Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 13 Nov 2003 to 17 Nov 2003 (#2003-270) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 18/11/2003, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 7 messages totalling 442 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Traldar and their Immortals (7) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 10:49:58 +0100 From: Felix Holtschoppen Subject: Traldar and their Immortals Hi everyone! I've got some questions again. I don't know whether this has been discussed here before, but I was really wondering how the Mystarans, especially the Traldar view their Immortals. It's pretty obvious that they're not Gods but rather exalted beings like perhaps the heroes and demi-gods of Myth. This is at least the case with the younger Ones like the Traldar Three and Al-Kalim, since they're historical figures as well as Immortals and the legends and religious beliefs refer to their ascendancy to Immortal status. Nevertheless those thousands of years old Immortals could be viewed as gods, since they were there even before recorded (as by most nowaday Mystarans) history. Now, if a cleric of an Immortal does not see him as a god, what is their relation? And what does the cleric believe to be "above" his Immortal? Its sponsor Immortal? In the case of Karameikos there is a dilemma not solved in the GAZ. The Gaz states at one point in the player section (p. 3) that the Traldar were "favored by the Immortals" and that "the Immortals" elevated Halav, Petra and Zirchev. In the DM section there's a passage that reads "In Traldar legendry, the Immortals created the world from a roiling, chaotic mass" etc. Now, who do the Traldar believe these Immortals to be? Vanya, Ilsundal and Odin because they were the sponsors of the Traldar Three? This seems highly unlikely, since these Immortals have nearly nothing to do with the Traldar people. Next point: How was the world created as far as the common Traladaran populace and lower clergy is concerned? Definitely not by Halav, Petra etc. What I'm aiming at is: how much does your average Priest know about the five spheres, composition of the Prime and other Planes etc.? Does anyone have ideas on this? Any help is appreciated :-) Greetings, Felix ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:47:23 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Felix Holtschoppen wrote: > > Now, if a cleric of an Immortal does not see him as a god, what is > their relation? And what does the cleric believe to be "above" his > Immortal? Its sponsor Immortal? Hi. I think the Mystaran Immortals are seen as gods. The fact that they once were mortals may be known or not -- certainly older Immortals like Ixion or Thanatos are not considered to have ever been mortals by their followers. For younger Immortals, they may be seen as mortals or demigods ascended to godhood, not unlike Herakles or the Dioskouroi in ancient Greece. These heroes were worshipped as gods, but were thought to have lived in the "recent" past, so that nobles claimed to be their descendants. > Now, who do the Traldar believe these Immortals to be? Vanya, > Ilsundal and Odin because they were the sponsors of the Traldar > Three? This seems highly unlikely, since these Immortals have > nearly nothing to do with the Traldar people. Ixion, Thanatos and Khoronous, for example, have "Traldar" names (or at the very least, Milenian names). In antiquity, it was not uncommon for the current major gods not to be considered the creator gods -- Zeus was not a creator god, for example. > Next point: How was the world created as far as the common Traladaran populace and lower clergy is concerned? Definitely not by Halav, Petra etc. IIRC, someone proposed an early Traldar pantheon, the Tarsian Twelve. Myself, I see this as a good solution for the early Traldar people, as well as for background myths for the modern Traladara and Milenia. > What I'm aiming at is: how much does your average Priest know about the five > spheres, composition of the Prime and other Planes etc.? Almost nothing directly, though they probably have a metaphorical understanding of the basics: i.e., there is place where the dead go and/or a place where the gods live. Certain spells may give the caster the ability to reach these realms, etc. Less advanced civilizations may see these places as physical regions -- e.g., the stone age Traldar might have seen the Malpheggi Swamp or the Nithian desert as the Land of the Dead. Advanced civilizations would consider these places as metaphysical regions, therefore acknowledging the existance of other levels of reality. Only the most knowledgeable people (high-level wizards and priests), tough, would understand the nature and layout of the Planes. