Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 8 Jul 2003 to 9 Jul 2003 (#2003-173) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 10/07/2003, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 13 messages totalling 1059 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Planar Warfare Part 3: Remote Attacks (4) 2. Planar Warfare Part 2: Staging areas (5) 3. Planar Warfare , allowed or not allowed? (3) 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[MYSTARA]_Planar_Warfare_Part_2:_Staging_areas?= ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 07:48:31 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Planar Warfare Part 3: Remote Attacks Remote Attacks Another use of the Gate spell could be to open up a gate above their heads and then shower them with destructive spells. A large number of low level mages (using fireball, lightning bolt, etc…) could be very effective at demolishing a fortress from within its own walls, or at scattering an advancing column of troops. Attacks of this kind could also be used as a means of assassination. Simply scry upon the leader of enemy forces, open up a gate, and then pummel them with an overwhelming barrage of destructive force. Gates could also be used in conjunction with summoning spells. Open a gate in the middle of town, and summon monsters on the other side of it. Close the gate and you are safe from any rampaging that your summoned creatures are doing. This kind of warfare might be akin to more modern forms of war where one simply points a missile at one’s enemies and then shoots it off. In this case mages can bombard their targets with destruction, all from the comfort of their own towers. The Glantrian DoomsDay weapon may be an immortal power level example of this kind of combat, but I don’t see why the major nations (or powerful wizards like Barimoor) couldn’t also use these tactics. -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:16:08 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Planar Warfare Part 3: Remote Attacks > > From: John Calvin > > Remote Attacks > Another use of the Gate spell could be to open up a gate above their heads Don't forget the very destructive use of Time Stop also. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 16:45:41 +0100 From: Colin Davidson Subject: Re: Planar Warfare Part 3: Remote Attacks ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Calvin" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 3:48 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] Planar Warfare Part 3: Remote Attacks (cut) > The Glantrian DoomsDay weapon may be an immortal power level example of this > kind of combat, but I don't see why the major nations (or powerful wizards like > Barimoor) couldn't also use these tactics. Should gate really work like this? Am I wrong in my assumption that somewhere there's a description of travelling between planar nodes just in order to get so somewhere you can open a gate from? Suppose someone gates to the Ethereal. They then still have to traverse the distance to a similar location on the Prime before coming back to the prime, and travel on the Ethereal plane is a sticky, potentially arduous affair. Suppose they gate as far out as the Astral (which in the Mystaran multiverse sits further out than the ethereal). They have to negotiate the hazards of that plane before coming back via another gate to the prime. Might be possible to go through the elemental plane of air, and there might be planar nodes to outer planes in multiple locations that give a way of abreviating distance. But the inhabitants of the plane of Air are going to refuse to get drawn in to a war in this kind of way, and travelling on the outer planes is a hard game to play. But even if all of these things aren't problematic, your biggest problem is that the only safe place to be a mortal is the Prime, specifically on Mystara. There, you're off limits to any interfering immortals who want to hurt you. It's either a very brave or a very stupid immortal that risks the wrath of the Council of Intrusion by breaking that rule! But once you're off the prime you're fair game. So lets assume that Alphatia sets up a gate to the Astral plane, and builds a staging area there to launch an attack on Thyatis or Glantri. They have not only to fend off the worst efforts of their foes , but they have to fend off anything Alphaks, Vanya, Rad or any one of a half dozen other gods might throw at them. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:05:07 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Planar Warfare Part 2: Staging areas Ok, I've done a little 3E calculations regarding the Gate spell and here are the numbers I come up with: The lowest level that is capable of casting Gate (an 9th level spell) is 17th. Thus in a non-Epic campaign there will be wizards from 17th to 20th level that can cast Gate. The Gate spell can create an opening from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster's choice - not level dependant) and can be held open for a number of rounds equal to the caster's level (17 - 20 rounds). Medium sized troops usually have a 5'/5' facing and can move with a base speed of 30' per round. Assuming that you have a 20' diameter gate, then that means that you can get troops marching through 4 at a time. With a 30' movement rate you can get 6 rows of troops through per round. So a 20' gate opened for 17 rounds will get 408 troops through per casting. A 20' gate opened for 20 rounds will get 480 troops through per casting. However, the above numbers assume that troops are moving through the gate at a walking pace. The troop numbers can be doubled if they hustle, and trippled or quadrupled if they run (depending upon their encumberance and maximum run rate). 