Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 17 Jan 2003 to 18 Jan 2003 (#2003-19) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 19/01/2003, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 13 messages totalling 649 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Zeitgeist Sneak Preview for the Mystara List!!! (2) 2. Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor (10) 3. D20 supplements and the Mystara Mythos ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 14:18:43 +0100 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Zeitgeist Sneak Preview for the Mystara List!!! It wasn't obvious from your announcement whether you'd like private or = public feedback, but since Blackmoor already has some relevance for = "current day" Mystara, I'm posting to the public forum. Geoff, are you ok with discussing Blackmoor on this forum, especially if = it doesn't directly pertain to Mystara or OD&D? First of all, I'd like to thank you for sharing this advance preview = with us, I read it with great interest. Let me tell you where I'm coming = from, so you might have a greater understanding of my comments. I've = played D&D for about 17 years now, and, as it happens, one of the first = products I got was the Blackmoor series of adventures (DA1-4). I have = played through the entire series twice, played some of the adventures = more than that, and fiddled a little with a Blackmoor campaign that = never got anywhere, since the original source material was, shall we = say, too brief in covering a vast area. In spite of forays into 2nd = Edition AD&D, I have always preferred the old D&D rules, and I have no = intention of venturing into 3rd Edition. But back to the sneak = preview... As I understand it, this piece is to be part of a single sourcebook, and = I don't know whether it is the "complete Peshwah", or you plan to = elaborate on some things, but, for the purpose of this commentary, I = will assume that it's complete. I won't list the typos and such (mostly = because I forgot to write them down as I read), but there were a few. I will look at each section as I offer feedback. Physiology: A bit short, but I guess that is to be expected. I have a few specific = comments: -Do you plan on having some sort of size comparison chart for various = races? It would be nice to have a specific average height and weight, = rather than "shorter and stockier." -I am surprised that the positive ability score modifier would be for = Charisma, as the Peshwah seem very physically oriented. Also, I might = argue against Intelligence equating academics, but I guess that's = another discussion entirely... -It's not nice to tease people with references such as "Afridhian Combat = Whistles"! ;) Society: I would have liked to see a lot more about the "peshwahan way of life", = other than "they are nomadic horselords and some of them are farmers." = Topics such as typical dwellings, peculiar customs (marriage customs?), = importance of family, laws, or military make-up would have made for a = more interesting and informative read. One thing that I find sorely lacking is, at the very least, names and = brief descriptions of important persons in each Horseclan. Even such a = brief note as "the honourable and wise leader of ** is **, respected by = all peshwah" would have been nice. For some clans we have a name, but = know nothing of their personality or ambitions, and some clans have = nothing in the way of important persons. Some specific comments: -Are the Homett the clerics of the Peshwah, and do we get more details = about the augury bones? -The Bortai clan, as a name, sounds close to the Bortak clan of the = Ethengar Khanates of Mystara. I take it this comes from shared RW = origins, rather than an informal link to the Mystara line? (Not that = fans of Mystara won't make the link between the Peshwah of Blackmoor and = the Ethengarians of Mystara regardless of any such formal or informal = links.) -I love the Qulaam and the idea of trained dire weasels! I take it that = the later "Peshwah's Horse" sidebar can be applied to dire weasels = without any problems, or are they not intended to have the same link? = Perhaps a note to either effect would be in order? -From DA3: City of the Gods I remember that the Peshwah had lost most of = their traditional grazing lands to the Afridhi, and that the Eastern Hak = could barely support the current population during the winter months, = when they were forced to abandon the High Hak. Are these ideas that have = been dropped? If not, doesn't this deserve mention? -Population numbers are lacking and missed. Religion: Interesting and pretty thorough. A few comments: -How long ago is it that Hadeen fell? I take it, it is within a = lifetime? I for one would like to know what alignments his clerics = favored and what domains he used to grant, for the purposes of either = adventures in another time period or former followers