Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 18 Jan 2003 to 19 Jan 2003 (#2003-20) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 20/01/2003, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 22 messages totalling 691 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor (6) 2. Zeitgeist Sneak Preview for the Mystara List!!! (2) 3. Mega dungeons in Mystara (8) 4. Sleeping in Armor (5) 5. Identifying Magic Items ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 01:36:17 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor Dustin Clingman wrote: This is true, we aren't going to be able to make that tie in just yet. Perhaps we will in the future, but the hardcore Mystarans will have to help us along with these things in the interim. In fact, there might be some way that the great writers on this list could work with us(Zeitgeist) to help make a tie in that would satisfy the most hardcore Mystaran. I have a lot of respect for the work I have seen here and would certainly be interested in exploring this during the summer. Would anyone want to be involved with something like this if we got the ok from WoTC? As one of the other listers put it, I think you'd be better off asking who wouldn't want to be involved. :) You can count me in, certainly. Haavard might be a very good intermediary/contact person, due to his diligent work on the Blackmoor/Mystara website. His work there has actually refueled my own long dormant Blackmoor/Mystara yearnings, and has gotten me back to work on a couple of projects that I've had on the back burner for years. BTW, I really enjoyed the preview you posted. It was well done, and fits in very well with the previously published DA1-4 series, while adding a lot of interesting new elements. Thank you very much for the sneak preview! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 01:40:04 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor Magister Mystaros wrote: Here I go and finally get around to rejoining the MML, and I find out I missed the preview of Blackmoor! Welcome back, James! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 11:37:20 +0100 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Re: Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor Dustin Clingman wrote: > This is true, we aren't going to be able to make that tie in just yet. > Perhaps we will in the future, but the hardcore Mystarans will have to > help us along with these things in the interim. In fact, there might = be > some way that the great writers on this list could work with > us(Zeitgeist) to help make a tie in that would satisfy the most = hardcore > Mystaran. I have a lot of respect for the work I have seen here and > would certainly be interested in exploring this during the summer. = Would > anyone want to be involved with something like this if we got the ok > from WoTC? Let me just chime in and say who wouldn't? :) (Well, I would.) The thing = is, we're going to tie in Blackmoor with Mystara unofficially anyway = (I'm sure), so if we could be involved in an official tie in, why = wouldn't we? Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:59:03 -0500 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Zeitgeist Sneak Preview for the Mystara List!!! Jacob wrote: > It wasn't obvious from your announcement whether you'd like private or public feedback, but since Blackmoor already has some relevance for "current day" Mystara, I'm posting to the public forum. > > Geoff, are you ok with discussing Blackmoor on this forum, especially if it doesn't directly pertain to Mystara or OD&D? I see no reason why we *can't* discuss it here - in fact, I think we *should*! :-) Dustin, thank you for sharing this wonderful piece with us! I can't wait to read it! Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 16:29:45 -0500 From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor In a message dated 1/18/2003 4:41:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, xen@VISI.COM writes: > The complication aren't necessarily with Arneson's Blackmoor, or even > using the term "Blackmoor" which is sufficiently generic, but instead > with references in Zeitgeist Game's Blackmoor D20 to anything > Mystara/Known World, which WotC would have rights to give to Kenzer > along with all of the old OD&D/AD&D modules that Kenzer grabbed. Strictly speaking, Zeitgeist CANNOT mention Mystara in their Blackmoor products, unless such a deal was struck when the rights reverted back to Mr. Arneson. Though the two were connected in the Mystara setting as published, Zeitgeist (that is, Mr. Arneson) should only have gotten back the initial rights to Blackmoor. Again, I am unsure as to the status of that, so I could be wrong. WotC was VERY generaous with the deals they made with Mr. Gygax and Mr. Arneson, so potentially, Mystara could be