Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 16 Oct 2003 to 17 Oct 2003 (#2003-252) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 18/10/2003, 18:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 4 messages totalling 226 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. more almanac erratum 2. WotI rules:"Mystic Special Abilities" worth 3 slots? (3) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:06:42 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Harri_M=E4ki?= Subject: more almanac erratum hi, I have now managed to reach first net almanac and found there some inconsis= tencies conserning Nithia. In 1013 group of Nithians went to find the Book = of Amon. They found it in the Tower of Sekhaba and in the ensuing fight Per= mun was killed and Djemun lost her mind. I know that insanity could be cure= d but Permun should be dead not still as a Vizier of Ramose. And other thing about Nithia. Al-Belak, southern king, was on the side of S= enkha in a civil war between her and Ramose. I'm pretty sure that Ramose co= uldn't be so lenient after winning the war that he would have allowed Al-Be= lak to stay as a king. Nothing else this time. Harri ............................................................ Maksuton s=E4hk=F6posti aina k=E4yt=F6ss=E4 http://luukku.com Kuukausimaksuton MTV3 Internet-liittym=E4 www.mtv3.fi/liittyma ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:50:09 -0700 From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: WotI rules:"Mystic Special Abilities" worth 3 slots? I agree that they must have valued the Mystic Special Abilities at 3 point because of the "Gentle Touch" ability but the question then becomes is it "really" as powerful as to be worth more than a powerful 2point power choice like dragon form? The fact that it is only usable 1/day and only on those who have lesser HD than the PC really weakens it (at least in my eyes) as once it is used it can no longer be used the rest of the day. As a result, very, very few victims will be affected by such an ablity as it is up to the PC In addition, considering that the vast majority of PC adversaries that actually have less HD than they do will not be the major villains of the campaign means that any victims of this ability will generally be minor villains and sideshow encounters at best. Not to mention that Gentle Touch fails completely on adversaries stronger than the PCs. Being the evil DM that I am, my enemies are usually stronger than the PCs anyways. :) Dragon Form at 2 slots I feel is a major bargain. Aside from the dragon breath weapons which are usable 2/day and the flying abilities, and increased movement rates given by Dragon Form, it is really the combat abilities afforded by this power choice that really is the cherry on the sundae. Most important, the fact that you can get such a powerful offense from dragon form *without* a 1/day or 2/day limit is what in the *long run* makes it much more powerful and useful than "mystic special abilities." A level 1 PC Immortal with mystic special ablities can only attack twice a round and therefore average about 45 hp damage a round not including strength/magical bonuses. With mystic special abilities even a Hierarch Immortal can at most attack 4 times a round with 3d12 damage (average about 90 total hp damage per round) not including strength/magical bonuses With dragon form, on the other hand, a level 1 Immortal already has better combat abilities than even the aforementioned Hierarch. A PC Immortal choosing this ability would attack 9 times a round- twice with 6d8 damage and 7 with 2d8 hp damage (averaging about 117 hp damage a round) not including strength/magical bonuses. And under standard WotI rules since mystic special abilities is worth 3 slots that leaves room only for one more 1 slot ability. Dragon Form, a bargain at 2 slots, still leaves room for say Grand Mastery + Leech or whatever combination of 2 slots the PC desires really making an Immortal powerhouse. I just don't see in the long run (or even in the short term) how Mystic Special Abilities is more powerful than Dragon Form? Being that "Gentle Touch" is really an "all" or "nothing" ability usable only 1/day and on weaker adversaries, and Dragon Form gives the Immortal the most complete and balanced offense out of any ability usable on anybody as often as one wishes, how can the Mystic Special Abilities option really measure up to it? If mystic special abilities is weaker than dragon form how can it possibly be worth a full 3 slots?? Lancer Rodger Burns wrote: I'm fairly sure that Mystic Special Abilities got valued at 3 points because of the Gentle Touch ability. The "I hit you, if your HD are lower than mine you die, no save allowed" effect. (It's *fortunately* usable only once per day.) A rules mod to allow Immortals (only) to save versus Physical Attacks for half damage would probably lower this ability's value to 2. