Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 7 Oct 2003 to 8 Oct 2003 (#2003-244) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 09/10/2003, 18:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 15 messages totalling 726 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. About Heldann (5) 2. Gnoll origins? (2) 3. Kubittes and Garganthuax (3) 4. Mishler's Carnifex history? (5) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:38:08 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: About Heldann I may have touched this subject before, but here goes... I understand that the Heldannic knights were introduced in the later commercial Mystaran products (was the Princess Ark the first one where they were mentioned?). But am I right in assuming that they have never been fully developed in the official products, and most of the material is fan-based? In the original stages of the development of Mystara Heldann was assumed to be under pretty scattered Antalian rule, a literal "freeholds". Even up to the Ethengar Gazetteer this seems to be true, if one reads the description on the Heldann league (they don't sound like the followers of Vanya to me). Now, when did the occupation of Heldann by the knights take place? I read through the interesting two timelines in the Vaults, and they place the occupation well before 1000 AC, tha original "starting year". So even the name Freiburg is created by the Knights. But is this a revision of the original idea? I don't remember where I got the notion that the Knights occupied the country after 1000 AC, during the WotI or its aftermath. (This would be more consistent with the earlier products.) Or do I remember totally wrong? Note: This is just out of antiquary interest, of course there can very well be two, three or twenty alternative histories of Heldann and the Knights. I myself never introduced the Knights into my campaign. I'm just interested in the evolution of Heldann in Mystaran lore. Ville ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:43:34 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Gnoll origins? The present discussion on the Kubitts reminded me of something. The Nithians are supposed to have created the gnoll race. This is somewhat inconsistent with the historical stuff in the Northern Reaches Gazetteer, where the first gnoll migrations take place well before Nithian era. Again, this is no major problem - especially since lot of the elder historical material in that Gazetteer doesn't fit well with the rest of the Mystaran products (stuff on the trolls and the giants especially). But if one would wish to rewrite history, perhaps the Northern gnoll invasions should take place about the same time as the invasion of the Traldar lands? Ville ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:29:40 +0200 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: About Heldann Ville V Lähde wrote: > I may have touched this subject before, but here goes... > > I understand that the Heldannic knights were introduced in the later > commercial Mystaran products (was the Princess Ark the first one where > they were mentioned?). But am I right in assuming that they have never > been fully developed in the official products, and most of the material is > fan-based? More or less. Most of the material we have on HK was developed by Bruce Heard (I assume for the planned HK book), but never published. > In the original stages of the development of Mystara Heldann was assumed > to be under pretty scattered Antalian rule, a literal "freeholds". Even up > to the Ethengar Gazetteer this seems to be true, if one reads the > description on the Heldann league (they don't sound like the followers of > Vanya to me). Yes, the original (X1) idea was that of Antalian holdings, possibly on the lines of historical Iceland. > Now, when did the occupation of Heldann by the knights take place? I read > through the interesting two timelines in the Vaults, and they place the > occupation well before 1000 AC, tha original "starting year". So even the > name Freiburg is created by the Knights. This was in order to back-fit the HK in Heldann with the HK in VotPA, which is itself set in 1000AC. > But is this a revision of the original idea? I don't remember where I got > the notion that the Knights occupied the country after 1000 AC, during the > WotI or its aftermath. (This would be more consistent with the earlier > products.) Or do I remember totally wrong? I don't remember this, but it may be just me. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:09:43 -0400 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: About Heldann > > From: Ville V Lähde > > I may have touched this subject before, but here goes... > In 313 AC, the Hattians revolted and were crushed by Emperor Alexian II. Some Hattians, not wishing to be crushed, flee Thyatis and go underground. This would not mean that Heldann is born overnight from this date, but more like the story of the Rus of Russia. Antalian clans see or hear of the great battles of a fierce warrior race, and invite them to help tame numerous other clans in their area. Over the years, many Hattians continue to help develope these clanholds, and establish larger bases of operations and consolodate their holdings. Eventually near more modern times, the local populace is still mostly pure Antallian, while the clanholds have developed more Hattian influence and culture. With advents in the worship of Vanya, the confederacy unites under one belief, and becomes more militant in Known World policies. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 14:12:29 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Kubittes and Garganthuax --- Rodger Burns wrote: > Um. There's established history on the Kubitts' > creation already. They were > created around AY 1050, by an Alphatian wizard named > Korubazunth. He > created them to be a race of spies and assassins, > and was their first > victim. (See the HW DM's Sourcebook, page 57.) =/ Ah, thanks! I didnt know there was a name and date set. Korubazunth it is then! I will update the story with this new info :) > Now, I'm as much a fan of making a good story and > linking different campaign > elements as much as anyone, but I also believe that > drastically rewriting > established history to do so is going a bit too far. > Besides, this junks one > of the only pieces of unique history the Kubitts > have, and makes them a lot > less dark and edgy. (IMC, the fact that Kubitts were > created as a mad > wizard's assassins is played to the hilt - Thanatos > and Hel have taken a > strong interest in them from the beginning, and > Alphaks has also started > meddling with them in the last few centuries or so.) Yep, bad research on my part. I like your further ideas with these guys. That makes them more interesting than just any other really short people... :) > Hmmm. This origin story makes me kind of twitch a > bit - probably because the > original recipients of the pegataur-creation magic > were unwilling. Given my > druthers, I'd probably prefer a setting in which a > band of breakaway Shiye > elves pulled themselves into the pegataur creation > process, under Nephele's > sponsorship and with Alphatian help. > (Here's a thought: link the pegataurs to the > *nucklavee*, the evil > death-dealing centauroids. If the nucklavee were > first created in Blackheart > around AY 1000, and Nephele decided to create a new > race to oppose them...) I like these ideas aswell! The nuckalavee have earlier been established as Nightmare creatures IIRC, but if the Blackhearters brought in ta large group at this time, the rest of your story would work. No Alphatian wizard would be neccesary, just some Alphatian Shyie elves. They would have to be very much "break-away" from the traditional trickster-type shyie though... > > > > Garganthuax > Hmmm. This gets messed up a bit if we use the > established creation date for > the Kubitts... but the change might work even > better. Have Garganthuax be > an apprentice researcher working with Korubazunth, > one who barely survived > the Kubitts' rebellion, and you've got an excellent > explanation for his > obsession, at least for the first century or so. Yep I agree. Now he can actually be Korubazunth's apprentice rather than just discovering the master's old scrolls. And whoops, yeah, more motivation is good too! Unless ofcourse, he instigated the rebellion to get rid of his master.... > (That, and I've got this sneaking idea for a > storyline revolving around one > particularly nasty Gargantua created specifically to > roam the world, seeking > out the Kubitts and eradicating 'those murderous > vermin'. Gargantuan > Beholder, maybe. ^_^) Sounds like the way he would do it! Even if he is behind the Kubitt rebellion, he would probably turn on them eventually. This Gargantuan beholder might have been transplanted into the HW along with the Kubitts by some balance obsessed immortal anyways... > It's entirely possible that they exiled him because > he was poking around the > Alphatian Behemoth, waaay down in the dark > underneath Alphatia. "Kick that > crazy archmage out, or move *everything* in the > Empire a good half-mile back > from the coast" would probably be an easy choice to > make, even for > Alphatians! :) Makes sense. Perhaps one of his colleagues knew about the Behemoth and realized that Garganthuax was showing a bit too much interest in the matter. The colleague took the matter to the Council who bannished the mad wizard before he could cause more damage. ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 14:16:17 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Kubittes and Garganthuax --- Rodger Burns wrote: > Um. There's established history on the Kubitts' > creation already. They were > created around AY 1050, by an Alphatian wizard named > Korubazunth. He > created them to be a race of spies and assassins, > and was their first > victim. (See the HW DM's Sourcebook, page 57.) =/ Ah, thanks! I didnt know there was a name and date set. Korubazunth it is then! I will update the story with this new info :) > Now, I'm as much a fan of making a good story and > linking different campaign > elements as much as anyone, but I also believe that > drastically rewriting > established history to do so is going a bit too far. > Besides, this junks one > of the only pieces of unique history the Kubitts > have, and makes them a lot > less dark and edgy. (IMC, the fact that Kubitts were > created as a mad > wizard's assassins is played to the hilt - Thanatos > and Hel have taken a > strong interest in them from the beginning, and > Alphaks has also started > meddling with them in the last few centuries or so.) Yep, bad research on my part. I like your further ideas with these guys. That makes them more interesting than just any other really short people... :) > Hmmm. This origin story makes me kind of twitch a > bit - probably because the > original recipients of the pegataur-creation magic > were unwilling. Given my > druthers, I'd probably prefer a setting in which a > band of breakaway Shiye > elves pulled themselves into the pegataur creation > process, under Nephele's > sponsorship and with Alphatian help. > (Here's a thought: link the