Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 18 Nov 2003 to 19 Nov 2003 (#2003-272) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 20/11/2003, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 16 messages totalling 759 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Traldar and their Immortals (12) 2. Pflarr (Was: Traldar and their Immortals) (2) 3. Chardastes (was: Traldar and their Immortals) (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:15:31 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals I didn't mean that Pflarr would be a malevolent deity as such, merely malevolent towards the Traldar for historical reasons. Or at least that could be read out of my comments. But still, you are quite right in noting that a more multifaceted picture of Pflarr is much more intriquing - Pflarr acting through Zirchev's teacher, perhaps even teaching the Three their new skills? (So there wouldn't be any other Immortal patrons of the three than Pflarr? An interesting possibility.) Plflarr's origins were also mentioned. Alas, either I haven't come across that article in the Vaults or that official product which discusses Pflarr, but I don't have any information on Pflarr except that some see him/her/it as a Nithian deity. Could someone fill me in here? Also I'd like to know the sources where this info comes from. Fan-based or official? If you check my campaign scheme the Division of Five in tha Vaults, you can find some idas on the location where Zirchev was trained. However, at that time the idea didn't occur to me that he could have had a Hutaakan teacher. Damn, that would have really added spice to the campaign. It's a shame, but I've never properly read the Eye of Traldar and Dymrak stuff. I only got the chance to glance at them a year ago, and of course by now none of that stuff is useful to me anymore. The stuff about the Eye, the Seer, the Dragon of Dymrak and others would have added a lot to my campaign, especialy during the time we were playing Night's Dark Terror. Ville ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:15:42 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Ville V Lähde wrote: > Pflarr acting through Zirchev's teacher, perhaps even teaching the Three > their new skills? (So there wouldn't be any other Immortal patrons of the > three than Pflarr? An interesting possibility.) It is indeed possible, especially in Zirchev's case. I'm not sure if there are established sponsors for the Traladaran Three, though. > Plflarr's origins were also mentioned. Alas, either I haven't come across > that article in the Vaults or that official product which discusses > Pflarr, but I don't have any information on Pflarr except that some see > him/her/it as a Nithian deity. Could someone fill me in here? Also I'd > like to know the sources where this info comes from. Fan-based or > official? 1650 BC (source: HW, 12) Pflarr is said to have achieved immortality during the period 1750 BC to 1500 BC although no more direct indication is given. Although Pflarr had to be of a high enough level to afford to create the Hutaakans in 1500 BC, therefore closer to 1750 BC seems a more likely answer. > If you check my campaign scheme the Division of Five in tha Vaults, you > can find some idas on the location where Zirchev was trained. However, at That's on my reading list... too bad my spare time will be near to non-existent for a while :( Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:13:11 +0100 From: Felix Holtschoppen Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > It is indeed possible, especially in Zirchev's case. I'm not sure if there are established sponsors for the Traladaran Three, though. Yes there are :-) Halav -> Odin Petra -> Vanya Zirchev -> Ilsundal Bye, Felix ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:52:58 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Felix Holtschoppen wrote: > >> It is indeed possible, especially in Zirchev's case. I'm not sure if there >> are established sponsors for the Traladaran Three, though. > > Yes there are :-) Ok. > Halav -> Odin > Petra -> Vanya > Zirchev -> Ilsundal Uhm, Vanya became immortal circa 600 BC, when Petra had been immortal for at least 3 centuries. Ok, they're Time Immortals, but still... -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:14:53 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > > Halav -> Odin > > Petra -> Vanya > > Zirchev -> Ilsundal > > Uhm, Vanya became immortal circa 600 BC, when Petra > had been immortal for at least 3 centuries. > Ok, they're Time Immortals, but still... Yep, there is a problem with Vanya. Some sources say she achieved immortality 600 BC, but others claim she is older. Her rank would probably indicate she is older than Petra (IIRC). Wasn't there some suggestions that she was indeed Immortal long before this and that her activities in Kerendas BC 600 were simply through a mortal identity? If she did not sponsor Petra (Petranida IMC), then who did? Personally, I have no strong opinions on the matter, but I would like to get a satisfactory explaination. Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:32:39 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Pflarr (Was: Traldar and their Immortals) --- Ville_V_Lähde skrev: > I didn't mean that Pflarr would be a malevolent > deity as such, merely > malevolent towards the Traldar for historical > reasons. Or at least that > could be read out of my comments. But still, you are > quite right in noting > that a more multifaceted picture of Pflarr is much > more intriquing - > Pflarr acting through Zirchev's teacher, perhaps > even teaching the Three > their new skills? (So there wouldn't be any other > Immortal patrons of the > three than Pflarr? An interesting possibility.) What if the whole Traldar situation was Pflarr's plot from the start. A project that failed completely. Pflarr was the one Immortal with enough knowledge of Nithia to foresee its destruction. This is why he lead the Traldar Clan to Proto-Karameikos in the first place. He then sent them through plague and famine to remove all Nithian "taint". After this Time of Torment, he created his own race, the Hutakaans to be teachers and protectors of the Traldar. However, the Hutaakans did not fulfill the role intended for them by Pflarr and chose to dominate the Traldar instead. The fraction responsible for this was the Master Fraction. Zirchevs master was one of the small fraction (The Mentor Fraction), who actually followed Pflarr's instructions. I like your idea that Zirchev was sent by the Mentor Hutaakans to aid Halav. > Plflarr's origins were also mentioned. Alas, either > I haven't come across > that article in the Vaults or that official product > which discusses > Pflarr, but I don't have any information on Pflarr > except that some see > him/her/it as a Nithian deity. Could someone fill me > in here? Also I'd > like to know the sources where this info comes from. > Fan-based or > official? Pflarr was a servant creature created by Nithian Wizards. The same wizards soon after tried to duplicated the process, but failed creating the Gnoll. Pflarr later achieved Immortality, whereas the Gnoll race grew out of control, multiplied and eventually scourged the world. Pflarr, the Gnoll and the Traldar seem forever linked to eachother... > If you check my campaign scheme the Division of Five > in tha Vaults, you > can find some idas on the location where Zirchev was > trained. However, at > that time the idea didn't occur to me that he could > have had a Hutaakan > teacher. Damn, that would have really added spice to > the campaign. URL for the Division of Five? I see you have produced quite a bit of interesting stuff for Karameikos that I havent read yet. I'll get started on it right away. Would you mind revealing the location of Zirchevs training grounds? :) > It's a shame, but I've never properly read the Eye > of Traldar and Dymrak > stuff. I only got the chance to glance at them a > year ago, and of course > by now none of that stuff is useful to me anymore. > The stuff about the > Eye, the Seer, the Dragon of Dymrak and others would > have added a lot to > my campaign, especialy during the time we were > playing Night's Dark > Terror. What I wrote was extrapolation of hints here and there, mainly from B10, Eye of Traldar, and Who is Who Among Dragons. The Eye of Traldar module itself is utter crap, but introduced me to the Seer (barely mentioned there), but who has come to play an essential role IMC. Lately, one of the PCs tragically killed the Seer and took his place, which caused my campaign to take a totally different pace when it was actually nearing its conclusion. I love it when my players surprise me! :) Anyways, I'm not too happy with the way much of my stuff is currently presented in the Vaults and I hope to make some serious revisions of it. This debate is providint tons of ideas! Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:35:58 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Chardastes (was: Traldar and their Immortals) --- Daniel Gioffre wrote: > Chardastes (and it's a bell). She's a member of the > Karameikan pantheon (though native to Traladara). Chardastes (funny, I always thought it was a guy) is originally mentioned to be a member of the Church of Karameikos, but this was revised and she is according to WotI a member of the Traladaran Church, although a minor one. AFAIK , she was not yet around at the time of the Gnoll invasion, but is a later addition to the Pantheon and not one of the Three. Idea: Perhaps Petra was her sponsor and she is now referred to as the Handmaiden of Petra? Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:42:50 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals --- Daniel Gioffre wrote: > The relationship between the Traldar/Traladarans and > the Immortals has always been a matter of some > interest to me. I agree with those who said that a > distinction has to be made between the _reality_ of > the Immortals' doings (as the DM would know) and > what > is believed by PCs/NPCs in the game. Also, I think > that a distinction needs to be made between what the > primitive Traldar believed and what is taught by the > present-day (AC 1000) Church of Traladara (which > didn't organize in its modern form until fairly > recently). That is a good point. IMO the modern Church of Traladara is very different from what religion the Pre-Halav Traldar had. > My solution to this whole mess is the following: the > early Traldar obviously worshipped the same (or most > of the same) deities as the HW Milenians, yes? Even > accounting for the fact that the Traldar were not > united politically, it seems reasonable that they > possessed a least some commonalities of religion. This is a possibility, although the Milenian religion may have evolved in the years after this people left Brun. Id like to sit down and compare what Immortals are worshipped in HW Nithia and HW Milenia. It would actually make sense if many of these Immortals are the same, even if referred to by different names. Does anyone have more