17rnds 20rnds walk 408 480 hustle 816 960 runx3 1224 1440 runx4 1632 1920 With these kinds of numbers it may very well be feasable to overrun a small fort or castle from the inside. Larger installations may be taken (quickly) as well if this tactic is used in conjunction with a standard siege. Here is a question to ponder over (for those who like thinking about such things): Assuming that these tactics work, and that both Alphatia and Thyatis have access to mages with these powers, then how would differently would the WotI play out? Here are some of my ideas: - Alphatian troops could bypass the IoD entirely and land troops directly in the Known World. The question is would they land them in Glantri or in Thyatis? If the war against Glantri is just an excuse to invade Thyatis again (which I think likely) then their main target must be the Empire of Thyatis. - Likewise Thyatian troops could find themselves directly on the Alpher continent with neither a long sea voyage nor battles on the IoD in their way. - Battles might become more like guerilla warfare. Hit and run tactics. Gate in, destroy something valuable to the enemy (troops, natural resources, supply chains, etc...), and then gate back to a secured area. -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:23:42 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Planar Warfare Part 3: Remote Attacks > Suppose someone gates to the Ethereal. They then still have to traverse the > distance to a similar location on the Prime before coming back to the prime, > and travel on the Ethereal plane is a sticky, potentially arduous affair. Ahh... yes. But this assumes that you are not using the Gate Spell, but instead looking for naturally occuring gates on the respective Transitive Planes. The 3E description of the Gate Spell specifies that a caster can open a gate directly to the desired location on the target plane. > But even if all of these things aren't problematic, your biggest problem is > that the only safe place to be a mortal is the Prime, specifically on > Mystara. There, you're off limits to any interfering immortals who want to > hurt you. It's either a very brave or a very stupid immortal that risks the > wrath of the Council of Intrusion by breaking that rule! But once you're off > the prime you're fair game. > So lets assume that Alphatia sets up a gate to the Astral plane, and builds > a staging area there to launch an attack on Thyatis or Glantri. They have > not only to fend off the worst efforts of their foes , but they have to fend > off anything Alphaks, Vanya, Rad or any one of a half dozen other gods might > throw at them. Here I agree totally. I think that this was one of the points I brought up in Part 1 of my post. When on another plane you have to deal with the natives (be they mortal or immortal). But once again we are talking about the two (arguably) most powerful nations on the face of Mystara. Alphatia also has some experience with planar travel (it's how they got to Mystara in the first place). And if Ierendi can maintain a staging area on the Ethereal plane then why not Thyatis, or Alphatia? I have some answers (hopefully they even make sense). In Ierendi's case they maintain their Ethereal station with help from another extra-planar power (fire elementals IIRC). So you could say that the Ierendians have made some kind of pact or alliance with their extra-planar neighbors. In my opinion, the Empires would need to do something similar. Either that or they would need to find a very defensible extra-planar location and create a veritable fortress there. This also raises the issue that if the Empires can essentially create colonization attempts on other planes, what's to stop the inhabitants of other planes from colonizing portions of the Prime Material? The very act of moving large numbers of troops onto other planes would invariably draw attention to the nation (and the world) doing so, and may invite unwanted guests to come and visit your home turf. But in war, anything that gives you an advantage over your enemies would at the very least be considered (no matter what the risks were) and at the very most it would be implemented. -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:52:18 -0700 From: Joe Kelly Subject: Re: Planar Warfare Part 2: Staging areas One way around it, is to secretly create a pernament Portal, in which case = tons of troops could infiltrate the area. Like Feistman's and Kurtz's war = with another planet.