Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 19 Nov 2003 to 20 Nov 2003 (#2003-273) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 21/11/2003, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 17 messages totalling 1004 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Traldar and their Immortals (13) 2. Hutaakan Facts and Ideas 3. Chardastes (was: Traldar and their Immortals) 4. Lost Immortals (was Re: Traldar and their Immortals) 5. Immortals of the Northern Reaches ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:48:24 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Daniel Gioffre wrote: > > Side note: IIRC, the Red Steel sourcebook says that > some the city-states to the east of the Savage > Baronies were founded by Traladarans fleeing religious > persecution in their homeland. Could this be those who > did not accept the pre-deity of Halav, Petra, and > Zirchev? It is possible. However, note that in the Savage Coast the major modification to the Traladaran religion seems to be a greater role given to Halav w.r.t. the other two (see MA entry, e.g.). -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:13:39 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals > I'm not sure if there are established sponsors for the Traladaran Three= , > though. > Halav -> Odin > Petra -> Vanya > Zirchev -> Ilsundal > What does "established" mean in this case? Please please, don't misunderstand me, I'm not looking for some "carved in stone" official truth, but as I mentioned before, I haven't read most of the Mystara material after the GAZ series. So, did HW or WotI deal with Immortal sponsors in such a detailed way, or is this fan-based? This is again just an antiquarian interest. (Immortal sponsors..."Ok, boy. You'll get this Life Draining +5 Long Swor= d with Bloody Nasty Embellishments, if you agree to wear my 'I love Thanatos' T-Shirt during the reign of your dynasty.") BTW I never liked the idea of importing the Norse gods to the Mystaran mythos. It always rubs me the wrong way when I hear "Odin" in that context. (Perhaps also because the whole NR Gazetteer fits so badly with the whole setup.) Still, if one accepts Odin, it's feasible that he would sponsor a guy like Halav. Vanya (or someone like that, since pinpointing her origins is a pain in the ass) fits also well with Petra. But I'm uneasy about Ilsundal, as he is so centered on the elven race and its fortunes. Why would he sponsor Zirchev? Perhaps because of his connections to the animal kingdom? By the way, I forget: when did the elves come to proto-Karameikos? If we are writing an alternative version of the Traldar history, we shouldn't forget their influence in the developing religion. The spiritual elements might have origins there... > If she did not sponsor Petra (Petranida IMC), then who > did? I think thus far we have covered all the bases. There ara many satisfactory explanations (as H=E5vard put it). If one wishes to stick wi= th with the Immortal concepts and all its restrictions, the Three in any cas= e had to have some Immortal sponsors - as someone mentioned, they clearly don't belong to the elder Immortals whose origins are shrouded in the mists of History (like Thanatos). Many good alternatives have been proposed: 1) One of the older, major Immortals or a mix of them (see above) 2) A separatist Nithian deity 3) Pflarr - with many twists and turns 4) Some unknown benefactor who adopted the Traldar after their migration 5) A major figure of the original Traldar pepople who became an Immortal (of course he/she/it would have to have a Sponsor - the question about Immortals tends to resemble a matushka doll...) 6) The Three didn't have patrons, since they were incarnations of elder Traldar Immortals As I already said, IMC I used the alternative 2. But if I were writing up a new campaign, I'd favour alternative 3, since it offers so intriguing possibilities. > URL for the Division of Five? You can find Division of the Five at: http://dnd.starflung.com/5div.html The stuff in the following adress is linked to that campaing. http://dnd.starflung.com/tralmtem.html I places Zirchev's training grounds in the Riverfork keep area, since it tied very well with the local lycantropic infestations. > Chardastes (funny, I always thought it was a guy) is > originally mentioned to be a member of the Church of > Karameikos, but this was revised and she is according > to WotI a member of the Traladaran Church, although a > minor one. I agree, she doesn't sound like an elder deity. Chardastes is also one good example of the patchwork nature of Mystara. She became a part of the Karameikan lore only because the small adventure where she was introduced was combined into the B9 pack - and in B9 many generic adventures were a bit artificially hammered into Karameikos. If I remember correctly, Veile= d Society was the only one that was originally planned for Karameikos? Anyway, this seems like a good opportunity at collective writing: we coul= d write a nice article far the Vaults - "Alternative myhtological histories of the Traldar"? Ville ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:01:40 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Ville V Lähde wrote: >> I'm not sure if there are established sponsors for the Traladaran Three, >> though. >> Halav -> Odin >> Petra -> Vanya >> Zirchev -> Ilsundal > > What does "established" mean in this case? Please please, don't > misunderstand me, I'm not looking for some "carved in stone" official > truth, but as I mentioned before, I haven't read most of the Mystara > material after the GAZ series. So, did HW or WotI deal with Immortal > sponsors in such a detailed way, or is this fan-based? This is again just > an antiquarian interest. I think this paragraph from an earlier mail in this thread by Chris Furneaux might be of help: apparently, this info comes from the HW set. ---------- Having said that heres a repost from a Ron Rogers/Ramses Ramirez post that may be of some use: >> This is a slight tangent.. but does anyone find >> it odd that Vanya espoused Petra for >> Immortality in the first place? Isn't that weird >> considering Petra's Milenian (and therefore >> Traldar) origins? Why would Vanya have just >> ignored that and sponsor her anyway knowing >this? > > This is a misprint/error ( found in the Hollow world materials IIRC). > Protius sponsored Petra. Petra was an immortal quite a while before > Vanya was. ---------- > (Immortal sponsors..."Ok, boy. You'll get this Life Draining +5 Long Sword > with Bloody Nasty Embellishments, if you agree to wear my 'I love > Thanatos' T-Shirt during the reign of your dynasty.") LOL! > Petra. But I'm uneasy about Ilsundal, as he is so centered on the elven > race and its fortunes. Why would he sponsor Zirchev? Perhaps because of > his connections to the animal kingdom? By the way, I forget: when did the > elves come to proto-Karameikos? If we are writing an alternative version > of the Traldar history, we shouldn't forget their influence in the > developing religion. The spiritual elements might have origins there... Elves had been there since the times of Taymora (those who would become the Vyalia, Meditor and Verdier). The Callarii did not arrive until Mealiden's migration in 800 BC, 2 centuries after the gnoll invasion. Indeed, Pflarr would make a better sponsor for Zirchev, but Ilsundal is also one of the Tarsian Twelve. > 1) One of the older, major Immortals or a mix of them (see above) > 2) A separatist Nithian deity > 3) Pflarr - with many twists and turns > 4) Some unknown benefactor who adopted the Traldar after their migration > 5) A major figure of the original Traldar pepople who became an Immortal > (of course he/she/it would have to have a Sponsor - the question > about Immortals tends to resemble a matushka doll...) > 6) The Three didn't have patrons, since they were incarnations of elder > Traldar Immortals > > As I already said, IMC I used the alternative 2. But if I were writing up > a new campaign, I'd favour alternative 3, since it offers so intriguing > possibilities. I'd go for a mix of 1 and 3, Pflarr for Zirchev (who, not inappropriately, is also a patron of "intelligent social misfits") and two of the Tarsian Twelve for Halav and Petra (who represent more traditional values). >> Chardastes (funny, I always thought it was a guy) is >> originally mentioned to be a member of the Church of >> Karameikos, but this was revised and she is according >> to WotI a member of the Traladaran Church, although a >> minor one. > > I agree, she doesn't sound like an elder deity. Chardastes is also one > good example of the patchwork nature of Mystara. She became a part of the > Karameikan lore only because the small adventure where she was introduced > was combined into the B9 pack - and in B9 many generic adventures were a > bit artificially hammered into Karameikos. If I remember correctly, Veiled > Society was the only one that was originally planned for Karameikos? Yes. Veiled Society was clearly planned for Karameikos. The others were all very generic, and only Keep on the Borderlands and The Lost City were really fitted into the setting. Silver Princess was originally thought for Glantri, and then fitted to Karameikos. > Anyway, this seems like a good opportunity at collective writing: we could > write a nice article far the Vaults - "Alternative myhtological histories > of the Traldar"? Good idea. -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:37:14 +0100 From: Felix Holtschoppen Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals The information about the "official" sponsors of the Traldar Three can be found in the individual entries for Halav, Petra and Zirchev in WotI:Codex. I was also quite astonished when I saw them, which was one reason for my original question, since they don't really seem to fit. Protius seems like a good alternative to Vanya, since he not only belongs to the Tarsian Twelve but it is