Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 5 Sep 2003 to 6 Sep 2003 (#2003-218) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 07/09/2003, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 8 messages totalling 483 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. (very long) Taymoran Timeline v. 2.2 (updated revision of Giampaolo's original) 2. Immortals and Avatars (5) 3. (very long) Taymoran Timeline v. 2.2 (updated revision of Giampaolo's original) (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 11:49:32 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: (very long) Taymoran Timeline v. 2.2 (updated revision of Giampaolo's original) > 2'200 BC: The Nantalian tribes are losing > ground to the Dunael. > Desperate, they ally themselves with the local Oltec > cities, who are in trouble as well. They form a new > population, known as Nithians. > << > > Where does this happen exactly? A later reference > seems to indicate that this > happens on the IoD. Yes, correct. I took this off the Etnography file so I forgot to mention it. > > >> > 2'000 BC: Thantalian and Trantalian tribes > begin their rise, > having reached bronze age technology. > The Nithians flee from the Isle of Dawn to nowadays > Ylaruam, under the guidance of the priesthood of > Nephthisi. > << > > This is actually very interesting (and not in a bad > way either ;) ). It would > suggest that 'Nithia' is not the birthplace of the > 'Nithians'. I have never exactly decided this. The Isle of Dawn is a crosspoint of many many races, it has always been. The ancestors of Lhomar used it as a leapground toward Davania and Skothar. The original population of Alphatia used it to move from Brun. Probably Oltecs used it in their move from Skothar to Brun too. I wanted to make some maps with the exact location of the various races through time, in order to understand WHERE they lived. At some point we have so many different human (and non-human) races around in the same places...there is room for everyone, especially since their numbers had to be few...anyway, I'll think about it. It's an interesting idea, to have Thotia as the center of the Nithian expansion, but the first Thotian cities seem to be the Doulakki built ones (like Trikelios), later conquered by the Nithians who were "returning" to the Isle of Dawn. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail: 6MB di spazio gratuito, 30MB per i tuoi allegati, l'antivirus, il filtro Anti-spam http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 07:14:43 -0700 From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: Immortals and Avatars Thanks for all your input everyone! So to sum it all up, does that mean that the "No Direct Action Against Mortals on the Prime" rule applies to an Immortal's Manifestation and Incorporeal Forms, as well as avatars? But it still does not answer why avatars are given the Immortal's combat abilities in the first place. Though they can't attack mortals, I guess we could assume that an avatar's combat abilities are used to defend itself from another enemy Immortal's avatars? And as John had earlier stated--- That only in mortal form can an Immortal physically act against a mortal on the Prime Plane *unless* the Immortal gets consent from the Hierarch Council about the direct action. Is this basically correct? Lancer Rodger Burns wrote: Ramses Ramirez wrote on September 05, 2003 5:34 PM: > > To correct my last sentence of my previous post I meant.. > > > > What is the point of an Immortal imbuing an avatar with combat > abilities if it CAN'T use them on the Prime Plane? Well, I'm not Aaron Allston, but here are a few possibilities: 1. Use of extra Mortal Identities. This is specifically referenced in the Mortal Identity rules: "In a campaign which uses the optional rules regarding avatars described below, Immortals can maintain several such identities simulaneously, if they wish." 2. Use of Immortal abilities in multiple locations outside the Prime. For a low-level Immortal, keeping an Avatar back on the homeplane while your primary persona goes off to explore the Dimension of Myth is a much cheaper way of shepherding the faithful than spending 250 PP on a Spell Generation artifact. 3. Use of Immortal abilities on the Prime, in ways allowed by the First Rule. There's quite likely a shortage of willing Immortal candidates willing to use Detect Immortal Magic on all those worlds on the Prime (after all, just for the Mystaran solar system itself you'd need to track Mystara, the Hollow World, Patera, possibly Matera, possibly Damocles/Asterius, and who knows what other outposts of intelligent life on Venus/Valerias, Mars/Vanya, et cetera...), so one Immortal split into twelve or so avatars might be called upon to multitask. Multiple avatars could also take Incorporeal Form for rapid scouting and dream control. (Okay, so with 720' flying speed and unlimited _teleport_ spells, speed isn't as much of an issue. Simultaneity may be... since it means that an Immortal can cause two or more individuals on opposite sides of the planet to share the same dream - and probably even allow the participants to *interact*.) (For an example of that, consider how it might be used in the Wrath timeline. The Immortal Alphatia learns