=20 JK Wolf >>> chimpman.geo@YAHOO.COM 07/09/03 09:05AM >>> Ok, I've done a little 3E calculations regarding the Gate spell and here = are the numbers I come up with: The lowest level that is capable of casting Gate (an 9th level spell) is = 17th. Thus in a non-Epic campaign there will be wizards from 17th to 20th level = that can cast Gate. The Gate spell can create an opening from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster's choice - not level dependant) and can be held open for = a number of rounds equal to the caster's level (17 - 20 rounds). Medium sized troops usually have a 5'/5' facing and can move with a base = speed of 30' per round. Assuming that you have a 20' diameter gate, then that = means that you can get troops marching through 4 at a time. With a 30' movement = rate you can get 6 rows of troops through per round. So a 20' gate opened for 17 rounds will get 408 troops through per = casting. A 20' gate opened for 20 rounds will get 480 troops through per casting. However, the above numbers assume that troops are moving through the gate = at a walking pace. The troop numbers can be doubled if they hustle, and = trippled or quadrupled if they run (depending upon their encumberance and maximum run rate). 17rnds 20rnds walk 408 480 hustle 816 960 runx3 1224 1440 runx4 1632 1920 With these kinds of numbers it may very well be feasable to overrun a = small fort or castle from the inside. Larger installations may be taken = (quickly) as well if this tactic is used in conjunction with a standard siege. Here is a question to ponder over (for those who like thinking about such things): Assuming that these tactics work, and that both Alphatia and = Thyatis have access to mages with these powers, then how would differently would = the WotI play out? Here are some of my ideas: - Alphatian troops could bypass the IoD entirely and land troops directly = in the Known World. The question is would they land them in Glantri or in Thyatis? If the war against Glantri is just an excuse to invade Thyatis = again (which I think likely) then their main target must be the Empire of = Thyatis. - Likewise Thyatian troops could find themselves directly on the Alpher continent with neither a long sea voyage nor battles on the IoD in their = way. - Battles might become more like guerilla warfare. Hit and run tactics. = Gate in, destroy something valuable to the enemy (troops, natural resources, = supply chains, etc...), and then gate back to a secured area. -John =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, = e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at = the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push = the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com=20 ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp=20 The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/=20 To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM=20 with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:09:18 +0200 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Planar Warfare , allowed or not allowed? I don't think that a DM should allow whole armies to be gated from one place to another, just by the casting of a single spell. The cost of the material or their availability should be so great to prevent any frivolous casting. Now it's true that for powerful empires or daring groups, it might be worth the shot. But think of it. There has been no such events in the history of mystara so far. If such tactics could have been used, they would have been used, and reported as such by historians. In my contribution to the almanach events for AC1019, I have "invented" a sort of stargate portals for the HK, but who cost gem value to be used, according to the total level of characters who wants to cross and use it (about 500 gp per level) and which does not allow to choose the targeted area. I firmly believe that only immortals artifacts should have a special power to gate a number of people from one place of the prime to another, or from one period of time to another, but only on very specific and rare occasions. I think that what gives Mystara its particular flavour is (among other things) the fact that although its an heroic fantasy world, it remains plausible. of course there are magic spells that could shatter mountains and lift flying cities, but they are not common knowledge. Take the Princess Ark for example. It is a remarkable magical item, but it is unique. mingling with space (magical and instaneous transportation) is also mingling with time...and i don't see the Hierarch of that sphere allowing such ways. I read in a dragon magazine article (#178), concerning souls and the spheres something enlightening: let me sum this up. a soul is made of the five "elements": thought and energy govern the spirit while energy and time govern the body. entropy is also contained in the body (since a soul is not corruptible) but weakens as a creature ages. the entropic elements vanish when a creature dies of old age. This explain why Entropy is so proccupied with destroying rather than letting life runs its natural course, since a violent death would release a greater amount of entropy elements in the Prime. So it's pretty obvious that large killing (battles, slaughters ...) release a great amount of entropy; thus allowing instaneous invasions would mean allowing large scale killings, and would in the end boost the sphere of entropy to the detriment of the others and so would endanger the balance between the spheres. As i said before, i would advise DM to render armies transportation through a gate so costly or so dangerous that conventionnal ways would be far more economic and far more efficient. I also read in a Forgotten realm supplement about a spell which prevent any magical intrusion. I assume that most capitals or cities have been made "intrusion resistant"... One last example comes to my mind. It required the full might of several immortals to convey a large number of alphatians to the HW when the doomsday weapon destroyed the alphatian continent. I don't like the idea of mortals having such a power. as always, i think any opinion is worth sharing, and i don't want to impose my may, i just wanted to contribute to the discussion. Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. Personal homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:19:39 +0200 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: Planar Warfare Part 2: Staging areas in the dragonlord series there were such portals, but this is no "offical history". Maybe the immortals won't allow it anymore... Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. Personal homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Kelly" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Planar Warfare Part 2: Staging areas One way around it, is to secretly create a pernament Portal, in which case tons of troops could infiltrate the area. Like Feistman's and Kurtz's war with another planet. JK Wolf >>> chimpman.geo@YAHOO.COM 07/09/03 09:05AM >>> Ok, I've done a little 3E calculations regarding the Gate spell and here are the numbers I come up with: The lowest level that is capable of casting Gate (an 9th level spell) is 17th. Thus in a non-Epic campaign there will be wizards from 17th to 20th level that can cast Gate. The Gate spell can create an opening from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster's choice - not level dependant) and can be held open for a number of rounds equal to the caster's level (17 - 20 rounds). Medium sized troops usually have a 5'/5' facing and can move with a base speed of 30' per round. Assuming that you have a 20' diameter gate, then that means that you can get troops marching through 4 at a time. With a 30' movement rate you can get 6 rows of troops through per round. So a 20' gate opened for 17 rounds will get 408 troops through per casting. A 20' gate opened for 20 rounds will get 480 troops through per casting. However, the above numbers assume that troops are moving through the gate at a walking pace. The troop numbers can be doubled if they hustle, and trippled or quadrupled if they run (depending upon their encumberance and maximum run rate). 17rnds 20rnds walk 408 480 hustle 816 960 runx3 1224 1440 runx4 1632 1920 With these kinds of numbers it may very well be feasable to overrun a small fort or castle from the inside. Larger installations may be taken (quickly) as well if this tactic is used in conjunction with a standard siege. Here is a question to ponder over (for those who like thinking about such things): Assuming that these tactics work, and that both Alphatia and Thyatis have access to mages with these powers, then how would differently would the WotI play out? Here are some of my ideas: - Alphatian troops could bypass the IoD entirely and land troops directly in the Known World. The question is would they land them in Glantri or in Thyatis? If the war against Glantri is just an excuse to invade Thyatis again (which I think likely) then their main target must be the Empire of Thyatis. - Likewise Thyatian troops could find themselves directly on the Alpher continent with neither a long sea voyage nor battles on the IoD in their way. - Battles might become more like guerilla warfare. Hit and run tactics. Gate in, destroy something valuable to the enemy (troops, natural resources, supply chains, etc...), and then gate back to a secured area. -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:51:43 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Planar Warfare , allowed or not allowed? First of all, let me say that this is a great discussion going on. Second of all let me say that the purpose of starting such a discussion was to 1) explore how some of the more powerful magical spells (and Gate as described in 3E certianly seems to be powerful) would affect warfare, and 2) how could such magical changes to the ways wars are fought generate adventuring opportunities for the PCs (which is what this should all be about anyway). >> I don't think that a DM should allow whole armies to be gated from one place to another, just by the casting of a single spell. The cost of the material or their availability should be so great to prevent any frivolous casting. << I'll respect Rule 0. If the DM doesn't want to allow it that's fine. However the way the Gate spell is written seems to permit such things. Also Dragon/Dungeon/Polyhedron has just put out a massive 3 mag campaign predicated on the whole idea, so it's only reasonable that players who read such things might get their own ideas. Assuming that a DM would allow it, how would such magic affect warfare? >> Now it's true that for powerful empires or daring groups, it might be worth the shot. But think of it. There has been no such events in the history of mystara so far. If such tactics could have been used, they