Subject: MYSTARA-L Digest - 16 Feb 2003 to 17 Feb 2003 (#2003-49) From: Automatic digest processor Date: 18/02/2003, 19:00 To: Recipients of MYSTARA-L digests Reply-to: Mystara RPG Discussion There are 8 messages totalling 492 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Economic collapse (7) 2. A Great Campaign ******************************************************************** The Other Worlds Homepage: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/OtherWorlds.asp The Mystara Homepage: http://www.dnd.starflung.com/ To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM with UNSUB MYSTARA-L in the body of the message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:56:23 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ville_V_L=E4hde?= Subject: Economic collapse Hello, I'm currently working on the economics of Darokin after the Nomad War IMC. Darokin's economy is exceptional in Mystara in the sense that a lot of transactions are based on virtual currency, basically paper money signed by the Houses and approved by the Merchants' Guild. This paper money originated as debt contracts, but as there is so much economic activity in Darokin, these "checks" have separated from the individual transactions and become a separate currency. It is plausible that checks of the most respectable houses would be accepted as money in many Known World countries. Still, since these checks are counted using the daro as a basis, they are tied to the official state currency. The daro (as any currency in the Known World) is gold-based, but the virtual element in the economy somewhat diminishes the stability offered by the gold base. Mystara was never very economic-centered game, although there are a lot of trading nations and sophisticated game mechanics for handling trade. For one, the currencies are pretty stable, there are no great differences of value between "gold pieces" of various countries. Changing crona to lucin and to daro etc. has some inherent expenses of course, but not much dirrerent than the present exchange commissions. So one has to assume that the gold-percentage in the coins is pretty much equal (with some notable exceptions of "bigger coins", and the collectors' value of Alfheim coing). Until "now" (1000 AC) there seems to have been no notable instances of inflation, a problem that plaqued the Romans in RW. Thyatian Lucin hasn't been "diluted" as badly as sesterti were on many occasions. This is of course up to any DM, who can of course create systems for fluctiating currencies in her/his Known World. The official material hasn't just put much weight on economics. No to the war: IMC Darokin suffered a lot during the war. Akorros and Akesoli were devastated. Many Houses lost a lot of assets (two of them were practically wiped out), as others grew richer. The Guildhall treasury, which must function as a security deposit for the checks in circulation, was burgled. One must assume that the Darokin guild council also minted new coins to support the war effort. After the war this has a dual effect: 1) Hundreds of checks have lost their value since a) the House which printed them lost the assets with which to back them up and b) the Guild isn't able to back up so much virtual money as before. This will disrupt the economy directly due to loss of funds and indirectly due to the loss of trust in the Darokin economy 2) Minting of new coins, most likely diluted ones, will catalyse inflation, further weakening the economy. People may start shunning the daros. Bartering will increase. 3) ALSO: A lot of valuables were hidden during the war, and after their owners dying or sent to slavery, these assets are now off the picture. I'm now thinking about what the council would do about this situation? The stupid solution would be to continue minting new coins to supplement the losses. This would of course sink the economy further (the Romans fell for this one at first). The more clever solution might be to announce a governmental edict to withdraw the present coinage and to replace it with a fresh new one. (later on the Romans tried this). But still the new coinage would need backing. Prices would also need to be frozen for a while for this to work. If/when the information of this latter solution would leak out, a lot of people would amass fortunes by buying land and such with their soon to be defunct coins. (Since the government would no doubt announce an exchange ratio between the old and the new coinage, which would mean some loss of nominal value.) This would eventually cause unrest and bitterness. Are there any students of economics or history who could correct the mistakes I may have made, and give me some more ideas here. How would this affect the other economies of the Known World? Another idea: How about trying to create an economic overall scenario for the WotI-campaign? I've never played it, but it seems many such changes might be in order. Ville ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 16:03:06 -0500 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Economic collapse > I'm now thinking about what the council would do about this situation? The > stupid solution would be to continue minting new coins to supplement the > losses. This would of course sink the economy further (the Romans fell for > this one at first). The more clever solution might be to announce a > governmental edict to withdraw the present coinage and to replace it with > a fresh new one. (later on the Romans tried this). But still the new > coinage would need backing. Prices would also need to be frozen for a > while for this to work. Darokinian CLoCs would would be rendered worthless. The gov't would have a huge war debt, the need to rebuild ruined cities, and would not have sufficient resources to do so. No one of right mind would trust that a cloc would lead to actual payment. If the meteor also hit, and the SE's took over Alfheim, this makes a bad situation a catostrophy. Demand for trade goods would fall, which would lead to