Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 7 Sep 2003 to 8 Sep 2003 (#2003-220) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 09/09/2003, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 26 messages totalling 1355 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) (5) 2. Hollow World 3E (long) (3) 3. Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - (9) 4. Nithian Valley of Kings (was: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) 5. Imperialism and Conquest - A tentative guideline to BC 1000 (2) 6. Imperialism and Conquest - A tentative guideline to BC 1000 7. Nithian Valley of Kings (was: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) (2) 8. Nithian Valley of Kings (was: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) 9. Imperialism and Conquest - A tentative guideline to BC 1000 10. Nithian Valley of Kings (was: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:11:58 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) --- John Calvin wrote: > ALFHEIM > I'm not so sure about this. One of the theories for > the growth of the > Canolbarth was that the elves were "stealing water" > from the Ylaruam area. If > we assume that this is true, then why? One > explination might be that the elves > were persuaded to fight against the corrupted > Nithians by their patron > immortals. Remember that Nithia's corruption did > not happen over night, so > there would have been ample time for this sort of > magical warefare to ocure. > Once Nithia vanishes however, the elves forget all > about it. If I can jump into this discussion, I gotta say I really like this theory. The original sources imply that the stealing of Nithia's/Ylaruam's water was simply an unknown side effect of the elven weather alteration spells, but as elves have a much deeper understanding of both magic and nature than most other races, it would make more sense that they really knew what they were doing. Like you said, they may have forgotten about this after the destruction of Nithia (Due to the Spell of Oblivion or general elven whimsiness), or it may be that the forest by then had become so dependent on these sources of water that they did not risk to change the spell fearing they might damage their forest. > This may be one reason why maintaining the > Canolbarth is so hard for the > invading Shadow Elves in later years. They don't > really understand that the > magic that created the Canolbarth Forest was really > designed as a weapon. This > makes it hard for them to reproduce its effects. This also makes sense. I never really understood why the forest deteriorated so quickly though... Havard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:20:58 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) --- la Volpe skrev: > THE FALL OF NITHIA - A TENTATIVE GUIDELINE Giulio, I loved this overview of the region! An absolutely brilliant way of providing more undestanding of this really interesting period. > ALPHATIA > Alphatians have been around for 500 years. They were > the other great Empire around at > the time, and they had many and prolific contacts > with > the Nithians. They are the main > victims of the Spell of Oblivion, along with the > Thotians. Some problems arise > from this, like the afore-mentioned spreading of > lycanthropy. Without memories of Nithia, > or of how to control lycanthropy, Alphatia was beset > with a horrible crisis. A terrible > disease was infecting some of their most > respected and influential citizens. The Alphatians > tried their best to keep the disease > contained, but it spread quickly throughout their > lands and spilled over into the lands > of other nations. The Alphatians end to believe that > all the knowledges and > relations with Nithians were in fact held with the > Thotians. The Nithian Alphatian relations are really interesting. The Nithians were the ones who originally contacted the Alphatians and (knowingly or not) invited them to Mystara. Thinking about this, wouldnt it make more sense of the Spell of Oblivion worked more gradually. Perhaps the memory faded over one generation rather than immediately. Once the the next generation, having grown up with Nithia not being there, they just don't ask themselves what it was like before. On the other hand, Alphatians tend to live very long lives don't they.... Havard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:36:56 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Hollow World 3E (long) Rodger, first of all im intrigued by your idea of mixing the modern world and HW. I almost feel like steeling that idea some day. Now for more detailed comments: --- Rodger Burns wrote: > Because of the fact that the outer world is > 'modern', I get to ditch a few > of the existing HW quirks - most notably the general > difficulty in learning > magic and the list of unknown spells. The PCs have > gunpowder and modern > firearms; that's their edge. They don't *need* to be > the only ones in the > world who can cast _Sleep_, or discover several > levels in that nobody in the > HW can teach them _Fireball_. So the HW cultures IMC > are quite a bit more > magically inclined all around. (A few of the > cultures change drastically > IMC - for instance, the Icevale Elves are now > fire-worshippers, and have a > good helping of priests and sorcerors dedicated to > fire magic.) OTOH, the > drawbacks in the low technology level of the HW > cultures are going to be > played up as a counterbalance. I like this idea about the Icewalers. They need to be more detailed anyways. Worshipping fire makes sense when youre living in the deep and frosty lands anyways. The RW Vikings had a hard time accepting that the Christian Hell was a hot and fiery place. It sounded nice to them... Id love to hear more about what you've done to these guys. Also, please remove the Giant Elks from the Antalians! (Cant stand those) 3E has some decent rules for these. The Freeport Sorcebook introduces a new Feat : Exotic Weapon: Firearms which you have to have to use any such. Might be a good idea IYC aswell. > As for Cultural Weapons and Armor and Special > Compensations, I'm handling > those in terms of the Feat rules in 3E. Basically, > the Cultural Weapons and > Armor restrictions cause starting characters to > *lose* proficiency feats > normally granted to them by their class; in return, > they receive > cultural-specific feats. This is generally a > one-to-one tradeoff - Fighters > and Paladins, who lose more access to heavy weapons > and armor, generally get > more compensation feats than Sorcerors or Monks do. This makes sense. Ive been thinking about it myself too. Keep in mind that you may find better compensations using 3E than they did in OD&D. Giving everyone Thief-like skills might not be neccesary now that you have such a wide list to draw from. Mounted Archery might be a good compensation for the