Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 17 Nov 2003 to 18 Nov 2003 (#2003-271) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 19/11/2003, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 14 messages totalling 745 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Traldar and their Immortals (12) 2. Hel and his followers (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:37:42 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Years ago I pondered the same questions when writing the basics of our still ongoing campaign. The interesting thing about the Traldar three and their origins is of course that the DM=B4s history betrays their real origins. Whereas the religious history of the Traldar people states that the Gods gave the Traldar their new skills to help them battle the beastmen (gnolls), in fact it was the Hutaakans who taught their slaves the advanced skills. The Hutaakans just abandoned them to their fate. So, although the Traladara talk about the ancient gods, in fact one doesn't need to have any reality behind that. In game-terms, the Traldar three achieved Immortality after their long conflict with the gnolls. - Well, of course in game-terms they still would need other Immortal Patrons, but those could have been discovered during the long struggle against the gnolls, and not be some older object of worship. - This would fit two things. First of all, the Traldar were Nithians. The= y were old Nithian emigrees who lost most of their intellectual and cultura= l heritage after the fall of Nithia. So there wouldn't be any deep mythological basis fot their new culture. Second, the long occupation byt the Hutaakan culture imposed the Pflarr religion on the Traldar. So, any religion that would either develop or survive under their rule would have to follow the Plfarr line or be a insurrectionary religion. I think it would fit very well that Halav, Petra and Zirchev had been fighting against the Hutaakans a longer time before the Beastman invasion, and had found Immortal support during that time. Ville ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 04:10:45 -0800 From: SUBSCRIBE MYSTARA-L Lothlann Subject: Hel and his followers Hi to all, i looking for some information about Hel, mainly to the conduct of his followers. What are the relations that a follower of Hel has with other people? what kind of domain can take a priest of Hel in the 3.5 D&D rules? Someone can explain me the concept of death for a cleric of Hel? Byez ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:09:31 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals --- Ville_V_Lähde skrev: > > Whereas the religious history of the Traldar people > states that the Gods > gave the Traldar their new skills to help them > battle the beastmen > (gnolls), in fact it was the Hutaakans who taught > their slaves the > advanced skills. The Hutaakans just abandoned them > to their fate. So, > although the Traladara talk about the ancient gods, > in fact one doesn't > need to have any reality behind that. In game-terms, > the Traldar three > achieved Immortality after their long conflict with > the gnolls. I think the "truth" is somewhere in between this. The relationship between the Hutakaans and the Traldar was never a clear cut relationship between slaves and masters. Many Hutakaans genuinely wanted to help the Traldar. But since the Traldar were basically reduced to stone-age level at that time, the Hutakaans came to see them as inferior, this eventually leading to using the Traldar as slaves. What the Hutaakans taught the Traldar is unknown. I suspect that the Hutakaans kept the secret of bronze working to themselves in fear of a Traldar revolt. Halav either stole this secret from the Traldar or discovered it himself, bringing this weapon into the war against the Gnolls. IMC Halav also made a pact with Fairy, gaining allies there to defeat the Gnolls. This is tied to the nature of Haven today. > - Well, of course in game-terms they still would > need other Immortal > Patrons, but those could have been discovered during > the long struggle > against the gnolls, and not be some older object of > worship. Possibly. People always have some sort of religion though, although given their stone age technology, their religion may also have been more spirit-oriented, something Traladarans show a tendency towards even today. > - This would fit two things. First of all, the > Traldar were Nithians. They > were old Nithian emigrees who lost most of their > intellectual and cultural > heritage after the fall of Nithia. So there wouldn't > be any deep > mythological basis fot their new culture. Second, > the long occupation byt > the Hutaakan culture imposed the Pflarr religion on > the Traldar. So, any > religion that would either develop or survive under > their rule would have > to follow the