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles > > populace and lower clergy is concerned? Definitely not by Halav, > Petra etc. IIRC, someone proposed an early Traldar pantheon, the Tarsian Twelve. Myself, I see this as a good solution for the early Traldar people, as well as for background myths for the modern Traladara and Milenia. > What I'm aiming at is: how much does your average Priest know about > the five spheres, composition of the Prime and other Planes etc.? Almost nothing directly, though they probably have a metaphorical understanding of the basics: i.e., there is place where the dead go and/or a place where the gods live. Certain spells may give the caster the ability to reach these realms, etc. Less advanced civilizations may see these places as physical regions -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:39:17 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals --- Felix Holtschoppen wrote: > Hi everyone! [How Traldars view their Immortals] This is an incredibly interesting topic, and one that has been bothering me for the last 10 years... I agree with Giapolo that the difference between Gods and Immortals is marginal. However, Immortals range from the incredibly powerful ones to the younger and weaker ones. These, younger immortals are usually seen more as Saints, Spirits or Demi-Gods. Some are believed to have been human once, others not. It is believed that once a person reaches Immortality, he is changed in such ways that his once being mortal doesn't matter much anymore. In any case, no "normal" mortal can achieve immortality anyways, since it requires the performance of impossible feats to be counted as one of the Immortals. The idea that the possibility of achieving immortality is kept secret for characters untill they reach a certain level is just silly. However, reaching high levels means that the character is capable of things normal people are not, hence see the above. The exact sponsor of an immortal is not neccesarily known to mortals. This is at least true for Traladarans. Traladarans are aware of Older Immortals and have a wide range of Immortals and spirits that they worship. However, only the Three are now in the center of their religion. The Older ones are just names and vague myths, and rhymes uttered by old people.... > Next point: How was the world created as far as the > common Traladaran > populace and lower clergy is concerned? Definitely > not by Halav, Petra etc. IMC, the Old Ones is also a phenomenon known by mortals. These were the "Gods" who created the world before leaving it to younger "Gods" to take over, as in mortal lives, younger generations take over after the older. > What I'm aiming at is: how much does your average > Priest know about the five > spheres, composition of the Prime and other Planes > etc.? The Five Spheres dont make much sense anymore IMO. Immortal Pantheons are spread across the Spheres, and individual portfolios are much more important than Sphere connection. What is important is the division between Entropy and the rest. I dont like the word entropy either, so I prefer Death or Chaos, although neither of those are just right. Perhaps Infernal... As for the Planes, some things should be known about this. If you use 3e, base this on how many ranks they have in the Knowledge (Planes) skill. If you use OD&D or AD&D, just base it on the Clerics level. At lower level (or rank), just a very vague knowledge is posessed. Clerics focus on the Prime Plane and the Realms of the Immortals (Ie Astral) and the Halls of their Patron within the Immortal Realms (Astral). At high ranks, most details will be known to the Cleric. This is not information granted magically, but as the Cleric gains ranks, he will be given access to more information by his church. Clerics should know as much as Wizards about the Planes, although Wizards are often more interested in the Ethereal and the Elemental plans wereas Clerics often are more interested in the Planes of the Immortals. Clerics may have other names for the planes than Wizards use, but will usually be able to identify the Wizardly names of the planes aswell. > Does anyone have ideas on this? Any help is > appreciated :-) The above are just my own interpretations obviously. :) Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:29:34 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Havard Faanes wrote: > > The idea that the possibility of achieving immortality > is kept secret for characters untill they reach a > certain level is just silly. However, reaching high > levels means that the character is capable of things > normal people are not, hence see the above. Agreed. Obviously, at least some Immortals are acknowledged as "gods" and known/believed to have been mortals -- Halav & Co., of course. > The exact sponsor of an immortal is not neccesarily > known to mortals. This is at least true for > Traladarans. Also, the concept of sponsor may not be clear, and/or legends may arise about the interest shown by existing Immortals in the character. > Traladarans are aware of Older Immortals and have a > wide range of Immortals and spirits that they worship. > However, only the Three are now in the center of their > religion. The Older ones are just names and vague > myths, and rhymes uttered by old people.... There may be a mythology about this older immortals, but they may be considered inactive, old, or simply distant/aloof. > As for the Planes, some things should be known about > this. If you use 3e, base this on how many ranks they > have in the Knowledge (Planes) skill. If you use OD&D > or AD&D, just base it on the Clerics level. Or, better, on his Sage Knowledge (Planes or Theology) NWP. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:31:44 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals --- Giampaolo Agosta skrev: > Havard Faanes wrote: > Agreed. Obviously, at least some Immortals are > acknowledged as "gods" and known/believed to have > been mortals -- Halav & Co., of course. Yes. And I think it is natural to assume that this goes beyond Traladara and includes most Mystaran cultures. > > The exact sponsor of an immortal is not > neccesarily > > known to mortals. This is at least true for > > Traladarans. > > Also, the concept of sponsor may not be clear, > and/or legends may arise about the interest shown by > existing Immortals in the character. I think the general idea should be that a mortal can become Immortal if the other Immortals accept it. Although it may seem logical to have a friend/sponsor among them, this requirement and others are not generally known. (Nor are they entirely true, as there are many ways to achieve immortality these days...) [Older Traladaran Immortals] > There may be a mythology about this older immortals, > but they may be considered inactive, old, or simply > distant/aloof. I think they are known, especially the ones who used to be the major ones. However, there are no Clerics of these Immortals (or at least very few). The general understanding should be that the Immortals left the Three in charge of the wellbeing of the Traladarans, and these have been the center of the faith ever since. Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:04:34 +0000 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Havard Faanes wrote: > >> Agreed. Obviously, at least some Immortals are >> acknowledged as "gods" and known/believed to have >> been mortals -- Halav & Co., of course. > > Yes. And I think it is natural to assume that this > goes beyond Traladara and includes most Mystaran > cultures. Certainly many of them. Some may have only or mostly old immortals, or may consider younger immortals as saints, but not gods. >> Also, the concept of sponsor may not be clear, >> and/or legends may arise about the interest shown by >> existing Immortals in the character. > > I think the general idea should be that a mortal can > become Immortal if the other Immortals accept it. Yes, though each culture may have a set of requirements: for example, Renardois Saimpts may be declared by the church, and a few Saimpts may not even be true immortals. The fact that Immortals give spells may limit this effect, but an immortal may use these pseudo-immortals as alternate identities. > Although it may seem logical to have a friend/sponsor > among them, this requirement and others are not > generally known. (Nor are they entirely true, as there > are many ways to achieve immortality these days...) Agreed. > [Older Traladaran Immortals] > >> There may be a mythology about this older immortals, >> but they may be considered inactive, old, or simply >> distant/aloof. > > I think they are known, especially the ones who used > to be the major ones. However, there are no Clerics of > these Immortals (or at least very few). IMO, these immortals would have only a clergy of pantheists (shared with the main Traladaran immortals). Since pantheists are quite common in Mystara, a lot of different options are open for older immortals, false immortals, and so on. Bye, GP -- di nuovo come un tempo sopra l'Italia intera urla il vento e soffia la bufera ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:09:50 +0100 From: Felix Holtschoppen Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Havard Faanes wrote: > Traladarans are aware of Older Immortals and have a > wide range of Immortals and spirits that they worship. > However, only the Three are now in the center of their > religion. The Older ones are just names and vague > myths, and rhymes uttered by old people.... > > IMC, the Old Ones is also a phenomenon known by > mortals. These were the "Gods" who created the world > before leaving it to younger "Gods" to take over, as > in mortal lives, younger generations take over after > the older. Although I personally don't like the idea of mortals (except extremely high-level ones) ever having heard of the Old Ones as described in WotI, the rumours about ancient Gods are a brilliant thought. I am definitely going to use this for my campaign, together with the Tarsian Twelve (by James Mishler). Nevertheless the two ideas about the higher strata of the hierarchy could be combined. There might be rumours about those Gods/Immortals who went before the "modern" Immortals and that these were the creators of the world. But common belief might identify these (erroneously) with the "older" Immortals (under different names perhaps), whose mortal identities are long forgotten. Thus in the case of the Traldars most of the (mid- to highlevel) clergy believe that the Tarsian Twelve revered by the Traldars of the Golden Age created the world and gave Immortality to the Traldar Three. They could even call them "The Old Ones" or "The Elder Gods" or whatever, not being aware that there really are entities mightier even than the Immortals. Why should something even the oldest Immortals know next to nothing about (ie the Old Ones) be even remotely known to 'mere' mortals? Just my tuppence, anyways. Bye, Felix ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 13 Nov 2003 to 17 Nov 2003 (#2003-270) ****************************************************************