Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 27 Nov 2003 to 1 Dec 2003 (#2003-281) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 02/12/2003, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 8 messages totalling 537 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Vanya/Petra Sponsorship (2) 2. Traldar and their Immortals (3) 3. Ancient Taymoran Evil in Karameikos (2) 4. Immortals (was: Traldar & the Immortals) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:30:56 +0800 From: "Francisco V. Navarro V" Subject: Vanya/Petra Sponsorship Hail Mystarans! I've reviewed the discussion on the Vanya/Petra sponsorship, and I remember this idea (I don't know from where) that this whole mutual sponsorship was an idea of Khoronus, Hierarch of Time. Both Vanya and Petra, in their mortal lives, were heroic warrior-women from patriarchal societies that were being invaded/oppressed by another nation/culture/race. (Petra and the Traldar on Brun were invaded by the Beastmen, migrated to Davania to become the Milenians, who in turn invaded the ancient Thyatians, including the Kerendan princess Vanya, who migrated back to Brun, as an the Thyatian, in turn oppressed the Traladarans. All the ironies in this would be clearly evident to the wise Khoronus, Patron of Time and Histories!) So Khoronus arranges one Immortal Patroness of warrior-women to rescue the other, and eventually sponsor her into the Sphere of Time. Khoronus' idea was to teach both of them an important lesson: to see the similarities in their mortal lives, and the fates of all mortal; to see beyond the differences of culture, race, and time! (Of course, to the Hierarch and Near-Old One Khoronus, the little switch-a-roo through history and time is no big deal!) As great a teacher Khoronus was (and as important the lesson!), he did not fully succeed. In the Immortal realms, Petra and Vanya have their loyalties to each other (albeit uneasy and forced) due to their mutual sponsorship, and not just being co-Immortals in the Sphere of Time. On Mystara however, Petra and Vanya still try to undermine each other in their favored nations. I suppose such time-twisting historical-irony plots are quite commonplace, and maybe even quintessential to the Immortals of the Sphere of Time. (If you think this mutual sponsorship is weird, what about Khoronus' self-sponsorship!) Perhaps when Immortal fully understand the complexities, paradoxes, subtleties, and ironies of these Immortal plots, then they are ready to become Old Ones. (Maybe this is what happened to Verthandi...) Kit Navarro ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 16:37:31 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Marco! The date of Orcus' Ascention being linked with appearance of werebeasts was not my idea, but I think you are right that that is where it came from. That said, I really like your idea of Orcus being the first Devil Swine. I thought about linking his origins to the Gnoll invasions, but as he is of Eternal rank, making him even older than that would make sense. Håvard --- DM skrev: > At Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:25:55 -0800, Daniel Gioffre > wrote: > > >I checked WotI this morning and it said nothing > about > >when Orcus achieved Immortality. Do you remember > your > >source? > > > > I believe good Haavard is merely extrapolating the > date of Orcus's > ascension to immortality based on the date when the > first true werebeasts > appeared on Mystara (brought by Alphatians), since > the description of Orcus > says he was a devil swine in real life (the first > IIRC). > The problem is that you haven't counted that there > are 3 types of lycanthropy: > 1. true-blooded: these are true lycanthropes, they > breed true and are > descendant of Alphatian strains OR of the third kind > of lycanthropes (see > below); > 2. infected: these are normal mortals infected with > the lycanthropic > disease by werebeasts' saliva and blood. They cannot > breed true and don't > usually pass their curse onto their children; > 3. maledictive: this comes from powerful curses and > can be passed onto the > offsprings. > > Now what if Orcus became the first devil swine > because of a curse he got > while looking for an artifact of Entropy OR while > using it (remember > penalties and handicaps?)