Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 24 Nov 2003 to 25 Nov 2003 (#2003-278) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 26/11/2003, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 4 messages totalling 258 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. RW mythology in Mystara (2) 2. Traldar and their Immortals (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 11:00:31 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Re: RW mythology in Mystara On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, Joaquin Menchaca wrote: > I would be curious as to why "mythological stuff on > the Northern Reaches Gazetteers fits very badly with > the rest of the Gazetteer setup." > > It would be interesting to field some ideas on this. > I might develop some Immortals for Mystara (some > canon, some non-canon) and am interested in your > thoughts and discussion... > We touched the problems of the NR Gazetteer at least during the discussion on gnoll origins. The elder history of the Reaches with its too early gnoll invasions (before Nithia!) and emphasis on giants and greater trolls don't fit very well with the rest. Especially the trolls and the giants were just written to fit the Norse mythology, but the ramifications of great giant/troll civilisations in there parts of the world are poorly though out. The area is just too small to be used as a wholesale Edda-style setup. As for the Norse Immortals: it is just that they seem to have their own pretty self-enclosed cosmos of planes and godly relations that is too distinct from the rest of the Mystaran mythology. The Eddan mythology is a story of cosmic revolution and return, that touches everything and everyone. To pinpoint such a story to such a small area doesn't work very well - no thought has been give to how this works with the rest of the Mystaran mythology. - To clarify: I'm talking about the stuff on the World tree, the three "gards" etc, the stuff in the later sections of the Gaz. It doesn't bother me thet the Gaz uses Norse gods in the Reaches. But they should be rewritten and used out of the Edda framework, where the gods, "the Asas", form a definite whole (compare this to the Olympos) that is defined by its opposition to the giants, Hel, and the treacherous Loki - and this whole opposition is defined by the impending Ragnarok, the final battle. They aren't Immortals, they are gods, and they don't work well as Mystaran Immortals. Perhaps the Norse gods should be rewritten as Immortals in the Mystaran style. One could create a long Antalian history that created this pantheon of Immortals - or, more likely, a history that shows how the Northmen began to worship elder Immortals by other names. (Doesn't the WotI Immortals Codex establish this at least for some Norse immortals?) Also, there are elements like the dark elves that are very hard to fit into Mystara (there was a long discussion with great ideas earlier this year IIRC). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:42:39 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: RW mythology in Mystara I also feel a bit uncomfortable using RW mythology in Mystara. What I prefer is something that may be very similar to RW myths, but not quite. The problem is that RW myths never fit 100%. So what you get is the assumption that it is going to be just like the RW, but it still isnt. Which gives you problems such as Mythology vs Cosmology like the examples given by Ville. Then the problem of why Thor is connected with Energy and Odin with Thought, when Thor just as easily could have been Thought, while Odin could have been Entropy or Energy just as much as Thought. What I did is the following: Immortals use HW names only: Odin becomes Wotan etc. It is still no secret who they are based on, but this emphasises that they are only based on RW gods and might be somewhat different. Planes: The Various planes have names based on the Gods' Realms, but they are Planes and follow the Mystaran Cosmology. Dark Elves, Trolls, Giants etc: Here i am willing to expand the Mystara Cosmology a little. Great Giants could be a powerful race of Outerplanar creatures, ancestors to modern Giants and Trolls. Stats for the various Trolls and lesser Giant races need to be made up obviously. Many of these lesser races could be found all over Mystara, but perhaps with a focus on the Northeastern Brun (Northern Reaches, Norwold etc..) Dark Elves I already made up stats for in D&D, although they need serious revision. Basically they are just a race of infernal servants of Lokar (Loki). Just some thoughts... Håvard --- Ville_V_Lähde skrev: > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, Joaquin Menchaca wrote: > > > I would be curious as to why "mythological stuff > on > > the Northern Reaches Gazetteers fits very badly > with > > the rest of the Gazetteer setup." > > > > It would be interesting to field some ideas on > this. > > I might develop some Immortals for Mystara (some > > canon, some non-canon) and am interested in your > > thoughts and discussion... > > > We touched the problems of the NR Gazetteer at least > during the discussion > on gnoll origins. The elder history of the Reaches > with its too early > gnoll invasions (before Nithia!) and emphasis on > giants and greater trolls > don't fit very well with the rest. Especially the > trolls and the giants > were just written to fit the Norse mythology, but > the ramifications of > great giant/troll civilisations in there parts of > the world are poorly > though out. The area is just too small to be used as > a wholesale > Edda-style setup. > > As for the Norse Immortals: it is just that they > seem to have their own > pretty self-enclosed cosmos of planes and godly > relations that is too > distinct from the rest of the Mystaran mythology. > The Eddan mythology is a > story of cosmic revolution and return, that touches > everything and > everyone. To pinpoint such a story to such a small > area doesn't work very > well - no thought has been give to how this works > with the rest of the > Mystaran mythology. - To clarify: I'm talking about > the stuff on the World > tree, the three "gards" etc, the stuff in the later > sections of the Gaz. > > It doesn't bother me thet the Gaz uses Norse gods in > the Reaches. But > they should be rewritten and used out of the Edda > framework, where the gods, > "the Asas", form a definite whole (compare this to > the Olympos) that is > defined by its opposition to the giants, Hel, and > the treacherous Loki - > and this whole opposition is defined by the > impending Ragnarok, the final > battle. They aren't Immortals, they are gods, and > they don't work well as > Mystaran Immortals. > > Perhaps the Norse gods should be rewritten as > Immortals in the Mystaran > style. One could create a long Antalian history that > created this pantheon > of Immortals - or, more likely, a history that shows > how the Northmen > began to worship elder Immortals by other names. > (Doesn't the WotI Immortals Codex establish this at > least for some Norse > immortals?) > > Also, there are elements like the dark elves that > are very hard to fit > into Mystara (there was a long discussion with great > ideas earlier this > year IIRC). > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:54:13 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals --- Daniel Gioffre skrev: > Havard, > > > I forgot to check this but IIRC Orcus achieved > > Immortality around 600 BC; about 400 years after > the > > Invasions. > > Yes, but the Traladaran Church of AC 1000 doesn't > know > that. Again, it's a situation of "primitive" > traditions attaining another level of meaning in the > face of historical developments. Okay, from a mortal perspective that is certainly possible. I cant see any reason why most mortals wouldnt think most immortals have existed for a very long time if not forever... Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:25:55 -0800 From: Daniel Gioffre Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Havard, I checked WotI this morning and it said nothing about when Orcus achieved Immortality. Do you remember your source? -Dan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 24 Nov 2003 to 25 Nov 2003 (#2003-278) ****************************************************************