Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 18 Dec 2003 to 19 Dec 2003 (#2003-292) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 20/12/2003, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 9 messages totalling 307 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Mystara and Spelljammer (3) 2. Dwarves (3) 3. Mystara in Dragon (3) ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:33:19 -0500 From: Paul Westermeyer Subject: Mystara and Spelljammer I'm sure not everyone on the list likes Spelljammer, or mixing Mystara with it. But I thought some of you might have some thoughts about integrating Mystara into the larger Spelljammer multiverse. How do you do that? What about the differing physics in Mystara space, according to the Princess Ark series? -- "...How shall a man judge what to do in such times?!" "As he has ever judged," said Aragorn "Good and evil have not changed since yesteryear..." J.R.R. Tolkien, _The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers_ Paul Westermeyer, pwestermeyer@tampabay.rr.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:14:37 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Havard=20Faanes?= Subject: Re: Mystara and Spelljammer --- Paul Westermeyer skrev: > I'm sure not everyone on the list likes Spelljammer, > or mixing > Mystara with it. But I thought some of you might > have some thoughts > about integrating Mystara into the larger > Spelljammer multiverse. > How do you do that? What about the differing physics > in Mystara > space, according to the Princess Ark series? I think you should first decide, which setting to take preferance over which. Although I am more of a fan of Mystara rather than SpellJammer (SJ), I think that if you decide that you want to use SJ with Mystara, it would make mores sense of SJ takes the preferance, when it comes to contradictions between the settings. If so, Ignore the Mystara Milky Way and Princess Ark physics completely. Make Heldann Warbirds and Alphatian Airships regular spelljamming Vessels. The Immortals will have full power within their crystal sphere and the planes associated with it, but almost powerless outside it. Mystarans have not yet explored their own Solar System much, but once they become aware of other SJ civilizations, Mystara may quickly grow into a SJ power, considering their considerable potential when it comes to magical ability, existing ships etc etc. There are some other theories on how to do this on starflung. Cheers! Havard ______________________________________________________ Få den nye Yahoo! Messenger på http://no.messenger.yahoo.com/ Nye ikoner og bakgrunner, webkamera med superkvalitet og dobbelt så morsom ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:49:02 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?la=20Volpe?= Subject: Re: Dwarves Ok, then everything is ok.. I have my own theories about dwarves in the Five Shires etc. and I hope to share them soon. At least I'll start translating page after page... ...only for you, lucky Mystarans! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Err...sorry. 8-) Giulio ______________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail: 6MB di spazio gratuito, 30MB per i tuoi allegati, l'antivirus, il filtro Anti-spam http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:22:34 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Dwarves la Volpe wrote: 2) has anybody ever developed a list/timeline of dwarven kings? Only thing about them I can figure is this: 1800-1400 BC: Denwarf I 1400- ? BC: Everast I ?-?: 3rd Dwarven king ?-?: 4th Dwarven king ?-?: 5th Dwarven king ?-?: 6th Dwarven king ?-?: 7th Dwarven king ?-?: 8th Dwarven king ?-?: 9th Dwarven king ?-?: 10th Dwarven king ?-? (c.1000 BC): Blystar III - notes: His clan affiliation is not given. ?-98 BC: Bollo I - notes: Bollo is said to have driven this subjects to rebellion after "decades of excessive taxation and abuse"; probably ruled anywhere from 20 to 40 years, I'd guess. Bollo is a Torkrest. 98 - ? BC: Everast VII ?-? (c. 490 AC: Daroban V (Doric, son of Kuric) - notes: This name is derived from the book "Dragonlord of Mystara". Daroban is noted as being a Syrklist king. His second son, Korinn, is likely to succeed him as king. Daroban is ruler throughout the Dragon* series.) ?-? (c. 802 AC): Styrklint II - notes: Styrklint is a Syrklist king. ? - 960 AC: Everast XIV (Bofin) 960 - 1011 AC: Everast XV (Bifin, son of Bofin) 1011 - Present AC: Everast XVI (Bofin, son of Bifin) All of the above, with the exception of the Daroban information, is from Gaz6. 3) any information regarding the dwarven invasion of the five shires? when did this event take place? > From Gaz8: The Five Shires: 938 BC: The Fall of Hindon; orcs burn the Elderhall. The Dark Years begin. Dwarves and orcs fight for control of the halfling land. 936 BC: Bloody Sands (famous orc/dwarf battle) 934 BC: Fireaxe Field (famous orc/dwarf battle) 932 BC: Hill of Cold Teeth (famous orc/dwarf battle) 929 BC: Dwarven rule begins. Loktal Ironshield crowned King of the Glittering Land. Hin enslaved. Dwarven kingdom grows rich, attracting orc and human invasions that weaken the dwarves. 