also highly probable that the coastal Traldar fishermen would worship him (under a different name maybe). Yes, the sponsoring technique makes the whole immortal theme feel like an infinite regress. Nevertheless there are the Old Ones who might have started it all and as recent events have shown sponsoring is just one way among others to immortality. Perhaps it's just a fairly new one (according to immortal standards), since all those ancient immortals don't seem to have needed a sponsor. I'm not arguing for a load of NoS-like devices strewn across Mystara. Rather I'd really love to hear some ideas what else could be sufficient to reach the immortal status without a sponsor and what other ways could be thought of... bye, Felix ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ville V Lähde" To: Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [MYSTARA] Traldar and their Immortals > I'm not sure if there are established sponsors for the Traladaran Three, > though. > Halav -> Odin > Petra -> Vanya > Zirchev -> Ilsundal > What does "established" mean in this case? Please please, don't misunderstand me, I'm not looking for some "carved in stone" official truth, but as I mentioned before, I haven't read most of the Mystara material after the GAZ series. So, did HW or WotI deal with Immortal sponsors in such a detailed way, or is this fan-based? This is again just an antiquarian interest. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:41:45 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Hutaakan Facts and Ideas According to the Lupin Article from Dragon Magazine, some Hutaakan stayed behind and did not enter their secret Valley. Some of these interbred with the Gnolls, the offspring eventually evolving into the Lupin Race. The novel, The Black Vessel mentions Hutaakans living alongside Gnolls on the Savage Coast and in fact believing that they too are Gnolls. My idea is this. Since Lupins are now quite a large race, even if it is only 2000 years old, there must have been quite a few Hutaakan Gnoll interbreeds from the start. Extrapolation: Hutaakans were not limited to the Black Peak Mts. They were found also in the Dwarfgate Mts, Ostland Hills and perhaps even on the Savage Coast. Most of these lands were eventually overrun with Gnolls, resulting in many proto-Lupins being born. In Karameikos, there evolved three fractions of Hutaakans. 1) The Masters, this was the dominant fraction, consisting of at least half of the Traladara- Hutaakans. These were under the leadership of the High Priest of Pflarr, although the High Priest was never what Pflarr hoped he would become, but rather a greedy coward. 2)The Mentor Fraction, these were the ones who wished to help the Traldar. Including Zirchev's Teacher. 3) The Anarchists. These, learning the arrival of the Gnolls, welcomed them and sought to manipulate the raging Gnolls and gain power from it. Both group 2 & 3 stayed behind when the high Priest's followers retreated to the Secret Vallet and other Hidden Cities. Both of the groups interbred with Gnolls (willingly or not), producing proto-Lupin offspring. No True Hutaakans remained in the Outer World, except for those who hid in the cities orlived alongside the Gnolls. The rest were either killed or transported to the HW. The proto-Lupin offspring were left in the Outer World, but Pflarr keeps an eye on them hoping that they will become what the Hutaakans never were. Another idea: We know that the Gnoll were created through manipulating Goblinoids. What if Pflarr himself and later the Hutaakans were also "purified" Kobolds. Mystaran Kobolds have always been portrayed as doglike anyways, rather than lizardlike as in 3e. This also puts an interesting light to the Kobold info in the Northern Reaches gaz where some believe that Kobolds are actually a major race. Also the Shining Armor the Shining One found when he was a mortal Kobold could have been a gift from Pflarr.... Ideas? Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:43:23 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals --- Chris Cherrington wrote: > If Ilsundal was involved with Zirchev's sponsorship, > that may re-inforce my theory of the Elves coming to > Cannolbarth to help destroy Nithia. Good point! This discussion is getting more and more tied in with our Nithia-debate. Very appropriate IMO. Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:52:43 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > Uhm, Petra is not only an Immortal of War, she also > covers most aspects of a "general purpose" goddess > (hearth and women activities, IIRC). > On the other hand, she is clearly aligned with the > Traladarans, while Vanya is definitely opposed to > them. Good point. > >>> If she did not sponsor Petra (Petranida IMC), > then > >>> who did? > >> > >> Personally, I'd say Khoronus -- a powerful, elder > >> Time Immortal, and, IIRC, the leader of the > Tarsian > >> Twelve. According to an other posting it was as you probably have seen Protius. Protius is one of the Traldar Immortals mentioned in the Tarsian Twelve article incidentaly, known as Protios. So is Ilsundal (As Sonios), sponsor of Zirchev, but not Odin. So, if we use that article it would make more sense if Halav's sponsor was Kagyar (Daros). Its a decent article, found at http://dnd.starflung.com/traldimm.html > > These are possible. > > If we accept my ideas about Pflarr (see other > mail), > > perhaps Pflarr himself was her sponsor and the one > > providing spells for her when she ressurrected > Halav? > > There is a problem with this in that Pflarr is an > Immortal of Energy, not Time. > I think she was a Cleric of the Tarsian Twelve (or a > Priestess of Khoronus). Good point. If Pflarr was involved he was probably more acting in the background, but keeping his identity secret from mortals out of fear to mess it up more than he already had. Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:54:22 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Chardastes (was: Traldar and their Immortals) --- Daniel Gioffre wrote: > Havard, > > I thought that Chardastes was male too. The only > write-ups about him that I know about are in B9 and > in > WotI...must check. Are you sure he is worshipped by > the Traladarans? I'm pretty sure he was described in > WotI as a native Traladaran Immortal worshipped by > the > Karameikans... I'll have to check it later, although I was pretty sure about that one. Havard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:04:55 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals --- Daniel Gioffre skrev: > Havard, > > > This is a possibility, although the Milenian > > religion > > may have evolved in the years after this people > left > > Brun. > > Oh, yes, undoubtedly (Halav is a member of their > pantheon, IIRC). But this can be seen (from the DM's > perspective) as an instance of a hero of the Traldar > becoming in his Immortality a patron of his people > (even those who bolted at the first sign of nasty > hyena danger). I would guess that the others in that > pantheon (Ixion et al.) were probably worshipped by > the primitive (pre-Halav) Traldar. Yeah, I did some "homework" last night on the Milenians, Traldar and Nithians from HW. The Milenians apparently follow Halav & Co, which is strange, considering that they had left long before the Three achieved Immortality. However, perhaps legends grew among the milenians about their friends left behind in Traladara and how they were resuced by the Three Heroes. Myths grew and religion was formed around the fact that the Three would again help the Milenians as they had helped their people in the past. As for the former Milenian religion I am warming up to the Tarsian Twelve-pantheon myself. It will be either that or just your average mysticism. Where this pantheon comes from is anyones guess, but I suggest that it is old and related in many was to the Nithian one even if it is slightly different. Among Traladarans the old immortals are not completely forgotten, but still totally overshadowed by the Three. > > Well, this could work if these Immortals were the > Old > > Traladaran Immortals who at the time before the > > Invasion allowed themselves to be reborn as > mortals > > and returned to Immortality once they had saved > > their people. Im getting associations to Jesus, > > Buddha etc > > This is kind of what I'm getting at, except the > belief > of the Traladarans is not that they were "reborn" as > mortals but rather that they assumed human form > during > the war. It's not exactly parallel to Christian > beliefs (it's not an Incarnation)...I was thinking > of > something more along pagan lines. Makes sense. Reconciling this with the Tarsian Twelve, it may be believed that the Three were part of that Pantheon (under different names), actual knowledge of the Pantheon is blurred at best, anyways. > [Incidentally, it's clear from Gaz 1 that the gnolls > had patrons of equal rank to the Traldar's patrons. > I > have a solution for that too, but that's another > topic.] My favourite Traladara/Karameikos Badguys would be the Unholy Trinity of Arik, Orcus and Demogorgon, currently _very_ active IMC, but Orcus is IIRC slightly younger. This means the actual Unholy Trinity (opposed to the Holy Three) was formed after the Three became Immortals. Who else could have been involved? Hel and Thanatos certainly. Im curiuous to hear your theory :) Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:21:35 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals --- Ville_V_Lähde wrote: > BTW I never liked the idea of importing the Norse > gods to the Mystaran > mythos. It always rubs me the wrong way when I hear > "Odin" in that > context. (Perhaps also because the whole NR > Gazetteer fits so badly with > the whole setup.) Still, if one accepts Odin, it's > feasible that he would > sponsor a guy like Halav. Vanya (or someone like > that, since pinpointing > her origins is a pain in the ass) fits