Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 8 Sep 2003 to 9 Sep 2003 (#2003-221) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 10/09/2003, 17:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 26 messages totalling 1613 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - (8) 2. Nithian Valley of Kings (was: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) (2) 3. Imperialism and Conquest - A tentative guideline to BC 1000 4. (very long) Taymoran Timeline v. 2.2 (updated (2) 5. The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) (2) 6. Epic Elven Quest 7. KW AC 2000? (4) 8. SoO (2) 9. The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) 10. Elven Time Line (long) Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - 11. Hollow World - Elves of Icevale additions 12. A belated re-introduction ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:13:05 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - > There is not much explanation of why > Mealiden led so many elves out of the Sylvan Realm; The elves escaped the Sylvan Realm because their lands were almost entirely conquered by a human army led by the elf-hater Moorkroft. > Mealiden could have been called by his > cousins to help dispel great atrocities being caused > by the Nithians. The ideas you present are cool, but contradict canon in more than one place. There were no related elven clan in the Known World at the time, and no-one that knew where Mealiden and his elves were anyway. > Another Tolkienisque connection could be the > Nithians’ love for breeding new creatures, could the > Nithians have captured several clans of elves and > warped them into the Goblins and Hobgoblins of > today? The origin of goblins and hobgoblins is firmly established in the Beastman races. Personally I don't like much this idea, although it's only my 2 cents and you can dismiss entirely my opinion! 8-) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail: 6MB di spazio gratuito, 30MB per i tuoi allegati, l'antivirus, il filtro Anti-spam http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:24:35 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Nithian Valley of Kings (was: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) But the Lich should be able to remain alive for 1500 years...it's a long long time without being discovered! And the Alfheimers know very well their forest. I don't want to sound negative, I just think that we should come up with a very good explanation for his being alive. A detailed history of this lich wouldn't be a bad thing. And, by the way, don't you think there are too many liches in the Known World? 8-) Just look at the last almanac! 8-) Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail: 6MB di spazio gratuito, 30MB per i tuoi allegati, l'antivirus, il filtro Anti-spam http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:42:32 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - la Volpe wrote: >> There is not much explanation of why >> Mealiden led so many elves out of the Sylvan Realm; > > The elves escaped the Sylvan Realm because their lands > were almost entirely conquered by a human army led by > the elf-hater Moorkroft. No, those were the Feadiel (sp?) elves, who arrived later. Mealiden was probably trying his way at immortality (creating the Canolbarth forest, therefore terraforming a large expanse of land). >> Mealiden could have been called by his >> cousins to help dispel great atrocities being caused >> by the Nithians. > > The ideas you present are cool, but contradict canon > in more than one place. > There were no related elven clan in the Known World at > the time, and no-one that knew where Mealiden and his > elves were anyway. No, but the Sylvan Realms elves knew of the elves in the Thyatian region. Moreover, if we take it as an Immortal plot to keep the Nithian under control, then the elves need not to have known the (true) reason of their migration. >> Another Tolkienisque connection could be the >> Nithians' love for breeding new creatures, could the >> Nithians have captured several clans of elves and >> warped them into the Goblins and Hobgoblins of >> today? > > The origin of goblins and hobgoblins is firmly > established in the Beastman races. Right. Goblinoids in general are well known from earlier times. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:21:56 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - > > From: la Volpe > > The elves escaped the Sylvan Realm because their lands > were almost entirely conquered by a human army led by > the elf-hater Moorkroft. > Moorkroft does not invade the Sylvan Realm until much, much later, at least not for another 1400 years. > >Mealiden could have been called by his > > cousins to help dispel great atrocities being caused > > by the Nithians. > > The ideas you present are cool, but contradict canon > in more than one place. > There were no related elven clan in the Known World at > the time, and no-one that knew where Mealiden and his > elves were anyway. > 800 BC: Elves led by Mealiden Starwatcher leave the Sylvan Realm via the magical rainbow; they carry nine seedlings of the tree of life with them. They land in the forested regions of what would later be called Thyatis, but are driven out by the warlike humans there, and flee northward. The Callarii clan settles in Traladara territory; most of the rest settle in a windy steppes area. Elvish wizards begin to alter those steppes with their magic, changing the land nearly overnight into terrain where a mighty forest could flourish. In the process, they drive orcs from the open lands to the west. This seems more like an invasion than a migration, except for the seedlings; but they may have needed them in order to create the forest and for protection from entropic magics. Also if you want to travel by magic from point a to point b, you need to know or have been to point b before. Everything they did was done expediently, not several hundred years, although the Canolbarth Forest is not officially finished until 500 BC (amazingly at the same time Nithia is destroyed). If leaving enemies in the Sylvan Realm, they sure do have a lot of powerful magic at their disposal. > > Another Tolkienisque connection could be the > > Nithians’ love for breeding new creatures, could the > > Nithians have captured several clans of elves and > > warped them into the Goblins and Hobgoblins of > > today? > > The origin of goblins and hobgoblins is firmly > established in the Beastman races. Personally I don't > like much this idea, although it's only my 2 cents and > you can dismiss entirely my opinion! 8-) > I love LotR 8-P ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:26:39 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Imperialism and Conquest - A tentative guideline to BC 1000 --- John Calvin skrev: > Following along the lines for what Guilio did for BC > 500, I am providing a > tentative guideline for BC 1000. Hopefully this > might help us flesh out the BC > 500 timeline as well. I'm taking lots of the neat > ideas for the BC 500 > guideline proposed by Guilio, Chris Cherington, and > Havard (and working > backward) in order to put this together. > > This is just a first pass. Feel free to correct > mistakes and elaborate. > > IMPERIALISM AND CONQUEST - A TENTATIVE GUIDELINE TO > BC 1000 Rise of Nithia would perhaps be an appropriate title for this era? > ALPHATIA > The Nithians, having had contact with the Alphatians > for centuries (perhaps > instigating inter-planar trade), invite the > Alphatians to settle and conquer > lands near their eastern frontier. The Alphatians > initiate Landfall and begin > their conquest (and destruction) of the native > peoples inhabiting the area. > This allows Nithia to focus their attention (and > military might) on matters > more close to home. Am I the only one who still believe the Alphatians come from outer space? :) > KARAMEIKOS > Gnolls (recently escaped from under Nithian control) > have invaded these lands > and are overrunning the native populace (the > Traldar). This is the end of the > City States, and the time sung about in the Song of > Halav. The Traldar put up > a good fight, but are eventually overcome. Many of > them set sail for the > southern continent in order to escape utter > destruction. Untill recently, Traladara have been under the control of the Hutaakans. But learning of the arrival of the Gnolls, who were created as a twisted reflection of the Hutaakans themselves, they have now for the most part redrawn to their hidden cities. Many other fortresses and hidden lairs are left behind only to be occupied by monsters untill adventurers of the future clear them out again, perhaps gaining some knowledge of that lost civilization... The southern Traladaran clans under the control of King Milen, leave for Davania. The Traladarans left behind suffer enormous losses, but eventually manage to drive the Gnolls back thanks to Halav and his companions. The Gnolls withdraw into the northwestern wilderness, where they remain untill today (AC1000). Havard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:31:57 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - --- John Calvin wrote: > If we assume that they were indeed part of > Mealiden's group perhaps they were > part of a two pronged attack against the Nithians. > The first group, led by > Mealiden moved into the Canolbarth area and secured > a base there, while the > second moved into the Thyatis area. I believe the official timeline says the Vyalia were already there when Mealidens group entered Thyatis. I dont know any official sources for where the Vyalia come from, but I assume that they were either travelling with the Meditor/Verdier group or part of a much earlier elven migration that included the Wendar elves and the ancestors of the Shadowelves. Havard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:34:21 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Nithian Valley of Kings (was: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) --- la Volpe skrev: > But the Lich should be able to remain alive for 1500 > years...it's a long long time without being > discovered! And the Alfheimers know very well their > forest. I don't want to sound negative, I just think > that we should come up with a very good explanation > for his being alive. A detailed history of this lich > wouldn't be a bad thing. > And, by the way, don't you think there are too many > liches in the Known World? 