912 BC: The Second Rising. Loktal defeats orcs at Brokenfang Falls and rushes north to repel gnoll invaders, but is too weak to withstand a hin revolt. Halflings found the realm of Shaerdon, ruled by a Council of hin clan Lords. Note that Loktal Ironshield was in all likelihood not sanctioned or supported by the dwarves of Rockhome. The dwarves that came to the Shires (then Hindon) were looters and plunderers and miners, lured by stories of the rich mineral deposits there. It is noted that "the more evil among them took careful note of the realm's failing military strength." I expect that Loktal was probably at worst considered a criminal and outcast among his people, and at best his "kingdom" was just ignored by the dwarves of Rockhome and the rest of the outside world. 4) any information about the Kildarkok dwarves thatsettled in Norwold, apart from those in CM1 ? Not that I can tell. The name "Kildorkak" was invented by someone on the Almanac staff (I think it was Marco Dalmonte, but I'm not sure). I was going to expand on them at some point, but never got around to it. The main thrust of my "expansion" was based on the idea of trying to make the name "Kildorkak" relate to the name of the stronghold of the dwarves (Stormhaven, from CM1). I think I figured the dwarvish name for it was something like Kil-Dor-Rak, meaning: Dor= impressive, wondrous (Gaz6) Rak= Citadel, castle, fortress (Gaz6) Kil= Fiery, flashy (from the "KL" part of Klint and Klist from Gaz6) Either that, or Kuld-Dor-Rak (Kuld meaning north in Gaz6). Kuld-Dor-Rak would just mean "Big northern castle" which doesn't explain why it's called Stormhaven. While Kil-Dor-Rak I think the intent was to make the "fiery, impressive" part refer to the northern lights, which humans mistranslated as Storm. Anyway, that's where I was going with all that. Also, I've been working a lot more on my Filwarf dwarves of the Isle of Dawn recently, and hope to post some more detailed information about them and their history soon, but for a look into what I'm planning, you might want to check out what info I've got on them on the "Twilight of the Dawn" website. (http://www.geocities.com/isledawn) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:51:03 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Dwarves Giampaolo Agosta wrote: >2) The great gnoll migration, from Nithia west to Darokin, then to > Broken Lands, Plains of Fire and Traldar lands. > Orcs control the Five Shires from 1000 BC to an unspecified time, then > from 801 BC to 744 BC, and are finally expelled in 601 BC. I expanded upon this in another response to this thread, but I'll clarify some of this just for the sake of things (some of the specifics don't turn up in Daniel Boese's comprehensive timeline): The orcs invade Faerdinel in 1000 BC and found the realm of Othrong. It is suggested that they may have been displaced by the gnollish migrations to the east. In 965-964 BC, the hin overthrow the orcish king Raurgh's rule in several battles. Hinskulls (965), Orcfall (965), and the Spring Slaughter (964). The hin then establish the kingdom of Hindon and the rule of the Elders in 964. The orcs invade again in 938, as do humans and dwarves. It is not long afterwards that the dwarves take over rule of the land. When the dwarves are overthrown, the realm of Shaerdon is founded, and the halflings live there until Clanstrife erupts between them in 811 BC. Over the course of the next several years, there is much infighting, which prompts another orcish invasion (taking advantage of their weakness) in 806 AC. By 801 AC, the orcs have taken over once more. The orcs rule from 801-744 or thereabouts. Given the timeframe, I imagine the second orcish invasion (c. 806 AC) came from the west this time, and consisted largely of Red Orcs from the Atruaghin region, whereas the first invasion came from the east (Traladara) and probably was mostly "common" orcs. I've also postulated before that the Immortal orc Karaash probably was one of the orcish warlords who ruled in the Shire territory during one of these times. From the descriptions of the leaders, it was probably Othrong, who allegedly died happy of overeating. > Now, IMO the occupation of the Shires by the dwarves can only happen as > a retaliation against the goblinoids after the invasion of 1000BC. At the time of the invasion, the kingdom of Hindon is ruled only by the halflings, and it is one that is beset by bandits and pillagers all intent on plundering the riches of the small folk. I think your explanation helps to explain why the dwarves were present in numbers so large, though, as a few scattered bands of explorers, miners, and looters wouldn't be enough to form an army. I expect that the dwarves first came to Hindon for the reasons described- lured by the promise of mineral wealth- and when they discovered that the orcs were beginning to muster in large numbers, increasingly larger bands of dwarvish soldiers were sent for the reasons you describe- to curb a perceived threat. Unfortunately, some greedier heads prevailed (such as Loktal Ironshield) and rogue elements among the dwarves took over the land for their own ill-conceived gains. > When the orcs reconquer the Shires in 801, they're probably retaking it > from the dwarves. The "bandits" mentioned might be northern Traldar, > fleeing from the gnoll invasions. As noted above, the dwarves had already been expelled by this point. The reconquering orcs were (IMO) probably Red Orcs from the west, rather than the east. As to the bandits, I imagine that they could be all sorts. Disreputable Traldar criminals, displaced Traldar, greedy and ambitious Traldar "conquerors", aggressive Traldar