also well > with > Petra. But I'm uneasy about Ilsundal, as he is so > centered on the elven > race and its fortunes. Why would he sponsor Zirchev? > Perhaps because of > his connections to the animal kingdom? By the way, I > forget: when did the > elves come to proto-Karameikos? If we are writing an > alternative version > of the Traldar history, we shouldn't forget their > influence in the > developing religion. The spiritual elements might > have origins there... Mystaras Odin is not identical to the Norse Odin, even though he is vaguely based on him. I always refer to the "Norse Immortals" by their HW names (Wotan, Donar etc) to remove some of the more annoying references. As for Petras sponsor, Ive replied to that in another post. Ilsundal is as i mentioned there also part of the Tarsian Twelve pantheon (as Sonios) so this would explain his involvement. Also as Chris suggested, it may also be explained with the elven plot to destroy Nithia. > > URL for the Division of Five? > > You can find Division of the Five at: > http://dnd.starflung.com/5div.html > > The stuff in the following adress is linked to that > campaing. > http://dnd.starflung.com/tralmtem.html Cool stuff! Now skimmed and downloaded for further study :) > I places Zirchev's training grounds in the Riverfork > keep area, since it > tied very well with the local lycantropic > infestations. Fair enough. I noticed that Halav is from Lavv (now Kelvin), but according to HW DMG is referred to as Halav of Luln. Here is a theory. Lavv was destroyed in the initial invasion wave. Halav, taking with him the secrets of bronzeworking which he stole a few years earlier retreated to Luln where he gained support from the King of Halag and Zirchev arriving from the western wilderness. King Milen and his followers had already fled from their homes in Marilenev. Meanwhile, in Krakatos, Warrior Princess Petranida (Petra), descendant of the ancient High Kings of Traldar organized defences in Krakatos, waiting for aid from her lover King Halav. Is this a feasible scenario? > Anyway, this seems like a good opportunity at > collective writing: we could > write a nice article far the Vaults - "Alternative > myhtological histories > of the Traldar"? I think we definately should! No reason to force an agreement either. Instead, we could provide different alternatives for others to pick and chose between. I'm actually getting ideas for quite a few articles now. History, religion, etc... But first, back to work... :( Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:27:45 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Felix Holtschoppen wrote: > > Yes, the sponsoring technique makes the whole immortal theme feel like an > infinite regress. Nevertheless there are the Old Ones who might have started > it all and as recent events have shown sponsoring is just one way among > others to immortality. Perhaps it's just a fairly new one (according to > immortal standards), since all those ancient immortals don't seem to have > needed a sponsor. Yes, but all of them are so old that they do not even remember their mortal life (assuming they had one to begin with). So they might have had sponsors, whom they would have forgotten as well. Anyway, having a sponsor is not needed per se, it just helps, so that without the sponsorship system there would be a lot less Immortals around. Also, the sponsor immortals certainly prefer the system to stay as it is, so they enforce the sponsorship system (up to the NoS discovery, then it all becomes a mess). -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:26:14 +0100 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Havard Faanes wrote: > >>>>> If she did not sponsor Petra (Petranida IMC), >>>>> then who did? >>>> >>>> Personally, I'd say Khoronus -- a powerful, elder >>>> Time Immortal, and, IIRC, the leader of the >>>> Tarsian Twelve. > > According to an other posting it was as you probably > have seen Protius. Yes, not my first choice, but an acceptable choice anyway. > So is Ilsundal (As > Sonios), sponsor of Zirchev, but not Odin. So, if we > use that article it would make more sense if Halav's > sponsor was Kagyar (Daros). Indeed. Considering that Halav's portfolio includes weaponsmithing and metalworking, Kagyar is certainly the best choice. >> There is a problem with this in that Pflarr is an >> Immortal of Energy, not Time. >> I think she was a Cleric of the Tarsian Twelve (or a >> Priestess of Khoronus). > > Good point. If Pflarr was involved he was probably > more acting in the background, but keeping his > identity secret from mortals out of fear to mess it up > more than he already had. Yes, with the potential exception of Zirchev, of course. Bye, GP -- Giampaolo Agosta http://digilander.iol.it/agathokles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:15:16 -0800 From: Daniel Gioffre Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Havard, > The Milenians apparently follow Halav & Co, which is > strange, considering that they had left long before > the Three achieved Immortality. Right. What I was trying to say before is that it seems reasonable that the Three, _after_ they gained Immortality, became co-patrons of the Milenians. Whether this was through their own efforts or the actions of the Milenians themselves is an open question (although I prefer the former). > My favourite Traladara/Karameikos Badguys would be > the Unholy Trinity of Arik, Orcus and Demogorgon, > currently _very_ active IMC, but Orcus is IIRC > slightly younger. I've always assumed that the Three were countered by an equal number of evil Immortals. I chose Orcus, Arik, and Leptar primarily because all three have stated connections to Traladara. Traladaran legend IMC holds that Arik was eternally imprisoned and Leptar was banished from all memory (his name is actually not known; he is referred to only as "the Forgotten") by the Three after their victory in the war. This fits in pretty well with the Basic modules. [Also, about Chardastes, I think the reason people think that he is female is because in B9 it is said that he first appeared to a woman.] -Dan ===== "Feanor began to love the Silmarils with a greedy love, and grudged the sight of them to all save to his father and his seven sons; he seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own." -J.R.R. Tolkien, Quenta Silmarillion __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:41:35 -0800 From: Rodger Burns Subject: Lost Immortals (was Re: Traldar and their Immortals) Felix Holtschoppen wrote on November 20, 2003: > Yes, the sponsoring technique makes the whole immortal theme feel like an > infinite regress. Nevertheless there are the Old Ones who might > have started > it all and as recent events have shown sponsoring is just one way among > others to immortality. Perhaps it's just a fairly new one (according to > immortal standards), since all those ancient immortals don't seem to have > needed a sponsor. I'm not arguing for a load of NoS-like devices strewn > across Mystara. Rather I'd really love to hear some ideas what > else could be > sufficient to reach the immortal status without a sponsor and what other > ways could be thought of... Well, I'd think that Immortal status can only be achieved with Immortal power, one way or another - which needs a sponsor, a power source such as the NoS (which is difficult to acquire, and generally closely controlled by Immortals), or else... what? The thing that annoys/disturbs me about WotI's take on sponsoring and its infinite regress is the way in which every Immortal in the book is sponsored by another major, known immortal. A short section on "lost/deceased Immortals" might be an interesting hook to provide for additional sponsors, as well as campaign ideas. Some possibilities: - Nyava: This Jennite princess proved herself as a warrior and assembled the alliance of tribes that first checked the Alphatian advance into the Steppes of Jen, almost 2000 years ago, to achieve her Immortality in the Sphere of Time. She disappeared from Immortal politics about six centuries ago, and divinations have only found fragmentary images of her chained in Baaka - possibly in an Entropic plane, to remove a bargaining piece; possibly imprisoned by an immortal of an Alphatian patron immortal; possibly by her own superiors in the Sphere of Time. - Al'Din: A Thothian rogue during mortal life, Al'Din forged contracts with genies and defended his homeland in the dark years after the fall of Nithia. He established himself as an Epic Hero with these deeds, and as a member of the Sphere of Time became known for long journeys to strange and unknown places. About four hundred years ago he attempted to explore the Vortex Dimension, and has not been heard from since. - Dulac: Originally from Eusdria, this elven knight journeyed between the many different lands of the Savage Coast promoting chivalry and self-sacrifice. He followed the path of the Polymath, living three different lives in the forms of other creatures of the Coast, and became an immortal patron of Matter. He later sacrificed himself to halt an invasion from a far corner of the Nightmare Dimension, hurling himself through the gate to that realm to hold the enemies off while allies destroyed the gate. - Liandriath, the Changer: An Evergrun elf at the time of Blackmoor, Liandriath was one of those who refused to travel north with Ilsundal. After the Blackmoor disaster, he was able to use his magic to keep an outpost of Evergrun alive for a time, and received his immortality in the Sphere of Energy as a reward. As an Immortal, his chief fascination was with shapeshifting magics and powers; he reportedly was lost after experimenting with a cursed artifact that either transformed him into something completely unable to function in Immortal society or else destabilized him so completely that he couldn't travel anywhere safely. Good idea? Any other ideas? > > bye, > Felix > "The best lack