pegataurs to the > *nucklavee*, the evil > death-dealing centauroids. If the nucklavee were > first created in Blackheart > around AY 1000, and Nephele decided to create a new > race to oppose them...) I like these ideas aswell! The nuckalavee have earlier been established as Nightmare creatures IIRC, but if the Blackhearters brought in ta large group at this time, the rest of your story would work. No Alphatian wizard would be neccesary, just some Alphatian Shyie elves. They would have to be very much "break-away" from the traditional trickster-type shyie though... > > > > Garganthuax > Hmmm. This gets messed up a bit if we use the > established creation date for > the Kubitts... but the change might work even > better. Have Garganthuax be > an apprentice researcher working with Korubazunth, > one who barely survived > the Kubitts' rebellion, and you've got an excellent > explanation for his > obsession, at least for the first century or so. Yep I agree. Now he can actually be Korubazunth's apprentice rather than just discovering the master's old scrolls. And whoops, yeah, more motivation is good too! Unless ofcourse, he instigated the rebellion to get rid of his master.... > (That, and I've got this sneaking idea for a > storyline revolving around one > particularly nasty Gargantua created specifically to > roam the world, seeking > out the Kubitts and eradicating 'those murderous > vermin'. Gargantuan > Beholder, maybe. ^_^) Sounds like the way he would do it! Even if he is behind the Kubitt rebellion, he would probably turn on them eventually. This Gargantuan beholder might have been transplanted into the HW along with the Kubitts by some balance obsessed immortal anyways... > It's entirely possible that they exiled him because > he was poking around the > Alphatian Behemoth, waaay down in the dark > underneath Alphatia. "Kick that > crazy archmage out, or move *everything* in the > Empire a good half-mile back > from the coast" would probably be an easy choice to > make, even for > Alphatians! :) Makes sense. Perhaps one of his colleagues knew about the Behemoth and realized that Garganthuax was showing a bit too much interest in the matter. The colleague took the matter to the Council who bannished the mad wizard before he could cause more damage. <> Im not up to date with the almanacs yet, so thanks for pointing this out for me. Any of your ideas are possible. Im not sure what the Almanac has revealed yet, but my story simply provides information with what the guy has been up to. He is most likely around today, and why not Norwold. In fact the idea of him having apprentices makes sense. This helps explain why there are so many Gargantua Creatures around. Perhaps he has a group of followers, but take all the credit for the work himself? Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 14:17:33 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Gnoll origins? --- Ville_V_Lähde > especially). > But if one would wish to rewrite history, perhaps > the Northern gnoll > invasions should take place about the same time as > the invasion of the > Traldar lands? This would make sense. If there was a humanoid invasion at an earlier point, it may have consisted of other humanoids such as bugbears... Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 14:19:52 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Kubittes and Garganthuax --- Chris Cherrington skrev: > I also belief that somewhere on that island exists a > gargantuan gorilla, given the whole natives and > giant wall theme of King Kong. Remember those old > Godzilla and Mothra movies? Other islands could be > inhabited by other weirder experiments gone haywire. > What was that Val Kilmer and Marlon Brando flick of > intelligent animal people? That would be a better > explantation of the rakasta on the Isle, an actual > new species, instead of primatized rakasta. A Gargantua Gorilla sounds good! Island of Doctor Moreau. Based on a novel by HG Wells IIRC. In any case its a good idea for one of the nearby islands. Garganthuax wouldnt be above creating something like that :) Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 14:40:14 +0200 From: Thibault Sarlat Subject: About Heldann for those interested, i have already started to work on a compiled and developped version of bruce Heard's writing in order to produce a Gazetteer for the HK... I already have many pages written by Bruce. Some by Geoff, and some other by me. Plus the map has just been remade anew...This will certainly takes some time, but i am willing to finish that project before june 2004. any help would be appreciated. Thibault Sarlat. ICQ 16622177. Personal homepage http://www.mystara.fr.st thibault.sarlat@wanadoo.fr ----- Original Message ----- From: "Giampaolo Agosta" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 10:29 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] About Heldann > Ville V Lähde wrote: > > > I may have touched this subject before, but here goes... > > > > I understand that the Heldannic knights were introduced in the later > > commercial Mystaran products (was the Princess Ark the first one where > > they were mentioned?). But am I right in assuming that they have never > > been fully developed in the official products, and most of the material is > > fan-based? > > More or less. Most of the material we have on HK was developed by Bruce Heard (I assume for the planned HK book), but never published. > > > In the original stages of the development of Mystara Heldann was assumed > > to be under pretty scattered Antalian rule, a literal "freeholds". Even up > > to the Ethengar Gazetteer this seems