less available work, and less money. Spending of excess coin, if any would slow or cease, as would the availabilty of money for loans. Anyone with excess coin would hide it away, taking it out of circulation. The ordinary gov't response, would be to increase the money supply, leading to hyper-inflation. Reducing the effective value of a Daro to a cp or less would be likely, but this would take some time. If agriculture is also ruined from the meteor, than Darokin is really in dire straits and ripe for conquest by a foreign power, else it could enter a sort of "dark age." This is esp. true if the orcs of Thar are still holding the crater. I don't think the rapid recovery by any of the nations as written in the PWA's is realistic after a war of this magnitude. The resulting Depression could last for decades. Nearby econonies would also be devastated. Thyatis was nearly conquered, and must exert considerable effort (including lots of money) to retake it's lost territories and repair damages. Alphatia is gone, leaving a huge economic vacuum. How much trade did they account for as the most populous nation in the area? This would affect Minrothad, esp. Glantri would be in rough shape. Alfheim is also gone, and trade with the SE's would not happen overnight. The Ylari would have no market for any luxury goods. The NR would seem to be affected the least. Karameikos and the Shires would seem to be in the strongest economic position, but their economies could still very well fall into a recession. Rockhome would probably be OK, too, but dwarven exporters would find limited buyers. > Are there any students of economics or history who could correct the > mistakes I may have made, and give me some more ideas here. How would this > affect the other economies of the Known World? I'm no economist, but in WotI, there were few if any spoils for the victor to take to bolster their economy and pay off war debt. The orcs took alot of Darokinian and Glantrian wealth. Heldann may have taken some of this back. The Master's forces fled, and some of their booty may have been recoverable. But with all of Alphatia sunk ito the ocean, there isn't much left except pain and suffering. If Thyatis/Glantri were actually able to take the Alpher mainland, and make use of the Alphatian wealth, than rebuilding and economic prosperity would return much quicker. Check out this link, it has alot of interseting stuff about money: http://money.howstuffworks.com/ Goto "Browse the Money Library", then "How Recessions Work." The links at the end of that section may also be useful, esp. on the U.S. Great Depression. Also goto "Short Stuff", "All the money in the world..."(at the bottom of the page), and then to the "History of Money." There is a whole article here on "Warfare and Financial History" that is quite interesting. Let me know what you come up with. IMC we're also going thru WotI, so the economic repercussions are of interest to me, as well. Later, man. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:54:23 +0000 From: adrian mattias Subject: Re: Economic collapse In the ancient RW, three principal economic strategies were followed by empires. Commerce, Conquest, Family Multiplication (ie. expansion into new territory). In the crowded Known World, the last of those three is definitely out. Undoubtedly Darokin is following the Commerce strategy. If you were to apply reality to the situation, a trading country the size of Darokin would have already wiped out the Minrothad Guilds and would have trading posts dotted all over the place (how else do you make sure you obtain the monopoly profits from dominating trading routes). As examples of the way in which RW great trading empires operated, look at Venice between 1300-1600, the United Kingdom between 1500-1800, and Carthage between 600-250BC. All three were not so concerned with maximising the land they controlled (as a conquest empire like the Aztecs, Mayans, or Rome would be) but merely controlling the strategic trading posts, and eliminating trading rivals. So to get to the point, I agree that Darokin would be in danger of severe economic depression following the war with the Master, and associated catastrophes. So what should they do? As you and Dan have both pointed out (more clearly than most economists could manage), minting more money or replacing the coinage would only enhance the depression by creating hyperinflation. The only solution to the situation that Darokin finds itself in is to increase economic growth by bringing in foreign wealth. There are two ways to do this - either by improving their commerce prospects, or by switching to the conquest strategy. The latter would be almost impossible (as Carthage proved when it was faced by a hostile Roman war machine - Carthage tried to change its economy to a conquest one by changing its institutions and governance from control by merchants to control by the military elite - but it was exterminated by Rome before having the chance to succeed), and in Darokin's case, it is surrounded by relatively strong military states, so expansion would be likely to fail. The only hope Darokin has for saving its economy would be to aggressively try to monopolise trade. This would mean taking strategic trading posts by force (such as those at the neck of the Serpent Peninsula) eliminating competing commerce nations such as the Minrothad Guilds, forging new trade routes to new markets (land based trade routes could be struck perhaps to Wendar, Heldann, Northern Reaches etc). The opportunities for land based trade are pretty slim (no trading to the west for example as Hule would prevent that). Darokin's salvation may well be in sea based trade. Hule has a miniscule navy - if Darokin knocked this out, it could open up trade routes to Davania, to the Savage Coast and beyond. This would require Darokin to build up a strong navy. This would cost a lot of money, but would create employment for many citizens which would create a temporary economic boost. The cost of the navy would have to be recouped quickly to avoid negative economic consequences, but eliminating the Guilds and monopolising trade routes to the relatively untapped Savage Coast and Davania would see tonnes of gold and other goods pouring into Darokin which would, in a relatively short space of time, make it the most powerful country in the Known World. Of course, this would require some small departures from the Woti and PWA events (although more like additions than a complete rewriting - so it could be done pretty smoothly). If you want economic realism in Mystara - this could be a good way to go ... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Instant Messenger now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_messenger.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 20:06:03 -0500 From: Dan Eustace Subject: Re: Economic collapse > As you and Dan have both pointed out (more clearly than most economists > could manage), minting more money or replacing the coinage would only > enhance the depression by creating hyperinflation. The only solution to the > situation that Darokin finds itself in is to increase economic growth by > bringing in foreign wealth. There are two ways to do this - either by > improving their commerce prospects, or by switching to the conquest > strategy. > > The latter would be almost impossible (as Carthage proved when it was faced > by a hostile Roman war machine - Carthage tried to change its economy to a > conquest one by changing its institutions and governance from control by > merchants to control by the military elite - but it was exterminated by Rome > before having the chance to succeed), and in Darokin's case, it is > surrounded by relatively strong military states, so expansion would be > likely to fail. Very good points, esp. w. Darokin's military being in pretty sad shape after the war. > The only hope Darokin has for saving its economy would be to aggressively > try to monopolise trade. This would mean taking strategic trading posts by > force (such as those at the neck of the Serpent Peninsula) eliminating > competing commerce nations such as the Minrothad Guilds, forging new trade > routes to new markets (land based trade routes could be struck perhaps to > Wendar, Heldann, Northern Reaches etc). Would Darokin's military have the wherewithal to accomplish this? A band of commandos (i.e. adventurers) would seem to be a better bet. But the mission may need to be done out of patriotosm/heroism, depending on how bad the situation in Darokin is. If the currency is devalued and the gov't is strapped for cash they will have to rely on credit (in other words, a promise to be paid later), to finance this mission. > The opportunities for land based trade are pretty slim (no trading to the > west for example as Hule would prevent that). Darokin's salvation may well > be in sea based trade. Hule has a miniscule navy - if Darokin knocked this > out, it could open up trade routes to Davania, to the Savage Coast and > beyond. This would require Darokin to build up a strong navy. This would > cost a lot of money, but would create employment for many citizens which > would create a temporary economic boost. The cost of the navy would have to > be recouped quickly to avoid negative economic consequences, but eliminating > the Guilds and monopolising trade routes to the relatively untapped Savage > Coast and Davania would see tonnes of gold and other goods pouring into > Darokin which would, in a relatively short space of time, make it the most > powerful country in the Known World. But would Minrothad allow this, having a monopoly on sea trade? They would use their privateers to (literally) sink the competition. With such a dominant sea force, Minrothad has little to fear from Darokin, since it is highly unlikely that a viable invasion force could be assembled. I would tend to see the opposite as more likely - that Minrothad, Ylaruam, Karameikos, and Thyatis would try to capitalize on Darokin's weakened position to capture part of the lucrative overland trade. But with depressed economies all around, it may be a few years before this could occur. If the situation in Darokin was that bleak, other nations, such as Minrothad and Karmeikos, could lure Darokinian traders to run businesses for them, since their coin would be worth much more than the Daro. Those nations would have money to invest, while Darokin would be loath to spend in such a fashion. Suppose they did try for a navy and it was lost in a storm or due to inexperienced seamen. The gov't would be overthrown! There are many possibilities, here, since there are countless factors at work which could influence events one way or the other. Darokin could borrow money from foreign sources, but that could also get them into trouble. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:51:59 -0300 From: JJJ Subject: A Great Campaign As most people here plays OD&D (from White Box to RC) maybe you can help me out with this idea. As we read Chainmail, OD&D, then the Boxes, and finally RC (+gazzeters) we see that many rules have evolved and changed. In OD&D this is fairly dramatic, as we go from an "every weapon does 1d6" to Sup. I were they have different stats. Eventually the game evolved to AD&D 1st ed. and another branch of TSR (Franz Mentzer, Aaron...) continued with D&D. My point is: what about a grand campaign which tells the history of its world at the same time as the rules evolve? The task is tu fully utilize the contents of each book to the fullest (every item, magic, monster) and change the rules as the world changes; Like this (using Mystara as an example): - In the eras pré Blackmoor, when the tribes were migrating, the players have no characters yet, and play the roles of generals in the wars for land and conquest that ravaged this world. These battles make the future lay out for the migrations and put the players in contac with the cultures taht will evolve to be their true main characters; - Eventually some of the tribes settled, and the