8-) > Just look at the last almanac! 8-) I believe he has been in stasis for centuries. Perhaps he has never been discovered due to his inactivity. The elves may have known of ruins in that area, but perhaps the SoO caused them to believe that these were already explored and not very interesting. We definately don't want a Lich overflow, but this guy is from an official source. We might just kill him off though...hehe :) Havard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:05:48 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: (very long) Taymoran Timeline v. 2.2 (updated > >>> > 2000 BC: Some geological instabilities destroy some > peripherical areas of Taymora, sinking some areas and > creating new islands and land masses. Most Taymoran > cities survive, and the Kings foolishly continue their > wars. > > 1750 BC: Geological disasters-volcanic > eruptions and earthquakes, enhanced by the massive > magical energies invoked by the warring sorcerers- > sink most of the remaining Taymoran lands into the > sea, and splinter off much of the rest south of the > modern day lands of the Five Shires and the Atruaghin > Clans. > > 1'720 BC: Land masses split further away, forming ten > islands south of the Five Shires. > Taymoran remnants attempt to take over Meditor elves > in Colhador, are repelled. > > 1'700 BC: Cataclysms split land masses and ocean > floods create islands; Meditor elves are left on the > new-made Isles of Dread. > << > > Ok, I have 2 comments. One about the timeline and the other concerning maps. > Timeline first. > > As it stands now the 2 entries for 1720 and 1700 are a little confusing. > It seems like they are both saying the same thing. Land masses are split apart > and islands form. It might be interesting to make this one continous event, > starting at 1720 and lasting for 20 years. 20 years of volcanoes and floods. > Very nasty. > > Now for maps. I've looked on Thib's site for some maps, but wasn't able to > find what I wanted. What I'm looking for is: > > 1) Map of Brun pre-2000BC (before any land shifting cataclysim takes place). > 2) Map of Brun post-2000BC (after first Taymoran cataclysm). > 3) Map of Brun post-1750BC > > According to the timeline above the last of the land shifting cataclysms would > have ocured around 1720-1700BC leaving us with Brun as we know it. > > Does anybody have anything like this lying around on their hard disks, or know > of these maps lying around the net. I could have sworn that I saw a map > somewhere that showed the extent of the Taymoran empire, but can't remember > where. It's probably on Thib's site somehwere, but I just can't find it. > > -John > > ===== > Rule #85. > I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align > the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the > moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the > button." > > from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > > -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:36:42 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) John wrote: > MINROTHAD > > Well, that's 600 years of Nithian control, so Minrothad was probably more than > a Nithian colony in 500 BC. My bet is that a majority of the population is > wiped out (due to corruption), and the rest is left in utter turmoil. > Minrothad in 500 BC is probably not a safe place to visit. Given how expansionistic the Nithians were, I would think that Minrothad c. BC 750-550 was probably extensively settled, with several small cities, many ports. Even during the last few decades, when everything really went to pot, the population was still fairly substantial, I'll bet. This would make the collapse of Nithian Minrothad all the more dangerous. I think it would be more than appropriate to assume that the island has its share of Nithian ruins, too. >>> >THYATIS > > I kind of like the idea that the Nithians came down hard on the Thyatians after > their initial invasion of the land. Remember, the Nithians at this time are > corrupted by dark forces, so they are probably pretty nasty folks. That's certainly true. An excellent source of ideas is the Thyatian timeline on the Talerio website (Giulio can provide the URL, but it should be on the links page on the Vaults), where the interactions between the Thyatian tribes and the indigenous peoples is documented. My take on this is that if the Thyatians were able to resist the Milenian Empire for as long they were able (and this was before the empire really became corrupt, too), they would certainly be able to establish toeholds on Brun - but that's about it. The Nithians would be firmly entrenched, and the Thyatians probably made alliances with some of the Doulakki city-states (distant cultural ties, inherited through imposed Milenian traditions, would probably have made the Doulakkis lean towards the Thyatians as opposed to the Nithians - the enemy of my enemy is my friend) in order to strengthen their initial gains. Many early Thyatian settlements no doubt fell, but early alliances between the Doulakki and the Thyatians probably beat back the Nithians in some regions of what is now Thyatis. I agree that the Spell of Oblivion helped pave the way for Thyatian dominance in that part of the world, but I think that, had it not happened, the eventual Nithian victory there would have taken several bloody decades to accomplish. Geoff PS - Giulio, this was an excellent idea of yours - it gives us a great snapshot of what the world was like at a specific time. Perhaps some people might be interested in doing more for other periods? I think this would be the perfect trool for DMs wishing to run campaigns in other time periods - "Mystaran Geopolitical Overviews Through the Ages", if you will! :-) -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:14:49 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: (very long) Taymoran Timeline v. 2.2 (updated I apologise to the list for resending a message that (I thought) I had replied to. What I *intended* to say, was that I have a map of southern Brun (BC 2000) on my website. It differs from James Mishler's map in that it goes as far west as Sind (where I placed a great delta at the mouth of the Asanda River - now long since submerged), and the southern coastline more closely matches what we know today as the KW. Not to say my map is better, but it is an alternative. Thib, if you want, feel free to post it on your site. :) Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:29:00 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Epic Elven Quest This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=____1063121340166_5?KyZlrORC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I tend to like the Epic Elf Quest of the elves rebuilding human nations. Humans in the canon timeline were all made out to be brought back down to the Stone Age. Elves decided to abandon technology and revert back to magic. Elves encountering other less advanced nations would want to rebuild them, for protection (as in Darokin surrounding Alfheim) or so they could have someone to trade with. Possibly they would have helped less advantageous societies as a way of reflecting the same protectiveness they were given by the forest spirits in their early dawn days. One very good example of this friendship is in the history of Eusdria. Another affect of this “Great Decision”, would also be a stewardship, never to allow any other nation build or advance to that of Blackmoor’s level. As soon as the Nithians were able to create “great magics to rival the immortals”, corrupted or not, the elves would have felt obligated to smash down this civilization. With the elves long lives and memories, they would have seen Nithia as the closest thing to Blackmoor. An all out invasion would have been too overt and suicidal; they would have needed a long term base of operations. The forested areas of Thyatis proved to be too hostile by the humans already living there and the advancing tribes from Davania (Thytians, Kerrendians, and Hattians). The next best thing would be to create a great forest in a strategic location, and if the creation of the forest also took the lifegiving rains away from your enemy, so much for the better. If the immortals did not step in, I am sure the elves would have kept the Canolbarth growing to include parts of the Cruth and Altan Teppes mountains in the south and east, and bring the northern border right into the Broken Lands in the north. The immortals did step in, and the forest stopped. Possibly the elves’ tie to this “stewardship” was so greatly entwined with Nithia’s destruction, that when the SoO happened they forgot th e reason for their stewardship and so stopped all outside contact ------=____1063121340166_5?KyZlrORC Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: null; name="reply" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="reply" Sm9obiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPk1JTlJPVEhBRA0KPg0KPldlbGwsIHRoYXQncyA2MDAgeWVhcnMg b2YgTml0aGlhbiBjb250cm9sLCBzbyBNaW5yb3RoYWQgd2FzIHByb2JhYmx5IG1vcmUgdGhh bg0KPmEgTml0aGlhbiBjb2xvbnkgaW4gNTAwIEJDLiAgTXkgYmV0IGlzIHRoYXQgYSBtYWpv cml0eSBvZiB0aGUgcG9wdWxhdGlvbiBpcw0KPndpcGVkIG91dCAoZHVlIHRvIGNvcnJ1cHRp b24pLCBhbmQgdGhlIHJlc3QgaXMgbGVmdCBpbiB1dHRlciB0dXJtb2lsLg0KPk1pbnJvdGhh ZCBpbiA1MDAgQkMgaXMgcHJvYmFibHkgbm90IGEgc2FmZSBwbGFjZSB0byB2aXNpdC4NCg0K R2l2ZW4gaG93IGV4cGFuc2lvbmlzdGljIHRoZSBOaXRoaWFucyB3ZXJlLCBJIHdvdWxkIHRo aW5rIHRoYXQgTWlucm90aGFkDQpjLiBCQyA3NTAtNTUwIHdhcyBwcm9iYWJseSBleHRlbnNp dmVseSBzZXR0bGVkLCB3aXRoIHNldmVyYWwgc21hbGwNCmNpdGllcywgbWFueSBwb3J0cy4g IEV2ZW4gZHVyaW5nIHRoZSBsYXN0IGZldyBkZWNhZGVzLCB3aGVuIGV2ZXJ5dGhpbmcNCnJl YWxseSB3ZW50IHRvIHBvdCwgdGhlIHBvcHVsYXRpb24gd2FzIHN0aWxsIGZhaXJseSBzdWJz dGFudGlhbCwgSSdsbA0KYmV0LiAgVGhpcyB3b3VsZCBtYWtlIHRoZSBjb2xsYXBzZSBvZiBO aXRoaWFuIE1pbnJvdGhhZCBhbGwgdGhlIG1vcmUNCmRhbmdlcm91cy4gIEkgdGhpbmsgaXQg d291bGQgYmUgbW9yZSB0aGFuIGFwcHJvcHJpYXRlIHRvIGFzc3VtZSB0aGF0IHRoZQ0KaXNs YW5kIGhhcyBpdHMgc2hhcmUgb2YgTml0aGlhbiBydWlucywgdG9vLg0KDQogPj4+ID5USFlB VElTDQo+DQo+SSBraW5kIG9mIGxpa2UgdGhlIGlkZWEgdGhhdCB0aGUgTml0aGlhbnMgY2Ft ZSBkb3duIGhhcmQgb24gdGhlIFRoeWF0aWFucyBhZnRlcg0KPnRoZWlyIGluaXRpYWwgaW52 YXNpb24gb2YgdGhlIGxhbmQuICBSZW1lbWJlciwgdGhlIE5pdGhpYW5zIGF0IHRoaXMgdGlt ZSBhcmUNCj5jb3JydXB0ZWQgYnkgZGFyayBmb3JjZXMsIHNvIHRoZXkgYXJlIHByb2JhYmx5 IHByZXR0eSBuYXN0eSBmb2xrcy4NCg0KVGhhdCdzIGNlcnRhaW5seSB0cnVlLiAgQW4gZXhj ZWxsZW50IHNvdXJjZSBvZiBpZGVhcyBpcyB0aGUgVGh5YXRpYW4NCnRpbWVsaW5lIG9uIHRo ZSBUYWxlcmlvIHdlYnNpdGUgKEdpdWxpbyBjYW4gcHJvdmlkZSB0aGUgVVJMLCBidXQgaXQg