, too, because he almost held war his entire life... And not only for defense! To gain his crown, he had to defeat nearly every independent tribe of England. As Agressor. *After* his coronation, he fought only in defense and could be viewd as "good"... The alignments "good" "neutral" "evil" therefor should be defined by the background of the actions: Elminster killed thousands of humans (Zhents, e.g. ToT) who did nothing else than following orders. "good"??? Yes. But certainly not a lawful one. He didn't look into any written law what he is allowed to do and what not. My intention why I took persons *not* of ancient times is excactly the problem you stated: Roland and Charlemagne.... good or not? We don't know it. Sources speak against each other and we have no Elves who could speak of what they saw... But we certainly know of the people since 1900, perhaps some years more. Please keep in mind: Writing was a previlege of the Clerus in older centuries.... they wrote what they wanted to be written... Please do not consider that one a flame o.s.l.t., it's quite intriguing what other members (and you, of course) of the list think of alignments. Greetings, Daniel aka Laren Nightmaster, High Dragonlord ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 19:46:27 +0300 From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: Re: Alignements & Mystara I can't agree with this; this would make paladins non-good by definition > Never can he in roleplay-alignments be considered "good" > because in D&D "good" means avoidance of war, bloodshed or anything like > that. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:43:10 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Alignements & Mystara With Mystara, I have always down played the alignments. I use them to know the objectiveness of NPC's, but players only used them as a reference for them to play on. A Faris would be LG in Ylaruam, but a Thyatian Paladin would not be considered LG in Ylaruam. This is a cultural bias. Both are LG, they follow the laws of their land, and both are good as they follow the morals of their precepts or clergy. What would be more apropriate for Mystara is a culture preference table. Further breakdown would be needed than just saying a Thyatian views Alphatian as Hostile and therefore evil, but one that would say how certain cultures veiw each alignment in general. Rad and Ixion had the same alignment, and both promoted the same sphere of Energy; but both believed the other was evil or up to no good. Glantrians did not think their magics was openly evil or chaotic, nor did they neccesarily view Alphatians as evil; but Alphatians were abhored at the Glantrian practices of magi ! c. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 19:52:32 +0200 From: Daniel Mayer Subject: Re: Alignements & Mystara Hi, Eyal, I meant "avoid", not "don't do"... paladins are 'defenders' of faith. Indeed, the idea of active "hunting" (search and track down) enemies would more be like the corresponding prestige classes, but as ususal the difference is fine and not always clear to draw. Please be not offended by my articles, I seem to have a *very* individual idea of alignments.... ;) Greetings ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eyal Fleminger" To: Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alignements & Mystara > I can't agree with this; this would make paladins non-good by definition > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 14:35:07 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Alignements & Mystara Thib wrote: > isn't Zandor fitting for CN? He certainly would be, but I think he's also a few slices short of a loaf, too. Do you think it's possible to be CN without being insane? Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:14:49 -0700 From: Daniel Gioffre Subject: Re: Alignments & Mystara All, This whole discussion has only solidified my belief that the OD&D system of a Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic axis is preferable to the "modern" 9-value system. A few people now have commented on the problems of "regional bias" when dealing with the differences between good and evil. They rightly realize that, having granted the theo-philosophical premise that good and evil are culturally determined factors, the value of the good-evil alignment axis is questionable. But for those of us who think that both the RW and Mystara operate on objective definitions of good and evil, the 9-value system is still a poor choice; I simply don't think that it makes any sense. I have never been able to understand categories like lawful evil and chaotic good. Let's take Robin Hood as an example of CG (he is cited in the 2nd edition AD&D PH as an exemplar of CG, as I recall). Robin Hood broke the laws because they were UNJUST. He did not fight for a destruction of all laws, but for the restitution of a rightful ruler and for justice for the oppressed. So how is he chaotic? The rule of law is the rule of justice. If justice is not being done by the law, then it is the LAW that is faulty, not those who oppose it who are chaotic. Use of law to enslave or coerce has at its core a decidedly unlawful perspective...to dominate others while remaining free of domination oneself. So what is this if not chaos? "Aha!" you say. "But surely a Lawful Evil character believes that he is acting with regard to metaphysical laws...laws that state that killing babies and oppressing others is 'correct' whereas altruism and self-sacrifice are 'incorrect'." True, but in a world with objective moral values (such as I am assuming), such belief is FALSE. The "LE" character's opinions and actions are actually contrary to the moral laws that govern the world. Hence chaotic. Therefore, bringing in the Good-Evil axis is unnecessary because it creates categories which, to me, are nonsensical. To quote Aaron Allston in the Rules Cyclopedia (when commenting on converting monsters from AD&D to D&D): use the Law-Chaos axis to determine alignment and use the