Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 26 May 2003 to 27 May 2003 (#2003-138) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 28/05/2003, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 9 messages totalling 402 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Location of Duke/King Stefan's Hunting Lodge? (2) 2. Alignements & Mystara (5) 3. Alignments & Mystara 4. Alignements & Mystara - opps. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 10:34:59 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Re: Location of Duke/King Stefan's Hunting Lodge? > Anyone know if there's an established location for the Duke/King's hunting > lodge, described in X12 Skarda's Mirror? If there is no canon location, > does anyone have suggestions for placement? > There is no established place for the hunting lodge. When our group played the adventure, I placed it near the coast, west of the city. I established that the lodge was built on lands that were taken away from the Marilenev clan after the rebellion. So it's pretty close to the village of Marilenev. I actually had some Traladaran dissents working for Skarda, including former members of Veiled Society/Radu clan who have been driven outlaw during the earlier arventures. Ville ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 10:57:44 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Re: Alignements & Mystara I have never used any alignments in my Mystaran campaign (or I dropped them very early on), but we have discussed this issue with my friends many times. Here's just one way of looking at it: The diametric opposition between "Good" and "Evil" in the AD&D aligment constellation is based on the assumption that Good and Evil are tanglible forces, principles that manifest themselves in the world. Most AD&D worlds are fashioned after this assumption - there are "Evil races", whose evilness is not only a result of actions but also of essence. The assumption is also built into the system, for example in some spells like Detect Evil, which detects not "evil intentions towards the caster", but "emanations of evil"... Evil is a force, not a moral stance. (I think this makes any RW comparisions a bit awkward, since this metaphysical assumption is hard to transfer to the RW.) I have been playing AD&D in Realms for 15+ years (one single campaign that is still going on), and this is the position that we have adopted to the game: we no longer look at Good and Evil as questions of morality but as positions one takes to the metaphysical powerplay between two differing forces. The Law-Chaos axis and the personal flavour of PCs and NPCs define "morality" as we understand it. (As has been seen in the discussion of this list, very few of us could really grasp the idea of tangible moral FORCES, however.) I think this is the only way to use the AD&D system if one wished to keep the strong links to the game system. This is a lot of fun, since it allows interesting conflicts when people confront situations where "fighting for good" for example seems to involve similar actions than those of the baddies... "Action morality" (law-chaos) has very little to do with "religious/metaphysical moral allegiance" (good-evil) in this reading. But, of course, this is a load of crap. Why? Since I believe that diametrical opposition of GOOD vs. EVIL, perceived as a feature of the universe, could be possible only in a monotheistic worldview. And not only that there's a belief in a single deity (and possibly his/her antipode, like Satan, depending whether Evil is the absence of good or a tangible force) - there also has to be a shared cultural code that has been permeated with the monotheistic view. Only then is it possible for the concepts to become so petrified. In a genuinely polytheistic worldview this wouldn't happen. Now, the Realms pantheon has a lot of emphasis on the GOOD vs the EVIL camp - with neutrals dealing with "elemental forces" like nature, luck and such. So if one is ready to leave some problems aside, it is possible to separate personal morality and mataphysical morality in the way that I described. In Mystara, I think, this simply wouldn't work. The world isn't fashioned after the inherent assumptions that reside in the AD&D system of morality. Imposing that system on Mystara changes tha flavour of the world. Sorry for the confused form of this mail, but I had too little time to explain myself properly. Ville ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 14:17:10 +0300 From: Eyal Fleminger Subject: Re: Alignements & Mystara I think you mixed me up with someone - my part of the argument was only the bit on the top Eyal > > A well structured arguement Eyal, with well stated assumptions. I couldn't > help > but pull it to bits :P Please don't take offence, I just thought another > spin > might prove interesting :D > > Chris. (who has been very inactive lately) > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 09:46:13 -0700 From: Daniel Gioffre Subject: Re: Location of Duke/King Stefan's Hunting Lodge? The Duke's hunting lodge is actually located near Sulescu...I'm quite positive about this, but I forget exactly where this little tidbit is located. I'll check when I get home. -Dan --- "David S. Leland" wrote: > Anyone know if there's an established location for > the Duke/King's hunting > lodge, described in X12 Skarda's Mirror? If there > is no canon location, > does anyone have suggestions for placement? > > Thanks, > Magus Coeruleus > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 10:11:31 -0700 From: Daniel Gioffre Subject: Re: Alignements & Mystara Chris, You claim that the problem of "regional bias" when dealing with matters of good and evil is eliminated by your definitions, in which you state that for one to be good one must assert a "greater good" and act to bring this about. How does this take care of the problem? Assuming for a minute that you are running a campaign without objective categories of good and evil, this does nothing but use the word "good" to describe whatever great goal that a person or society is striving towards. By this definition, Thar is good, Stefan Karameikos is good, the Black Eagle is good, etc. If you do this, you effectively remove the Good-Evil alignment axis as anything USEFUL for running a campaign. It seems to me that you are stating that the problem of regional bias is eliminated through appeal to objective categories (i.e. when you say "greater good", you have some particular value or collection of values in mind, something that you think is universal in scope). You're right; but I'm not arguing that. What you still have to show is how those people who prefer a regional bias model are better served by the 9-alignment system. -Dan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 10:22:39 -0700 From: Daniel Gioffre Subject: Re: Alignments & Mystara Daniel, > This is it: "correct" and "incorrect" are phrases in > the line good vs. evil! > If one follows the law strictly, he's lawful. Wheter > the law states killing > babies or keeping every baby alive is the problem of > good and