c2hvdWxkDQpiZSBvbiB0aGUgbGlua3MgcGFnZSBvbiB0aGUgVmF1bHRzKSwgd2hlcmUgdGhl IGludGVyYWN0aW9ucyBiZXR3ZWVuIHRoZQ0KVGh5YXRpYW4gdHJpYmVzIGFuZCB0aGUgaW5k aWdlbm91cyBwZW9wbGVzIGlzIGRvY3VtZW50ZWQuICBNeSB0YWtlIG9uIHRoaXMNCmlzIHRo YXQgaWYgdGhlIFRoeWF0aWFucyB3ZXJlIGFibGUgdG8gcmVzaXN0IHRoZSBNaWxlbmlhbiBF bXBpcmUgZm9yIGFzDQpsb25nIHRoZXkgd2VyZSBhYmxlIChhbmQgdGhpcyB3YXMgYmVmb3Jl IHRoZSBlbXBpcmUgcmVhbGx5IGJlY2FtZSBjb3JydXB0LA0KdG9vKSwgdGhleSB3b3VsZCBj ZXJ0YWlubHkgYmUgYWJsZSB0byBlc3RhYmxpc2ggdG9laG9sZHMgb24gQnJ1biAtIGJ1dA0K dGhhdCdzIGFib3V0IGl0LiAgVGhlIE5pdGhpYW5zIHdvdWxkIGJlIGZpcm1seSBlbnRyZW5j aGVkLCBhbmQgdGhlDQpUaHlhdGlhbnMgcHJvYmFibHkgbWFkZSBhbGxpYW5jZXMgd2l0aCBz b21lIG9mIHRoZSBEb3VsYWtraSBjaXR5LXN0YXRlcw0KKGRpc3RhbnQgY3VsdHVyYWwgdGll cywgaW5oZXJpdGVkIHRocm91Z2ggaW1wb3NlZCBNaWxlbmlhbiB0cmFkaXRpb25zLA0Kd291 bGQgcHJvYmFibHkgaGF2ZSBtYWRlIHRoZSBEb3VsYWtraXMgbGVhbiB0b3dhcmRzIHRoZSBU aHlhdGlhbnMgYXMNCm9wcG9zZWQgdG8gdGhlIE5pdGhpYW5zIC0gdGhlIGVuZW15IG9mIG15 IGVuZW15IGlzIG15IGZyaWVuZCkgaW4gb3JkZXIgdG8NCnN0cmVuZ3RoZW4gdGhlaXIgaW5p dGlhbCBnYWlucy4gIE1hbnkgZWFybHkgVGh5YXRpYW4gc2V0dGxlbWVudHMgbm8gZG91YnQN CmZlbGwsIGJ1dCBlYXJseSBhbGxpYW5jZXMgYmV0d2VlbiB0aGUgRG91bGFra2kgYW5kIHRo ZSBUaHlhdGlhbnMgcHJvYmFibHkNCmJlYXQgYmFjayB0aGUgTml0aGlhbnMgaW4gc29tZSBy ZWdpb25zIG9mIHdoYXQgaXMgbm93IFRoeWF0aXMuDQoNCkkgYWdyZWUgdGhhdCB0aGUgU3Bl bGwgb2YgT2JsaXZpb24gaGVscGVkIHBhdmUgdGhlIHdheSBmb3IgVGh5YXRpYW4gZG9taW5h bmNlDQppbiB0aGF0IHBhcnQgb2YgdGhlIHdvcmxkLCBidXQgSSB0aGluayB0aGF0LCBoYWQg aXQgbm90IGhhcHBlbmVkLCB0aGUNCmV2ZW50dWFsIE5pdGhpYW4gdmljdG9yeSB0aGVyZSB3 b3VsZCBoYXZlIHRha2VuIHNldmVyYWwgYmxvb2R5IGRlY2FkZXMgdG8NCmFjY29tcGxpc2gu DQoNCkdlb2ZmDQoNClBTIC0gR2l1bGlvLCB0aGlzIHdhcyBhbiBleGNlbGxlbnQgaWRlYSBv ZiB5b3VycyAtIGl0IGdpdmVzIHVzIGEgZ3JlYXQNCnNuYXBzaG90IG9mIHdoYXQgdGhlIHdv cmxkIHdhcyBsaWtlIGF0IGEgc3BlY2lmaWMgdGltZS4gIFBlcmhhcHMgc29tZQ0KcGVvcGxl IG1pZ2h0IGJlIGludGVyZXN0ZWQgaW4gZG9pbmcgbW9yZSBmb3Igb3RoZXIgcGVyaW9kcz8g SSB0aGluayB0aGlzDQp3b3VsZCBiZSB0aGUgcGVyZmVjdCB0cm9vbCBmb3IgRE1zIHdpc2hp bmcgdG8gcnVuIGNhbXBhaWducyBpbiBvdGhlciB0aW1lDQpwZXJpb2RzIC0gIk15c3RhcmFu IEdlb3BvbGl0aWNhbCBPdmVydmlld3MgVGhyb3VnaCB0aGUgQWdlcyIsIGlmIHlvdSB3aWxs ISA6LSkNCg0KLS0NCkdlb2ZmIEdhbmRlciwgQkEgOTcsIE1QQSAwMg0KQ2FybmlmZXggTG9y ZW1hc3Rlci9NYWQgUm9sZXBsYXllcg0KTWFzdGVyIG9mIHRoZSBFbGVtZW50YWwgUGxhbmUg b2YgQnVyZWF1Y3JhY3kNCmF1OTk4QGZyZWVuZXQuY2FybGV0b24uY2EgOiB3d3cuZ2VvY2l0 aWVzLmNvbS9UaW1lc1NxdWFyZS9SZWFsbS8yMDkxDQoNCioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqDQpUaGUg T3RoZXIgV29ybGRzIEhvbWVwYWdlOiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LndpemFyZHMuY29tL2RuZC9PdGhl cldvcmxkcy5hc3ANClRoZSBNeXN0YXJhIEhvbWVwYWdlOiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmRuZC5zdGFy Zmx1bmcuY29tLw0KVG8gdW5zdWJzY3JpYmUsIHNlbmQgZW1haWwgdG8gTElTVFNFUlZAT1JB Q0xFLldJWkFSRFMuQ09NDQp3aXRoIFVOU1VCIE1ZU1RBUkEtTCBpbiB0aGUgYm9keSBvZiB0 aGUgbWVzc2FnZS4NCg0K ------=____1063121340166_5?KyZlrORC-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:44:48 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - Havard Faanes wrote: > > I believe the official timeline says the Vyalia were > already there when Mealidens group entered Thyatis. I > dont know any official sources for where the Vyalia > come from, but I assume that they were either > travelling with the Meditor/Verdier group or part of a > much earlier elven migration that included the Wendar > elves and the ancestors of the Shadowelves. I assume they were part of Ilsundal's Migration who, like the Meditor and Verdier, left at some point. In my Taymoran history, they were allowed to cross the Taymoran lands and settle east of them by the Necromancer-Kings, who used them as mercenaries against the Altan Tepee's Giants, and then to create a border state to shield Taymora from the eastern barbarians. Bye, -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:47:26 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: KW AC 2000? So, since we are doing historical time periods. How about speculating about Mystaras future? I know there was an issue in Dragon, which did a modern version of Greyhawk. Would be fun to see Thyatian legions armed with automatic rifles, the Darokin Stock Exchange, Rockhome Clan-based Computer Companies, Glantri Technomagic, Alfheim Enviromental Activists etc etc... Anyone up for doing a take on this? :D Havard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:51:20 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: SoO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=____1063126280459_.jx_ymU6V4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have never liked the idea of the Nithian’s story line behind the Spell of Obliteration. With everything left behind in storylines, plots, evil monsters and the like, I want players to discover an ancient hidden empire that has been destroyed by the immortals. This can take players in all sorts of directions. First the slightest change to the SoO, this does not erase the memories of the Nithian’s existence, just the incredible magics that they once held. What does this do with other nations? For one, the elves forget how to build incredible forests from plains vegetation. They also forget how to use the Rainbow Path to get back home. Alphatians forget how to travel from their home world or how to create their skyships for a couple hundred or so years. Thothians and other colonies lose contact with each other, and how to create or use their monolithic devices. Because the immortals so thoroughly destroy Nithia, most cultures left behind will soon disbelief they ever existed, and since nobody knows how to recreate the great magics they once had, they never believe anyone else could have been able to do it. Soon Nithia becomes a lost world like Atlantis. Many sages speculate and fight over the Tamoran ruins to actually be Nithian, or even the Oltec ruins in the Savage Coast to be remnants that are Nithian. They would even disbelief the Thothians claim to be part of ancient Nithia; as if they were, they would have conquered Alphatia with their great magics, and not be subject to Alphatia. Many secret societies could be bred from “Ancient Lines of Kings”, creating a plethora of secret cults, magecraft, and the like; many are entirely false and maybe a few are real. Many elves and Alphatians would have a good historical knowledge of Nithian society, buried deep in long lost and forgotten libraries. This type of hidden knowledge would give the elves of Alheim and the Alphatians a really good excuse to war against Glantri on the basis o f evil magic. 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--- Giampaolo Agosta : > I assume they were part of Ilsundal's Migration who, > like the Meditor > and Verdier, left at some point. > In my Taymoran history, they were allowed to cross > the Taymoran lands > and settle east of them by the Necromancer-Kings, > who used them as > mercenaries against the Altan Tepee's Giants, and > then to create a > border state to shield Taymora from the eastern > barbarians. That is a reasonable explaination. But whatabout the Wendar, the Belcadiz and the ancestors of the Shadow Elves? Hmm...didnt someone do a timeline on the elven migrations? Couldn't find it on the Vault though... Cheers, Havard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:23:02 -0700 From: Daniel Gioffre Subject: Re: Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - My assumption that the Vyalia are part of Mealiden's migration is derived from the fact that they worship Mealiden as an Immortal. Put it this way: the elves who worship Ilsundal are those who followed him to Brun (this is why the Minrothad elves, who were part of a different migration, do not follow him). By analogy, I assumed that those elves who worship Mealiden must have had some connection to him before he gained Immortality. This doesn't _have_ to be the case, but to my ear it has a certain pleasing symmetry. -Dan ===== "Feanor began to love the Silmarils with a greedy love, and grudged the sight of them to all save to his father and his seven sons; he seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own." -J.R.R. Tolkien, Quenta Silmarillion __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:37:02 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - --- Chris Cherrington ha scritto: > > > > From: la Volpe > > > > The elves escaped the Sylvan Realm because their > lands > > were almost entirely conquered by a human army led > by > > the elf-hater Moorkroft. > > > Moorkroft does not invade the Sylvan Realm until > much, much later, at least not for another 1400 > years. Yes, Giampaolo reminded me with a previous post. Now everything fits much better with canon. My fault! (dISCLAIMER: this is not an official statement on the part of the Thyatian Empire, but just an opinion expressed by the author) 8-) Iulius Sergius Scaevola ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail: 6MB di spazio gratuito, 30MB per i tuoi allegati, l'antivirus, il filtro Anti-spam http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:43:36 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=____1063129416521_QJ==3.4)ng Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > From: Geoff Gander au998@FREENET.CARLETON.CA > > Given how expansionistic the Nithians were, I would think that Minrothad > c. BC 750-550 was probably extensively settled, with several small > cities, many ports. Even during the last few decades, when everything > really went to pot, the population was still fairly substantial, I'll > bet. This would make the collapse of Nithian Minrothad all the more > dangerous. I think it would be more than appropriate to assume that the > island has its share of Nithian ruins, too. > Here is the main gap; in 1100 BC Minroth founds the colony by creating the town of Harbortown. Not until 276 AC (a full 1376 years later) do any elves establish contact with any humans in the Dread Isles that will later be called Minrothad. Someone is lying about their history, as there are no other towns founded until after this date. I would imagine the humans of Harbortown never fully develop into a recognizable society until many years later when they create an elaborate story of mythical ancestry. The elves do the same, and together they create a new society based on elaborate tales to embellish their wares that they begin to sell to the real established kingdoms of the mainland. This is a good Prester John plot, other nations buy into it, and leave the new fledgling community alone to prosper and develop a real nation of merchants, pirates