would have been used, and reported as such by historians. << I'm not sure I agree entirely with this. Someone brought up yesterday the Alphers gating in airships around Alpha in Norwold (form M2 IIRC). That would be a good cannon example. Ierendi has an Ethereal staging area. I'm not sure that their fire elemental friends would take kindly to massive troop movements through there however, but the way station does exist. The MA IIRC has a group of Effreet living in the Arch of Fire in Norwold which might suggest that incursions can and do happen on Mystara (in large scale). >> I think that what gives Mystara its particular flavour is (among other things) the fact that although its an heroic fantasy world, it remains plausible. of course there are magic spells that could shatter mountains and lift flying cities, but they are not common knowledge. Take the Princess Ark for example. It is a remarkable magical item, but it is unique. << Well, I'll look at this from another view point. If you have a spell (like Gate) that allows PCs to open up doors across planar boundries, then why would NPCs *not* use it as well. To me this seems implausable. Having said that, with regard to the Gate spell we are talking (in 3E) about 17th to 20th level casters only. Not everybody... and not every nation, is going to be able to field these kind of folks. So I don't see this as something that would run rampant across the world. On the other hand, large (and magically powerful) nations like Alphatia and Thyatis should be able to open up a few gates here and there. >> mingling with space (magical and instaneous transportation) is also mingling with time...and i don't see the Hierarch of that sphere allowing such ways. << Again, if you allow the PCs to do such things on occasion, then why prevent NPCs from doing the same? >> As i said before, i would advise DM to render armies transportation through a gate so costly or so dangerous that conventionnal ways would be far more economic and far more efficient. << Ahh...! But just because something is dangerous (and planar travel should be) doesn't mean that they won't try it. In fact if danger is involved then it sounds like a job for... the PCs! >> I also read in a Forgotten realm supplement about a spell which prevent any magical intrusion. I assume that most capitals or cities have been made "intrusion resistant"... << I totally agree here. This makes for great adventure ideas as well. Perhaps PCs must find an artifact to protect their city, or they may need to sabotage one that the enemy holds in order to facilitate a quick invasion. Or they may need to protect their own artifact from enemy attack. Perhaps as you suggest (and as I have in previous posts) there are ways to protect your cities and other strategic areas from attack. That just means that their are 'Gate Dead' areas. Certianly entire continents could not be protected in such ways... for if that were the case then the Gate spell wouldn't work anywhere for anyone. >> One last example comes to my mind. It required the full might of several immortals to convey a large number of alphatians to the HW when the doomsday weapon destroyed the alphatian continent. I don't like the idea of mortals having such a power. << I think we're comparing apples and oranges here. First of all gates aren't allowed in the HW. There's the little matter of the World Shield ore. So mortals would never be allowed to have this kind of power anyway. Second of all, the Immortals did a lot more than just move people. They recreated the Alpher continent, they made it float, and they brought a lot of people back to life (not just moving them). All of these things are clearly beyond mortal powers (at least to the extent that we're talking about here). Just taking Gate as an example, in order to move the number of people I mentioned before (~1000 per casting let's say) you're going to need a very organized group. Lots of training will be involved in making these kind of movements possible. Gates are only open for so long and if you're not organized, you're not going to make it through in time. Moving refugees or evacuating a city should be totally different than moving a group of highly trained professional troops. However, I for one, don't think that this kind of activity is beyond the mortal capability. And I certianly think that large nations such as Thyatis and Alphatia could make use of these tactics. -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 10:58:47 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Planar Warfare Part 2: Staging areas > One way around it, is to secretly create a pernament Portal, in which case > tons of troops could infiltrate the area. Like Feistman's and Kurtz's war > with another planet. Yeah the Riftwar Saga (by Raymond E Feist) does something very similar. In this case the invaders set up magical items on both planes. Essentially a permanent gate between worlds. In that case however once the gate was closed there was no guarentee that they could open it up to the same location again. Something similar might work on Mystara. Perhaps old Blackmoor devices, or Taymoran, or Nithian devices might connect areas of the planet together. If such artifacts exist then they would certianly be prized for their strategic