that Eriadna has plans for a political marriage between Asteriela Torion and Eruul Zaar, and decides to meddle... by sending the two of them a simultaneous dream. She sends one avatar in Incorporeal Form to Sundsvall, and another to Helskir; she then sets up a strong romantically-flavored dream for each participant. Each of the participants is allowed control over their own actions in their own dream; the avatars know the full contents of both dreams, and use that knowledge to make sure that the 'Asteriela' in Eruul's dream says and does the same things as the Asteriela asleep in Sundsvall is actually doing, and vice versa. A few months later, when the diplomats finally conclude negotiations and allow the two to meet in the flesh, they *already know each other*. Quite well. Scary, ain't it? And that's one of the less drastic scenarios.) So overall, I'd say Avatars are quite useful. In fact, given some of the less subtle applications (spawn an extra nineteen Meteor Swarm casters and go crash someone's party!), I'm just as glad you can't use their abilities on the Prime. It'd just be sick. > Lancer "The best lack all conviction, While the worst are full of passionate intensity." - W.B. Yeats, "The Second Coming" Rodger Burns ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 12:46:16 -0400 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Immortals and Avatars > Thanks for all your input everyone! So to sum it all up, does that mean that the "No Direct Action Against Mortals on the Prime" rule applies to an Immortal's Manifestation and Incorporeal Forms, as well as avatars? Yes, this is correct. > But it still does not answer why avatars are given the Immortal's combat abilities in the first place. Though they can't attack mortals, I guess we could assume that an avatar's combat abilities are used to defend itself from another enemy Immortal's avatars? Avatars (as described in WotI) are different from mortal ID's. An immortal would have avatars to essentially be in 2 or more places at once (i.e. home plane, and astral, or 2 have a presence on an isolated outer plane). To interact w. mortals directly, an immortal needs to take in a mortal ID, which could be anything from a crazy old woman, to a potent warrior, to an ancient dragon. Whatever is needed to *subtly* accomplish their goals. > And as John had earlier stated--- That only in mortal form can an Immortal physically act against a mortal on the Prime Plane *unless* the Immortal gets consent from the Hierarch Council about the direct action. > Is this basically correct? Yes. Hope this clarifies it some. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 12:24:56 -0700 From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: Immortals and Avatars Dan Eustace wrote: > Avatars (as described in WotI) are different from mortal ID's. An immortal > would have avatars to essentially be in 2 or more places at once (i.e. home > plane, and astral, or 2 have a presence on an isolated outer plane). To > interact w. mortals directly, an immortal needs to take in a mortal ID, > which could be anything from a crazy old woman, to a potent warrior, to an > ancient dragon. Whatever is needed to *subtly* accomplish their goals. Ok.. I am almost clear on this... I promise. :) But ok.. If an avatar's main function is to allow the Immortal to be present in 2 or more places at once then why does an avatar have the Immortal's combat abilities? According to WoTI, the avatar will possess all the abilities of the Immortal save that it only has the TP given to it.. My question is why does an avatar have those combat abilities if it's only function is to act like an extra "eyes" and "ears" for the Immortal? What does it use its combat abilities for especially with the "no direct action" rule being in effect? Lancer The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:27:20 -0400 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Immortals and Avatars As long as it's not on the Prime, the immortal can fight whoever it wants to. The immortal may need its combat abilities in 3 different places, say. There could be hostile beings of various sorts, including plane travelling mortals, rival immortals, or who knows what to content with. As long as one of the avatars is not directly interfering with mortals on the Prime than it's OK. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ramses Ramirez" To: Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Immortals and Avatars > Dan Eustace wrote: > > > >Avatars (as described in WotI) are different from mortal ID's. An immortal > >would have avatars to essentially be in 2 or more places at once (i.e. home > >plane, and astral, or 2 have a presence on an isolated outer plane). To > >interact w. mortals directly, an immortal needs to take in a mortal ID, > >which could be anything from a crazy old woman, to a potent warrior, to an > >ancient dragon. Whatever is needed to *subtly* accomplish their goals. > > > Ok.. I am almost clear on this... I promise. :) But ok.. If an avatar's main function is to allow the Immortal to be present in 2 or more places at once then why does an avatar have the Immortal's combat abilities? > > According to WoTI, the avatar will possess all the abilities of the Immortal save