of Hadeen. New Feats: I have little to say about the rules themselves, since I'm not using 3rd = Edition, but one thing seems to me to need to be expanded upon: -Horse Bonded. It isn't clear whether a Peshwah's horse is a unique = mount, so that, if it dies, you have permanently lost your special = mount. If not, then it seems more than strange that the new horse you = pick up immediately gain all the bonuses the old one had, simply because = you are of the right level. If it is unique, then the loss of the mount = is an extremely serious blow to your character, destroying a strong feat = completely. One suggestion could be that a new horse starts at level 1 = and needs intense training (not adventuring and not training any other = skills/whatever) with its master for a set period of time (a week, a = month, whatever...) to gain a level, up to the level of its master. New Equipment: I don't have a lot of comments here, not knowing what to compare it = with, but surely that isn't a sickle mace depicted after that = description? New Creatures: I take it dire weasels are already described in a monster manual of some = kind? (Yeah, I like those trained dire weasels.) I think that the light steppes charger has been toned down too much = compared to the heavy one. The only advantage the light charger has over = the heavy is an increased movement rate. I would think that the light = charger would have superior Dexterity and perhaps a superior skill of = some kind. All in all I found this sneak preview to be very interesting, both as a = view into your upcoming Blackmoor product (which might become the first = D&D product I will buy in years) and as an unofficial expansion of = Mystara (which needs a bit of work to be consistent with that campaign = world). I may have offered several critical comments, but that's = because, like you I'm sure, I'd like to see the Blackmoor product to be = the best that it can be, and not because I'm overly critical of your = efforts. I hope the comments are useful to you. Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 09:30:00 -0500 From: Dustin Clingman Subject: Re: Zeitgeist Sneak Preview for the Mystara List!!! Thanks for the feedback! I did want public questions, especially from this group of hardcores. If you guys like it, I figure, everyone will like it. I will try to reply to as many questions as I get. My replies are below. Dustin --- Dustin Clingman Zeitgeist Games www.zeitgeistgames.com //As I understand it, this piece is to be part of a single //sourcebook, and I don't know whether it is the "complete //Peshwah", or you plan to elaborate on some things... Actually this represents about 1/4 of what is currently written about the Peshwah. We will continue to develop the race depending on how things go in the sales dept. At this point though we have almost a splatbook of material for them. //Physiology: //A bit short, but I guess that is to be expected. I have a few //specific comments: //-Do you plan on having some sort of size comparison chart for //various races? It would be nice to have a specific average //height and weight, rather than "shorter and stockier." Yes we plan to have this. The races vary from the PHB in some ways. //-I am surprised that the positive ability score modifier //would be for Charisma, as the Peshwah seem very physically //oriented. Also, I might argue against Intelligence equating //academics, but I guess that's another discussion entirely... In 3rd Edition, Charisma is the attribute that all of the animal skills are linked to. That's why they are positive there. //-It's not nice to tease people with references such as //"Afridhian Combat Whistles"! ;) Hehehe, you ain't seen nothin' yet!! //Society: //I would have liked to see a lot more about the "peshwahan way //of life", other than "they are nomadic horselords and some of //them are farmers." Topics such as typical dwellings, peculiar //customs (marriage customs?), importance of family, laws, or //military make-up would have made for a more interesting and //informative read. Indeed, a lot of this material is finished, we may hold it off though so that the book is a reasonable size and hence, a reasonable price. The Blackmoor sourcebook is the first in a line of products. //One thing that I find sorely lacking is, at the very least, //names and brief descriptions of important persons in each //Horseclan. Even such a brief note as "the honourable and wise //leader of ** is **, respected by all peshwah" would have been //nice. For some clans we have a name, but know nothing of //their personality or ambitions, and some clans have nothing //in the way of important persons. Point well taken. Some of this is done, but wasn't listed. // //Some specific comments: //-Are the Homett the clerics of the Peshwah, and do we get //more details about the augury bones? It would probably be better to say that they are the "High" Clerics. There will be more info