and thieves. Koritiku is so amazed of the huge success of the lie, that he embellishes the story of Minroth into the minds of some local adventurers that begin a quest of immortality by following the mythical adventurers of Minroth and start a whole religion of Minrothism. Later on Koritiku borrows the idea, and starts supplanting other nations’ pirates into the Hollow World to see if they can replicate the same fanciful story there. ------=____1063129416521_QJ==3.4)ng Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: null; name="reply" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="reply" Sm9obiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPk1JTlJPVEhBRA0KPg0KPldlbGwsIHRoYXQncyA2MDAgeWVhcnMg b2YgTml0aGlhbiBjb250cm9sLCBzbyBNaW5yb3RoYWQgd2FzIHByb2JhYmx5IG1vcmUgdGhh bg0KPmEgTml0aGlhbiBjb2xvbnkgaW4gNTAwIEJDLiAgTXkgYmV0IGlzIHRoYXQgYSBtYWpv cml0eSBvZiB0aGUgcG9wdWxhdGlvbiBpcw0KPndpcGVkIG91dCAoZHVlIHRvIGNvcnJ1cHRp b24pLCBhbmQgdGhlIHJlc3QgaXMgbGVmdCBpbiB1dHRlciB0dXJtb2lsLg0KPk1pbnJvdGhh ZCBpbiA1MDAgQkMgaXMgcHJvYmFibHkgbm90IGEgc2FmZSBwbGFjZSB0byB2aXNpdC4NCg0K R2l2ZW4gaG93IGV4cGFuc2lvbmlzdGljIHRoZSBOaXRoaWFucyB3ZXJlLCBJIHdvdWxkIHRo aW5rIHRoYXQgTWlucm90aGFkDQpjLiBCQyA3NTAtNTUwIHdhcyBwcm9iYWJseSBleHRlbnNp dmVseSBzZXR0bGVkLCB3aXRoIHNldmVyYWwgc21hbGwNCmNpdGllcywgbWFueSBwb3J0cy4g IEV2ZW4gZHVyaW5nIHRoZSBsYXN0IGZldyBkZWNhZGVzLCB3aGVuIGV2ZXJ5dGhpbmcNCnJl YWxseSB3ZW50IHRvIHBvdCwgdGhlIHBvcHVsYXRpb24gd2FzIHN0aWxsIGZhaXJseSBzdWJz dGFudGlhbCwgSSdsbA0KYmV0LiAgVGhpcyB3b3VsZCBtYWtlIHRoZSBjb2xsYXBzZSBvZiBO aXRoaWFuIE1pbnJvdGhhZCBhbGwgdGhlIG1vcmUNCmRhbmdlcm91cy4gIEkgdGhpbmsgaXQg d291bGQgYmUgbW9yZSB0aGFuIGFwcHJvcHJpYXRlIHRvIGFzc3VtZSB0aGF0IHRoZQ0KaXNs YW5kIGhhcyBpdHMgc2hhcmUgb2YgTml0aGlhbiBydWlucywgdG9vLg0KDQogPj4+ID5USFlB VElTDQo+DQo+SSBraW5kIG9mIGxpa2UgdGhlIGlkZWEgdGhhdCB0aGUgTml0aGlhbnMgY2Ft ZSBkb3duIGhhcmQgb24gdGhlIFRoeWF0aWFucyBhZnRlcg0KPnRoZWlyIGluaXRpYWwgaW52 YXNpb24gb2YgdGhlIGxhbmQuICBSZW1lbWJlciwgdGhlIE5pdGhpYW5zIGF0IHRoaXMgdGlt ZSBhcmUNCj5jb3JydXB0ZWQgYnkgZGFyayBmb3JjZXMsIHNvIHRoZXkgYXJlIHByb2JhYmx5 IHByZXR0eSBuYXN0eSBmb2xrcy4NCg0KVGhhdCdzIGNlcnRhaW5seSB0cnVlLiAgQW4gZXhj ZWxsZW50IHNvdXJjZSBvZiBpZGVhcyBpcyB0aGUgVGh5YXRpYW4NCnRpbWVsaW5lIG9uIHRo ZSBUYWxlcmlvIHdlYnNpdGUgKEdpdWxpbyBjYW4gcHJvdmlkZSB0aGUgVVJMLCBidXQgaXQg c2hvdWxkDQpiZSBvbiB0aGUgbGlua3MgcGFnZSBvbiB0aGUgVmF1bHRzKSwgd2hlcmUgdGhl IGludGVyYWN0aW9ucyBiZXR3ZWVuIHRoZQ0KVGh5YXRpYW4gdHJpYmVzIGFuZCB0aGUgaW5k aWdlbm91cyBwZW9wbGVzIGlzIGRvY3VtZW50ZWQuICBNeSB0YWtlIG9uIHRoaXMNCmlzIHRo YXQgaWYgdGhlIFRoeWF0aWFucyB3ZXJlIGFibGUgdG8gcmVzaXN0IHRoZSBNaWxlbmlhbiBF bXBpcmUgZm9yIGFzDQpsb25nIHRoZXkgd2VyZSBhYmxlIChhbmQgdGhpcyB3YXMgYmVmb3Jl IHRoZSBlbXBpcmUgcmVhbGx5IGJlY2FtZSBjb3JydXB0LA0KdG9vKSwgdGhleSB3b3VsZCBj ZXJ0YWlubHkgYmUgYWJsZSB0byBlc3RhYmxpc2ggdG9laG9sZHMgb24gQnJ1biAtIGJ1dA0K dGhhdCdzIGFib3V0IGl0LiAgVGhlIE5pdGhpYW5zIHdvdWxkIGJlIGZpcm1seSBlbnRyZW5j aGVkLCBhbmQgdGhlDQpUaHlhdGlhbnMgcHJvYmFibHkgbWFkZSBhbGxpYW5jZXMgd2l0aCBz b21lIG9mIHRoZSBEb3VsYWtraSBjaXR5LXN0YXRlcw0KKGRpc3RhbnQgY3VsdHVyYWwgdGll cywgaW5oZXJpdGVkIHRocm91Z2ggaW1wb3NlZCBNaWxlbmlhbiB0cmFkaXRpb25zLA0Kd291 bGQgcHJvYmFibHkgaGF2ZSBtYWRlIHRoZSBEb3VsYWtraXMgbGVhbiB0b3dhcmRzIHRoZSBU aHlhdGlhbnMgYXMNCm9wcG9zZWQgdG8gdGhlIE5pdGhpYW5zIC0gdGhlIGVuZW15IG9mIG15 IGVuZW15IGlzIG15IGZyaWVuZCkgaW4gb3JkZXIgdG8NCnN0cmVuZ3RoZW4gdGhlaXIgaW5p dGlhbCBnYWlucy4gIE1hbnkgZWFybHkgVGh5YXRpYW4gc2V0dGxlbWVudHMgbm8gZG91YnQN CmZlbGwsIGJ1dCBlYXJseSBhbGxpYW5jZXMgYmV0d2VlbiB0aGUgRG91bGFra2kgYW5kIHRo ZSBUaHlhdGlhbnMgcHJvYmFibHkNCmJlYXQgYmFjayB0aGUgTml0aGlhbnMgaW4gc29tZSBy ZWdpb25zIG9mIHdoYXQgaXMgbm93IFRoeWF0aXMuDQoNCkkgYWdyZWUgdGhhdCB0aGUgU3Bl bGwgb2YgT2JsaXZpb24gaGVscGVkIHBhdmUgdGhlIHdheSBmb3IgVGh5YXRpYW4gZG9taW5h bmNlDQppbiB0aGF0IHBhcnQgb2YgdGhlIHdvcmxkLCBidXQgSSB0aGluayB0aGF0LCBoYWQg aXQgbm90IGhhcHBlbmVkLCB0aGUNCmV2ZW50dWFsIE5pdGhpYW4gdmljdG9yeSB0aGVyZSB3 b3VsZCBoYXZlIHRha2VuIHNldmVyYWwgYmxvb2R5IGRlY2FkZXMgdG8NCmFjY29tcGxpc2gu DQoNCkdlb2ZmDQoNClBTIC0gR2l1bGlvLCB0aGlzIHdhcyBhbiBleGNlbGxlbnQgaWRlYSBv ZiB5b3VycyAtIGl0IGdpdmVzIHVzIGEgZ3JlYXQNCnNuYXBzaG90IG9mIHdoYXQgdGhlIHdv cmxkIHdhcyBsaWtlIGF0IGEgc3BlY2lmaWMgdGltZS4gIFBlcmhhcHMgc29tZQ0KcGVvcGxl IG1pZ2h0IGJlIGludGVyZXN0ZWQgaW4gZG9pbmcgbW9yZSBmb3Igb3RoZXIgcGVyaW9kcz8g SSB0aGluayB0aGlzDQp3b3VsZCBiZSB0aGUgcGVyZmVjdCB0cm9vbCBmb3IgRE1zIHdpc2hp bmcgdG8gcnVuIGNhbXBhaWducyBpbiBvdGhlciB0aW1lDQpwZXJpb2RzIC0gIk15c3RhcmFu IEdlb3BvbGl0aWNhbCBPdmVydmlld3MgVGhyb3VnaCB0aGUgQWdlcyIsIGlmIHlvdSB3aWxs ISA6LSkNCg0KLS0NCkdlb2ZmIEdhbmRlciwgQkEgOTcsIE1QQSAwMg0KQ2FybmlmZXggTG9y ZW1hc3Rlci9NYWQgUm9sZXBsYXllcg0KTWFzdGVyIG9mIHRoZSBFbGVtZW50YWwgUGxhbmUg b2YgQnVyZWF1Y3JhY3kNCmF1OTk4QGZyZWVuZXQuY2FybGV0b24uY2EgOiB3d3cuZ2VvY2l0 aWVzLmNvbS9UaW1lc1NxdWFyZS9SZWFsbS8yMDkxDQoNCioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqDQpUaGUg T3RoZXIgV29ybGRzIEhvbWVwYWdlOiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LndpemFyZHMuY29tL2RuZC9PdGhl cldvcmxkcy5hc3ANClRoZSBNeXN0YXJhIEhvbWVwYWdlOiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmRuZC5zdGFy Zmx1bmcuY29tLw0KVG8gdW5zdWJzY3JpYmUsIHNlbmQgZW1haWwgdG8gTElTVFNFUlZAT1JB Q0xFLldJWkFSRFMuQ09NDQp3aXRoIFVOU1VCIE1ZU1RBUkEtTCBpbiB0aGUgYm9keSBvZiB0 aGUgbWVzc2FnZS4NCg0K ------=____1063129416521_QJ==3.4)ng-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:01:53 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Elven Time Line (long) Elven Influence In The Fall of Nithia - > > From: Havard Faanes > > That is a reasonable explaination. But whatabout the > Wendar, the Belcadiz and the ancestors of the Shadow > Elves? Hmm...didnt someone do a timeline on the elven > migrations? Couldn't find it on the Vault though... > 5000 BC: The childhood of the elves is over; the forest spirits stop sheltering them, forcing them to leave paradise and to seek their own futures. The first great elf civilization, Evergrun, develops on the southern continent in areas now 3100 BC: Aquarendi elves seek the guardianship of Manwara, an Immortal of the Sea, and enter the warm waters to begin a new life. (PC3) 3000 BC: Some Blackmoor devices explode, shifting the axis of the Known World in an event later called the Great Rain of Fire or the Planetshift. Blackmoor becomes the north pole and its civilization disappears. The elven civilization becomes the south pole; the elves are able to migrate to the area called Grunland (which now begins centuries of volcanic upheaval that lead to its being renamed Vulcania). These southern-continent elves, though suffering hardship, are not in immediate danger of extinction and so none are taken to the Hollow World. Survivors of the elven colony near Blackmoor flee to the newly-formed Broken Lands; they burrow deep into the ground to survive the after effects of the Great Rain of Fire. These are the ancestors of the Shadow Elves. (GAZ13) One of the most dangerous Blackmoor devices is left untouched in the Broken Lands. (GAZ10) 2800 BC: New elven nation on the southern continent land of Vulcania divides on magic vs. technology. A separatist branch of the southern elves, led by Ilsundal the Wise, decides to abandon Blackmoor technology and return to the nature-oriented magic of their ancestors. They begin a long migration northward in the hope of finding the lost colony of elves that had settled near Blackmoor. (GAZ5) Climatic changes due to the axial shift have rendered the lands of Blackmoor and the elves uninhabitable. In Vulcania, the elvish civilization is losing its battle with the elements; it has forgotten most of its magic and its Blackmoor technology is failing. A second separatist group of southern elves begins its long march northward. (GAZ5) 2410 BC: It is obvious to the Immortals that the southern elves are doomed, but this leaves them with a quandary. They want to preserve that elvish culture, but not the technologies which nearly destroyed the world. They settle on a compromise: They will magically alter the devices upon which the elves have grown so dependant, so that these devices will operate in only one certain valley in the Hollow World. That way, the dangerous sciences of Blackmoor cannot infect any other part of the Hollow World. Many of the elves of the southern continent are transplanted to the Hollow World. They are placed in a warm, volcanically-heated series of valleys near the southern polar opening, far away from any of the other Hollow World cultures. (HW) A great volcanic explosion occurs in Vulcania, destroying the remnants of the southern elvish civilization. (GAZ5) 2300 BC: Ilsundal's elves cross the Strait of Izonda to the Immortal's Arm, then head east along the Savage Coast. Another group takes another route through the Addakian Sound, where they rejoin Ilsundal's band and continue with them. (GAZ5) Elves arrive in and settle the eastern and central Savage Coast. They live alongside, but not among, Oltecs. (RS) The Sheyallia clan turns south, onto the Serpent Peninsula, and settles in the forest. The Meditor and Verdier clans, disliking the increasingly rainy and hot climate, sail east in search of better lands. (CoM) 2200 BC: Some elves break off from Ilsundal's migration and eventually find their way to the frozen valleys of Glantri, where they settle. A few survivors from the second migration from Vulcania also reach Glantri and settle among their cousins. (GAZ3) Some Tanagoro colonists from halfway around the world reach the Serpent Peninsula and decide they like the abundant rain forests. However, the elves regard their slash-and-burn agriculture with horror. Eventually, they work out a compromise: the Tanagoros keep to the coastlines and forest fringes, while the elves withdraw deeper into the forest. (CoM) 2100 BC: Meditor and Verdier elf clans arrive and settle in southern Traldar lands (Karameikos). (GAZ?) The main force of Ilsundal's migration reaches the Sylvan Realm, far to the west of lands such as Karameikos and Thyatis. (GAZ5) 2000 BC: Elven and human mages settle in the forests of the western Savage Coast, supplanting aranea; they name their land Herath. Enduks are created on the Orc's Head Peninsula and begin building the civilization of Nimmur. (RS) In the Sylvan Realm, Ilsundal creates the first elvish Tree of Life and becomes an Immortal. (GAZ5) 1750 BC: Elsewhere, a series of great volcanic eruptions and earthquakes split several large land masses away from what is now the Five Shires and Atruaghin Clans area; aboriginal (Neathar-descended) peoples called the Makai and lizardmen called Malpheggi are stranded on the new islands. The Taymora civilization is destroyed. The plateau under which the surviving Azcans have been living largely collapses, killing many of them and leaving the survivors in a shattered, hostile land. (GAZ4,GAZ14) Meditor elves are stranded on the newly formed Minrothad Isles. 