to be true, if one reads the > > description on the Heldann league (they don't sound like the followers of > > Vanya to me). > > Yes, the original (X1) idea was that of Antalian holdings, possibly on the lines of historical Iceland. > > > Now, when did the occupation of Heldann by the knights take place? I read > > through the interesting two timelines in the Vaults, and they place the > > occupation well before 1000 AC, tha original "starting year". So even the > > name Freiburg is created by the Knights. > > This was in order to back-fit the HK in Heldann with the HK in VotPA, which is itself set in 1000AC. > > > But is this a revision of the original idea? I don't remember where I got > > the notion that the Knights occupied the country after 1000 AC, during the > > WotI or its aftermath. (This would be more consistent with the earlier > > products.) Or do I remember totally wrong? > > I don't remember this, but it may be just me. > -- > > Giampaolo Agosta > > http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 18:06:13 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Mishler's Carnifex history? Where can I find James Mishler's Carnifex Timeline? Anyone? Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:08:40 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: About Heldann In answer to Ville's question, the Heldannic Knights didn't appear prior to VotPA, and the subsequent PWA series developed some backstory to retroactively fit the Mystaran version of the Teutonic Order into the established game world. Initially, according to Bruce, the Heldann Freeholds were to be based on Icelandic culture - and the native Heldanners could still be portrayed as such. IIRC, the official timelines from the PWA series has the Hattians arrive in AC 952, upon which they conquered the town of Haldisvall (the holding of the Haldis clan), razed it, and built it anew as Freiburg. Sometime around AC 954, they spread out and acquired the surrounding lands. So, if you follow only TSR materials, the Heldannic Order, as of AC 1000, has been entrenched in the area for up to 48 years - not an inconsiderable period of time, IMO. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:19:19 -0400 From: Geoff Gander Subject: Re: Mishler's Carnifex history? Havard wrote: > Where can I find James Mishler's Carnifex Timeline? > > Anyone? Try the following link in the Vaults: dnd.starflung.com/abkmoor1.html I think this is what you were thinking of. Geoff -- Geoff Gander, BA 97, MPA 02 Carnifex Loremaster/Mad Roleplayer Master of the Elemental Plane of Bureaucracy au998@freenet.carleton.ca : www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2091 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 19:43:09 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Mishler's Carnifex history? --- Geoff Gander : > Try the following link in the Vaults: > > dnd.starflung.com/abkmoor1.html > > I think this is what you were thinking of. Nope, there is supposed to be something before this. The timeline you list follows the destruction of the Carnifex. I know I have seen it before, but I cant find it on Staflung or Mystaros' page :( Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 14:41:40 -0500 From: George Hrabovsky Subject: Re: Mishler's Carnifex history? I think what you want is here: http://dnd.starflung.com/lore.html Hpe this helps, George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Havard Faanes" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Mishler's Carnifex history? > --- Geoff Gander : > > > Try the following link in the Vaults: > > > > dnd.starflung.com/abkmoor1.html > > > > I think this is what you were thinking of. > > Nope, there is supposed to be something before this. > The timeline you list follows the destruction of the > Carnifex. I know I have seen it before, but I cant > find it on Staflung or Mystaros' page :( > > Håvard > > ______________________________________________________ > Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ > Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 17:36:43 -0700 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Mishler's Carnifex history? I think I know the one you're looking for- the one that goes back millions of years? I've looked for it myself, actually, and haven't been able to find it. There were a couple of them, Mishler's went back (as I note) millions of years, and is more akin to RW versions of the dinosaurs, then DM came up with one that only went back thousands of years (he didn't like the idea of that much time, IIRC, and came up with something a little more in keeping with the condensed timelines of Mystara as revealed in the Hollow World boxed set), and Geoff came up with a couple of timelines based on later eras of Carnifex that meshed with some of his own work, and could be fit into either the DM 'short' timeline, or the Mystaros 'long' timeline. I think I have the original Mishler version on disk somewhere, and may even have found it once upon a time during the search- if I can find it, I'll repost. One thing's certain, though, I've never been able to find it in the archives. I think it's in some of the archives that aren't around any longer (the ones that used to be in one of the ftp sites, 96 or 97, I think.) Havard Faanes wrote:Nope, there is supposed to be something before this. The timeline you list follows the destruction of the Carnifex. I know I have seen it before, but I cant find it on Staflung or Mystaros' page :( ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 7 Oct 2003 to 8 Oct 2003 (#2003-244) **************************************************************