Jennite for instance.. Come to think of it, similar guidelines may be appropriate for the Known World aswell... > I've also rounded out the rest of the HW map with > cultures from all over, > just so that I can provide a pat answer if the > players ask a passing > seacaptain about the peoples of Jomphur, or decide > to take a wild trip over > to Aerical. About half of them have been snatched > wholeheartedly from KW > locations (and so won't be inflicted on the list), > but a few are new. I can > start posting descriptions/writeups if people are > interested. Definately, go right ahead! Havard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:08:46 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) > > From: John Calvin > >> > ALFHEIM > Situation: The elves had reached the Canolbarth Plains > around 800 BC, led by the elven > leader Mealiden. The Plains have by now become a > mighty forest, and Mealiden has long > since been acclaimed king of the elves. > Relation to Nithia: Non existant. Elves are secluded > in their forest and don't mingle > with the affairs of humans and do not care about them. > << > > I'm not so sure about this. One of the theories for the growth of the > Canolbarth was that the elves were "stealing water" from the Ylaruam area. If > we assume that this is true, then why? One explination might be that the elves > were persuaded to fight against the corrupted Nithians by their patron > immortals. Remember that Nithia's corruption did not happen over night, so > there would have been ample time for this sort of magical warefare to ocure. > Once Nithia vanishes however, the elves forget all about it. > > This may be one reason why maintaining the Canolbarth is so hard for the > invading Shadow Elves in later years. They don't really understand that the > magic that created the Canolbarth Forest was really designed as a weapon. This > makes it hard for them to reproduce its effects. > > In the Adventure section, the Alfheim Gaz also mentions a long forgotton Nithian tomb, complete with a Nithian Lich, inside of the Canolbarth. Before the elves arrived on the grassy plain that would one day become the Canolbarth, this could have been the earlier "Valley of the Kings". Where rich families burried their dead in mound tombs or hill sides, before NIthians got the monolithic building bug. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:41:31 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - Mealiden’s Migration could have been coerced by his immortal friend. The elves had settled near these areas before, and must have had contact with Nithians that lived in areas of the Canolbarth plains. When the Nithians started to practice entropic beliefs, Mealiden could have been asked by the current elves of the Traladaran areas to come and help fight off this great evil. Maybe the elven connection is more invasive, elves traveling along the Savage Coast, pushing Oltec tribes eastward to settle with the Neathar tribes in the River Nithia Valley. Elves then settling along the Taymora coastline then begin to trade their advanced knowledge to peoples there and in the Nithian valley. Both Taymor and Nithia have a great rise to power, and both end up being destroyed by immortals, sparing the elves that live all around them. One can almost put a Tolkienisque view to the elves guiding human nations to great power, only to have them be corrupted and then the elves have to s pank their bad children and start with the Nithians all over again, only to see it happen once more. This type of view would leave the elves with an almost, I am the right hand of the immortals attitude, but also with a great understanding that they can not lead another human civilization to greatness, without the risk of great corruption. So in turn, they help destroy Nithia by creating the drought, and they help burn all knowledge of the Nithians away from memory, and destroy their own records of how they did it, and just a remote thought of why they did it to be passed down by the king. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:02:01 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) > > From: la Volpe > > BROKEN LANDS > Already settled by humanoids. Probably no contact ever > with Nithians, and anyway > very little influence on the part of the Spell of > Oblivion. > I have to disagree, as per my earlier post, Nithians did move through the Canolbarth Plains, so they would have been brought close to the humanoids. Nithians did enslave many humanoids, and created Gnolls from some of their experiments. Thothian colonist must have brought some of the earlier breeding goblins to the Isle of Dawn, where they eventually become Duskers. Nithians probably even shared trading humanoids as slaves to Alphatians. How else would a bunch of humanoids without ship building experience get to the east into the Alphatian Empire? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:24:48 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) > > From: la Volpe > DAROKIN > Darokin is a mess. Orcs and humanoids may be found > everywhere, and Doulakki city > states like Akorros and Athenos are located in the > west. In the Selenica area, > some Traldar descended clans, cut off from their > brethren for centuries, are being > reached by Doulakki fleeing the Thyatian invaders and > some time later by more friendly > Kerendans. In the following centuries they will mingle > and become the ancestors of > modern Daros. > Possibly these city-states were originally Nithian Slave Trading posts. The only use by the Nithians was for capturing nearby humanoids and caravanning them back to Nithia. Because of the strength offered by the Nithians, nearby Doulakki in Darokin begin to rise in population. Early trade routes would have run straight through the Canolbarth Plains, when the elves arrive, they would have disrupted this trade route, and caused the Nithians to be taken over by the expanded populations of Doulakki and others as they leave the plains and are pushed into the Nithians. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:11:15 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - In my opinion, I always viewed Mealiden as the aggressive elf, as he was sort of the general and right hand of his long time friend. Other clans that split off of the earlier migrations could have called at any time to have protection offered from the west. There is not much explanation of why Mealiden led so many elves out of the Sylvan Realm; there was no discord or political rivalry. Mealiden was a friend of Illsundal, and remained so after his immortality. Mealiden could have been called by his cousins to help dispel great atrocities being caused by the Nithians. This may also explain the great attack led against Alfheim by the mage Iloyisus SP? He opened a gate that led many goblinoid creatures through, Duskers from Thothia? Could this mage be a Nithian that escaped to another plane, or time? Another Tolkienisque connection could be the Nithians’ love for breeding new creatures, could the Nithians have captured several clans of elves and warped them into the Gob lins and Hobgoblins of today? Explaining the great hatred amongst the elves and goblins? I mean they did cross gnomes and trolls to create gnolls. The Duskers could have been the final product, but left many mishaps escape on the way to their final product. Elves would let loose the worst of their aggressions on the Nithian populace. This may explain some of the apathy of the True Flower clan on the Great Escarpment to give help to anyone for the Thothians’ behalf. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:04:29 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - Some of this line could also explain a little more detail to the Minrothad-elven connection. There is a big gap in the history of Minrothad, and with so many survivors, it does not make much sense. There should be a ruin or two of Nithian design somewhere on the Islands. Could the elves story of leaving the mainland behind to help their separated cousins be just one big lie? Most likely the elves wanted to finish the job and built ships to eradicate any Nithian influence left on the islands. Even on the Savage Coast, the elves so desperately wanted to destroy Nithian influence that they decimated each other into a stone-age. Once the Spell of Oblivion took effect, the Savage Coast, Minrothad, Isle of Dawn, Shye, Alfheim, and coastal clans in Thyatis and Traladara all forgot why they were built up so militarily, and returned to the woods to delve into magic and clankeeping. This would also explain if the followers of Mealiden moved to and settled the Canolbarth for mi litary support of the other elven clans, why they stayed when Nithia fell. It would also help to explain the uneasy tensions between the Daro and elves during the Elf Wars so many years latter. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:22:22 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Nithian Valley of Kings (was: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) --- Chris Cherrington wrote: > In the Adventure section, the Alfheim Gaz also > mentions a long forgotton Nithian tomb, complete > with a Nithian Lich, inside of the Canolbarth. > Before the elves arrived on the grassy plain that > would one day become the Canolbarth, this could have > been the earlier "Valley of the Kings". Where rich > families burried their dead in mound tombs or hill > sides, before NIthians got the monolithic building > bug. Chris, I love this idea! This would be an excellent way to follow up the adventure of the Nithian Lich. Once the Lich himself is desposed of (or perhaps years later), the rest of the Valley is discovered filled with perilous dungeons, Nithian artifacts and ancient evils... Havard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:26:45 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - --- Chris Cherrington skrev: > In my opinion, I always viewed Mealiden as the > aggressive elf, as he was sort of the general and > right hand of his long time friend. Other clans > that split off of the earlier migrations could have > called at any time to have protection offered from > the west. There is not much explanation of why > Mealiden led so many elves out of the Sylvan Realm; > there was no discord or political rivalry. Mealiden > was a friend of Illsundal, and remained so after his > immortality. Mealiden could have been called by his > cousins to help dispel great atrocities being caused > by the Nithians. This may also explain the great > attack led against Alfheim by the mage Iloyisus SP? > He opened a gate that led many goblinoid creatures > through, Duskers from Thothia? Could this mage be a > Nithian that escaped to another plane, or time? > Another Tolkienisque connection could be the > Nithians’ love for breeding new creatures, could the > Nithians have captured several clans of elves and > warped them into the Goblins and Hobgoblins of > today? Explaining the great hatred amongst the > elves and goblins? I mean they did cross gnomes and > trolls to create gnolls. The Duskers could have > been the final product, but left many mishaps escape > on the way to their final product. Elves would let > loose the worst of their aggressions on the Nithian > populace. This may explain some of the apathy of > the True Flower clan on the Great Escarpment to give > help to anyone for the Thothians’ behalf. The ideas being spawned here have great potential! What exactly are Duskers? The reasons for Mealiden leaving the Sylvan realm may be many. While yours are valid, I also suspect that there were _alot_ more elves in the Sylvan realm back in those days. Why they are not there anymore when CM7 takes place is anyones guess. Perhaps later internal wars lead large groups to migrate to the midland forest, leaving the rest of be conquered by Moorkroft. Anyways, this is besides the main topic, but still interesting.. Your ideas with the True Flower clan are also interesting for further developing those elves... Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:34:08 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - --- Chris Cherrington skrev: > Some of this line could also explain a little more > detail to the Minrothad-elven connection. There is > a big gap in the history of Minrothad, and with so > many survivors, it does not make much sense. There > should be a ruin or two of Nithian design somewhere > on the Islands. Could the elves story of leaving > the mainland behind to help their separated cousins > be just one big lie? Most likely the elves wanted > to finish the job and built ships to eradicate any > Nithian influence left on the islands. Even on the > Savage Coast, the elves so desperately wanted to > destroy Nithian influence that they decimated each > other into a stone-age. Once the Spell of Oblivion > took effect, the Savage Coast, Minrothad, Isle of > Dawn, Shye, Alfheim, and coastal clans in Thyatis > and Traladara all forgot why they were built up so > militarily, and returned to the woods to delve into > magic and clankeeping. This would also explain if > the followers of Mealiden moved to and settled the > Canolbarth for military support of the other elven > clans, why they stayed when Nithia fell. It would > also help to explain the uneasy tensions between the > Daro and elves during the Elf Wars so many years > latter. Hmmm...this is a possibility. Having Nithian ruins on Minrothad is very appropriate and great for adventure ideas. OTOH, the Verdier, Meditor and even Vyalia clans are not neccesarily allied with the Alfheim Elves as they do not hail from Mealidens expedition, rather being descendants from an earlier migration directly from Grunland. As such, they may not share the same enemity for the Nithians as the Alfheimers would, although they may have been swayed into an alliance with the Alfheimers if they had reason to... Havard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:01:22 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - > > From: Havard Faanes > > The ideas being spawned here have great potential! > What exactly are Duskers? Duskers are goblins that were breed as a servitor race by ancient Nithians that opened several gates to other planes on the Isle of Dawn. They come in different sizes for their tasks, small, medium (normal sized), and large. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:36:49 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Imperialism and Conquest - A tentative guideline to BC 1000 Following along the lines for what Guilio did for BC 500, I am providing a tentative guideline for BC 1000. Hopefully this might help us flesh out the BC 500 timeline as well. I'm taking lots of the neat ideas for the BC 500 guideline proposed by Guilio, Chris Cherington, and Havard (and working backward) in order to put this together. This is just a first pass. Feel free to correct mistakes and elaborate. IMPERIALISM AND CONQUEST - A TENTATIVE GUIDELINE TO BC 1000 I'm not quite sure what to call this time period. It seems to be an age of imperialism and conquest so for now I'll stick to that. Brun is a virtual battleground as Nithians, Dwarves, and Orcs battle one another in an attempt to carve out their own empires. Other nations (like the Shires) are subjegated and their populace enslaved. Some of the Nithian holdings (Traladara) are lost to hoards of Gnolls. To make matters worse people are fleeing from the East where it is reported that an aggressive nation from another plane (Alphatians) is invading their territory. ALFHEIM This land is partially occupied by various bands of humanoid tribes, and partially by Nithian outposts. Perhaps the Nithians actually invite elves from the Sylvan Realm to colonize lands in Darokin, and help to neutralize the humanoid threat there. This might follow the Nithian pattern of the time (invite allies to settle in troubled areas - see Alphatia). As the corruption of Nithia expands the Minrothad Nithians may also ask their elven friends to help them fight the plague. Eventually the short lived humans succumb to the dark whisperings, but their elven allies in Canolbarth continue the fight (eventually leading to the magical attack that sucks water from present day Ylaraum). Another explination of why the elves eventually settle these lands could come from the Shires. Perhaps the elves are responding to a call for help from their brethren living among the hin. The elves arrive too late to help, but decide to avenge their fallen cousins and to wipe out the orcs in the area. Since the elves are long lived, so are their plans. They do not actually settle in Alfheim for another 200 years, but perhaps they launch numerous expiditions into the area ALPHATIA The Nithians, having had contact with the Alphatians for centuries (perhaps instigating inter-planar trade), invite the Alphatians to settle and conquer lands near their eastern frontier. The Alphatians initiate Landfall and begin their conquest (and destruction) of the native peoples inhabiting the area. This allows Nithia to focus their attention (and military might) on matters more close to home. ATRUAGHIN ? Not familiar enough with these territories. BROKEN LANDS Nearly 200 years previously the Great Hoard resurfaced in the Borken Lands. Since then the humanoids have been breeding profusely and have expanded their teritories in all directions. Hoards attack Rockhome but are driven back by Blystar III. Other hoards attack and conquer the shires. Yet other hoards roam across Darokin. These hoards have minor skirmishes with their Nithian and dwarven neighbors, and will eventually DAROKIN This contry is a battleground between the orcs and the Nithians. Elven and dwarven incursions into this land are also common. ETHENGAR ? Full of humanoids and barbarians? GLANTRI ? Full of humanoids? IERENDI The people here have been conquered by the expanding Nithian Empire. The Nithians come into conflict with the remnants of the lizardman kingdom already established in the area. KARAMEIKOS Gnolls (recently escaped from under Nithian control) have invaded these lands and are overrunning the native populace (the Traldar). This is the end of the City States, and the time sung about in the Song of Halav. The Traldar put up a good fight, but are eventually overcome. Many of them set sail for the southern continent in order to escape utter destruction. MINROTHAD This is a Nithian frontier colony, having been established for nearly 100 years. The humans and elves (Verdier, Meditor) get along fairly well, and the Nithians establish contact and trade with the Sylvan Realm through their elven neighbors. Although the Nithian core territories are beginning to suffer from corruption, the Minrothad colonies are fairly insulated from these effects. NITHIA This is the peak of Nithian culture. 100 years previously the Nithians colonize both Thothia and Minrothad (according to DotE). They have conquered peoples in what is now modern day Thyatis and Ierendi. However, Nithia is beginning to suffer from the effects of Corruption. The creation (and escape) of the gnolls can be seen as the earliest example of this. ROCKHOME The dwarves begin a period of moderate expansion. They fight mostly with their humanoid neighbors, either defending their homland or conquering humanoid territory. Dwarven and elven expiditions into Darokin may run afoul of one another and minor skirmishes might ocure over territory. The elves win out in the end. Rockhome and Nithia seem to be on good terms (based on their feelings toward the Ylari later on). SHIRES The shires are conquered by hoards of orcs, and the Realm of Othrong is formed. Over the next several hundred years control of the territory will pass back and forth between the orcs, and the hin, as well as ocasionally the dwarves. This is a nasty place to visit, and an even nastier place to live. The orcs of these lands build fortresses on their borders from which they can launch attacks into Karameikos (gnoll territory) and Rockhome. THYATIS The people living here are under direct rule of the Nithians. They suffer and mount attacks against the gnolls of Karameikos/Traldar. ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:21:33 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Imperialism and Conquest - A tentative guideline to BC 1000 > > From: John Calvin > > This is just a first pass. Feel free to correct mistakes and elaborate. > No problem.  > > ALFHEIM > This land is partially occupied by various bands of humanoid tribes, and > partially by Nithian outposts. > > Perhaps the Nithians actually invite elves from the Sylvan Realm to colonize > lands in Darokin, and help to neutralize the humanoid threat there. This might > follow the Nithian pattern of the time (invite allies to settle in troubled > areas - see Alphatia). As the corruption of Nithia expands the Minrothad > Nithians may also ask their elven friends to help them fight the plague. > Eventually the short lived humans succumb to the dark whisperings, but their > elven allies in Canolbarth continue the fight (eventually leading to the > magical attack that sucks water from present day Ylaraum). > > Another explination of why the elves eventually settle these lands could come > from the Shires. Perhaps the elves are responding to a call for help from > their brethren living among the hin. The elves arrive too late to help, but > decide to avenge their fallen cousins and to wipe out the orcs in the area. > Since the elves are long lived, so are their plans. They do not actually > settle in Alfheim for another 200 years, but perhaps they launch numerous > expiditions into the area > I tend to like the idea that elves settled this area as a militaristic objective. Their position to the Altan Teppes pass is very strategic. Perhaps they never really get to possess the area around Selinica, but they stop Nithian expansion into the west by land. As for the goblinoid question, the pacifist Gentle Folk would be a prime victim of Nithian experimentation, another sad legacy they would never wish to be revealed. > > ATRUAGHIN > ? Not familiar enough with these territories. > They are in the same trouble as the Traladarans and Hin. > BROKEN LANDS > Nearly 200 years previously the Great Hoard resurfaced in the Borken Lands. > Since then the humanoids have been breeding profusely and have expanded their > teritories in all directions. > Hoards attack Rockhome but are driven back by Blystar III. > Other hoards attack and conquer the shires. > Yet other hoards roam across Darokin. These hoards have minor skirmishes with > their Nithian and dwarven neighbors, and will eventually I like the idea that Nithians were stealing their humanoid neighbors for slavery in Alphatia. Once the Nithians leave, the Alphatians forget how the heck they got so many humanoids, and the humanoids not being left in check, populate very quickly for the great many hoards that spread into Ethengar, Atruaghin, Shires, Sind, Hule and the Northern Reaches. > > ROCKHOME > The dwarves begin a period of moderate expansion. They fight mostly with their > humanoid neighbors, either defending their homland or conquering humanoid > territory. Dwarven and elven expiditions into Darokin may run afoul of one > another and minor skirmishes might ocure over territory. The elves win out in > the end. > Rockhome and Nithia seem to be on good terms (based on their feelings toward > the Ylari later on). > I would say the Ust-Urt Valley is a rather more recent geological event, thus blocking off any communication from the Dwarves to Nithia. Possibly an epic campaign of were the dwarves delved to deep, and released a burrower that destroyed the mountains and created the valley, Mordiswerg’s original evil homeland? The dwarves being too superstitious do not investigate until many years later. Possibly the evil the dwarves released in this area is the evil that began the corruption of Nithia. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:09:24 -0700 From: Daniel Gioffre Subject: Re: Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - Havard, How do we know that the Vyalia came directly from Grunland? IIRC, they worship Mealiden, so I would have assumed that they were part of his group who left the Sylvan Realm but didn't make it to Alfheim (for some reason). -Dan ===== "Feanor began to love the Silmarils with a greedy love, and grudged the sight of them to all save to his father and his seven sons; he seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own." -J.R.R. Tolkien, Quenta Silmarillion __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:28:45 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Hollow World 3E (long) >> first of all im intrigued by your idea of mixing the modern world and HW. I almost feel like steeling that idea some day. << I agree with Havard. I like the idea as well... it's very Jules Vernes-ish. Post more details and I'd be happy to comment more. -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:34:30 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - >> How do we know that the Vyalia came directly from Grunland? IIRC, they worship Mealiden, so I would have assumed that they were part of his group who left the Sylvan Realm but didn't make it to Alfheim (for some reason). << If we assume that they were indeed part of Mealiden's group perhaps they were part of a two pronged attack against the Nithians. The first group, led by Mealiden moved into the Canolbarth area and secured a base there, while the second moved into the Thyatis area. Perhaps the goals of each of these groups was to rally the local human populations to their cause against the Nithians. It should have been easy for them to do since humans in these lands were probably already warring with Nithia (or trying to break free of her influence/domination). Once the SoO hits they forget about the military aspect of their mission and so their endeavor changes from that of invasion to that of colonization. Since the Nithinas leave quite a power vacuume in their absence this should be possible. -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:41:47 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Nithian Valley of Kings (was: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) >> > In the Adventure section, the Alfheim Gaz also > mentions a long forgotton Nithian tomb, complete > with a Nithian Lich, inside of the Canolbarth. > Before the elves arrived on the grassy plain that > would one day become the Canolbarth, this could have > been the earlier "Valley of the Kings". Where rich > families burried their dead in mound tombs or hill > sides, before NIthians got the monolithic building > bug. Chris, I love this idea! This would be an excellent way to follow up the adventure of the Nithian Lich. Once the Lich himself is desposed of (or perhaps years later), the rest of the Valley is discovered filled with perilous dungeons, Nithian artifacts and ancient evils... << I like this idea too. I wonder if the Lich can actually remember if he was Nithian. It might be that it could not. Over the years it might be able to piece together the reason for its memory loss. Once it does it might actually try and access some of the ancient Nithian artifacts in the area. This might turn into a great 'race against time' adventure. Once the PCs find out what the Lich and his minions are up to, they must rush to prevent it from unlocking the secrets of the past. In this way you