all conviction, While the worst are full of passionate intensity." - W.B. Yeats, "The Second Coming" Rodger Burns ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:51:16 -0800 From: Rodger Burns Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Havard Faanes Thursday, November 20, 2003 > Yeah, I did some "homework" last night on the > Milenians, Traldar and Nithians from HW. The Milenians > apparently follow Halav & Co, which is strange, > considering that they had left long before the Three > achieved Immortality. However, perhaps legends grew > among the milenians about their friends left behind in > Traladara and how they were resuced by the Three > Heroes. Myths grew and religion was formed around the > fact that the Three would again help the Milenians as > they had helped their people in the past. It's also possible that the original Milenian religion was too closely tied to memories of Nithia to be allowed to survive. (This could be religious beliefs tied directly to Nithian beliefs, or else a religion based closely on the idea of Nithia as an ancestral foe/rival. The latter would work better than the former for the Tarsian Twelve, of course.) In this case, the worship of Halav and Petra could have been worked in sometime soon after 500 BC to grant appropriate patrons to the Milenians. This does end up exposing the possibility of a great many secondary religious/cultural shifts caused by the SoO, of course. I can see the horse-trading now. "Alright, I'll let Thor set up a new religion to supplant my 'Nithian-infected' church in Helskir, but only if I get a foot in the door in Slagovich..." "The best lack all conviction, While the worst are full of passionate intensity." - W.B. Yeats, "The Second Coming" Rodger Burns ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 19:34:42 +0100 From: Jacob Skytte Subject: Immortals of the Northern Reaches In The Northern Reaches there's a very elegant solution for new = Immortals. The Gods (what Immortals are called there) were, of course, = never "mortal" in the sense of being human creatures that "ascended" to = a greater power. No, all good Norsemen know that the Gods were, long = before man. In fact Lord Odin created mankind (and dwarves too). However, when a mortal man dies, he will have the honor of joining Lord = Odin in Valhalla, if he was valiant enough, to become one of the = Einheriar, the warriors who will fight for Odin on the day of Ragnarok. = Likewise, suitably wicked persons will go to the Queen of the = Underworld, Hel, to fight in her army opposing Odin, come fateful = Ragnarok. Obviously this means that any new Immortals have become either one of = the Einheriar or one of Hel's champions. Mortal men may even emulate and = "worship" these mighty heroes, out of respect for their accomplishments = in life, but they aren't considered Gods. Over the centuries however, = mankind may forget that these Immortals were "just" vassals and thus end = up adding them to the Northlander pantheon, believing that they were = always Gods. This seems like a very elegant way to introduce new Gods into the = pantheon, without giving away the fact that they originally were mortal = men. Hence, no mortal is aware of the fact that they may become an = Immortal - an equal of the Gods - they only know that if they live a = properly valiant (or wicked) life, they may enter the ranks of the = servants of the Gods in the afterlife. This then could lead to the Quest = for Immortality, even though the mortal only thinks that he/she is = striving to lead a virtuous/suitably wicked life, to become a servant of = the Gods in the "afterlife." Jacob Skytte scythe@wanadoo.dk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 20:48:49 +0000 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Rodger Burns wrote: > > It's also possible that the original Milenian religion was too closely tied > to memories of Nithia to be allowed to survive. (This could be religious > beliefs tied directly to Nithian beliefs, or else a religion based closely > on the idea of Nithia as an ancestral foe/rival. The latter would work > better than the former for the Tarsian Twelve, of course.) In this case, > the worship of Halav and Petra could have been worked in sometime soon after > 500 BC to grant appropriate patrons to the Milenians. This may have been Petra's working: since her kingdom (Krakatos) did not survive her (Traladara went into the dark age right after the war), it could be assumed that Milenia was her testimony/task. She might have been helped by the other two, also, and by the effects of the SoP. BTW, this SoP effects might have created the Tarsian Twelve from scratches (i.e., the TT may be a "false past" for the Traladaran religion). Bye, GP -- di nuovo come un tempo sopra l'Italia intera urla il vento e soffia la bufera ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 19 Nov 2003 to 20 Nov 2003 (#2003-273) ****************************************************************