warlords seeking either 1) new lands, or 2) to stave off future invasions from outsiders by taking a proactive aggressive stance. There might also be displaced Atruaghin settlers (the Red Orcs were in control of those lands around this time) as well as people from the lands that would become Darokin (the Red Orc influence probably extended well eastwards from Atruaghin, and I don't recall offhand what else was going on over in those lands at the time). Possibly Nithian slavers and the like as well. > In order to gain the hin's hate, the dwarves must have kept the Shires > for a longer time than any human bandit -- I'd guess at least a century, > right before the orcish invasion of 801 BC. According to Gaz8, they held the land for less than 30 years, though dwarvish raiders continued to plague the land for centuries. My question is why don't halflings get a racial bonus to combat against orcs like dwarves do, given their history... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:54:36 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Mystara in Dragon Anyone picked up the latest Dragon magazine yet? There's several articles in it, one on the Hollow World (describing the Ka Tainted template and Atzanteotl), one on Blackmoor (with a prestige class for Halflings), one on the Red Steel lands (with feats and such for the Red Curse, though from what I saw, I didn't like the mechanics of it), and one on Cynidicea. From what I saw of Zargon, that's one tough little beasty! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:08:32 -0800 From: John Calvin Subject: Mystara and Spelljammer >> I'm sure not everyone on the list likes Spelljammer, or mixing Mystara with it. But I thought some of you might have some thoughts about integrating Mystara into the larger Spelljammer multiverse. How do you do that? What about the differing physics in Mystara space, according to the Princess Ark series? << I've always liked the SJ physics system, and use that for stellar travel. I rule that once close to a large gravity well (such as those created by a planet) that SJ speeds go away and the normal airship speeds (ala CoM) come into play. As for integrating Mystara into the larger SJ universe, I do so "loosely". I don't tie in the MystaraSpace crystal sphere with the other "Big Three". I've developed a Mystaraspace SJ campaign of sorts built around the idea of Immortals expelling various cultures from Mystara throughout time. First the Carnifex, then the Blackmoorians, and finally the Nithians. I don't know if I've ever posted it here, but if anyone is interested I can send some info to the list. -John Rule #85. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button." from "A Guide to Becoming an Evil Overlord" by Peter Anspach --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:31:38 -0500 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Mystara in Dragon I haven't seen it yet. Could you give some more info or description of what the Ka Tainted is, and further details on Atzanteotl? This could well be relevant to part of my campaign, and if so, I'll definitely pick up a copy. Thanks, Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Theisen" To: Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 11:54 AM Subject: [MYSTARA] Mystara in Dragon > Anyone picked up the latest Dragon magazine yet? There's several articles in it, one on the Hollow World (describing the Ka Tainted template and Atzanteotl), one on Blackmoor (with a prestige class for Halflings), one on the Red Steel lands (with feats and such for the Red Curse, though from what I saw, I didn't like the mechanics of it), and one on Cynidicea. From what I saw of Zargon, that's one tough little beasty! > > ******************************************************************** > The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp > The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ > To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM > with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:08:50 -0800 From: Andrew Theisen Subject: Re: Mystara in Dragon Dan Eustace wrote: I haven't seen it yet. Could you give some more info or description of what the Ka Tainted is, and further details on Atzanteotl? This could well be relevant to part of my campaign, and if so, I'll definitely pick up a copy. I only just flipped through it in the store myself (my copy won't arrive until the end of the month). From what I can tell, the Ka Tainted are men and women who have undergone a ceremony that gives them some abilities like those of dinosaurs. Given that Atzanteotl is explicitly mentioned in the article (and has a brief writeup of his power level, domains, and such, like the deities in the PHB), I gather that he somehow tricked/manipulated/coerced the worshippers of Ka into undergoing this ceremony, which gives them powers but makes them more monstrous and gives them evil tendencies. Something like that, anyway (I think). There are also several new feats given that can be taken by Ka Tainted characters (possibly others as well) and I think a brief description of the Hollow World and its effects is given as well. I won't be positive until I get my copy, but as soon as I do, I'll let you all know more (if more hasn't been posted by then). ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 18 Dec 2003 to 19 Dec 2003 (#2003-292) ****************************************************************