could set up the Lich as a sort of counterpart to Barimoor. It controls a vast underground complex of agents, all of whom are trying to piece together information about ancient Nithia for their master. It's even possible that this Lich is one of Barimoors main rivals. And like Havard says, if the PCs defeat the Lich, they must still deal with all that cool (but dangerous) Nithian loot. *And* if the Lich is a rival of Barimoor, once it has been removed (by the PCs) Barimoor may be in a position to exert more power over the Known World. Muuhahahah! -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:21:22 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Nithian Valley of Kings (was: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) > > From: John Calvin > > And like Havard says, if the PCs defeat the Lich, they must still deal with all > that cool (but dangerous) Nithian loot. *And* if the Lich is a rival of > Barimoor, once it has been removed (by the PCs) Barimoor may be in a position > to exert more power over the Known World. Muuhahahah! DM laugh> > Perhaps Barimoor knows of the Lich's location and is counting on him to make the fisrt move in finding the other artifacts. Barimoor will then send in some adventurers to find the lich and have the adventurers dispose of the lich while he sends other agents to take the artifacts while the adventurers are keeping the lich occupied. Barimoor would not likely make a move into Alfheim with so many wards and gaurds and... elves. Barimoor will also not aproach the PC's directly, but send in a Selinician Merchant from Ylari. It could be a very dangerous game, as the lich makes it moves within the borders of Alfheim, and alerting the local Clanmaster of the evil shadow growing in his woods. He would most certainly call upon some local heores or the King for help. The PC's could be that help, hired by the Merchant, or even the agents stealing the artifacts. In any case it will be a race to stop the lich from hatching his evil plan, and possibly one day find more information on Barimoor. To add more evil DM treachery, have this happen near Clan Chossem, then players will think this is another Shadow Elf plot to uncover, and may rouse the Shadow Elves' curiosity as well. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:49:32 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - > > From: John Calvin > > If we assume that they were indeed part of Mealiden's group perhaps they were > part of a two pronged attack against the Nithians. The first group, led by > Mealiden moved into the Canolbarth area and secured a base there, while the > second moved into the Thyatis area. > I believe the Canolbarth colony was the second group, a couple of decades later. To play the epic well, the first colonies from Grunland would have helped the Taymoran civilization rise, compare to the stories of Morgoth in Tolkien. When the elves need help to fight off the evils of Taymora, they contact Mealiden and they send elves that build another nation to the north, the Nithians (ala Nummerian style). When the elves see the same corruption beginning with Nithia, they send for reinforcements with a second wave of elves with Mealiden at the front (think of him in the classic Gil-Galad style at the end of the Second Age fighting Sauron, and as the Galadriel style of building a forest home). > > Once the SoO hits they forget about the military aspect of their mission and so > their endeavor changes from that of invasion to that of colonization. Since > the Nithinas leave quite a power vacuume in their absence this should be > possible. > Agreed, this is also when they forget the awesome powers needed to produce the Canolbarth Forest. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:45:22 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Imperialism and Conquest - A tentative guideline to BC 1000 >> > From: John Calvin > ALFHEIM I tend to like the idea that elves settled this area as a militaristic objective. Their position to the Altan Teppes pass is very strategic. Perhaps they never really get to possess the area around Selinica, but they stop Nithian expansion into the west by land. << I like this idea, and I think that this is the kind of situation you would see around the end of this period/start of the next (ie around BC 500). I think that at the start the elven campaign would be against the humanoids in the area. In this case the Nithians might actually be allies of the elves. Only after the Nithian corruption begins to manifest itself (around BC 700 IIRC) would the Elves turn on their former allies. >> As for the goblinoid question, the pacifist Gentle Folk would be a prime victim of Nithian experimentation, another sad legacy they would never wish to be revealed. << I like this idea, but don't think that the timeline fits (then again I guess it just depends on your take of the Nithians). Would they perform these kinds of experiments on the elves before their corruption takes place? Or after? If after then this might be too early to blame of the Nithians. On the other hand, if this is one of the earlier manifestations of corruption (or just plane old Nithian nastyness), then this would be a good excuse to get the elves into the KW quickly and set up a conflict between elves and Nithians right away. Might be fun. >> > BROKEN LANDS > Nearly 200 years previously the Great Hoard resurfaced in the Borken Lands. > Since then the humanoids have been breeding profusely and have expanded their > teritories in all directions. > Hoards attack Rockhome but are driven back by Blystar III. > Other hoards attack and conquer the shires. > Yet other hoards roam across Darokin. These hoards have minor skirmishes with > their Nithian and dwarven neighbors, and will eventually I like the idea that Nithians were stealing their humanoid neighbors for slavery in Alphatia. Once the Nithians leave, the Alphatians forget how the heck they got so many humanoids, and the humanoids not being left in check, populate very quickly for the great many hoards that spread into Ethengar, Atruaghin, Shires, Sind, Hule and the Northern Reaches. << I like this idea too. They could also be engaged in a slave trade with the humanoids. Could the halfling populations outside of the KW (I'm thinking of those in Norwold for example) be attributed to Nithian slave trade? If so then perhaps the Nithians also bought slaves from the Othrong orcs and shipped them to far off colonies or ally states.. >> > ROCKHOME > The dwarves begin a period of moderate expansion. They fight mostly with their > humanoid neighbors, either defending their homland or conquering humanoid > territory. Dwarven and elven expiditions into Darokin may run afoul of one > another and minor skirmishes might ocure over territory. The elves win out in > the end. > Rockhome and Nithia seem to be on good terms (based on