mentioned in passing, though that would profit Zeitgeist not at all, save with us Mystara grognards. The situation is completely different with the Blackmoor of Greyhawk, as Greyhawk is still owned by WotC, and the Blackmoor as presented there is not the Blackmoor of Mr. Arneson, regardless of connections that fans might make. Now, should Kenzer actually do a Mystara setting, likely "Blackmoor" will not be mentioned, as the setting is not a WotC setting any more, legally speaking. > Maybe the issue comes down to Kenzer only having the right to use the > material they got out of WotC with the Hackmaster system, and not > D20... And while I don't stand to lose my shirt over the matter, I'd > hate to see mistakes made over the confusing issue that is > wrapped > around this. The issue is non-existent. Provided that the Product Identity is properly guarded in the Blackmoor D20 book, NO ONE can use "Blackmoor" as Zeitgeist designed it in ANY product, whether they ahve a license from WotC or not. Kenzer's license to use the old D&D/AD&D amterial, AFAIK, and I am fairly certain on this, extends only to the extent that they use it in a HackMAster product. They CANNOT use it in a D20 product, or an AD&D/D&D product, as those are separate licenses. It is like the difference between having a license to reproduce a movie on VHS, but not on DVD... So, provided the langauge in the Zeitgeist Blackmoor D20 book is proper concerning the nature of Product Identity versus Open Content, there is no problem with this... James **************** James Mishler Freelance Writer and Troubleshooter Email: mystaros22@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 16:31:53 -0500 From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor In a message dated 1/19/2003 4:40:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsmill@WANS.NET writes: > Welcome back, James! Heya Andrew, good to see you here? So... what have I missed? (^_^) **************** James Mishler Freelance Writer and Troubleshooter Day Phone: (219) 926-1245 Cell Phone: (219) 617-6644 Email: mystaros22@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:00:53 -0500 From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Drat! Missed the Preview of Blackmoor In a message dated 1/19/2003 4:29:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, mystaros22@AOL.COM writes: > The issue is non-existent. Provided that the Product Identity is properly guarded in the Blackmoor D20 book, NO ONE can use "Blackmoor" as Zeitgeist designed it in ANY product, whether they ahve a license from WotC or not. Kenzer's license to use the old D&D/AD&D amterial, AFAIK, and I am fairly certain on this, extends only to the extent that they use it in a HackMAster product. They CANNOT use it in a D20 product, or an AD&D/D&D product, as those are separate licenses. It is like the difference between having a license to reproduce a movie > on VHS, but not on DVD... Whoops. Bad sample of Capitalizationitis. Sorry if I seemed to be yelling there. Also, it looks like the dyslexia demon got me a few times, oto.. (^_^) James **************** James Mishler Freelance Writer and Troubleshooter Day Phone: (219) 926-1245 Cell Phone: (219) 617-6644 Email: mystaros22@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:44:57 +1300 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Zeitgeist Sneak Preview for the Mystara List!!! I haven't had the chance to read the whole preview yet but it does look good although it could use a bit of editing in some bits. I just had to comment on Jacobs point below though. > -Horse Bonded. It isn't clear whether a Peshwah's horse is a unique > mount, so that, if it dies, you have permanently lost your special > mount. If not, then it seems more than strange that the new horse you > pick up immediately gain all the bonuses the old one had, simply because > you are of the right level. If it is unique, then the loss of the mount > is an extremely serious blow to your character, destroying a strong feat > completely. One suggestion could be that a new horse starts at level 1 > and needs intense training (not adventuring and not training any other > skills/whatever) with its master for a set period of time (a week, a > month, whatever...) to gain a level, up to the level of its master. Now the Peshwah are horse people, so I assume that most horses are ridden by the Peshwah, so provided a replacment horse is of Peshwahan origin it will understand what the rider wants and therfore the rider will have a similar skill on it IMO. Just a thought. Chris. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 15:00:58 -0800 From: hammer_of_ulric Subject: Mega dungeons in Mystara Faerun has them (Undermountain), Greyhawk has them (Castle Greyhawk), Blackmoor has them (Castle Blackmoor). But where are the huge dungeons of Mystara? The manufactured underground sprawl that takes weeks to clear? Hammer of Ulric ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:17:46 +0100 From: Felix Holtschoppen Subject: Sleeping in Armor Hi all, today I had the problem that the fighter in my group wanted to sleep with his plate mail on, when camping in the wilderness. A look at the RC revealed that a plate mail "consists of numerous metal plates linked together by chain mesh, much like chain mail except that it has large metal plates reinforcing it", so the player argued, that he could take off the plates, leaving the chain mail on while sleeping. Since I couldn't find anything in the rules stating otherwise I ruled that this was possible with the exception of a wounded character not being able to regenerate any HPs lost due to the mail (and woolen shirt beneath) rubbing on the skin reopening any wounds & preventing them from healing in a natural (unmagical) way. For this session the rule was good enough. But IIRC there IS something in the rules about sleeping in Armor, isn't there? Does anybody know where to find it? Or has anybody any comments/house rules/suggestions for handling such things? Bye, Felix ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:35:11 +0100 From: Felix Holtschoppen Subject: Identifying Magic Items Hi, How do you people handle the problem of identifying the exact nature of magic items (and their selling)? I know there was some discussion some weeks ago about how to limit access to magical items and how you'd have to find someone who's interested in them and willing to pay enormous sums. My question concerns something slightly different: The 1.level MU spells in both OD&D and AD&D (named "Analyze" and "Identify" IIRC) reveal only vague information about the number of charges, the number of "pluses" in case of weapons & armor etc. AFAIK the only way to know this precisely is a "Slate of Identification" (and divine intervention of course) and event that cannot reveal the number of charges. I plan to have a slate of ident. in every magicians guildhouse in every big city, identifying an item costing a not too small amount of money. Does that sound terribly unreasonable? I'm not really convinced but do not know how else to provide a means for the PCs to get the desired info. Still, the problem remains how to "prove" to any possible buyer that the item really is what it is said to be. Let's say the PCs have a sword+2 and have a customer and so on. How can said customer know it isn't a sword +1 instead? Or that this wand of Magic Missiles does really have more than 10 charges left. Any suggestions? Thanx, Felix ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:52:39 -0500 From: Jeffrey Quinn Subject: Re: Sleeping in Armor Are you using 2nd Ed or 3rd? Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Felix Holtschoppen" To: Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 6:17 PM Subject: [MYSTARA] Sleeping in Armor > Hi all, > today I had the problem that the fighter in my group wanted to sleep with > his plate mail on, when camping in the wilderness. A look at the RC revealed > that a plate mail "consists of numerous metal plates linked together by > chain mesh, much like chain mail except that it has large metal plates > reinforcing it", so the player argued, that he could take off the plates, > leaving the chain mail on while sleeping. Since I couldn't find anything in > the rules stating otherwise I ruled that this was possible with the > exception of a wounded character not being able to regenerate any HPs lost > due to the mail (and woolen shirt beneath) rubbing on the skin reopening any > wounds & preventing them from healing in a natural (unmagical) way. For this > session the rule was good enough. > But IIRC there IS something in the rules about sleeping in Armor, isn't > there? > Does anybody know where to find it? Or has anybody any comments/house > rules/suggestions for handling such things? > Bye, > Felix > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:34:43 -0600 From: Eric Anondson Subject: Re: Mega dungeons in Mystara > Faerun has them (Undermountain), Greyhawk has them (Castle Greyhawk), > Blackmoor has them (Castle Blackmoor). > > But where are the huge dungeons of Mystara? > > The manufactured underground sprawl that takes weeks to clear? The one that popped in mind immediately, for some strange reason, is the undercity of Serraine. Eric Anondson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:37:34 -0800 From: Kar Ess Subject: Re: Sleeping in Armor In reality it's a one-piece outfit. If he takes off the plates it will take him weeks (if he has the skill) to put them back on. And it's not easy taking metal pieces apart, it's quite possible he will simply ruin his armor. KS --- Felix Holtschoppen wrote: > Hi all, > today I had the problem that the fighter in