uses. -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:48:40 +0200 From: Daniel Mayer Subject: Re: Planar Warfare Part 2: Staging areas Destrynions' Charta, 876 AC ------ # 1 A life is worth another life. #2 In times of war, all participating parties remember the life's worth. #3 Torture is allowed on non-magic users only for retrieving the wanted information. Torture for fun is to be regarded as ignorance of this charta. Magic-users captured are considered first-class (noble) captives and have to be proposed for ransom. If declined, any measures may be taken. #4 Using mass-stealth magics is considered ignorance of #1 and #2. Any applicable warleader is considered common enemy of all parties signing this charta. #5 Usage of mass-teleporting or gates to move troops directly into places where the war is not supported, like peaceful cities e.g., is considered ignorance of #1 and #2. Any applicable warleader is considered common enemy of all parties signing this charta. #6 The standard Rules For Tactical Usage Of Magic are applicable. Signed by the following ambassadors represantative for their government, Thyatis Alphatia Glantri Vestland ..... ---------- Whatever the excact wording may be. Shouldn't there exist such a charta? Else Magicians like Bargle may had an easy way in conquering towns and hole regions... It has to be a remi like the nuclear bombs: Many have the ability to use it, but *if*, the own land is surely to be destroyed completely. -> mass-destruction of non-troops or the really, really, really bad way to kill thousands of unaware troops (by placing invisible death clouds all around a fortress during night while at peaceful terms...) should be forbidden with the "hanging sword" of a real punch even by those having nothing to do with the war. ? Greetings, Daniel Mayer, aka Laren Nightmaster, roaming planes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 21:35:17 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?sturm?= Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[MYSTARA]_Planar_Warfare_Part_2:_Staging_areas?= >> From : Mystara RPG Discussion=0D=0ATo : MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WI= ZARDS.COM=0D=0A> Whatever the excact wording may be. Shouldn't there exis= t such a charta?=0D=0A> Else Magicians like Bargle may had an easy way in= conquering towns and hole=0D=0A> regions...=0D=0A> It has to be a remi l= ike the nuclear bombs: Many have the ability to use it,=0D=0A> but *if*, = the own land is surely to be destroyed completely.=0D=0A> -> mass-destruc= tion of non-troops or the really, really, really bad way to=0D=0A> kill t= housands of unaware troops (by placing invisible death clouds all=0D=0A> = around a fortress during night while at peaceful terms...) should be=0D=0A= > forbidden with the "hanging sword" of a real punch even by those having= =0D=0A> nothing to do with the war.=0D=0A=0D=0AHello to all,=0D=0Aas a Dm= of a Mystaran campaign I limited the use of Gate making its set up very = difficult. To estabilish a Gate from A to B IMC wizards have to perform a= ritual not just on the point A, but on the point B too, releasing A LOT = of magical energy in the meantime... Usually the most powerful wizards of= every nation scan their territories with magical means for such occurenc= es, so it's very difficult to create a Gate without the enemy knowing, pa= rticullary in times of war... But Gates IMC exists for civilian use in ma= ny places, for example among the most important alphatian towns...=0D=0Ab= ye=0D=0AFrancesco ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 00:05:55 +0200 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: Re: Planar Warfare , allowed or not allowed? you are right in many ways. let me just explain why: I have only played with OD&D rules and i just added most of the AD&D1st and 2nd edition spells, plus all dragon mag spells (and there were many). Thus i never read the 3rd edition rules, hence my ignorance of the effects depicted there. Thanks for the input though John. Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. Personal homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Calvin" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Planar Warfare , allowed or not allowed? > First of all, let me say that this is a great discussion going on. Second of > all let me say that the purpose of starting such a discussion was to 1) explore > how some of the more powerful magical spells (and Gate as described in 3E > certianly seems to be powerful) would affect warfare, and 2) how could such > magical changes to the ways wars are fought generate adventuring opportunities > for the PCs (which is what this should all be about anyway). > > >> > I don't think that a DM should allow whole armies to be gated from one place > to another, just by the casting of a single spell. > The cost of the material or their availability should be so great to prevent > any frivolous casting. > << > > I'll respect Rule 0. If the DM doesn't want to allow it that's fine. However > the way the Gate spell is written seems to permit such things. Also > Dragon/Dungeon/Polyhedron has just put out a massive 3 mag campaign predicated > on the whole idea, so it's only reasonable that players who read such things > might get their own