? This way we could > hypothesize that he's really > much more ancient than other werebeasts and has > appeared at the beginning > of the Mystaran history (he was probably a Beastman > or another kind of ugly > humanoid that achieved immortality in pre-Cataclysm > time?) > > Just my two pieces... > > Ah and an OT for all the Italian Mystaraphiles: 25 > Edition (publisher of > D&D products in Italy) just created a space for us > Mystara fans in its home > site. Be sure to stop and pay a visit to offer your > ideas and make your > presence known. The URL is: > http://www.25edition.it (click on the upper icon > titled L'Incontro and > scroll down till u see Mystara!) ^_^ > > > DM > Senior Editor of the Mystaran Almanac > Lt. Cmdr. of U.S.S. Unicorn > > "You don't stop playing because you grow old: > you grow old because you stop playing!" > > Visit Marco's Mystara Homepage at: > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967 > And Mystara Italian Homepage at: > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/9940 > > Join the Mystara Webring at: > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/2967/mystring.html > Join the Starfleet Academy at: > http://gioco.net/startrek (Italian RPG PBEM) > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 16:44:52 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals --- Andrew Theisen wrote: > I think it's not so much an exact date, as it is the > statement (not entirely certain where it's from- > either Hollow World or WotI) that he lived in the > Minrothad Guilds. If taken at face value, that > places his "origin" date at a time after the > Minrothad Guilds were established formally and > politically (whatever date that was, can't think > when offhand). If taken as just a generic "he was > from the place now known as the Minrothad Guilds" > then it could be any time that settlers arrived in > that region, which might expand the available > timeline somewhat. Ah, I had forgotten about that. As I pointed out to Marco, Orcus is listed as an Eternal, which IMO should mean that he has atleast a few years on his back. If we use your latter interpretation, that would provide a wider range of ideas. Firstly, IIRC Minrothad was settled by people of Nithian stock. This means we could make a connection between those. OTOH, it might be even more interesting to make him a wizards of Taymora, experimenting with Lycanthropy on himself, thus becoming the first Devil Swine as Marco suggested. Orcus and Demogorgon also seem to have a connection. It might just be that they were presented together in the old Gold Box, but could their origins also somehow be related? Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:00:30 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Ancient Taymoran Evil in Karameikos --- Andrew Theisen wrote: > This is a really interesting conjecture, and it > meshes somewhat with a thought I'd had (seems like > eons ago) about the Hutaakans in the Lost Valley. Ah, now that you mention it I seem to recall discussing something similar with you at one point. Maybe that was what was churning in the back of my head :) > Recall that there was an ancient evil in the temple > of the Hutaaka in that valley that could only be > contained by the Hutaaka's rites (the hideous > Kartoeba). Recall also that Pflarr is said to have > turned his back on his Hutaaka followers in the > Outer World after the gnollish invasions- yet there > are priests in the Lost Valley... > What if Kartoeba is one of those hideous beasts that > the Taymora were involved with, and that Ranivorus > had sent his gnollish followers to find and > capture/enslave that beast (among other things, > probably). His gnolls having failed in their task, > Ranivorus instead appeared to the Hutaaka of the > Outer World, demoralized at the loss of their > patron, Pflarr. In a benevolent guise, he agreed to > become their new patron in exchange for them > becoming the caretakers of the "Hideous One", > Kartoeba. Kartoeba being summoned by the Taymorans fits perfectly! Perhaps indeed it was some ancient power in the Lost Valley which drew the Gnolls into Traladara. Kartoeba himself is not neccesarily what the Gnolls were seeking. Perhaps Kartoeba was placed there by the Taymorans to protect one of their ancient artifacts? I like the idea of the Hutaakans receiving spells from Ranivorous aswell. This means yet another Entropic immortal is involved in these lands. What if the Hutaakan warriors and workers still worship Pflarr, but the Clerics, not admitting that Pflarr no longer favoured them formed a conspiracy with the aid of Ranivorus which allowed them to stay in power and continue their destructive conflict with the Traldar. > For centuries, they have remained thus, unable to > bring the beast under their control, but able to > contain it in its prison until such time as > Ranivorus wishes to unleash it on the world. And perhaps also release what lays buried below the Valley...? > As for other Taymoran monstrosities/horrors, that's > a good question. I think even for those who don't > like some of the continuity of James Mishler's > Taymor, that the general trend seems to be that the > Taymorans were engaged in some sort of Necromantic > practices, so undead horrors wouldn't be out of the > question. If you link them up with Thanatos (and his > cohort Ranivorus) then minions/servitors/creations > of the Outer Beings (or facsimiles thereof) might be > quite likely as well. Given the appearance and > nature of Kartoeba, there might even be Nightmare > creatures (or again, the OBs) involved. Undead and Lycanthropes would probably be the most common of Taymoras creations, but having them bring in something from Nightmare or beyond seems like something they would do. Perhaps the Hutaakan Valley was the location of a special project, kept away from Taymoran heartlands in fear of the destruction it might cause if things went wrong....? Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:17:42 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Ancient Taymoran Evil in Karameikos --- Giampaolo Agosta wrote: > The eastern part (Altan Tepee to Lake of Lost > Dreams) was part of the Land of the Foimorians, > though. Has anything more been done on the Fomorians? (checking Shawns page)...Aha! :) > Northern Taymoran followers of Thanatos enlisted the > help of Hill Giants > in the Thanatos-Nyx war. The Hill Giants of western > Karameikos may still > hide remnants of this cult. This is interesting... > The Northern Taymoran Border was one of the main > field of action of the > lycanthropic troops. There may be some magic item > that helped the > Taymoran generals in controlling their troops hidden > somewhere (in a > fortress, tomb or battlefield). > > The Temples of Tanyt (Nyx) and Sarrattalu (Thanatos) > were secret > undergound structure. It is possible that giants > were employed in the > construction of the last (and greatest) temples. > Such gigantic dungeons may house "secret weapons" > (special monsters like > B4's Zargon, e.g., but also bound Fiends, magical > items/weapons, even > biological weapons -- e.g., a dormant Dusanu > spores), ancient undead > priests (Ancient Dead, Gray Philosophers), or > portals to other places or > dimensions, all of these guarded by undead (mummies, > spectres, wraiths, > giant skeletons or zombies), guardian constructs > (bronze golems, for > example). Combining this with Andrew's ideas that the Taymorans had a special project going on in the Lost Valley before even the Hutaakans arrived there should work pretty well. They may also have had other projects especially along the northwestern mountain, which now (AC1000) are Gnoll occupied territory, providing the Gnoll leaders with useful magic items etc.... Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:23:23 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Vanya/Petra Sponsorship I like this idea Francisco :) Maybe Khornonus's idea was that other Immortals could learn from watching the two, even if they themselves did not see their own folly? Håvard --- "Francisco V. Navarro V" skrev: > Hail Mystarans! > > I've reviewed the discussion on the Vanya/Petra > sponsorship, and I remember > this idea (I don't know from where) that this whole > mutual sponsorship was > an idea of Khoronus, Hierarch of Time. > > Both Vanya and Petra, in their mortal lives, were > heroic warrior-women from > patriarchal societies that were being > invaded/oppressed by another > nation/culture/race. (Petra and the Traldar on Brun > were invaded by the > Beastmen, migrated to Davania to become the > Milenians, who in turn invaded > the ancient Thyatians, including the Kerendan > princess Vanya, who migrated > back to Brun, as an the Thyatian, in turn oppressed > the Traladarans. All the > ironies in this would be clearly evident to the wise > Khoronus, Patron of > Time and Histories!) > > So Khoronus arranges one Immortal Patroness of > warrior-women to rescue the > other, and eventually sponsor her into the Sphere of > Time. Khoronus' idea > was to teach both of them an important lesson: to > see the similarities in > their mortal lives, and the fates of all mortal; to > see beyond the > differences of culture, race, and time! > (Of course, to the Hierarch and Near-Old One > Khoronus, the little > switch-a-roo through history and time is no big > deal!) > > As great a teacher Khoronus was (and as important > the lesson!), he did not > fully succeed. In the Immortal realms, Petra and > Vanya have their loyalties > to each other (albeit uneasy and forced) due to > their mutual sponsorship, > and not just being co-Immortals in the Sphere of > Time. On Mystara however, > Petra and Vanya still try to undermine each other in > their favored nations. > > I suppose such time-twisting historical-irony plots > are quite commonplace, > and maybe even quintessential to the Immortals of > the Sphere of Time. (If > you think this mutual sponsorship is weird, what > about Khoronus' > self-sponsorship!) Perhaps when Immortal fully > understand the complexities, > paradoxes, subtleties, and ironies of these Immortal > plots, then they are > ready to become Old Ones. (Maybe this is what > happened to Verthandi...) > > Kit Navarro > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: > http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to > LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 20:54:14 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Immortals (was: Traldar & the Immortals) Personally I never liked much the idea that ALL immortals, even old beings like Odin, Orcus, Demogorgon, were