1700 BC: The elves of Glantri discover, in the Broken Lands, a strange artifact from the lost Blackmoor civilization. They tinker with it, and the artifact explodes cataclysmically, sending impenetrable clouds into the sky (which last for years), and spreading a strange rotting plague among the surviving elves - those who were far enough away to survive. The elves shelter themselves in the deepest caves of Glantri. They find an incredible series of caverns there and begin a years-long migration. The travelling tribes are separated from one another. These are the ancestors of the Hollow World's Gentle Folk, Icevale Elves, and the Schattenalfen. A fourth group, led by an elf named Atziann, has no survivors save that king. Some emerge, years later, hundreds of miles south, past the Broken lands. Some perish. 1680 BC: Land masses split further, forming 10 islands south of the Five Shires. Verdier elves build ships and join their cousins, the Meditor clan, in the Sea of Dread. 1650 BC: A surviving clan of Glantrian elves from the outer world finds its way to the Hollow World through thousands of miles of subterranean passages. The tribe emerges in lands thickly occupied by hostile Neathar tribes and dinosaurs; they migrate northward, to lands similar to frozen Glantri, and settle in the mountains south of the Beastmen and west of the Antalians. They call their new land Icevale. (HW) Atziann, king and sole survivor of a clan of Glantri elves who had been driven underground, comes across the Hollow World Azcans, emerging near Chitlacan. Fascinated by these people, he spends several years among them (in disguise) and studying their ways before leaving to pursue his dream of Immortality. (HW) 1500 BC: The elf Atziann attains Immortality and adopts the Azcan form of his name, Atzanteotl, "Atziann the Divine." He begins whispering to selected Shadow Elves and Azcan rulers of the power and glory he can bring them, and lures them away from their faiths. Increasing numbers of Shadow Elves (especially those of the Schattenalfen clan) turn from the worship of Rafiel to that of Atzanteotl; likewise, many Azcans turn away from Otzitiotl and Kalaktatla. Only Atruatzin, the Azcan priest-king, who would later become Atruaghin, resists the Immortal. (HW/GAZ14) 1420 BC: The underground elven wanderers stumble upon Mictlan, and overthrow the humans. Those elves who have been seduced by Atzanteotl declare that the temple is sacred to him, and he has given them victory over their enemies and a place to call home. These elves become the Schattenalfen. Most of the elves are uneasy about this alien Immortal, but they are weary, and so they settle and build the city of Aengmor. All of Atruatzin's followers are slain; he alone escapes. (HW) 1400 BC: A colonizing party of Shadow Elves, mostly Schattenalf followers of Atzanteotl is driven out of Aengmor (by the will of their patron). Retracing an earlier lost expedition's path to the Hollow World, they emerge just north of the great equatorial mountain range, right in the middle of the Kogolor Dwarf territory. They immediately begin a war against the dwarves, whose lands they want. The Immortal Kagyar causes Denwarf, the former leader of the Outer World's dwarves, to help the Kogolors against the Shadow Elves. (HW) 1395 BC: The Schattenalfen are badly beaten by the Kogolor dwarves and must break off the war. They continue traveling west, to an area not infested with dwarves, and settle there. But due north of their new lands are the Azcans, whose culture and architecture are disturbingly and insultingly like theirs (a result of Atzanteotl's guidance of the Schattenalf culture, though they don't know this); the Schattenalfen hate these people, whom they see as a mockery of their culture, and begin an ages-long war with the Azcans. (HW) 1300 BC: The halflings from the southern continent, long-abandoned by their friends the elves, and increasingly endangered by the ever-growing human population, make a mass naval migration to the northern continent. They settle the area later called the Five Shires, which they name Faerdinel. They become friends with a declining, pacifistic clan of elves called the Gentle Folk. In the Savage Coast, goblinoid hordes decimate elven and Oltec civilization. Those humans and elves that remain fall to a savage, semi-nomadic existence. (RS) 1290 BC: The outer-world Shadow Elf city of Aengmor is "destroyed" (actually, merely surrounded by lava and made uninhabitable) during a volcanic eruption; many Schattenalfen escape, burrowing deeper into the crust of the earth. Actually, this is part of a grand scheme of Atzanteotl, their patron. 1104 BC: Underground elves discover the Refuge of Stone and take the name of shadow elves unto themselves. Building work begins on the City of Stars. Myfallar The Old is chosen as temporary King. 1100 BC: Nithians lead by Minroth colonise the islands later to be called the Minrothad islands, and found Harbortown. 1050 BC: Nithian priests visit the Shamans of Oenkmar. Atzanteotl is increasingly offended. 1040 BC: Tarasfir is enthroned as the first King of the Shadow Elves selected by the shamans of Rafiel. 1000 BC: Meanwhile, an expedition of Shadow Elves leaves the City of Stars in an effort to find the path to the surface world. Instead, they find their way to the Hollow World, where they are fatally poisoned by the rays of the eternal sun. Some of them make it back to the City of the Stars with news of their voyage, but all soon perish. (KW/HW) 1000 - 610 BC: Orcs, part of the migration from the Broken Lands, invade the Five Shires region and enslave the halflings. The Gentle Folk elves of the Five Shires region disappear or are destroyed by the orcs. Over a period of four hundred years, the halflings are conquered and reconquered by orcs, dwarves, and bandits of different races; eventually they reclaim their land and establish Shaerdon, a strong nation of hin. 896 BC: First shadow-elf exploration to the surface world ends in disaster with few survivors. 800 BC: The ice finally recedes to the north of Glantri. Elves led by Mealiden Starwatcher leave the Sylvan Realm via the magical rainbow; they carry nine seedlings of the tree of life with them. They land in the forested regions of what would later be called Thyatis, but are driven out by the warlike humans there, and flee northward. The Callarii clan settles in Traladara territory; most of the rest settle in a windy steppes area. Elvish wizards begin to alter those steppes with their magic, changing the land nearly overnight into terrain where a mighty forest could flourish. In the process, they drive orcs from the open lands to the west. One of the elf-clans, the Shiye, listens to the guidance of the elf-immortal Eiryndul and makes a dangerous crossing to the continent of Alphatia, where they set up their own kingdom in the deep central forests of that continent. (DotE) 792 BC: Second shadow-elf expedition to the surface lands emerges in the Broken Lands. Failure of this expedition leads to abandonment of further attempts to reach surface. 700 BC: Nithians arrive on the Savage Coast. They interbreed somewhat with Oltecs. Elves of the eastern coast establish settlements in and around what will eventually become Torreón and Narvaez. (RS) Mealiden is acclaimed king of Alfheim. 556 BC: A boy named Yav is born to an elven mother and a Tanagoro father in the Serpent Peninsula. He is the strongest seer yet known in the area, and his many timely warnings of hurricanes and other disasters make him a hero. 529 BC: A series of abuses by the Serpent Peninsula seers cause a major revolt. Elven purists slaughter every seer they can find. Some take more extreme measures, killing people of mixed elven and human blood regardless of their precognitive abilities. The unrest ends with the power of the seers broken and the Sheyallia elves fleeing the wrath of the Tanagoro people. Yav vanishes; it is thought the elves killed him. 528 BC: 3,000 Sheyallia elves fleeing from the Serpent Peninsula stumble into the Plain of Fire and discover the intricate networks of caves and tunnels beneath. The settle, war with the gnolls, and eventually cooperate with them. 500 BC: By now, the steppes where Mealiden's elves settled have become the mighty Canolbarth forest. 350 BC: Mealiden abdicates the throne to follow Ilsundal's path to Immortality. Alevar of the Grunalf clan becomes king of Alfheim. 322 BC: A Schattenalfen attack annihilates the southern Azcan city of Axateotl for the seventh, and last, time. (HW) 250 BC: Mealiden becomes an Immortal of the Sphere of Energy. 200 BC: By now, orcs control the land to the west of the Streel River, as far south as Akorros. They also control the Broken Lands, southern Glantri, and most of Ethengar. Humans control the areas south of Akorros; elves control Alfheim to the east. 150 BC: The outer-world Shadow Elves contact the humanoid tribes of the Broken Lands, spreading their hatred of the above-ground elves and persuading the humanoids to attack Alfheim. (GAZ13/GAZ10) 0 AC: The economies of both Thyatis and Alphatia have been wrecked by the war; the two powers conduct a peace treaty in the city of Edairo, the capital of Thothia (on the Isle of Dawn). Later, in Thyatis, General Zendrolion Tatriokanitas assassinates King Lucinius and several other kings gathered there, and crowns himself Emperor of Thyatis, Ochalea and the Pearl Islands. The Thyatians celebrate for weeks. Thyatians do some trading with Minroth islanders. (DotE) The Traladara begin a period of regrowth as trade is slowly established with southern peoples. Peaceable demihumans (the Callarii elves and the Highforge gnomes) settle in Traladara territories; warlike demihumans (goblins, hobgoblins, orcs) do as well, in lesser numbers. (GAZ1) 67 AC: Orcs living near Lake Amsorak wrest most of Darokin from its human inhabitants in this bloody summer. The humans and elves of Darokin join forces to drive the orcs out; they're successful. Thousands of orcs flee into Nagpuri, slaying and pillaging as they overrun the lands. Nagpuri's warriors must contend with orc troubles for the next decade. (GAZ10/GAZ11) 88 AC: Orcs make major gains against the leaderless Darokin humans, forcing the Elves of Alfheim to support Corwyn Attleson as a compromise choice to lead Darokin. The reign of Darokin Kings begins. (GAZ10/GAZ11) 100 AC: Celedryl of the Erendyl clan is crowned king of Alfheim. (GAZ5) Goblinoid hordes sweep the Savage Coast again. Tortle civilisation falls, and humans, dwarves, and elves remaining along the eastern coast are prompted to build permanent settlements. (RS) 130 AC: First contact by humanoids with shadow elves. Shadow elves rejected by Celedryl. Campaign of shadow-elf incitement of humanoids against surface elves begins. 