ideas. > Assuming that a DM would allow it, how would such magic affect warfare? > > >> > Now it's true that for powerful empires or daring groups, it might be worth > the shot. But think of it. There has been no such events in the history of > mystara so far. If such tactics could have been used, they would have been > used, and reported as such by historians. > << > > I'm not sure I agree entirely with this. Someone brought up yesterday the > Alphers gating in airships around Alpha in Norwold (form M2 IIRC). That would > be a good cannon example. Ierendi has an Ethereal staging area. I'm not sure > that their fire elemental friends would take kindly to massive troop movements > through there however, but the way station does exist. The MA IIRC has a group > of Effreet living in the Arch of Fire in Norwold which might suggest that > incursions can and do happen on Mystara (in large scale). > > >> > I think that what gives Mystara its particular flavour is (among other > things) the fact that although its an heroic fantasy world, it remains > plausible. of course there are magic spells that could shatter mountains and > lift flying cities, but they are not common knowledge. Take the Princess Ark > for example. It is a remarkable magical item, but it is unique. > << > > Well, I'll look at this from another view point. If you have a spell (like > Gate) that allows PCs to open up doors across planar boundries, then why would > NPCs *not* use it as well. To me this seems implausable. Having said that, > with regard to the Gate spell we are talking (in 3E) about 17th to 20th level > casters only. Not everybody... and not every nation, is going to be able to > field these kind of folks. So I don't see this as something that would run > rampant across the world. On the other hand, large (and magically powerful) > nations like Alphatia and Thyatis should be able to open up a few gates here > and there. > > >> > mingling with space (magical and instaneous transportation) is also mingling > with time...and i don't see the Hierarch of that sphere allowing such ways. > << > > Again, if you allow the PCs to do such things on occasion, then why prevent > NPCs from doing the same? > > >> > As i said before, i would advise DM to render armies transportation through > a gate so costly or so dangerous that conventionnal ways would be far more > economic and far more efficient. > << > > Ahh...! But just because something is dangerous (and planar travel should be) > doesn't mean that they won't try it. In fact if danger is involved then it > sounds like a job for... the PCs! > > >> > I also read in a Forgotten realm supplement about a spell which prevent any > magical intrusion. I assume that most capitals or cities have been made > "intrusion resistant"... > << > > I totally agree here. This makes for great adventure ideas as well. Perhaps > PCs must find an artifact to protect their city, or they may need to sabotage > one that the enemy holds in order to facilitate a quick invasion. Or they may > need to protect their own artifact from enemy attack. > Perhaps as you suggest (and as I have in previous posts) there are ways to > protect your cities and other strategic areas from attack. That just means > that their are 'Gate Dead' areas. Certianly entire continents could not be > protected in such ways... for if that were the case then the Gate spell > wouldn't work anywhere for anyone. > > >> > One last example comes to my mind. It required the full might of several > immortals to convey a large number of alphatians to the HW when the doomsday > weapon destroyed the alphatian continent. I don't like the idea of mortals > having such a power. > << > > I think we're comparing apples and oranges here. First of all gates aren't > allowed in the HW. There's the little matter of the World Shield ore. So > mortals would never be allowed to have this kind of power anyway. Second of > all, the Immortals did a lot more than just move people. They recreated the > Alpher continent, they made it float, and they brought a lot of people back to > life (not just moving them). All of these things are clearly beyond mortal > powers (at least to the extent that we're talking about here). > > Just taking Gate as an example, in order to move the number of people I > mentioned before (~1000 per casting let's say) you're going to need a very > organized group. Lots of training will be involved in making these kind of > movements possible. Gates are only open for so long and if you're not > organized, you're not going to make it through in time. Moving refugees or > evacuating a city should be totally different than moving a group of highly > trained professional troops. However, I for one, don't think that this kind of > activity is beyond the mortal capability. And I certianly think that large > nations such as Thyatis and Alphatia could make use of these tactics. > > -John > > ===== > Rule #85. > I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align > the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the > moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the > button." > > from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 8 Jul 2003 to 9 Jul 2003 (#2003-173) **************************************************************