Good-Evil axis as a guide to role-playing. Well said, Aaron. People are imperfect in the RW, and unless you are running a very strange campaign, they are imperfect in Mystara as well. People with a strong belief in the value of justice can sometimes not act in accordance with these beliefs. People make mistakes, they slip up, they get caught up in a movement or a pattern of behavior and find themselves doing things that they never thought that they would do. And vice versa. The OD&D system allows characters to make these sort of movements without having to change their alignment; they're simply part of their existential adventure! Lastly, I feel that I must say that DISAGREEING WITH SOMEONE DOES NOT MAKE THEM EVIL! Rad and Ixion can reason to different conclusions without making one "good" and one "evil"...and I'm not just talking about objective metaphysics but about subjective interpretation. It is a hallmark of fanatics who believe that any deviation from a "party line" makes you EVIL. So whether you are a Christian, an atheist, a Aristotelian, or a post-modernist (or some combination thereof), I do not understand how the 9-value system is better than the old Law-Chaos axis. I am sure that many of you, if not all, disagree with me. :) Best, -Dan P.S. As a personal sidenote, I touch on some of these issues in the little serial that I'm posting to the Vaults of Pandius (The Mystara Chronicles), if anyone is interested in how I think these issues would work out in a lawful nation like Karameikos. P.P.S. I have a wicked hangover, so please excuse me if this is rambling and/or doesn't make sense. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 23:08:30 +0200 From: Daniel Mayer Subject: Re: Alignments & Mystara Hi, Daniel! Nice statement. Not bad. But in one sentence, I see the point where at least I find the difference in the discussion so far: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Gioffre" > > "Aha!" you say. "But surely a Lawful Evil character > believes that he is acting with regard to metaphysical > laws...laws that state that killing babies and > oppressing others is 'correct' whereas altruism and > self-sacrifice are 'incorrect'." True, but in a world > with objective moral values (such as I am assuming), > such belief is FALSE. The "LE" character's opinions > and actions are actually contrary to the moral laws > that govern the world. Hence chaotic. This is it: "correct" and "incorrect" are phrases in the line good vs. evil! If one follows the law strictly, he's lawful. Wheter the law states killing babies or keeping every baby alive is the problem of good and evil. And as many members of this list stated correctly: good and evil are defined by culture until a certain point. One may overlook the Gazetteers: Most Glantrian are defined "chaotic" and in their description are many hints for evil intentions. In OD&D chaotic need not, but is in most cases like evil, because chaotic is synonyme with "selfish". There are no ways in my opinion to do *by will* "good" while in the strong believe doing all for oneself alone. Your last sentence states that the view of an outsider with a different opinion of false and right could define "L" to "C". Not so. But "good" in Glantri is in many, many cases "evil" in other lands. Like Alphatia, too. What I want to say: L/N/C is a thing you can view "objectively". G/N/E is (nearly) always backed by culture and for that subject to personal view. Most of the time the LNC -alignment is used/viewed/questioned by magic or simple magical creatures: They understand if someone accepts rules or not. A lawful sword e.g. wants someone who believes in a code of law ("predictable"). Whether it is a "good" one or an "evil" one.... hey, that may give much fun in RPlayingWorld... a lawful (intelligent) Vestland warhammer according to Thors law may deem a honorable fight above everything... If the opponent is the local super-paladin or the villain. Who bothers? fight is fight. :) Anyway, I see they point all of you made so far and I could life with them. May no one have taken offense and sweet water or beer run down your throats :) Greetings, Daniel ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 01:19:08 +0300 From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: Re: Alignements & Mystara Oh, I wasn't offended; but I still think that "good" does not preclude a rather "bloodthirsty" offensive action, as long as due care is taken to protecting the innocent (e.g., an attack on a bandit fort with massive force, while taking care to avoid injuring hostages) Eyal > Hi, Eyal, > > I meant "avoid", not "don't do"... paladins are 'defenders' of faith. > Indeed, the idea of active "hunting" (search and track down) enemies would > more be like the corresponding prestige classes, but as ususal the > difference is fine and not always clear to draw. Please be not offended by > my articles, I seem to have a *very* individual idea of alignments.... ;) > > Greetings > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eyal Fleminger" > To: > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 6:46 PM > Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Alignements & Mystara > > > > I can't agree with this; this would make paladins non-good by definition > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 17:03:12 -0700 From: Kar Ess Subject: Fwd: MML Can someone check on this please? KS --- jason o'brien wrote: > From: "jason o'brien" > To: "Kar Ess" > Subject: MML > Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 20:14:02 +0100 > > Hi Karessa, > I was wondering if you have gotten any mail from the list in the last > week > or so. > I haven't, and I sent a mail but got no confirmation. > If you have received some can you let me know, and let Geoff know I seem > to > be off list at the moment, I don't have his address. > Thanks. > Jason. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 22 May 2003 to 23 May 2003 (#2003-134) ****************************************************************