on the augury bones. Actually a really cool game mechanic. :) // //-The Bortai clan, as a name, sounds close to the Bortak clan //of the Ethengar Khanates of Mystara. I take it this comes //from shared RW origins, rather than an informal link to the //Mystara line? (Not that fans of Mystara won't make the link //between the Peshwah of Blackmoor and the Ethengarians of //Mystara regardless of any such formal or informal links.) Yes. // //-I love the Qulaam and the idea of trained dire weasels! I //take it that the later "Peshwah's Horse" sidebar can be //applied to dire weasels without any problems, or are they not //intended to have the same link? Perhaps a note to either //effect would be in order? They have the same links, but it's slightly different regarding the stats. Don't want to overpower them. Have to go back and clean that up. // //-From DA3: City of the Gods I remember that the Peshwah had //lost most of their traditional grazing lands to the Afridhi, //and that the Eastern Hak could barely support the current //population during the winter months, when they were forced to //abandon the High Hak. Are these ideas that have been dropped? //If not, doesn't this deserve mention? It's not completely dropped. We are expanding Blackmoor out into various times in it's history. At this point, they will have the listed lands and while survival is always a struggle, they are still able to manage. Additional help from the "Thonians" is also helping them out. That is likely to be mentioned in the splatbook. // //-Population numbers are lacking and missed. // Ok. //Religion: //Interesting and pretty thorough. A few comments: // //-How long ago is it that Hadeen fell? I take it, it is within //a lifetime? I for one would like to know what alignments his //clerics favored and what domains he used to grant, for the //purposes of either adventures in another time period or //former followers of Hadeen. Yes this stuff is finished, just not listed. Hadeen fell right at the beginning of the Afridhi invasion due to treachery. As it stands right now, that happenend about 100 years ago. His clerics favored Lawful Good because of his place in the Peshwah society. I believe the domains he granted were Good and War based on 3rd edition rules. //-Horse Bonded. It isn't clear whether a Peshwah's horse is a //unique mount, so that, if it dies, you have permanently lost //your special mount. If not, then it seems more than strange //that the new horse you pick up immediately gain all the //bonuses the old one had, simply because you are of the right //level. If it is unique, then the loss of the mount is an //extremely serious blow to your character, destroying a strong //feat completely. One suggestion could be that a new horse //starts at level 1 and needs intense training (not adventuring //and not training any other skills/whatever) with its master //for a set period of time (a week, a month, whatever...) to //gain a level, up to the level of its master. // Good point. The new horse doesn't gain all those benefits. We will clear that up. //New Equipment: //I don't have a lot of comments here, not knowing what to //compare it with, but surely that isn't a sickle mace depicted //after that description? // Yes it's basiclly a sickle mace. //All in all I found this sneak preview to be very interesting, //both as a view into your upcoming Blackmoor product (which //might become the first D&D product I will buy in years) and //as an unofficial expansion of Mystara (which needs a bit of //work to be consistent with that campaign world). I may have //offered several critical comments, but that's because, like //you I'm sure, I'd like to see the Blackmoor product to be the //best that it can be, and not because I'm overly critical of //your efforts. I hope the comments are useful to you. Indeed thanks for the comments! The Mystara corellation might be tough to manage..We will see when we get there. :) Dustin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 14:04:09 -0500 From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor Here I go and finally get around to rejoining the MML, and I find out I missed the preview of Blackmoor! Dustin, any chances of a re-post on that? Please? **************** James Mishler Freelance Writer and Troubleshooter Email: mystaros22@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 11:49:28 -0800 From: hammer_of_ulric Subject: Re: Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor The Word version is still there, but I couldn't download the pdf. If you want the Word version, I can e-mail it. Hammer of Ulric ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 14:04:51 -0600 From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor > Dustin, any chances of a re-post on that? Please? Dustin posted two links to the files of the previews. Here were his links: www.zeitgeistgames.com/Preview/PeshwahPreview.doc www.zeitgeistgames.com/Preview/PeshwahPreview.pdf