276 AC: Human and elf cultures in the Isles of Dread meet and establish trade. 284 AC: Minrothian and Alphatian cultures clash on Dread Island over slave trading issues; elves force the humans to make peace. 300 AC: The water elf trading port of Seahome is established on Alfeisle in the Minrothad isles. 330 AC: A group of humans exploring deep underground finds the shadow elves and rekindles their interest in the surface world. 360 AC: Minroth traders carry slaves for Thyatian Empire; halfling slaves are introduced to the Isles of Dread. 390 AC: Disastrous humanoid raid on Alfheim. Some orcs captured. 443 - 445 AC: Expeditions of elves and humans attempt to purge Dread Island of all lycanthropes; human population is decimated; this time is called the Silver Purge. Similar events take place in Undersea, during the Night of the Long Knives; many weresharks flee to deeper waters. Werecreatures know this time as the Great Persecution. 450 AC: Traldar arrive in the Savage Coast region. They establish several city-states on the eastern shores of the Gulf of Hule. Traldar who settle on the western shores are absorbed into existing human cultures descended from the Oltecs. Humans of the eastern coast begin to establish permanent villages and begin to intermingle with elves of the region. (RS) 475 AC: The forest elf trading port of Verdon is founded on Alfeisle. 488 AC: Hadric Corser, the Great Uniter, brings the remaining Minroth humans together; founds the city of Minrothad and lays foundation for an organised trading federation. 500 AC: Humans move into the areas that will eventually become Eusdria and Robrenn; some elves and dwarves ally with these humans. Lupins and rakasta form permanent settlements along the central Savage Coast, in lands that will eventually become Renardy and Bellayne. (RS) 501 - 504 AC: Darokin blames the elves for an attack on a farm near the Alfheim border, and battles Alfheim in the Elfwar. 550 AC: The beast man invasion of the wizard Illodius scars the magical forests of Alfheim. Alfheim Town founded in the blighted area. 560 AC: Alfheim/Darokin alliance crushes the shadowelf invasion. 582 AC: Telemon, the current shadow-elf King, is crowned at the Temple of Rafiel. 600 AC: The Sylvan Lands are conquered by humans led by the wizard Moorkroft; the surviving elves of the Sylvan Lands, the Feadiel clan, make the dangerous passage to Alfheim. 601 AC: Gregus Verdier, the "Second Uniter," is born on Alfeisle in Minrothad. 610 AC: A band of a hundred elves fleeing their recently conquered Sylvan Lands far to the northwest encounter a group of Graakhalians on the Plain of Fire. Most decide to stay; the rest, having problems accepting the gnolls, leave at sword-point. 646 AC: Gregus Verdier forges forest elves of Minrothad into unified political and economic faction. 675 AC: King Celedryl purges shadowelf infiltrators from Alfheim, but is only partly successful. 691 AC: Gregus Verdier establishes the Council of Dread and the Minrothad Guilds. 700 AC: Gregus Verdier is assassinated. Doriath, a former adventurer, assumes the throne of Alfheim. The Erewan faction of Erendyl clan leaves Alfheim for Glantri. 722 AC: In Graakhalia, a rebellion by some of the Sylvan Lands immigrants is quickly put down, and the leaders executed. 730 AC: Settlers come to Glantri, including fair elves (descendants of the elves who fled the area in 1700 BC) and humans from Traladara and Thyatian colonies in Ylaruam. Frictions begin between the Flaems and settlers. 784 - 788 AC: The Followers of Flame (the Flaemish) war with other settlers in Glantri. With defeat come the executions of Flaemish lycanthropes who fought against the elven and Thyatian settlers. 786 AC: An Alphatian wizard named Halzunthram the Free Sword arrives in Flaemish lands and helps the humans and elves there against the Flaems, organising the settlers into an efficient fighting force. 814 AC: A massive Schattenalfen invasion of the Azcan empire is turned back at the Battle of Huixtla. (HW) 815 AC: The Azcan attempt to carry the war onto the Schattenalfen lands ends in ambush and disaster at the Battle of Wondyviel. (HW) 890 AC: Ruling Minrothad guild master Kitrina Meditor passes Isolation Act prohibiting immigration and most visitors to Minrothad. 900 AC: A new wave of colonists begins to reach the eastern Savage Coast, including people from Ylaruam, Yavdlom, and the Thyatian Empire. They bring feudalism and class structure. Adventurers begin to establish domains that eventually develop into the Savage Baronies, and absorb the elven, dwarven, and human cultures already in the region. Settlers discover the Red Curse, but decide to stay anyway. A few halflings also begin to arrive on the Savage Coast, and are absorbed into local cultures. (RS) 906 AC: Dwarves and elves in lands claimed by Narvaez declare themselves the Barony of Montoya. (RS) 942 AC: The Azcans defeat the Schattenalfen at the Battle of Ploiec, and are consequently able to maintain the Tepetitlan gold mines. (HW) 965 AC: Kitrina Meditor, ruling guildmaster of Minrothad, is assassinated. The council of guild Leaders acts as regent until Oran Meditor comes of age. 989 AC: Oran Meditor takes office as ruling guildmaster of Minrothad, instituting reforms. 991 AC: Oran Meditor rescinds the Isolation Act and opens Minrothad to outside contact. 995 AC: First assassination attempt on Oran Meditor. Clan Kasan is behind the attempt and is removed from control of the water elf guild. Clan Elsan is promoted to replace Clan Kasan. 998 AC: Second assassination attempt on Oran Meditor. The assassin is believed to be a hired wizard from Glantri. 1000 AC: Minrothad celebrates 150 years of nationhood. Oran Meditor makes public appearances to stop rumors of his continued ill health. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:45:52 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: KW AC 2000? Havard wrote: An interesting concept! FWIW, here are some of my thoughts: Darokin - The trading houses maintained their prominent role in Darokinian society, but, as civilisation advanced, and people's living standards improved (with the opening of much of northern Davania to trade between AC 1010-1100, after which strong economic links were forged across the Sea of Dread), people began to clamour for more rights. The oligarchy came under increasing pressure as decades passed, and some cities broke away for a time, and became more progressive. After a series of internal disputes between AC 1200-1400 (some of which erupted into open war), the Second Merger (more commonly known as the Reconciliation) led to a more decentralised Darokinian state, where individual cities acted more like city-states, but shared common interests such as promoting trade. From the 1500s onwards, the Darokinian Confederation branched outwards, establishing trading colonies throughout the world, and becoming the bankroller of a number of smaller states. Thyatis - I see Thyatis building on its growing trading networks in Davania and the Savage Coast. With an emphasis ona smaller, more professional army, Thyatian holdings would tend to be trading outposts and smaller colonies, where influence over local tribes and petty states can be extended and maintained. The Hinterlands colony would likely expand over the years, and become more settled - so as to be almost indistinguishable from the Known World in many ways. At the same time, contact with Milenian city-states, and the growth of a Milenian population within its own holdings, could see a partial "Hellenisation" of Thyatian culture, but many classical (Roman) trappings would remain - basically we would see the Byzantine Empire (which is what James Ruhland was developing in his own work and for the Almanac). With Darokin, Thyatis would be interested in new technologies and magical enhancements, such that, if firearms became widespread, Thyatis would certainly have its share of them. Heldann - [note - I am basing this on the work I have done in the Almanac - there is very little in the way of "official" information that would be useful here IMO] With the conclusion of the civil war c. AC 1020, the Heldannic Order adopted a slightly more moderate stance. The zealous component of the order was still there, but much smaller; more rational heads prevailed, and the order focused on maintaining conquests already obtained - indoctrination, not inquisitions, became the rule of the day. The knights brought in engineers to rebuild cities they conquered in Davania, and they recruited from local populations wherever possible. Over the following centuries, their subject populations were won over to the worship of Vanya, and, although their empire was not nearly as large as that of Thyatis, or the Darokinian trading concerns, their position was secure by AC 1300 - occupying a stretch of land on the Meghala Kimata Plains, the littoral surrounding Vanya's Rest to the east, and the region of Heldland (formerly known as southern Norwold). Eager to find new sources of revenue, the Heldannic Order (which still revered battle), hired its knights and soldiers out as professional mercenaries - most often to Thyatis, Darokin, and Renardie. Their involvement in the dirty Adakkian Wars (AC 1437-1452), and the Yazak Expedition (AC 1504-1514) are renowned in military academies throughout the modern world as textbook examples of professionally-run mercenary operations. Today, Heldann is a prosperous, if slightly conservative nation, which is also well-known industrial centre. Well, that's it for now. All this is just my own opinion, of course, but it was fun! Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:05:28 -0700 From: John Calvin Subject: Re: The Fall of Nithia - A tentative guideline (very long) >> Geoff: An excellent source of ideas is the Thyatian timeline on the Talerio website (Giulio can provide the URL, but it should be on the links page on the Vaults), where the interactions between the Thyatian tribes and the indigenous peoples is documented. << I went back to the vaults and scanned through for James' timeline. I know that he and Giulio worked extensively on it a while back. I find a discrepancy here though: Taken from James' History of the Thyatian People on the Vaults: > BC 600: Ironically, the style of the settlements of the Tribes emulate that of > their Milenian enemies. At this time the Thyatians are ruled by a strong Rex > (or King), and organized into warbands. Sharp battles are fought against the > Nithians and their subjects as that Empire decays, with the Thyatians > gradually expanding their colonisation northwards and eastwards. The iron > weapons of the Thyatians help them in their battles against the Nithians, who > are still using bronze weapons. I like the Taymoran entry (in BC 1700) that suggests that Taymoran remnants would have kept (and eventually passed on) the secret of iron working. However the BC 600 entry seems to imply that one of the big reasons that the Thyatians were able to overcome the Nithians was their superior weapons quality (iron vs bronze). Giulio can you comment on this? I'm assuming that the above is the timeline you worked on with James, but I might be looking at an old version. -John ===== Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:47:18 -0700 From: Rodger Burns Subject: Hollow World - Elves of Icevale additions Hey all! Here's a bit of a writeup on how the Icevale Elves get fleshed out a bit IMC. Most of the rules here have 3E notes attached since that's what I run, but trimming back to OD&D shouldn't be difficult. There's probably more that can be done here, such as possibly a short writeup of a wedding-feast showing how they use fire (and flame spells) as a setpiece. But this is what I have for the moment. Enjoy! Icevale Elves - Cultural Changes One peculiarity of the lands of Icevale is that their mountains are almost completely lacking in deposits of flint, quartz, magnesium, or any of the other spark-susceptible metals usually used in flint and steel kits. Because of this, the elves of Icevale have a much more difficult time making and keeping fires than inhabitants of other cultures, and prize it very highly indeed. They can still make and keep fires, of course. Bow drills can be used to spark a flame, though this is difficult and time-consuming (minimum of 10-15 minutes to do what a properly-handled flintstone can manage in about thirty seconds). Hot coals are kept and used to light new tinder, and most homes and villages have an insulated hearth for this purpose. A few elves travelling in the lands beyond Icevale have learned to carry and use flint, though the Spell of Preservation keeps the bulk of their kindred from adopting this. But the favored way for Icevale elves to start fires is with fire-magic of some kind, and this is the method used for all their rituals, ceremonies and celebrations. Because of this, the leaders and respected elders of the Icevale elves are almost always spellcasters of some kind. In an OD&D campaign, these elves have probably developed _Flame Burst_, described later. Icevale elves in a 3E campaign can be either divine or arcane spellcasters - clerics generally have the Fire domain as one of their two domains, while sorcerors and wizards learn such spells as _Burning Hands_ or _Flame Burst_ immediately. Druids are somewhat more rare, but can use such magics as _Produce Flame_ to assume a leadership role if they desire it. An Icevale wizard able to learn the _Fireball_ spell from an outer-world wizard could likely become an elder over several towns or possibly a warleader of the entire Icevale culture - though he would have to be careful that no possible rival learned the spell, either... The Mastery Duel A tradition unique to the Icevale elves, the Mastery Duel is a ritual trial by combat used to settle disagreements when no other method will serve. Though dueling in general is common in many cultures, the specifics of the Mastery Duel are somewhat unusual - only open flame may be used as a weapon. It may be created through either mundane or magical means, but nothing else may be used to strike at an opponent. Even among the Icevale people, Mastery Duels are rare - they are usually agreed to only as the final possible resolution to a grievance years or even decades in length. Once a Duel has been declared, the participants are kept apart for at least seven sleeps, and watched to ensure that neither comes to harm. During this time, either participant can choose to voluntarily leave the village, accepting defeat - this is a sentence of exile, though a bloodless one. If at the time of the Duel's announcement both participants still remain, they are led to the dueling site from opposite directions. Mastery Duels always take place in open clearings, away from villages, roads or hunting grounds, and covered with snow at least a foot in depth. The two participants take up positions on the opposite sides of the clearing, and clan elders and warriors form a ring around the edge - both judging the fighters, and keeping wild beasts from interrupting the duel. Once both participants are in position, the duel begins. As mentioned earlier, the only weapon allowed in the duel is fire. Each participant is given a burning torch as a weapon, which must remain lit - if it's extinguished, the participant forfeits. Leaving the clearing (willingly or unwillingly) or being reduced to half maximum HP also counts as a forfeit. Any attempt to use a weapon other than fire - bare hands, rocks, fallen branches, thrown or kicked snow, spells that are not fire-based - is a violation of the terms of the Mastery Duel, and can also result in a forfeit (though a first violation will usually simply result in a warning from the elders, unless the violation is extremely obvious). A Mastery Duel rarely results in death for either participant. The loser is under sentence of exile, and must depart the village after the next sleep; he is shunned until that time, with no other elf in the village willing to meet his gaze or speak to him. The victor is not in a much better situation - though he is officially not to blame, most of the village residents will look upon him with suspicion, and the loser's family will generally quietly mark him as an enemy. Even after the cause of the Mastery Duel itself is forgotten, the burn scars from the battle will remain on both participants, causing a lingering suspicion and mistrust. New Spell: _Flame Burst_ (Note: The description here is for 3E; porting the spell to OD&D is a simple matter of filing off the extra rule bits.) 1st-level sorceror/wizard spell Conjuration (Creation) [Fire] Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 action Range: Close (25 ft + 5 ft/2 levels) Duration: Concentration (up to 1 round/level, maximum of 8 rounds) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes This spell allows you to release small gouts of flame at a nearby target, one burst per round. This is sufficient to light a small fire in a campfire or hearth; multiple bursts cast in quick succession may be sufficient to start a larger bonfire, or set fire to a larger object (DM's discretion). If fired at a living target, each burst deals 1d4 points of fire damage. This spell requires caster concentration throughout its duration; if you take a different action during the spell's duration, concentration is broken and any additional bursts are lost. Individual bursts do not last more than an instant, and cannot be used for illumination or warmth on their own. Material Component: A twist of charred cloth or tinder. "The best lack all conviction, While the worst are full of passionate intensity." - W.B. Yeats, "The Second Coming" Rodger Burns ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:00:27 -0700 From: Rodger Burns Subject: Re: SoO Chris Cherrington wrote on September 09, 2003 9:51 AM: > > I have never liked the idea of the Nithian’s story line behind > the Spell of Obliteration. With everything left behind in > storylines, plots, evil monsters and the like, I want players to > discover an ancient hidden empire that has been destroyed by the > immortals. This can take players in all sorts of directions. > First the slightest change to the SoO, this does not erase the > memories of the Nithian’s existence, just the incredible magics > that they once held. What does this do with other nations? For > one, the elves forget how to build incredible forests from plains > vegetation. They also forget how to use the Rainbow Path to get > back home. Alphatians forget how to travel from their home world > or how to create their skyships for a couple hundred or so years. > Thothians and other colonies lose contact with each other, and > how to create or use their monolithic devices. Because the > immortals so thoroughly destroy Nithia, most cultures left behind > will soon disbelief they ever existed, and since nobody knows how > to recreate the great magics they once had, they never believe > anyone else could have been able to do it. Soon Nithia becomes a > lost world like Atlantis. Many sages speculate and fight over > the Tamoran ruins to actually be Nithian, or even the Oltec ruins > in the Savage Coast to be remnants that are Nithian. They would > even disbelief the Thothians claim to be part of ancient Nithia; > as if they were, they would have conquered Alphatia with their > great magics, and not be subject to Alphatia. Many secret > societies could be bred from “Ancient Lines of Kings”, creating a > plethora of secret cults, magecraft, and the like; many are > entirely false and maybe a few are real. Many elves and > Alphatians would have a good historical knowledge of Nithian > society, buried deep in long lost and forgotten libraries. This > type of hidden knowledge would give the elves of Alheim and the > Alphatians a really good excuse to war against Glantri on the > basis of evil magic. Most citizens of Glantri would be from lines th! > at never knew of Nithia’s existence. The Faedils of Glantri > probably left Alfheim because their view of magic was considered > too close to the ancient Nithians’. Of course it isn’t, but just > by saying so is a good reason to leave and avoid an elven witch hunt. > Hmm. I see two problems with this: 1. In canon, the Spell of Oblivion wasn't just about getting rid of the Nithians' magical powers; it was also about annihilating their corruption, debauchery, and general wickedness inspired by Entropy. Sure, they were powerful, but the thought of taking their power away and leaving the rest of the baggage they'd been lured into by Thanatos and co. around as an example is kinda twitchy. (If I were in Ixion's shoes, I wouldn't want to have to worry about stepping on some two-bit tyrant trying to recreate End Times-Nithian culture in his own secluded city-state every century or so!) Add to that the possibility that Thanatos and the Entropics will go on the propaganda path of "The Nithians built the greatest empire the world has ever _seen_, and they had _no_ mighty magics at all, just total ruthlessness and the backing of Entropy!" and they could get a short-term Big Lie effect able to topple more than one country. 