evil. Thanks for your response, but I think you're missing my point (more likely I did not express it clearly the first time!). What I was driving at with my initial post was that if you are in a campaign with an objective category of good (such as I was assuming), the way in which one is "oriented" with regard to this category would make one lawful or chaotic, which makes the category LE nonsensical. If you want to use the term LE in an "objective" campaign to describe the way in which an evil character does his evil deeds (i.e. through state coercion, etc.), go right ahead. It just seems to me that by doing that you really weaken the Law-Chaos axis. It's as if you were saying that good and evil are objective but law and chaos are subjective. And I'm not sure that you can argue that. By all means, give it a shot...I'm very interested by this whole line of discussion. Best, Dan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 15:39:49 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Alignements & Mystara > > From: Chris Furneaux > However I will offer up this interpretation: > > To me alignment is about a personalities mindset... > > ***Lawful*** - The rules accepted by the majority of ones own society are all > important. > > ***Neutral*** - The rules of a society are important to abide by but not as > important as other stuff. > > ***Chaotic*** - Other's opinions simply do not feature into the equation. > > ***Good*** - there is a greater good to be achieved and I am here to help. > > ***Neutral*** - Good things happen, evil things happen, get over it, I am. > > ***Evil*** - I am the greater good, all for one and more for me and all that, > *OR* just the "vindictive" "nasty" types who care about inflicting pain on > others and do it because it is "bad". > I like this interpretation. It still shows that a LG person from Alphatia is not viewed as LG in the same sense of a Thyatian LG. Now a Darokin merchant of almost any alignment would see the LG in both the LG Thyatian and LG Alphatian. The same as most other cultures could see the LG in a Shadow Elf and LG in an Alfheim Elf, but if you ask the Alfheimer what he thought of the LG Shadow Elf following Rafiel to his promised land, you get serious tentions. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:59:18 +1200 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Alignements & Mystara - opps. opps. You are right. Sorry Eyal. Dam copy and paste :D it was daniel's mail. sorry for mixing you up. Not sure how I managed that. /me hits head against wall :D Chris. > I think you mixed me up with someone - my part of the argument was only > the > bit on the top > > Eyal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 10:09:44 +1200 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Alignements & Mystara > You claim that the problem of "regional bias" when > dealing with matters of good and evil is eliminated by > your definitions, in which you state that for one to > be good one must assert a "greater good" and act to > bring this about. I am asserting that it is not what the greater good is but mearly that one is persued. Of course you are most welcome to use the alignment system any way you like, I am simply offering the way I make the 9 system useful to me, as several people have claimed that they find it difficult with their definitions. > How does this take care of the problem? Assuming for a > minute that you are running a campaign without > objective categories of good and evil, this does > nothing but use the word "good" to describe whatever > great goal that a person or society is striving > towards. By this definition, Thar is good, Stefan > Karameikos is good, the Black Eagle is good, etc. If > you do this, you effectively remove the Good-Evil > alignment axis as anything USEFUL for running a > campaign. I'm not sure that Thar is evil. I don't know enough facts to make that call. in gaz 10 I think he is Chaotic and in PWA3 he is NE. so: ***Neutral*** - The rules of a society are important to abide by but not as important as other stuff. ***Evil*** - I *am* the greater good. I think could fit well. He thinks he is most important but tends to like rules and even the rules of others, unless there is something more important to do. As for stefan, I still say he is LG as it says in any canon source I know of, but thats another debate that has been had here before. As for the black eagle, he *clearly* knows what he is doing is for his benifit and not any greater benifit and so is *clearly* evil by my definition. As for it's usefulness, the use of the axis is not in what deads the individual does as such but how they act when the characters meet them. Is it about themselves or is it about someone else, and do they care for the rules or do they not think about the rules. They were never meant to be a complete description of a person but one can extrapolate alignment with other infomation to try to see how they might respond. > It seems to me that you are stating that the problem > of regional bias is eliminated through appeal to > objective categories (i.e. when you say "greater > good", you have some particular value or collection of > values in mind, something that you think is universal > in scope). Actually it is the combination of the words greater+good that describes an objective that a person with a good alignment would desire. the objective desired must be seen by the character as doing some "good" for the greater world (i.e. more then himself and his friends etc... ) when the oppitunity presents itself. The value of good is still cultural defineable and the value of greater depends on the precieved world so neither needs to be defined by me. It is *a* quality that the value posseses with regard to the individual that holds that value. > You're right; but I'm not arguing that. > What you still have to show is how those people who > prefer a regional bias model are better served by the > 9-alignment system. I'm not saying you are better served by a 9-alignment system if you use a regional bias model for your good and evil ALIGNMENT definitions. In fact I would say that a 9-alignment becomes non-sensible using that system. So Rather then limiting you to a 3 value system, it is posible to avoid the regional bias for "alignment definitions" as I described. The regional bias model for good and evil is still ablicable to the perceptions of the people involved, but good alignment does not = good to everyone. Alignment + cultural bias is needed to understand a persons views of good and evil. Hope that makes sence. Chris. *On a side note, I think some of the issue seems to arise from the fact that if someone *could* by any strech of the imagination be seen as good then we will tend to say they could be good. We tend not to apply the same to good people actually being evil I think (although it has happened before). but this is just an observation that I haven't really decided on yet. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 26 May 2003 to 27 May 2003 (#2003-138) ****************************************************************