info on this redily available? > But these gods are no longer worshipped in modern > Traladara, their worship being supplanted by the > Three > who gained Immortality around the time of the gnoll > invasion; they are not even mentioned _by name_ in > any > source that I know of. My conclusion is that > _current_ > Traladaran religion holds that the Three were the > only > gods _ever_ worshipped by the Traldar; they are > "read > back" into their earliest myths and stories. So it > is > they who are both responsible for the creation of > the > world and who entered the world in some kind of > fantasy pseudo-incarnation at the time of their > people's greatest need. Well, this could work if these Immortals were the Old Traladaran Immortals who at the time before the Invasion allowed themselves to be reborn as mortals and returned to Immortality once they had saved their people. Im getting associations to Jesus, Buddha etc etc.... > Keep in mind that the gnoll war totally shattered > Traldar culture. The rapid ascendance of the Three > to > a position of preeminance doesn't seem to me like > much > of a stretch considering what was going on at the > time. Agreed. > Of course, this doesn't answer the question of how > the > Traldar came to have their old "Milenian" gods > considering that they were clearly of Nithian stock. > I > leave that question to more erudite minds. See my question on the Nithian vs Milenian Pantheons above. Anyone? Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:46:31 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Havard Faanes wrote: > >>> Halav -> Odin >>> Petra -> Vanya >>> Zirchev -> Ilsundal >> >> Uhm, Vanya became immortal circa 600 BC, when Petra >> had been immortal for at least 3 centuries. >> Ok, they're Time Immortals, but still... > > Yep, there is a problem with Vanya. Some sources say > she achieved immortality 600 BC, but others claim she > is older. Her rank would probably indicate she is > older than Petra (IIRC). Wasn't there some suggestions > that she was indeed Immortal long before this and that > her activities in Kerendas BC 600 were simply through > a mortal identity? That's possible, but consider that Vanya is very active, much more than Petra: she has extended her worship to a large (and somewhat fanatical) following in Thyatis, Heldann and the Savage Coast. Therefore her rank would be more than justified even if she was only 16 centuries old. Also, Vanya and Petra seem to me to have rather opposite portfolios. Vanya is concerned with conquest, while Petra with defence. Why would then Vanya sponsor Petra? > If she did not sponsor Petra (Petranida IMC), then who > did? Personally, I'd say Khoronus -- a powerful, elder Time Immortal, and, IIRC, the leader of the Tarsian Twelve. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:11:06 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: identity? > > That's possible, but consider that Vanya is very > active, much more than Petra: she has extended her > worship to a large (and somewhat fanatical) > following in Thyatis, Heldann and the Savage Coast. > Therefore her rank would be more than justified even > if she was only 16 centuries old. I can accept that. > Also, Vanya and Petra seem to me to have rather > opposite portfolios. Vanya is concerned with > conquest, while Petra with defence. > Why would then Vanya sponsor Petra? I was thinking that they are both Warrior Women. Close enough to have some things to talk about atleast? ;) > > If she did not sponsor Petra (Petranida IMC), then > who > > did? > > Personally, I'd say Khoronus -- a powerful, elder > Time Immortal, and, IIRC, the leader of the Tarsian > Twelve. These are possible. If we accept my ideas about Pflarr (see other mail), perhaps Pflarr himself was her sponsor and the one providing spells for her when she ressurrected Halav? (Note: In OD&D she must have been level 36 and have a wis of 18 to have done this. No chick I would have messed with...!) Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:24:57 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Havard Faanes wrote: > >> Also, Vanya and Petra seem to me to have rather >> opposite portfolios. Vanya is concerned with >> conquest, while Petra with defence. >> Why would then Vanya sponsor Petra? > > I was thinking that they are both Warrior Women. Close > enough to have some things to talk about atleast? ;) Uhm, Petra is not only an Immortal of War, she also covers most aspects of a "general purpose" goddess (hearth and women activities, IIRC). On the other hand, she is clearly aligned with the Traladarans, while Vanya is definitely opposed to them. >>> If she did not sponsor Petra (Petranida IMC), then >>> who did? >> >> Personally, I'd say Khoronus -- a powerful, elder >> Time Immortal, and, IIRC, the leader of the Tarsian >> Twelve. > > These are possible. > If we accept my ideas about Pflarr (see other mail), > perhaps Pflarr himself was her sponsor and the one > providing spells for her when she ressurrected Halav? There is a problem with this in that Pflarr is an Immortal of Energy, not Time. I think she was a Cleric of the Tarsian Twelve (or a Priestess of Khoronus). > (Note: In OD&D she must have been level 36 and have a > wis of 18 to have done this. No chick I would have > messed with...!) LOL! GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:37:09 -0500 From: Chris Cherrington Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals > > From: Felix Holtschoppen > > Yes there are :-) > Halav -> Odin > Petra -> Vanya > Zirchev -> Ilsundal > If Ilsundal was involved with Zirchev's sponsorship, that may re-inforce my theory of the Elves coming to Cannolbarth to help destroy Nithia. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:50:58 +0000 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Pflarr (Was: Traldar and their Immortals) Havard Faanes wrote: > > This is why he lead > the Traldar Clan to Proto-Karameikos in the first > place. He then sent them through plague and famine to > remove all Nithian "taint". After this Time of > Torment, he created his own race, the Hutakaans to be > teachers and protectors of the Traldar. The Hutaakans were created during the height of Nithia, and the Nithians were aware of their existance and origin, since they created the gnoll race to mirror Pflarr's work. The rest of the idea, though, would work fine anyway. Bye, GP -- di nuovo come un tempo sopra l'Italia intera urla il vento e soffia la bufera ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:01:28 -0800 From: Daniel Gioffre Subject: Re: Chardastes (was: Traldar and their Immortals) Havard, I thought that Chardastes was male too. The only write-ups about him that I know about are in B9 and in WotI...must check. Are you sure he is worshipped by the Traladarans? I'm pretty sure he was described in WotI as a native Traladaran Immortal worshipped by the Karameikans... Petra would make sense as a patron, considering that their "sphere of influence" overlaps. -Dan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:12:53 -0800 From: Daniel Gioffre Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Havard, > This is a possibility, although the Milenian > religion > may have evolved in the years after this people left > Brun. Oh, yes, undoubtedly (Halav is a member of their pantheon, IIRC). But this can be seen (from the DM's perspective) as an instance of a hero of the Traldar becoming in his Immortality a patron of his people (even those who bolted at the first sign of nasty hyena danger). I would guess that the others in that pantheon (Ixion et al.) were probably worshipped by the primitive (pre-Halav) Traldar. > Well, this could work if these Immortals were the Old > Traladaran Immortals who at the time before the > Invasion allowed themselves to be reborn as mortals > and returned to Immortality once they had saved > their people. Im getting associations to Jesus, > Buddha etc This is kind of what I'm getting at, except the belief of the Traladarans is not that they were "reborn" as mortals but rather that they assumed human form during the war. It's not exactly parallel to Christian beliefs (it's not an Incarnation)...I was thinking of something more along pagan lines. [Incidentally, it's clear from Gaz 1 that the gnolls had patrons of equal rank to the Traldar's patrons. I have a solution for that too, but that's another topic.] Side note: IIRC, the Red Steel sourcebook says that some the city-states to the east of the Savage Baronies were founded by Traladarans fleeing religious persecution in their homeland. Could this be those who did not accept the pre-deity of Halav, Petra, and Zirchev? -Dan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:34:03 +1300 From: Chris Furneaux Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals > > Also, Vanya and Petra seem to me to have rather > > opposite portfolios. Vanya is concerned with > > conquest, while Petra with defence. > > Why would then Vanya sponsor Petra? > > I was thinking that they are both Warrior Women. Close > enough to have some things to talk about atleast? ;) Vanya likes warriors (at least the victorious ones) so there is deffinatly some sence in it. > > > If she did not sponsor Petra (Petranida IMC), then > > who > > > did? > > > > Personally, I'd say Khoronus -- a powerful, elder > > Time Immortal, and, IIRC, the leader of the Tarsian > > Twelve. The previous discussion on Vanya and here mortal identity was centered around when she was a Jennite Warrior IIRC. I don't know the date of this tho. However she is an immortal of time, so there may be other ways to deal with the inconsistancy. Having said that heres a repost from a Ron Rogers/Ramses Ramirez post that may be of some use: >> This is a slight tangent.. but does anyone find >> it odd that Vanya espoused Petra for >> Immortality in the first place? Isn't that weird >> considering Petra's Milenian (and therefore >> Traldar) origins? Why would Vanya have just >> ignored that and sponsor her anyway knowing >this? > > This is a misprint/error ( found in the Hollow world materials IIRC). > Protius sponsored Petra. Petra was an immortal quite a while before > Vanya was. hope the input is of some use. Oh and I for one really enjoyed eye of traldar, although it was a bit short, it was fun to play. In terms of gamming matterial theres not really much info beyond what you encounter in the module. The eye of traldars powers arn't even fully specified. So unless you plan on playing it, it woun't be much use to you, just read harvards write ups of the seer and such which is much more then in the module. Dymark dead is crap. On a side note I am useing Argos as a major opponant IMC. Many powerful dragons are rather peeved at the PC's at the moment. But so are a lot of people. The only person they really have on their side is Stefan and thats only because he has no other reasonable choice, they are forcing his hand. Chris. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 18 Nov 2003 to 19 Nov 2003 (#2003-272) ****************************************************************