I wished I had extra time to offer more feedback. But I'm feeling pretty good about this so far. I was curious though... I had just recently read on the KenzerCo boards that before Dave Arneson had his stroke Mr. Arneson had offered Blackmoor to David Kenzer. David Kenzer made a recent comment about reviving Greyhawk in his Garweeze Wurld under the Hackmaster rules. Not familiar with the rabidness of some Greyhawk fans, David replied that, rather than deal with the PR nightmare of pleasing Greyhawk fans, he might do a Hackmaster Mystara and Blackmoor instead. Still that was only an offhand remark, and not serious. Is there some overlap between what KenzerCo has the rights to and what Zeitgeist Games has the right to that might complicate the release of Blackmoor D20? After hearing the stories of how Kenzer bent WotC over the legal barrel because of the Dragon Magazine CD Archive fiasco and got all sorts of concessions (like the right to use the Dungeons and Dragons trademark on Kalamar products), I wouldn't want to see all of ZG's work be all for naught if they end up stepping on Kenzer's toes unintentionally and have Kenzer spank ZG hard. Eric Anondson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 16:03:54 -0500 From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor In a message dated 1/18/2003 3:04:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, xen@VISI.COM writes: << Is there some overlap between what KenzerCo has the rights to and what Zeitgeist Games has the right to that might complicate the release of Blackmoor D20? After hearing the stories of how Kenzer bent WotC over the legal barrel because of the Dragon Magazine CD Archive fiasco and got all sorts of concessions (like the right to use the Dungeons and Dragons trademark on Kalamar products), I wouldn't want to see all of ZG's work be all for naught if they end up stepping on Kenzer's toes unintentionally and have Kenzer spank ZG hard.>> My understanding of what happened with Blackmoor is that the rights reverted in total back to Mr. Arneson. Wizards of the Coast no longer has any rights to it, ergo they could not give those rights to Kenzer & Company. I could be wrong about that, though, but if the rights did revert, legally speaking, Blackmoor is no longer a "part" of Mystara, and even WotC couldn't mention it in any Mystara project they would do... let alone Kenzer & Company. James **************** James Mishler Freelance Writer and Troubleshooter Day Phone: (219) 926-1245 Cell Phone: (219) 617-6644 Email: mystaros22@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 16:05:22 -0500 From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor In a message dated 1/18/2003 3:04:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, xen@VISI.COM writes: > Here were his links: > www.zeitgeistgames.com/Preview/PeshwahPreview.doc > www.zeitgeistgames.com/Preview/PeshwahPreview.pdf Thanks! I downloaded the preview. Looks like a lot of stuff. I'll be going over it soon. James **************** James Mishler Freelance Writer and Troubleshooter Day Phone: (219) 926-1245 Cell Phone: (219) 617-6644 Email: mystaros22@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 15:41:30 -0600 From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor > My understanding of what happened with Blackmoor is that the rights > reverted in total back to Mr. Arneson. Wizards of the Coast no longer > has any rights to it, ergo they could not give those rights to Kenzer > & Company. I could be wrong about that, though, but if the rights did > revert, legally speaking, Blackmoor is no longer a "part" of Mystara, > and even WotC couldn't mention it in any Mystara project they would > do... let alone Kenzer & Company. The complication aren't necessarily with Arneson's Blackmoor, or even using the term "Blackmoor" which is sufficiently generic, but instead with references in Zeitgeist Game's Blackmoor D20 to anything Mystara/Known World, which WotC would have rights to give to Kenzer along with all of the old OD&D/AD&D modules that Kenzer grabbed. Maybe the issue comes down to Kenzer only having the right to use the material they got out of WotC with the Hackmaster system, and not D20... And while I don't stand to lose my shirt over the matter, I'd hate to see mistakes made over the confusing issue that is wrapped around this. Eric Anondson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 17:10:20 -0500 From: Dustin Clingman Subject: Re: Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor I saw a couple of posts, but once again here are the links to the .pdf and .doc http://www.zeitgeistgames.com/Preview/PeshwahPreview.pdf http://www.zeitgeistgames.com/Preview/PeshwahPreview.doc Dustin --- Dustin Clingman Zeitgeist Games www.zeitgeistgames.com //-----Original Message----- //From: Mystara RPG Discussion //[mailto:MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Magister Mystaros //Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 2:04 PM //To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM //Subject: [MYSTARA] Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor // // //Here I go and finally get around to rejoining the MML, and I //find out I missed the preview of Blackmoor! // //Dustin, any chances of a re-post on that? Please? // //**************** //James Mishler //Freelance Writer and Troubleshooter //Email: mystaros22@aol.com // //******************************************************************** //The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp //The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ //To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM //with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. // ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 17:21:07 -0500 From: Dustin Clingman Subject: Re: Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor Hi Eric //I was curious though... I had just recently read on the //KenzerCo boards that before Dave Arneson had his stroke Mr. //Arneson had offered Blackmoor to David Kenzer. Well first, Dave's stroke happened well over a year ago. He is doing fine now and made a full recovery from the stroke. He has been running games and writing of late. I read that post on the KenzerCo. Boards. offered doesn't mean contracted. We have been discussing a possible Hackmaster Blackmoor tie in. I am working on a proposal for a book that would tie in well with the Hackmaster world. Though I take the Blackmoor project seriously, I love Hackmaster and I love the comedic elements that it brings to gaming. Both Dave and I agree that we want to work on stuff with them. At this point Zeitgeist Games owns the rights to the Blackmoor name and they would be licensing/co-developing the title or any other titles for Blackmoor. Intellectual Property is a funny thing. We claim rights to Blackmoor and I am sufficiently satisfied with the proof that I have been presented regarding this. If anyone thinks otherwise, they will sue us, I am sure. :) Dustin --- Dustin Clingman Zeitgeist Games, Inc. www.zeitgeistgames.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 17:26:16 -0500 From: Dustin Clingman Subject: Re: Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor //The complication aren't necessarily with Arneson's Blackmoor, //or even using the term "Blackmoor" which is sufficiently //generic, but instead with references in Zeitgeist Game's //Blackmoor D20 to anything Mystara/Known World, which WotC //would have rights to give to Kenzer along with all of the old //OD&D/AD&D modules that Kenzer grabbed. This is true, we aren't going to be able to make that tie in just yet. Perhaps we will in the future, but the hardcore Mystarans will have to help us along with these things in the interim. In fact, there might be some way that the great writers on this list could work with us(Zeitgeist) to help make a tie in that would satisfy the most hardcore Mystaran. I have a lot of respect for the work I have seen here and would certainly be interested in exploring this during the summer. Would anyone want to be involved with something like this if we got the ok from WoTC? Dustin --- Dustin Clingman Zeitgeist Games www.zeitgeistgames.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 17:47:18 -0500 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor In fact, there might be > some way that the great writers on this list could work with > us(Zeitgeist) to help make a tie in that would satisfy the most hardcore > Mystaran. I have a lot of respect for the work I have seen here and > would certainly be interested in exploring this during the summer. Would > anyone want to be involved with something like this if we got the ok > from WoTC? Maybe you should have asked who *wouldn't* like to be involved! I think that most of the active people on this list, myself included, would be interested in this, to some extent. Please keep us informed. Like someone else said in an earlier message, this Blackmoor book will probably be the 1st new D&D product that I buy in a long time! Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:44:43 -0500 From: David Knott Subject: Re: D20 supplements and the Mystara Mythos From: "Colin Davidson" > > I've been toying with locating elements of the Nyambe source book > (http://www.atlas-games.com/nyambe/) on the Southern continent of > Mystara or possibly in the Hollow World. It's a fine setting, and would > work well there. Wouldn't the Tangor region of the eastern continent (Skothar) be an even better fit? The Tanagoro originally came from there, even though the modern terrain there is no longer as suitable as it once was. The Hollow World Tanagoro are of course a nearly perfect match for the Shombe. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 17 Jan 2003 to 18 Jan 2003 (#2003-19) ***************************************************************