2. I'm kind of worried about your thought of having the Spell of Oblivion wipe out *all* mighty magics in the Greater Brun area, even those not used by the Nithians. Having the Alfheim elves forget weather and terraforming magic, or the Alphatians lose the secrets of skyship construction, just because the *Nithians* had the bad taste to listen to Entropy, strikes me as a bit high-handed and callous. More to the point, how far does it go? Is this change going to set an upper historical time limit for *all* mighty magics on Mystara at 500 BC - because if they were created earlier, the Spell of Oblivion wiped the slate clean? Seems like this is a good way to accidentally erase all knowledge of quite a few Old Azcan or Lhomarrian megaspells off Mystara, which cuts back on campaigning a lot... I'd rather see some slight weakening of the canon Spell of Oblivion (say, maybe some writings or artifacts that the Alphatians kept outside the Prime, that got missed by the spell's first sweep - these then later got copied/stolen into the hands of PC-Tolerant Sage of Your Choice) rather than this flip. Just my 0.02 of a Federal Reserve Note. "The best lack all conviction, While the worst are full of passionate intensity." - W.B. Yeats, "The Second Coming" Rodger Burns ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:40:24 -0500 From: Stone Marshall Subject: Re: KW AC 2000?

Funny someone should mention this topic. Our gaming group is currently playing in AC 2003. I took the campaign from a former group that played untill AC 1298. We have a lot of changes, but it is still Mystara. The magic drain was corrected and Hule and other enemy nations have had 700 years to rebuild military forces and trade connections. We have only played the campaign for about 7 weeks on Sat. but we are having a good time and teaching 2 new people how to play ODnD. One is 10 and the other is 23.

                                                      Multizar the Mage

>From: Havard Faanes
>Reply-To: Mystara RPG Discussion
>To: MYSTARA-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
>Subject: [MYSTARA] KW AC 2000?
>Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:47:26 +0200
>
>So, since we are doing historical time periods. How
>about speculating about Mystaras future? I know there
>was an issue in Dragon, which did a modern version of
>Greyhawk. Would be fun to see Thyatian legions armed
>with automatic rifles, the Darokin Stock Exchange,
>Rockhome Clan-based Computer Companies, Glantri
>Technomagic, Alfheim Enviromental Activists etc etc...
>
>Anyone up for doing a take on this? :D
>
>Havard
>
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Compare Cable, DSL or Satellite plans: As low as $29.95. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:45:13 -0500 From: Aaron Nowack Subject: Re: KW AC 2000? Havard Faanes wrote: > So, since we are doing historical time periods. How > about speculating about Mystaras future? I know there > was an issue in Dragon, which did a modern version of > Greyhawk. Would be fun to see Thyatian legions armed > with automatic rifles, the Darokin Stock Exchange, > Rockhome Clan-based Computer Companies, Glantri > Technomagic, Alfheim Enviromental Activists etc etc... > > Anyone up for doing a take on this? :D > > Havard *delurk* Interestingly enough, one of the many, many Mystara projects I've though about doing but never did get around to actually putting virtual pen to electronic paper on was this one (though I never did settle on exactly what year to stick it in, I was thinking 15-1600 AC might be better). I believe I might have mentioned it at one point a long time ago - I seem to recall it sparked a mini-debate on why fantasy settings almost always had elves dying out, or some such. It never got very far, but what I was thinking was something along these lines: In AC 1200, the Second Great War is kicked off when the Hulean govenor of the Sayr Ulan province [by this point only the Darokinians still refer to it as Sind, and even they only when talking to the Rahadjara (sp?) in exile, who lives at Darokinian taxpayers' expense in a nice mansion in Akesoli] is assassinated, and all evidence points to Darokinain agents. Hule invades, Darokin calls in its allies, and a massive war ensues. Shortly thereafter, the on-again, off-again peace talks between the Alfheim elves and Shadow elves fall apart once again, and war soon breaks out between them as well. This time, many elven communities from all over the Known/Old World wind up involved. Both wars come to a sudden halt when, through unknown means possibly related to the fighting in the Canolbrath forest, the ancient magics regulating that region's climate go out of control. The end result is a world-wide drought, and the resulting massive famine leaves no country in any position to fight. Shortly thereafter, the Master of Hule vanishes, and the already strained Hulean empire begins to fragment. Centuries pass, and the world is... well, still recognizable, but very much changed from what it once was. The elves are believed to be extinct by most in the Known World, and the borders of Rockhome have been closed for generations, though dwarves can still be found in many places. The main powers, were as I recall: The Darokinian Hegemony - This nation still claims an unbroken line of political descent from the old Republic, though that claim is a bit suspect, given the number of coups, military quasi-dictatorships, and such that have passed. Despite the long-ago climate change, an excellent irrigation system still keeps its heartland one of the most fertile regions in the Known World. It's perhaps the most powerful nation in the Known World, and it covers what was once Darokin, Alfhiem, and the Five Shires. Kingdom of Norwold - If Darokin is the most powerful nation in the Known World, it is only because Norwold lies outside that region. The climate change was kind to this region, granting it warmer summers and shorter winters. Wise rulers have carefully shaped the once barbarous, frontier quasi-colony into a mighty nation. Adventure still abounds in the vast, untracked inland areas, though. Norwold's southern border is marked by several "Grand Duchy of Karameikos"-style vassals in what used to be Heldann and the Northern Reaches. Empire of Thyatis - This empire has long since passed its better days, having never quite recovered from the First Great War, much less the Second. It's overseas possesions are long lost, and it was unable to prevent Hattias from breaking away as well. Still, under its new, young Emperor, there are signs of new life in Thyatis. The legions are once again becoming famed as the mightiest army in the world, and mercenaries from the Ylari City-States flood the streets of Thyatis city. The only question seems to be where and when they will march, not if. "Karameikos" - The fledgling brotherhood between Thyatian and Traladaran is long ago sundered, and for centuries the dark woods of Karameikos have been watered with the blood of armies. At the moment, the Region is spilt between the Darokin-backed Protectorate of Traladara, based in Mirros, and the Thyatian Duchy of Karameikos, based in Kelvin. With Thyatis seemingly on the move once again, Darokinian "volunteers" have begun arriving in Traladara. "Broken Lands" - A loose federation of humanoid kingdoms stretches over what used to be called the Broken Lands, the Orclands, Ethengar, and parts of Rockhome. I never worked out many details, though. The Principalities of Glantri - Are still much the same, all things considered. However, hard-pressed by the humanoids surrounding them on most sides, they have been forced into a close alliance with (almost a vassalage to) the now-human Kingdom of Wendar.. Sind - Is now mostly desert, with a handful of city-states surviving along the main trade routes. Hule - A patchwork of city-states, kingdoms, and empires, almost all claiming to be led by the Master's true successors, and as a result, constantly at war with one another. The Hollow World - Thanks in part to Immortal intervention, is once again considered only a myth, if that. Elsewhere- I never did decide exactly what happened to Alphatia, Davania, the Savage Coast, or any of the other parts of Mystara. Hrm... that's a lot longer than I expected, and I probably forgot something too. I wonder how many people on this list remember me... it's been at least a year or two since I last posted here, and more since I did so regularly. :) -- Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/anowack/ (for now) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 23:31:44 -0500 From: Aaron Nowack Subject: A belated re-introduction Writing that last post seems to have suddenly ressurrected my long dormant interest in Mystara, which has suffered heavily from lack of time as I began pursuing my semi-successful "career" in anime-based fanfiction. Upon reflection, I think I want to fuel that interest, so I figured I'd make a semi-formal reintroduction. My name is Aaron Nowack, and I'm a Mystara-holic. :) Well, not quite, but I've been on the list for far longer than I would ever have thought. (Come to think of it, the list address was something like mystara@lists.io.com, I was in... eighth grade, and I posted from my dad's e-mail account he got through something called Physicians Online.) To help jog memories, I'm the one responsible for the "Complete Undersea Timeline" and its related portions in a couple of the Net Almanacs and the Houses of Darokin posts, as well as a number of other projects that never quite made it to the list. Hmm... I never did finish the revisions for Houses of Darokin, did I? I wonder where I stuck those files... -- Aaron Nowack "Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis." http://www.geocities.com/anowack/ (for now) ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 8 Sep 2003 to 9 Sep 2003 (#2003-221) **************************************************************