Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 1 Dec 2003 to 2 Dec 2003 (#2003-282) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 03/12/2003, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 4 messages totalling 231 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Immortals (was: Traldar & the Immortals) (2) 2. Traldar and their Immortals (2) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 17:18:19 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Immortals (was: Traldar & the Immortals) --- la Volpe wrote: > Personally I never liked much the idea that ALL > immortals, even old beings like Odin, Orcus, > Demogorgon, were ever mortals. Nor do I accept the > change to dragon society brought on by WotI. No, I > don't get it. Immortals that were once mortals is a > cool addition to the setting, but saying that "all > immortals were mortals" is an addiction...8-) I agree with you, at least in some cases. WotI itself even hints at this for Immortals like Ixion, Thanatos and Odin. For Orcus and Demogorgon, Im not so sure. Clearly, they are some of the higher ranking entropics (Both Eternals), but not neccesarily all _that_ old. My current theory is that most Immortals of any interest these days are post Blackmoor Immortals. OTOH, defining the origins of each and every one of them might _not_ be a good idea if we want to keep them mysterious and aloof as good Deities should be. For this purpose there is always the explaination that what was assumed to be the mortal past for that immortal could always have been just a mortal identity or avatar of that Immortal.... BTW, what exactly is it that you don't like about the Dragon Rulers? Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 18:41:25 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals --- Andrew Theisen wrote: > > I just realized I was confused. I was confusing > Orcus with Masauwu, based on speculation in the > Master DMs guide that Masauwu was just another name > for Orcus. As of WotI, both of these guys are > different Immortals. Aha! I was a bit confused about that part. Thanks for clearing it up. > >So, we can conjecture that Orcus was 1) Lord > Ingram, the "first" Devil Swine, or 2) He was one of > the first Devil Swine, living in Traladara around or > after the plague of 425, (AC 400 is when Marilenev > was prospering as a trading town, and lycanthropy > probably came in then). EIther of which I suppose > could work, though I prefer to think of Orcus as > somewhat older than either of those dates would give > us. > > >In that case, we can go with your interpretation, > which has him as Taymoran or Nithian, and he became > a devil swine in a period that is roughly "before" > recorded time (note that Lord Ingram is, again, the > first "reliable" account. Ancient accounts would > probably not be considered reliable or verifiable). > Perhaps he didn't (or couldn't) spread the curse of > lycanthropy to others (hence why Devil Swine > lycanthropy doesn't appear again for centuries) or > else the Devil Swine were always very secretive, and > didn't decide to reveal themselves to the world > until the time of a massive lycanthropic outbreak > (when they would be well, not more acceptable, but > able to hide in plain sight, as it were) or else > when explorations of the extent of the plague drew > them out of hiding (and they were assumed to be yet > another manifestation of it, rather than, as they > were, a separate and previously existing group of > lycanthropes- which, now that I think of it, I kind > of like. It keeps them a bit more > unique.) As Marco pointed out, and as PC4 makes > evident, the plague of 425 wasn't the only time > lycanthropes have existed, just the most recent. The > ancient Alphatians had lycanthropes (albeit > different from "modern" ones) which was the reason > they first experimented and inadvertantly released > the plague in the first place. It wouldn't be a > great stretch to assume other cultures on Mystara > had experimented with Lycanthropy as well. That makes sense to me. > >A shame that they decided to make Masauwu and Orcus > two different Immortals, though. I'd have preferred > having them be one and the same. Especially since > they operate in the same general region (as far as > their origin goes- Minrothad and Traladara), and are > roughly the same level (both Eternals). I'd prefer > that Masauwu be, as the Master DM's book shows, the > name for Orcus amongst the Atruaghin peoples. Ah, > well. I had totally forgotten about Masauwu's mention in the Master Set. Not one that I check too often. Their similarities may ofcourse also have been explained by them being allies, perhaps going back to their time as mortals... [Orcus and Demogorgon] > I like this idea, though I'm not sure how to > implement it. At a first thought, the two headed > Demogorgon recalls to mind the Two Headed figure of > Janus, from Roman myth. Perhaps Demogorgon was among > the Doulakki peoples, or could have been a Taymoran > himself, and was a particularly brutal warlord. Upon > his ascent to Immortality, he then became a figure > of the Doulakki mythology, which was later adopted > into the Thyatian pantheon of Immortals? That is a possibility for sure. I remember Demogorgons identity being discussed in a previous thread though, but I cannot recall the results of that discussion. There was at least one theory of Demogorgon being the Frog, meaning (s)he is much older than Orcus, but OTOH, Demogorgon may just as easily have been sponsored by the Frog before he faded, or just picked up his projects in Post-Blackmoorian times, reintroducing races like the Gatormen, Caymen etc etc... Håvard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 19:23:48 +0000 From: Giampaolo Agosta Subject: Re: Traldar and their Immortals Havard Faanes wrote: > > [Orcus and Demogorgon] > >> I like this idea, though I'm not sure how to >> implement it. At a first thought, the two headed >> Demogorgon recalls to mind the Two Headed figure of >> Janus, from Roman myth. > > That is a possibility for sure. I remember Demogorgons > identity being discussed in a previous thread though, > but I cannot recall the results of that discussion. > There was at least one theory of Demogorgon being the > Frog, Personally, I think Demogorgon and Orcus should be quite ancient: IIRC, they were the major fiends in the older versions of Mystara. I'd like to have them both as pre-Blackmoorian, so I subscribe to the Demogorgon = The Frog idea. Personally, I think they were originally lesser fiends or other demonic creatures. If one used AD&D cosmology, they would be glorified demons. On Demogorgon / Janus: I don't see the connection, actually... Demogorgon is a power of evil, reptilian creatures, while the roman god was originally the god of doors/changes -- he would be a Time Immortal, if any. Some time ago, though, I concieved the idea of an immortal ID being actually two immortals, one for each side of the deity -- it wasn't Janus (it was a work I was doing with the Etruscan pantheon), and I don't remember the details right now (I'll check when I find the time). -- di nuovo come un tempo sopra l'Italia intera urla il vento e soffia la bufera ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 19:38:59 -0800 From: Rodger Burns Subject: Re: Immortals (was: Traldar & the Immortals) Havard Faanes wrote on December 02, 2003: > > My current theory is that most Immortals of any > interest these days are post Blackmoor Immortals. > > Håvard > Hmm. A thought - what if the Blackmoor disaster actually killed one or more of the Immortals? (Or did something else equally permanently nasty to them, like chucked them directly into the Vortex.) Certainly would help explain a few of the reasons for some of the Immortals' oldest customs. Immortals don't go to the Prime Plane - because if they do, another Blackmoor event might kill them! Ixion hates the Nucleus of the Spheres - because it's ultimately responsible for the deaths of several of his peers! And many of the younger Immortals don't even know about this themselves, because the elder Immortals don't want some maniac playing around with Blackmoor events as weapons. (Not even Hel or Thanatos. They're afraid that Alphaks might be entirely too *good* at it.) This could be fun... "The best lack all conviction, While the worst are full of passionate intensity." - W.B. Yeats, "The Second Coming" Rodger Burns ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 1 Dec 2003 to 2 Dec 2003 (#2003-282) **************************************************************