Plfarr line or be a insurrectionary > religion. I think it > would fit very well that Halav, Petra and Zirchev > had been fighting > against the Hutaakans a longer time before the > Beastman invasion, and had > found Immortal support during that time. The Traldar were as I understand not true Nithians, but a culture always living on the border of Nithia, although greatly influenced by that culture. But otherwise I agree with you. If the Traldar religion had been reversed to spirit worship, then after contact with the Hutakaans, many started following the Nithian gods again (not limited to Pflarr), but sometimes using different names for their Immortals. However, after the emergance of Halav & Co as Immortals, older patrons were mostly abandoned in favour of the Three as the older patrons were too closely associated with the former slave owners. OTOH, many old concepts from the Nithian legends remained. My theory is that most "modern" religions, mainly the Thyatian/Karameikan faith, the Traladaran Faith and the Eternal Truth are derived from the old Nithian religion, although blurred by time and the Spell of Oblivion. These religions also have much in common that separates them from other KW religions. KW Groups of Religion: 1) Post-Nithian Faiths: (Thyatian/Karameikan/Ylari/Traldar) 2) Northman Pantheon 3) Spirit Worship (Ethengar, Athruagin, Traladara includes Great Spirits aka Immortals. Local variants) 4)Nonhuman Religions (Elven, Dwarven, Old Hin Faith, Goblinoid etc. These are different faiths with very distinct differences) Group 1 which is the most interesting in this respect, includes many variations, but also similarities between the religions. These are the ones who have a world view similar to what is described in the D&D rulebooks, and have elements drawn from Greco-Roman religions mixed with Judeaism/Christianity/Islam, such as Heaven/Hell, Good/Evil, Sins/Redemption, etc etc... Thoughts? Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:14:04 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals --- Felix Holtschoppen wrote: > Although I personally don't like the idea of mortals > (except extremely > high-level ones) ever having heard of the Old Ones > as described in WotI, the > rumours about ancient Gods are a brilliant thought. > I am definitely going to > use this for my campaign, together with the Tarsian > Twelve (by James > Mishler). Nevertheless the two ideas about the > higher strata of the > hierarchy could be combined. There might be rumours > about those > Gods/Immortals who went before the "modern" > Immortals and that these were > the creators of the world. But common belief might > identify these > (erroneously) with the "older" Immortals (under > different names perhaps), > whose mortal identities are long forgotten. Thus in > the case of the Traldars > most of the (mid- to highlevel) clergy believe that > the Tarsian Twelve > revered by the Traldars of the Golden Age created > the world and gave > Immortality to the Traldar Three. They could even > call them "The Old Ones" > or "The Elder Gods" or whatever, not being aware > that there really are > entities mightier even than the Immortals. Why > should something even the > oldest Immortals know next to nothing about (ie the > Old Ones) be even > remotely known to 'mere' mortals? I agree with you on most of this. My reason for being more willing to share information on topics like the Old Ones is simply that I have grown to dislike most DM secrets. Especially the ones that aren't very interesting for the Players to discover anyways. Thats why the Old Ones is considered common "knowledge" by most people from the Thyatian/Ylari/Traladaran/Karameikan religions IMC, although they do not fully understand what this means, nor do they realize that even the Immortals aren't sure if the Old Ones exist or not... Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:12:43 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals In response to Havard's last mail: Of course, you are quite right in stating that the reality of the Traldar - Hutaakan -relationship may have been very diverse. It is especially interesting where the Bronze age technology came from, since that could involve a more benign hutaakan faction, perhaps even supporting some other deity? That could again open up more venues of though. Zirchev has been linked to lycantropic and canine races, could his interest in these areas derive from a "heretic" Hutaakan faction?? The Fairy connection is even more fascinating, since as you say, it gives a good opportunity at fleshing out the history of Haven. Haven has always remained a bit aloof, since it was "imported" to Karameikos from the earlier versions of Silver Princess. >> - Well, of course in game-terms they still would need other Immortal >> Patrons, but those could have been discovered during the