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:29:59 -0700 From: Rodger Burns Subject: Re: WotI rules:"Mystic Special Abilities" worth 3 slots? Ramses Ramirez wrote on Friday, October 17, 2003: > > > I agree that they must have valued the Mystic Special Abilities > at 3 point because of the "Gentle Touch" ability but the question > then becomes is it "really" as powerful as to be worth more than > a powerful 2point power choice like dragon form? > > The fact that it is only usable 1/day and only on those who have > lesser HD than the PC really weakens it (at least in my eyes) as > once it is used it can no longer be used the rest of the day. As > a result, very, very few victims will be affected by such an > ablity as it is up to the PC > In addition, considering that the vast majority of PC > adversaries that actually have less HD than they do will not be > the major villains of the campaign means that any victims of this > ability will generally be minor villains and sideshow encounters > at best. Not to mention that Gentle Touch fails completely on > adversaries stronger than the PCs. Being the evil DM that I am, > my enemies are usually stronger than the PCs anyways. :) I guess that's a gaming choice. As the alternative, I'd observe that a player who makes opportunities to use the Gentle Touch can do very very nasty things with it. If Asterius (who has Mystic Special Abilities as a power choice) gets annoyed at the immortal Rafiel, he can wait until Rafiel is on his home plane, ambush the other immortal, and annihilate him utterly with a successful Gentle Touch. I'd submit that saying "this power isn't useful because of my DMing style" is not a particularly safe thing to do in an Immortals campaign. :) The characters just have too much power and ability to do their own thing. > > Dragon Form at 2 slots I feel is a major bargain. Aside from the > dragon breath weapons which are usable 2/day and the flying > abilities, and increased movement rates given by Dragon Form, it > is really the combat abilities afforded by this power choice that > really is the cherry on the sundae. Most important, the fact that > you can get such a powerful offense from dragon form *without* a > 1/day or 2/day limit is what in the *long run* makes it much more > powerful and useful than "mystic special abilities." > > A level 1 PC Immortal with mystic special ablities can only > attack twice a round and therefore average about 45 hp damage a > round not including strength/magical bonuses. With mystic special > abilities even a Hierarch Immortal can at most attack 4 times a > round with 3d12 damage (average about 90 total hp damage per > round) not including strength/magical bonuses > > With dragon form, on the other hand, a level 1 Immortal already > has better combat abilities than even the aforementioned > Hierarch. A PC Immortal choosing this ability would attack 9 > times a round- twice with 6d8 damage and 7 with 2d8 hp damage > (averaging about 117 hp damage a round) not including > strength/magical bonuses. Yeah, the physical attacks usable by a high-level immortal in Dragon Form are impressive. Add in the bonuses off a 70 Strength (which is what the Great One has), and you get about 225 damage per round. However, a simple _fireball_ spell dropped by an equally high-level Immortal does an average of 280 damage, can be further enhanced with a "Spell Damage Bonus" artifact, and is available to all Immortals for no power choices at all. (And yes, there's an A-M roll for the spell - but there are also attack rolls for the Dragon Form attacks, often at rolls of 15 or higher for each.) > > And under standard WotI rules since mystic special abilities is > worth 3 slots that leaves room only for one more 1 slot ability. > Dragon Form, a bargain at 2 slots, still leaves room for say > Grand Mastery + Leech or whatever combination of 2 slots the PC > desires really making an Immortal powerhouse. > > I just don't see in the long run (or even in the short term) how > Mystic Special Abilities is more powerful than Dragon Form? Being > that "Gentle Touch" is really an "all" or "nothing" ability > usable only 1/day and on weaker adversaries, and Dragon Form > gives the Immortal the most complete and balanced offense out of > any ability usable on anybody as often as one wishes, how can the > Mystic Special Abilities option really measure up to it? If > mystic special abilities is weaker than dragon form how can it > possibly be worth a full 3 slots?? > I'd say that with Immortals, 'weakness' and 'strength' of two abilities can't be evaluated in a vacuum. Uniqueness plays a large part - something which allows an Immortal to do something that no spell or artifact can manage (which the Gentle Touch does, and the Mind Block and Awareness abilities also manage) is definitely going to be more valuable than an ability which simply provide an alternate threat for something that existing spells do well. There are definitely abilities out there which are overvalued or undervalued (Height Increase/Decrease, anyone?), but Mystic Special Abilities are potent as well. My $0.02, anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:04:35 -0700 From: Ramses Ramirez Subject: Re: WotI rules:"Mystic Special Abilities" worth 3 slots? > I guess that's a gaming choice. As the alternative, I'd observe that a > player who makes opportunities to use the Gentle Touch can do very very > nasty things with it. If Asterius (who has Mystic Special Abilities as a > power choice) gets annoyed at the immortal Rafiel, he can wait until Rafiel > is on his home plane, ambush the other immortal, and annihilate him utterly > with a successful Gentle Touch. I'd submit that saying "this power isn't > useful because of my DMing style" is not a particularly safe thing to do in > an Immortals campaign. :) The characters just have too much power and > ability to do their own thing.Yes, you can theoretically destroy a lower-level Immortal utterly with Gentle Touch but I don't think the scenario is feasible in practice. An Immortal such as Asterius with Mystic Special Abilities can technically go to Rafiel's home plane and snuff him out of