their feelings toward > the Ylari later on). > I would say the Ust-Urt Valley is a rather more recent geological event, thus blocking off any communication from the Dwarves to Nithia. Possibly an epic campaign of were the dwarves delved to deep, and released a burrower that destroyed the mountains and created the valley, Mordiswerg’s original evil homeland? The dwarves being too superstitious do not investigate until many years later. Possibly the evil the dwarves released in this area is the evil that began the corruption of Nithia. << I'm not sure about what you are trying to say here. Can you eloborate? -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:09:49 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: Nithian Valley of Kings (was: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) >> To add more evil DM treachery, have this happen near Clan Chossem, then players will think this is another Shadow Elf plot to uncover, and may rouse the Shadow Elves' curiosity as well. << Heh. This could also be true. ;) The Lich might be known to the Shadow Elves. In fact the Lich might actually help some of their number establish Alfheimer identities (in exchange for certian tasks performed). So once the PCs defeat the Lich, they may have some very irate Shadow Elves to deal with. -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:55:37 -0400 From: Christopher M Cherrington Subject: Re: Imperialism and Conquest - A tentative guideline to BC 1000 Behalf Of John Calvin << > I'm not sure about what you are trying to say here. Can you eloborate? >> Sorry, I did not have a map infront of me when I posted. Sardal Pass is heavily besieged by Humanoids, which is the main pass into the Nithian basin. This explains the canon material of no Nithian contact. The other pass would be in the Makkres Mountains through Vestland via the Castellan Pass. This area is east of Rockhome, and home to a large valley of broken lands and volcanoes. This area could have been heavily burrowed at one time to trade silver to the Antalians around Castellan. If the Nithians did not know of the Castellan pass to Nithia, the Antalians around Castellan would be hard to reach. The area in question would have also supplied a lot of materials for the gnomish kingdom as well. When the dwarven thralldom in the Makkres fell, so would the gnomes and Antalians in Vestland's area. This area is also very close to the Mordiswerg area as well. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:12:16 -0700 From: Rodger Burns Subject: Re: Hollow World 3E (long) Havard Faanes wrote on September 08, 2003 3:37 AM: > > Rodger, > > first of all im intrigued by your idea of mixing the > modern world and HW. I almost feel like steeling that > idea some day. Good to hear. The 'modern' element is non-Mystara though, so I definitely won't go into details about how such things as how Robert Peary's North Pole expedition in 1909 affects my campaign, or what the Tunguska event does to my campaign world. ^_^ Gotta keep some secrets... > > Now for more detailed comments: > > --- Rodger Burns wrote: > > > Because of the fact that the outer world is > > 'modern', I get to ditch a few > > of the existing HW quirks - most notably the general > > difficulty in learning > > magic and the list of unknown spells. The PCs have > > gunpowder and modern > > firearms; that's their edge. They don't *need* to be > > the only ones in the > > world who can cast _Sleep_, or discover several > > levels in that nobody in the > > HW can teach them _Fireball_. So the HW cultures IMC > > are quite a bit more > > magically inclined all around. (A few of the > > cultures change drastically > > IMC - for instance, the Icevale Elves are now > > fire-worshippers, and have a > > good helping of priests and sorcerors dedicated to > > fire magic.) OTOH, the > > drawbacks in the low technology level of the HW > > cultures are going to be > > played up as a counterbalance. > > I like this idea about the Icewalers. They need to be > more detailed anyways. Worshipping fire makes sense > when youre living in the deep and frosty lands > anyways. The RW Vikings had a hard time accepting that > the Christian Hell was a hot and fiery place. It > sounded nice to them... Id love to hear more about > what you've done to these guys. Also, please remove > the Giant Elks from the Antalians! (Cant stand those) Hrrmmm, well since I didn't know about Antalian Giant Elks in the first place, that'll be easy to fix. As for the Icevalers, I'll have to do some thinking about how canon HW-magic would affect their activities, but I'll see what I can come up with. (They definitely have clerics who can use the Fire domain.) I guess on a side note, I might as well drop some thoughts on how I think canon HW-magic restrictions work in 3E. The established "16 stat minimum to learn magic" doesn't sit well with me for 3E; it means that anyone capable of learning magic in the HW also has the capability to learn 6th-level spells, at least eventually. Or in other words, casters are rare but the ones who can cast are all *really good* at it. Given my druthers, I'd prefer to instead modify the 3E rules for maximum spell level usable from the standard "10+spell level" in the appropriate casting attribute to 13+spell level. (Said number's carefully chosen, BTW - it allows a character with a 16 in their casting attribute the chance to get to Level 10 before running into any trouble. Set the bar any higher, and PC spellcasters are going to inevitably run into problems with boosting their casting stat high enough to use their best spells. Using powerful magics in the HW should be tough, but not impossible.) All other rules - saves, caster level, and the rest - remain the same. But since the village Adept now needs to have a 14 Wisdom minimum just to cast a simple _Cure Light Wounds_, the pool of potential candidates for the position drops dramatically. Unusable spells and unknown spells is a bit trickier, and something I'll look at later on. The expanded spell list of 3E creates some issues that need to be looked at, and the way in which the Spell of Preservation's effects completely nuke a few schools of magic is a play issue. (*Pity* the specialist conjuror or enchanter who gets trapped in the Hollow World... and the 3.5E Druid loses *all* his spontaneous casting ability.) So I may be doing some bending here, at least IMC. (snip Firearms) > > > As for Cultural Weapons and Armor and Special > > Compensations, I'm handling > > those in terms of the Feat rules in 3E. Basically, > > the Cultural Weapons and > > Armor restrictions cause starting characters to > > *lose* proficiency feats > > normally granted to them by their class; in return, > > they receive > > cultural-specific feats. This is generally a > > one-to-one tradeoff - Fighters > > and Paladins, who lose more access to heavy weapons > > and