that it only has the TP given to it.. My question is why does an avatar have those combat abilities if it's only function is to act like an extra "eyes" and "ears" for the Immortal? What does it use its combat abilities for especially with the "no direct action" rule being in effect? > > Lancer > > > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 19:35:53 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: (very long) Taymoran Timeline v. 2.2 (updated revision of Giampaolo's original) >> 2000 BC: Some geological instabilities destroy some peripherical areas of Taymora, sinking some areas and creating new islands and land masses. Most Taymoran cities survive, and the Kings foolishly continue their wars. 1750 BC: Geological disasters-volcanic eruptions and earthquakes, enhanced by the massive magical energies invoked by the warring sorcerers- sink most of the remaining Taymoran lands into the sea, and splinter off much of the rest south of the modern day lands of the Five Shires and the Atruaghin Clans. 1'720 BC: Land masses split further away, forming ten islands south of the Five Shires. Taymoran remnants attempt to take over Meditor elves in Colhador, are repelled. 1'700 BC: Cataclysms split land masses and ocean floods create islands; Meditor elves are left on the new-made Isles of Dread. << Ok, I have 2 comments. One about the timeline and the other concerning maps. Timeline first. As it stands now the 2 entries for 1720 and 1700 are a little confusing. It seems like they are both saying the same thing. Land masses are split apart and islands form. It might be interesting to make this one continous event, starting at 1720 and lasting for 20 years. 20 years of volcanoes and floods. Very nasty. Now for maps. I've looked on Thib's site for some maps, but wasn't able to find what I wanted. What I'm looking for is: 1) Map of Brun pre-2000BC (before any land shifting cataclysim takes place). 2) Map of Brun post-2000BC (after first Taymoran cataclysm). 3) Map of Brun post-1750BC According to the timeline above the last of the land shifting cataclysms would have ocured around 1720-1700BC leaving us with Brun as we know it. Does anybody have anything like this lying around on their hard disks, or know of these maps lying around the net. I could have sworn that I saw a map somewhere that showed the extent of the Taymoran empire, but can't remember where. It's probably on Thib's site somehwere, but I just can't find it. -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 19:56:26 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: (very long) Taymoran Timeline v. 2.2 (updated revision of Giampaolo's original) >> 2000 BC: Some geological instabilities destroy some peripherical areas of Taymora, sinking some areas and creating new islands and land masses. Most Taymoran cities survive, and the Kings foolishly continue their wars. 1750 BC: Geological disasters-volcanic eruptions and earthquakes, enhanced by the massive magical energies invoked by the warring sorcerers- sink most of the remaining Taymoran lands into the sea, and splinter off much of the rest south of the modern day lands of the Five Shires and the Atruaghin Clans. 1'720 BC: Land masses split further away, forming ten islands south of the Five Shires. Taymoran remnants attempt to take over Meditor elves in Colhador, are repelled. 1'700 BC: Cataclysms split land masses and ocean floods create islands; Meditor elves are left on the new-made Isles of Dread. << After re-reading this It seem like all 3 of the laste entries may be saying the same thing. That would mean 50 years of volcanoes and floods. >:-) Even better. Do you see these as seperate events, or one long continous event? -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 22:53:09 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Immortals and Avatars >> As long as it's not on the Prime, the immortal can fight whoever it wants to. The immortal may need its combat abilities in 3 different places, say. There could be hostile beings of various sorts, including plane travelling mortals, rival immortals, or who knows what to content with. As long as one of the avatars is not directly interfering with mortals on the Prime than it's OK. << Yup. I agree with this. The immortals are active throughout all the planes in the multiverse, even though they take a special interest in he Prime. If it's not the Prime, then anything goes. As far as avatars go, I've never actually considered bringing them onto the Prime. It just always seemed like that would be a violation of the 'Prime Directive' [Heh. Sorry, my Trekkiness is leaking through]. I don't think that (in the Mystaran multiverse at least) avatars were ever intended to walk the Prime. If they were we would see more evidence of it. Avatars ruling nations like Thyatis or Alphatia and such. That doesn't happen on Mystara. Of course having said that, it's your campaign. I've certianly toyed with the idea of removing that (somewhat) silly 'Prime Directive' rule, although I never have. Let us know how you finally decide to handle it. I'd like to hear how it goes. -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 5 Sep 2003 to 6 Sep 2003 (#2003-218) **************************************************************