ever mortals. Nor do I accept the change to dragon society brought on by WotI. No, I don't get it. Immortals that were once mortals is a cool addition to the setting, but saying that "all immortals were mortals" is an addiction...8-) Just my idea, anyway. Iulius Sergius Scaevola Captain of the XXth Cohort Port Lucinius, Thyatis ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail: 6MB di spazio gratuito, 30MB per i tuoi allegati, l'antivirus, il filtro Anti-spam http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:13:15 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Havard Faanes wrote: Ah, I had forgotten about that. As I pointed out to Marco, Orcus is listed as an Eternal, which IMO should mean that he has atleast a few years on his back. If we use your latter interpretation, that would provide a wider range of ideas. Firstly, IIRC Minrothad was settled by people of Nithian stock. This means we could make a connection between those. OTOH, it might be even more interesting to make him a wizards of Taymora, experimenting with Lycanthropy on himself, thus becoming the first Devil Swine as Marco suggested. > I just realized I was confused. I was confusing Orcus with Masauwu, based on speculation in the Master DMs guide that Masauwu was just another name for Orcus. As of WotI, both of these guys are different Immortals. > According to WotI, Orcus was a Devil-Swine in Traladara. In PC4: Night Howlers, it is stated that Lord Ingram ruled an island nation in the Sea of Dread in 625 and was the first "reliable" account of a Devil Swine. (Although in the timeline it states that Devil Swine first appear in Alphatia in 623 AC). The lycanthropic plague doesn't take off until 425 AC. > So, we can conjecture that Orcus was 1) Lord Ingram, the "first" Devil Swine, or 2) He was one of the first Devil Swine, living in Traladara around or after the plague of 425, (AC 400 is when Marilenev was prospering as a trading town, and lycanthropy probably came in then). EIther of which I suppose could work, though I prefer to think of Orcus as somewhat older than either of those dates would give us. > In that case, we can go with your interpretation, which has him as Taymoran or Nithian, and he became a devil swine in a period that is roughly "before" recorded time (note that Lord Ingram is, again, the first "reliable" account. Ancient accounts would probably not be considered reliable or verifiable). Perhaps he didn't (or couldn't) spread the curse of lycanthropy to others (hence why Devil Swine lycanthropy doesn't appear again for centuries) or else the Devil Swine were always very secretive, and didn't decide to reveal themselves to the world until the time of a massive lycanthropic outbreak (when they would be well, not more acceptable, but able to hide in plain sight, as it were) or else when explorations of the extent of the plague drew them out of hiding (and they were assumed to be yet another manifestation of it, rather than, as they were, a separate and previously existing group of lycanthropes- which, now that I think of it, I kind of like. It keeps them a bit more unique.) As Marco pointed out, and as PC4 makes evident, the plague of 425 wasn't the only time lycanthropes have existed, just the most recent. The ancient Alphatians had lycanthropes (albeit different from "modern" ones) which was the reason they first experimented and inadvertantly released the plague in the first place. It wouldn't be a great stretch to assume other cultures on Mystara had experimented with Lycanthropy as well. Also, consider that the Alphatians landed in 1000 BC, bringing natural strains of lycanthropy with them (wolf and tiger, in PC4). Seems reasonable to assume that some other forms might have come over, and led to the creation of the first Devil Swine. > A shame that they decided to make Masauwu and Orcus two different Immortals, though. I'd have preferred having them be one and the same. Especially since they operate in the same general region (as far as their origin goes- Minrothad and Traladara), and are roughly the same level (both Eternals). I'd prefer that Masauwu be, as the Master DM's book shows, the name for Orcus amongst the Atruaghin peoples. Ah, well. Orcus and Demogorgon also seem to have a connection. It might just be that they were presented together in the old Gold Box, but could their origins also somehow be related? I like this idea, though I'm not sure how to implement it. At a first thought, the two headed Demogorgon recalls to mind the Two Headed figure of Janus, from Roman myth. Perhaps Demogorgon was among the Doulakki peoples, or could have been a Taymoran himself, and was a particularly brutal warlord. Upon his ascent to Immortality, he then became a figure of the Doulakki mythology, which was later adopted into the Thyatian pantheon of Immortals? ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 27 Nov 2003 to 1 Dec 2003 (#2003-281) ***************************************************************