armor, generally get > > more compensation feats than Sorcerors or Monks do. > > This makes sense. Ive been thinking about it myself > too. Keep in mind that you may find better > compensations using 3E than they did in OD&D. Giving > everyone Thief-like skills might not be neccesary now > that you have such a wide list to draw from. Mounted > Archery might be a good compensation for the Jennite > for instance.. Oh yeah. In all cases, I'm doing my best to go through the HW Player's Guide and match up the published Special Compensations with appropriate 3E feats. The Azcans get one or more helpings of the Toughness feat, the Jennites get Mounted Archery as you suggested, Neatharan tribesmen get Dodge and Weapon Focus with their tribal weapon. The Antalian skill focuses were just an interpretation of how their OD&D climbing bonus would work in 3E. I'm still a bit nervous about some specific tradeoffs (consider that a moderately-bright 6th-level Neather chieftain can have Whirlwind Attack, Weapon Specialization, *and* still have three or four feats left over to throw at other areas), but the mechanic in general seems to be the best approach to the problem. And it gets rid of Cultural Bias penalties and tracking. > > Come to think of it, similar guidelines may be > appropriate for the Known World aswell... > > > I've also rounded out the rest of the HW map with > > cultures from all over, > > just so that I can provide a pat answer if the > > players ask a passing > > seacaptain about the peoples of Jomphur, or decide > > to take a wild trip over > > to Aerical. About half of them have been snatched > > wholeheartedly from KW > > locations (and so won't be inflicted on the list), > > but a few are new. I can > > start posting descriptions/writeups if people are > > interested. > > Definately, go right ahead! Hmm. I guess I can post the list of new cultures I've got planned. This isn't quite a complete list - I'm thinking about a few more underwater/Floating Continent cultures - but it covers most of the major landmasses. And miscellaneous Neathar or Brute-Men tribes can always fill in gaps. (Note that my directions already reverse 'east' and 'west' - it's a habit I want to get into, so I can smoothly boggle my players' minds when they ask the local mapmaker about the lands about. "North, west, south, east." "Waaaait... isn't that the *other* way around?") Iciria: - Inuvit Halflings: Northeast Iciria. Based on RW Inuit villages. - Cryion Tribes: Northwest Iciria, along the Mur Gulf. - Tuklarai Neathar: East of Krugel Horde. Based on SW Amerind culture. - Aelfos: Forest gnomes, west of the Tanagoro. Notable tricksters. (These are likely only IMC, but I want a few gnomish cultures that aren't Oostdokian inventors in my HW. If there's a serious interest, I can do a writeup.) - Vlaanderen: Flemish country in HW, east of Nithia along the Bay of Adoth. - Ghansa: African seafaring nation, early 13th century. South of Milenians, near the western edge of the Sea of Yr. (I've seen the existing writeup on Pandius that has a Taymoran culture placed in this area... but I stole the slot for the Ghansa IMC. The Taymorans get a better spot in southern Jomphur.) - Pictish Dwarves: South of Nithia, along plains/low mountains. - Kopru Caverns: Eastern Sea of Yr (south of the Jennites). Aerical: - Baarukai Clans: Northeastern Aerical. Hobgoblin nomads - some mounted, some on foot. Similar to Scythians/Huns. - Kobolds of Crosak: North-central Aerical mountains. Loosely Slavic; train bats and spiders to guard their cities. - Draeconas Empire: Byzantium/Thyatis. Southeastern Aerical, with colonies on Hagvar Islands, western Suridal, Jomphur and Anathy Archipelago. Strong seapower, good magic (mostly sorcerors), lousy land army. - Several other cultures (the aranea of Herath, the Heldannic Knights, and so on) stolen from OW Mystara occupy the eastern half of this continent IMC. So this territory's still open. Wintlian Islands: - Tribes of Kaazak: Shark-kin/Sahaguin, in the Aerimar Gauntlet. - Heian-ku: Heian era Japan, with strong clerical element. Mid-Wintlian islands. Suridal: - Blackfang Gnolls: Mountain gnolls, mountains of northeastern Suridal. Check Broken Lands for ideas/source material. - Deccan: Halfling free state, on the eastern shore of the Bay of Lokam in Suridal. Similar to Indian trading cities in time of the Raj. Strong trade, enough sea presence to control the Bay. - Kushin Highlands: Central-east of Suridal, along the mountain spine. Tibetan farmers, including Gurkas. - Zagrosin Empire: Southwestern Suridal. Persian influences. - KW Robrenn and the Principality of Belcadiz are also stolen and dropped on northern Suridal IMC. Jomphur: - Aradnos: Northern island off Jomphur. Minoan culture. - Dengarm: Mountains of northeastern Jomphur. Original dwarven culture; very flashy and oriented towards personal power and elan. The closest RW match might be the city-states of the early Italian Renaissance. - Trollmoor: Northwestern Jomphur, along the equatorial mountains. Home to trolls, lots of 'em, with a suprisingly good oral tradition and magecraft. (You still don't want them as neighbors, though.) - Shien Kingdoms: From 1st century China (3 Kingdoms period). Chaotic politics, both within the kingdoms themselves and through the influence of neighbors. Central Jomphur. - Taymora: Mountains of south-central Jomphur. Floating Continents: - Samhaelar: City of the 'Blackwind Cult', on a floating continent above the Hollow World. Passes roughly over the northern tropic, two revolutions a year. Thoughts, concerns, opinions about what to see first/ditch entirely? > > Havard > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:14:00 -0400 From: Christopher M Cherrington Subject: Re: Nithian Valley of Kings (was: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) Behalf Of John Calvin << Heh. This could also be true. ;) The Lich might be known to the Shadow Elves. In fact the Lich might actually help some of their number establish Alfheimer identities (in exchange for certian tasks performed). So once the PCs defeat the Lich, they may have some very irate Shadow Elves to deal with. >> The lich would be smart enough not to ally with the Shadow Elves, but to cover his tracks by framing them for any overt activity. Another possible scenerio would be the ironic one, or the Lich actual does remember he was Nithian, and it is his artifacts that are used to destroy the Canolbarth. The Shadow Elves believe they diseased the forest and since they did it, they could reverse the effects once all the Alfheimers leave. To their surprise, it doesn't reverse, and the lich laughs in glee that not only did he get rid of those Alfheimers, he tricked the new guys as well. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 7 Sep 2003 to 8 Sep 2003 (#2003-220) **************************************************************