first explorers began to see the land and its dangers. Weapons were crude (all 1d6 dmg), and as there were no big cities, only Fighters, Clerics and beggining Magic-Users existed. The demihuman races explored little, keeping to themselves (the very low level limits explanation); Dangerous caves hid treausures of unknown origin, the first gods were appearing, as well as the first monsters; - The future, the PCs may play with the grandsons of the first explorers from above, but now big cities have dotted the countryside, and with them a new class: the thiefs. Also, there began to appear the first people to fight for the cause of humanity as a whole: Paladins. Weapons take on a new light as the monsters and the people baceme stronger (all those Hps new rules); - The rise of Blackmoor, underwater adventures (Sea Kingdom), fall of Balckmoor, (Psionics?), the Gods....etc.... Eventually we reach 1000 AC or before and it is time for the DM to choose: shall i continue with RC etc, or go to AD&D 1st ed.; I myself decide likewise: If the prehistoric battles formed a world more like greyhawk, Balckmoor and Ten would became Tehn, etc.. and follow the rules to AD&D 1st ed, otherwise stick to wondrous Mystara and RC rules. I understand this is quite a big job and acomplishment to make, with the need for solid and dedicated players, aside from an very hardworking DM. But the benefits: Greater understanding of the games evolution, the rules, the history of the world, roleplaying depth (imagine playing with a character of which you really know the nations history and formation as the back of your hand!!!). Comments? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 01:54:55 +0000 From: adrian mattias Subject: Re: Economic collapse > From: Dan Eustace > But would Minrothad allow this, having a monopoly on sea trade? Certainly not. But then Darokin would have to "convince" them. > They would use their privateers to (literally) sink the competition. >With > such a dominant sea force, Minrothad has little to fear from Darokin, since > it is highly unlikely that a viable invasion force >could be assembled. You are quite possibly correct on this one. Although if you consider the Rome/Carthage situation - Rome did not have much of a navy either before the Punic Wars. But with the threat from Carthage being a seaborne one, in a handful of years they built a navy that was not only more numerous than the mighty Carthaginian navy, but also qualitatively better. A similar thing might happen with Darokin - it is all a matter of how much money they are prepared/can afford to sink into building and equipping a strong navy and how important they view the control of sea-based trade to their economic revival. Any sea conflict between Minrothad and Darokin could go on for some time (maybe decades until one or the other is successful) with raids on each others' ports by adventurers or privateers, sabotage, piracy, open conflict on the high seas, capture of each others' trading posts etc. > If the situation in Darokin was that bleak, other nations, such as > Minrothad and Karmeikos, could lure Darokinian traders to run >businesses > for them. Karameikos may well do so - but would the Darokinian merchants go there? Karameikos is not a major trading nation and so the opportunity for profits would be slim. As direct commercial rivals, I don't think that Minrothad would want any Darokinains controlling their trading businesses - unless perhaps they brought their wealth with them (and converted their citizenship). > nations would have money to invest, while Darokin would be loath to >spend > in such a fashion. Suppose they did try for a navy and it was >lost in a > storm > or due to inexperienced seamen. The gov't would be overthrown! Good point. If they did try this option, then they had better get it right! _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_mobile.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 00:18:25 -0500 From: Christopher M Cherrington Subject: Re: Economic collapse > Behalf Of Dan Eustace > > > take some time. If agriculture is also ruined from the meteor, > than Darokin > is really in dire straits and ripe for conquest by a foreign > power, else it > could enter a sort of "dark age." This is esp. true if the orcs > of Thar are > still holding the crater. I don't think the rapid recovery by any of the > nations as written in the PWA's is realistic after a war of this > magnitude. > The resulting Depression could last for decades. > Not to mention the less scrupulous merchants that would turn tail and start all over in a newer market, with Thyatian backing or Heldannic Guilders. Darokin realistically would become a huge foreign investment, existing houses would be the perfect employees of foreign investors looking to take advantage of Darokin's demise. Of-course this does not happen, making a good story of just how powerful Darokin merchants really are. Most of their trade was with foreign investments to begin with, if the surrounding countries had a vested interest with the Streel Bank with CLOCS, these neighbors will surely want Darokin to come back and will pour more money into the coffers to try to get their initial investments back. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 00:27:31 -0500 From: Christopher M Cherrington Subject: Re: Economic collapse Some good hooks on the collapse would be for merchants to create new trade routes from the destruction, thus changing the guilds power in certain regions. I am quite sure the borders will be occupied for a while longer as most investment for repair would be in the capital and Selenica. Hmm.. what accidents might happen to the poor merchants who underestimate the pre-wrath feelings of undermining previous trade routes. It would not be hard to hire bandits to make sure your trade caravans get through, while others don't. ------------------------------ End of MYSTARA-L Digest - 16 Feb 2003 to 17 Feb 2003 (#2003-49) ***************************************************************