existence but what would the consequences be of such an action? Even if a Council of Hierarchs does not condemn the behavior certainly other Immortal allies of Rafiel would more than likely retaliate. Although Rafiel did not have many compatriots, Ordana (a powerful Hierarch friend of Rafiel)or another member of the Sphere of Eenrgy would probably take action or at the very least keep his/her eyes pealed. If the assassin was powerful, Ordana would probably ask for Ilsundal, Calitha, ,Mealiden's, or even Ixion’s aid. Certainly, an *extremely* irate Ilsundal would hand Asterius' butt back to him, if somehow he destroyed his most loyal ally Mealiden Starwatcher for instance. Another example --- anyone crazy enough to obliterate Koritiku would most probably be expecting grief from Ixion, Ka, AND Terra. I know I would NOT want to be the hapless Immortal to be hunted across the multiverse by 3 of the most powerful Hierarchs in existence!A final example is the WotI module itself where we see several Immortals flocking towards the defense of Rad from an indignant Ixion. As a result, I'd reckon that using Gentle Touch to take out a disliked Immortal on his home plane probably would be deemed very unlikely as a course of action. Most Immortals have such a good network of allies and associates (not too mention that every Immortal is a member of a particular "Sphere") that any sort of abuse of such an ability would more than likely offend someone more powerful than the assassin Immortal himself. > Yeah, the physical attacks usable by a high-level immortal in Dragon Form > are impressive. Add in the bonuses off a 70 Strength (which is what the > Great One has), and you get about 225 damage per round. However, a simple > _fireball_ spell dropped by an equally high-level Immortal does an average > of 280 damage, can be further enhanced with a "Spell Damage Bonus" artifact, > and is available to all Immortals for no power choices at all. (And yes, > there's an A-M roll for the spell - but there are also attack rolls for the > Dragon Form attacks, often at rolls of 15 or higher for each.)True, magic spells are powerful but not *that* powerful! :) I believe u made a little error, as all us humans do. The damage that a 40HD Immortal (like the Great One) would do with a fireball is actually only 40d6 (I think you doubled the HD to 80d6 damage) which would come out to an average of about 140 hp damage per round. Depending on whether you are fighting only one opponent or a circle of opponents the 140hp fireball can be more effective or less than the 225 hp damage attack through Dragon Form. The Dragon Form attack is clearly more powerful when fighting single opponents. If you play AD&D Mystara, you would also have to worry about casting times and you can deal damage every round in physical combat rather than every 2-3 rounds due to casting times with magical combat. > I'd say that with Immortals, 'weakness' and 'strength' of two abilities > can't be evaluated in a vacuum. Uniqueness plays a large part - something > which allows an Immortal to do something that no spell or artifact can > manage (which the Gentle Touch does, and the Mind Block and Awareness > abilities also manage) is definitely going to be more valuable than an > ability which simply provide an alternate threat for something that existing > spells do well. There are definitely abilities out there which are > overvalued or undervalued (Height Increase/Decrease, anyone?), but Mystic > Special Abilities are potent as well. > My $0.02, anyway.I agree with you completely about the Uniqueness aspect. However, when you look at how close-knit Immortals are in their particular organizations, alliances, and what not using an ability such as Gentle Touch to obliterate an Immortal would be suicidal. This is why Immortals work behind the scenes and slowly plot the demise of their enemies instead of going through direct personal confrontation. Everything being equal the DM has the final say in re-balancing a game that has gone out of control due to the actions of a homicidal PC Immortal. The DM is certainly not being unjust in "teaching the PC a lesson" by sending a group of the deceased-Immortals allies to HIS home plane and see how HE likes oblivion. At any rate, I think Gentle Touch is impractical in the sense of destroying Immortals outright (for the reasons given above).. Unless of course a bully Immortal wishes to take out an unknown Initiate like Benekander. I do think, however, that the ability would be somewhat powerful in self-defense in temporarily banishing a silly Immortal to his home plane. I would think however that the silly Immortal would learn his lesson not to mess with the Immortal a second time. As a matter of fact, I would argue that Immortals know the general abilities and strengths of their enemies and allies.. enough that they are smart enough not to doublecross their more powerful comrades with the Mystic Special Abilities power choice. It is just too much of a pain to wait endlessly regenerating in your home plane.. No Immortal finds that a pleasant experience. So my question that I pose again is ..Is Mystic Special Abilities "really" worth 3 points? And why? If it is, what am I forgetting or not considering? Why is it considered more powerful than Dragon Form? Thanks for your input so far Rodger! Your points did really make me think a while! Lancer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 16 Oct 2003 to 17 Oct 2003 (#2003-252) ****************************************************************