my group wanted to sleep > with > his plate mail on, when camping in the wilderness. A look at the RC > revealed > that a plate mail "consists of numerous metal plates linked together by > chain mesh, much like chain mail except that it has large metal plates > reinforcing it", so the player argued, that he could take off the > plates, > leaving the chain mail on while sleeping. Since I couldn't find anything > in > the rules stating otherwise I ruled that this was possible with the > exception of a wounded character not being able to regenerate any HPs > lost > due to the mail (and woolen shirt beneath) rubbing on the skin reopening > any > wounds & preventing them from healing in a natural (unmagical) way. For > this > session the rule was good enough. > But IIRC there IS something in the rules about sleeping in Armor, isn't > there? > Does anybody know where to find it? Or has anybody any comments/house > rules/suggestions for handling such things? > Bye, > Felix > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:51:42 -0500 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Mega dungeons in Mystara The Alphatian city of Citadel is a gigantic dungeon. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Anondson" To: Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 8:34 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Mega dungeons in Mystara > > Faerun has them (Undermountain), Greyhawk has them (Castle Greyhawk), > > Blackmoor has them (Castle Blackmoor). > > > > But where are the huge dungeons of Mystara? > > > > The manufactured underground sprawl that takes weeks to clear? > > The one that popped in mind immediately, for some strange reason, is > the undercity of Serraine. > > > Eric Anondson > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 18:19:42 -0800 From: Mike Harvey Subject: Re: Sleeping in Armor There's no chain underneath the plates -- they are alternating sections. Separating them would be like ripping clothing apart at the seams. As for sleeping in armor, I'd rule that (a) You cannot regain daily hp. (b) You sleep poorly and tend to awaken stiff and bruised. You suffer a fatigue penalty (-1 to attack and damage rolls) until you get a good night's rest. (c) You start to stink and attract vermin, with appropriate effects on charisma and social interactions. (d) In very hot weather you'll sweat and may not be able to sleep at all, in which case I'd apply a -4 fatigue penalty and you'll probably collapse after a couple days anyway. In cold weather, all that metal will get mighty cold... I might relax the fatigue penalty after a number of months if you wanna become a "mountain man" and make a habit of always sleeping in armor, but I'd increase the stink effects until enemies can smell you coming and shopkeepers refuse to let you enter their shop. All that aside, if you always attack characters at night without warning, you have to expect them to sleep in their armor. Also, even if it takes 10 minutes to put your armor on properly, I'd allow a character to slip into his chainmail shirt in a couple of rounds. I'd apply perhaps a -1 penalty to AC and to attack rolls, since you haven't fastened the straps and it flops around and gets in the way, but it's better than nothing. Mike -- Mike Harvey -- Beaverton, Oregon http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/ ICQ: 15446302 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:36:33 -0200 From: JJJ Subject: Re: Mega dungeons in Mystara > Faerun has them (Undermountain), Greyhawk has them (Castle Greyhawk), > Blackmoor has them (Castle Blackmoor). > > But where are the huge dungeons of Mystara? Denwarf-Urgon in Alphatia post-sinking, is described in WotI as a real big dungeon-crawl. I myself elaborated on it in my oldest campaign (the one which is running since 94!). The dungeon maps filled many pages, with almost 12 enormous dungeon levels only at the beggining. I remeber needing to put an arena on which there was spectral warriors who would fight with the Mystic of the group, as they entered the dungeon by about level 5, and after many, many, maaaaanyyyyy games were about 9th level, so the Mystic had to have his level duel... My greatest dungeon, so far... (wait, there was one on Molag city in Oerth... but that is another history :) ) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 18:33:20 -0800 From: Mike Harvey Subject: Re: Mega dungeons in Mystara > Faerun has them (Undermountain), Greyhawk has them (Castle Greyhawk), > Blackmoor has them (Castle Blackmoor). > > But where are the huge dungeons of Mystara? > > The manufactured underground sprawl that takes weeks to clear? Well, there are vast "natural" areas -- the caverns beneath the broken lands, the Shadow Elf caverns, Graakhalia... but those aren't really dungeons, and aren't exactly the type of dungeons you "clear". There's Rockhome of course, which includes lost cities. And the Orclands right next door, which surely are riddled with dungeons. Dwarves once conquered the Shires -- surely there are old dwarven delvings there? The Lost City (B4) is fairly extensive, as is Horror Under the Hill (B5), although nothing like the examples you cited. Thyatis has its sewers, as do most other cities. Really, I can only think of two: (1) Barimoor has built miles of tunnels beneath the sands of Ylaruam. (2) Monster Island in the New Alphatian Sea. Mike -- Mike Harvey -- Beaverton, Oregon http://members.dsl-only.net/~bing/ ICQ: 15446302 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:40:22 -0500 From: SteelAngel Subject: Re: Mega dungeons in Mystara On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, Dan Eustace wrote: > The Alphatian city of Citadel is a gigantic dungeon. The home of the shadow elves is almost completely unmapped :) As are the caves of rockhome! Ethan -- Kinard 210 Linux Guru Webmaster www.steelangel.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:12:16 -0500 From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Sleeping in Armor In a message dated 1/19/2003 6:17:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, holtschoppen@GMX.DE writes: > But IIRC there IS something in the rules about sleeping in Armor, isn't > there? > Does anybody know where to find it? Or has anybody any > comments/house > rules/suggestions for handling such things? I don't recall any rules in the RC about such things, but it has been a while. I would go with no HP healed, of course, plus have him roll against his Constitution with a penalty equal to the AC protection of the armor he is wearing. Thus, if he has a Con of 14, with plate giving an AC of 3 (a 6 point bonus) he would have to roll less than or equal to an 8 or suffer from fatigue. Increase the penalty by one for every night he does this, until he sleeps in his skivvies for a full night of rest. And indeed, plate mail cannot be easily "taken apart." It would take hours for a smith to do so, let alone a simple adventurer. James **************** James Mishler Freelance Writer and Troubleshooter Email: mystaros22@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:23:17 -0500 From: Magister Mystaros Subject: Re: Mega dungeons in Mystara In a message dated 1/19/2003 6:00:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, rogerdavid2002@AOL.COM writes: > But where are the huge dungeons of Mystara? > > The manufactured underground sprawl that takes weeks to > clear? Two words: Hollow World. It is, after all manufacturered. By the Immortals to be sure, but nonetheless... (^_^)That's the only published one that comes to mind. Though there are the Broken Lands and Shadow Elf lands as well. Not to mention Graakhalia (though they are nominally "good,") and Rockhome. I would say that there are a fair number of "Moria" style dwarven delves, long empty, in the mountains north of the Five Shires, as rogue dwarves settled there for some time 1600 years ago, or thereabouts. Probably all of the humanoid citadels in the Dwarfgate Mountains, north of Darokin, are similar, as well. Old Dwarf colonies that got claimed by humanoids, pre-Sardal Pass. Maybe even a failed dwarf delve or two in the mountains north of Thyatis. The gnomes, of course, have a lot of lost delves in the Northern reaches, and probably a few in closer lands as well, such as Karameikos. I'm sure that the original B2: Caves of Chaos would qualify. Even B1: In Search of the Unknown, as well. There are the caverns of Barimoor in Ylaruam. The Lost City. Probably several more similar to this under the sands. The Atruaghin Plateau is probably riddled with tunnels, if you allow an "Amerindian" version of the various tribal "wee-folk," good and evil, from North american native tales. The Blue Mountains, between Sind and Hule are also rife with tunnels, from millennia of humanoid occupation. Of course, you can always put an old ruin just about anywhere moderately distant from civilization. James **************** James Mishler Freelance Writer and Troubleshooter Email: mystaros22@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 08:31:46 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Piquer_Otero?= Subject: Re: Mega dungeons in Mystara > But where are the huge dungeons of Mystara? > > The manufactured underground sprawl that takes weeks to > clear? To other suggestions already given (Barimoor's complex is my favorite for an Undermountain-style dungeon), I would add Falun Caves in the Northern Reaches, especially when the Old Gnomish artifacts can give way to all sorts of classical dungeon weirdness. Andrés ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 18 Jan 2003 to 19 Jan 2003 (#2003-20) ***************************************************************