long struggle >> against the gnolls, and not be some older object of worship. > > Possibly. People always have some sort of religion though, although given > their stone age technology,their religion may also have been more > spirit-oriented, something Traladarans show a tendency > towards even today. All too true, but in D&D one should keep in mind the distinction of "having a religion" (a cultural phenomenon) and a religion that has a basis in Immortal phenomena (a metaphysical phenomenon) - the latter I see as a prerequisite for the Traldar three to gain Immortality. (IMC I have used an old Nithian deity who guided her people away from the Empire and erased their connections to Nithian culture, as she saw the coming crisis. In the early stages of the Traldar culture she encouraged a new religion based on her worship, but was forced to retreat to the mists of history by the coming of Pflarr. Later on she decided to hide her existence behind the "facade" of the Traladara three.) Ville ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:31:17 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Ville V Lähde wrote: > > Of course, you are quite right in stating that the reality of the Traldar > - Hutaakan -relationship may have been very diverse. It is especially > interesting where the Bronze age technology came from, since that could > involve a more benign hutaakan faction, perhaps even supporting some other > deity? I don't think Pflarr is a malevolent deity. Rather, it is the Hutaakan survivors in the Lost Valley who are as a degenerated example of their culture as the Traldar of the valley. Certainly the old Hutaakans had streaks of cowardy and laziness, but they were a generally decent people, and due to the origin of Pflarr, they might have even started their interaction with the Traldar with the best intentions. > That could again open up more venues of though. Zirchev has been > linked to lycantropic and canine races, could his interest in these areas > derive from a "heretic" Hutaakan faction?? IIRC, this is stated in the Gaz: Zirchev is represented with animalistic features because he was raised by the Hutaakans, and learned magic from them. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:02:32 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Hel and his followers SUBSCRIBE MYSTARA-L Lothlann wrote: > Hi to all, Hi, > i looking for some information about Hel, mainly to the conduct of his > followers. What are the relations that a follower of Hel has with other > people? This depends on the specific region. In most regions, Hel would just be another Entropic Immortal, therefore worshipped by the usual variety of deranged individuals. There are a few regions where the cult is more widespread, namely the Northern Reaches and Sind. In Sind, Hel is a Kali-like deity. His following should be based on the RW Thugees. For ideas, I recommend (since you're Italian) the novels by Salgari, especially "I misteri della giungla nera". They should be out of copyright by now, so you can find them on liberliber or other free-ebooks projects. In the Northern Reaches, Hel is quite different. While its following is probably hidden, Hel's doctrines have some impact, as the resurrected are considered undead by the locals. Anyway, you might have a look at Legends & Lore for AD&D for ideas (it is available for free download at the WotC website). > what kind of domain can take a priest of Hel in the 3.5 D&D rules? Here I can't help you -- I'm not into 3E. Anyway, her portfolio covers almost only death and reincarnation. > Someone can explain me the concept of death for a cleric of Hel? See the abovementioned sources. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:27:56 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals --- Giampaolo Agosta skrev: > Ville V Lähde wrote: > > > > > Of course, you are quite right in stating that the > reality of the Traldar > > - Hutaakan -relationship may have been very > diverse. It is especially > > interesting where the Bronze age technology came > from, since that could > > involve a more benign hutaakan faction, perhaps > even supporting some other > > deity? > > I don't think Pflarr is a malevolent deity. Rather, > it is the Hutaakan survivors in the Lost Valley who > are as a degenerated example of their culture as the > Traldar of the valley. > Certainly the old Hutaakans had streaks of cowardy > and laziness, but they were a generally decent > people, and due to the origin of Pflarr, they might > have even started their interaction with the Traldar > with the best intentions. I agree. The first meeting between Hutakaans and Traldar was one with good intentions on both sides, but it gradually changed and the Hutakaans became decadent some time before they entered the Lost Valley. (At least one generation I'd say). > > That could again open up more venues of though. > Zirchev has been > > linked to lycantropic and canine races, could his > interest in these areas > > derive from a "heretic" Hutaakan faction?? > > IIRC, this is stated in the Gaz: Zirchev is > represented with animalistic features because he was > raised by the Hutaakans, and learned magic from > them. Ah! I had forgotten about that! It would make sense that Zirchev was raised by a fraction or an individual that was more positively inclined towards humans than most Hutakaans would be by then. Come to think of it, I like the idea of two fractions among the Hutakaans. Perhaps a few even stayed to fight alongside the Traldar, but were killed and forgotten after that. Zirchev's Teacher definately would have stayed. Perhaps he was acting under the guidance of Pflarr to try and correct some of the mistakes made by his now decadent people? Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:38:17 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals --- Ville_V_Lähde wrote: > - Hutaakan -relationship may have been very diverse. > It is especially > interesting where the Bronze age technology came > from, since that could > involve a more benign hutaakan faction, perhaps even > supporting some other > deity? That could again open up more venues of > though. Zirchev has been > linked to lycantropic and canine races, could his > interest in these areas > derive from a "heretic" Hutaakan faction?? Yep. See my reply to Giampaolo for my thoughts on that one. > The Fairy connection is even more fascinating, since > as you say, it > gives a good opportunity at fleshing out the history > of Haven. Haven has > always remained a bit aloof, since it was "imported" > to Karameikos from > the earlier versions of Silver Princess. I have tons of theories on this one, all linked with dozens of plot twists from my campaign. The link between Karameikos-Haven and Fairy is taken from Mystaros' Haven writeup. IMC Haven originally was the legendary home of Traldar, the Nithian Wizard who led his people to the lands who(in addtion to his people) later took its name from him. Think King Arthur/Merlin, Haven being Camelot. Traldar is also the creator of the Eye of Traldar. Oberon, King of Fairy then as now (possibly an identity of Faunus), agreed to aid Halav et Al. against the Gnolls, but demanded Haven as the price. Thus Haven now in part exists in Fairy and in part in Karameikos. The Seer is the current watcher of the Pact between Fairy and Halav. See my wold writeup of the Seer at Shawns site. The Seer also posesses the Eye of Traldar. > All too true, but in D&D one should keep in mind the > distinction of > "having a religion" (a cultural phenomenon) and a > religion that has a > basis in Immortal phenomena (a metaphysical > phenomenon) - the latter I see > as a prerequisite for the Traldar three to gain > Immortality. Good point. > (IMC I have used an old Nithian deity who guided her > people away from the > Empire and erased their connections to Nithian > culture, as she saw the > coming crisis. In the early stages of the Traldar > culture she encouraged a > new religion based on her worship, but was forced to > retreat to the mists > of history by the coming of Pflarr. Later on she > decided to hide her > existence behind the "facade" of the Traladara > three.) I like this idea alot! Especially the part about her plan to rid the Traldarans of corrupt Nithian influence. Could this deity have been Vanya? Was Vanya worshipped by the Nithians? Pflarr does not neccesarily have to be her adversary, since we should leave some room for mortal interraction too. Perhaps Pflarr wanted to help, but messed it up? Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:50:28 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Havard Faanes wrote: > >> IIRC, this is stated in the Gaz: Zirchev is >> represented with animalistic features because he was >> raised by the Hutaakans, and learned magic from >> them. > > Ah! I had forgotten about that! It would make sense > that Zirchev was raised by a fraction or an individual > that was more positively inclined towards humans than > most Hutakaans would be by then. This is quite likely. It is pretty clear that Zirchev was raised in a lightly inhabited place (he developed hunting skills), possibly without contact with humans. Perhaps there were more insular (but less decadent) Hutaakan communities that had little contact with the subjugated humans, and had therefore not developed prejudices towards them. > Come to think of it, > I like the idea of two fractions among the Hutakaans. > Perhaps a few even stayed to fight alongside the > Traldar, but were killed and forgotten after that. > Zirchev's Teacher definately would have stayed. Not necessarily: while they might have been well meaning and helpful, they might have been constrained in their actions by the decrees of the High Priestess of Pflarr, as well as by a certain cowardy, or by the removal of Hutaakans that where to be preserved in the Hollow World (I would think it was the less decadent faction that was preserved). Also, if Zirchev's teacher did not live near to the humans, perhaps Zirchev was actually sent to help the Traldar (perhaps he was raised in the Lost Valley itself). > Perhaps he was acting under the guidance of Pflarr to > try and correct some of the mistakes made by his now > decadent people? That is likely, indeed. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:52:20 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Havard Faanes wrote: > > I like this idea alot! Especially the part about her > plan to rid the Traldarans of corrupt Nithian > influence. Could this deity have been Vanya? Was > Vanya worshipped by the Nithians? No, Vanya did not exist at the Time, IIRC. Wasn't she a Kerendan princess in the times of the Milenian Empire? Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:31:13 -0800 From: Daniel Gioffre Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals The relationship between the Traldar/Traladarans and the Immortals has always been a matter of some interest to me. I agree with those who said that a distinction has to be made between the _reality_ of the Immortals' doings (as the DM would know) and what is believed by PCs/NPCs in the game. Also, I think that a distinction needs to be made between what the primitive Traldar believed and what is taught by the present-day (AC 1000) Church of Traladara (which didn't organize in its modern form until fairly recently). My solution to this whole mess is the following: the early Traldar obviously worshipped the same (or most of the same) deities as the HW Milenians, yes? Even accounting for the fact that the Traldar were not united politically, it seems reasonable that they possessed a least some commonalities of religion. But these gods are no longer worshipped in modern Traladara, their worship being supplanted by the Three who gained Immortality around the time of the gnoll invasion; they are not even mentioned _by name_ in any source that I know of. My conclusion is that _current_ Traladaran religion holds that the Three were the only gods _ever_ worshipped by the Traldar; they are "read back" into their earliest myths and stories. So it is they who are both responsible for the creation of the world and who entered the world in some kind of fantasy pseudo-incarnation at the time of their people's greatest need. Keep in mind that the gnoll war totally shattered Traldar culture. The rapid ascendance of the Three to a position of preeminance doesn't seem to me like much of a stretch considering what was going on at the time. Of course, this doesn't answer the question of how the Traldar came to have their old "Milenian" gods considering that they were clearly of Nithian stock. I leave that question to more erudite minds. -Dan ===== "Feanor began to love the Silmarils with a greedy love, and grudged the sight of them to all save to his father and his seven sons; he seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own." -J.R.R. Tolkien, Quenta Silmarillion __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:56:15 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals > > From: Giampaolo Agosta > > Havard Faanes wrote: > > > > > I like this idea alot! Especially the part about her > > plan to rid the Traldarans of corrupt Nithian > > influence. Could this deity have been Vanya? Was > > Vanya worshipped by the Nithians? > > No, Vanya did not exist at the Time, IIRC. Wasn't she a Kerendan princess in the times of the Milenian Empire? > Wasn't there a female diety in B9? She had an artifact in the form of a healing silver goblet, bell or candle? Its been a long time. I believe it was a bell. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:02:10 -0800 From: Daniel Gioffre Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Chardastes (and it's a bell). She's a member of the Karameikan pantheon (though native to Traladara). -Dan --- Chris Cherrington wrote: > > > > From: Giampaolo Agosta > > > > Havard Faanes wrote: > > > > > > > > I like this idea alot! Especially the part about > her > > > plan to rid the Traldarans of corrupt Nithian > > > influence. Could this deity have been Vanya? > Was > > > Vanya worshipped by the Nithians? > > > > No, Vanya did not exist at the Time, IIRC. Wasn't > she a Kerendan princess in the times of the Milenian > Empire? > > > Wasn't there a female diety in B9? She had an > artifact in the form of a healing silver goblet, > bell or candle? Its been a long time. I believe it > was a bell. > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 17 Nov 2003 to 18 Nov 2003 (#2003-271) ****************************************************************